Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Dusk Pit]

Cloud is probably overrated. Shulk and Corrin have big swords and good frame data too.

 

[BunbUn129]

Cloud is probably overrated. Shulk and Corrin have big swords and good frame data too.

They have neither the mobility nor something as good as Limit Break. Corrin has shorter range, and we all know Shulk doesn't have the best frame data.

 

[TDK]

Cloud is probably overrated. Shulk and Corrin have big swords and good frame data too.

If you made a tier list taking into account frame data Shulk would be bottom 3. the only moves he has that come out before frame 10 are Jab and grab.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Last I heard his grounded moves weren't safe unless spaced immaculately... Likewise I don't see a lot of combos out of him.

IDK, I just think 99% of Cloud's kit is overrated as heck and that happens because SSB4 players don't get how to handle swordfighters.

Cloud's Uair now with interpolation.

Spoiler

You're welcome.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Shulk's cooldowns and landing lags are actually pretty good and since he likes to use aerials and tilts, I wouldn't say his "bad" frame data hurt him too much.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I personally feel the main things in Cloud's kit that are overtuned are the active frames of a lot of his moves, limit, and his initial dash. That being said, I fell a lot of people over exaggerate his strengths and presence in the metagame. The notion that his exsistence invalidates every other sword fighter in the game still baffles me to this day.

 

[Dre89]

Maybe it's just me, but it's starting to seem like "sword fighter" is becoming as meaningless a term under which to group characters as "fist fighter". In theory, they're supposed to be threaded together by mid-ranged disjoints with few active frames, but that definition doesn't really apply to like half of them. Some have projectiles and some don't, some have grab games and some don't, some are agile and some are Shulk. I'm just nitpicking here, but if you remove yourself from the visuals a bit, there really isn't that much making, say, Cloud more similar to Meta Knight than to Mario or something.

(Also, on a slightly hypocritical bent, stop excluding Robin from swordfighter discussions, he gets lonely ;_

Swordfighter was an actual class until Cloud and to a lesser extent Corrin came and just took all the strengths of the class but by-passed the weaknesses associated with it. This is precisely why people complain about their designs.

Swordfighters have traditionally had a ranged disjoint. This is normally balanced out by poor mobility and frame data. Prior to the DLC, every long-ranged swordfighter had worse fame data and mobility than most characters that aren't a projectile zoner or a heavy.

Roy and MK, who are relatively mobile, are balanced out by having lower effective range. Toon Link is mobile and technically has very long range when you factor in projectiles. So he's balanced out by havig heavyweigt frame data (literally worse than DK's and equivalent to Bowser's), which is obviously very poor for someone of his weight and short melee range.

But then Cloud came and was given massive range on top of excellent mobility and above average frame data. On top of that he was also given a projectile and a buff mechanic that has three separate ways of charging. His only weakness is a recovery that is bad only some of the time.

Corrin isn't as bad as Cloud, but his frame data is still very good relative to his range. His reward is also very high on a lot of his options relative to how safe they are. I also don't get why they gave him a projectile when he already has long range.

"Toon Link can do nothing to me if I shield all the time."

I find it funny that people say that because I get way more grabs as Tink than as other characters. Dash grabbing landings is really free when you have a tether grab and your kit forces people to commit to approaches.

 

[Dusk Pit]

I think Cloud is fine as is. Limit requires a read and it doesn't even kill absurdly early. Also losing his limit means he loses ability to recover so it's kinda high risk high reward move. Actually, I find true shoryuken way more stupid than limit. Now if only they got rid of that confirm and did something to Bayonetta, I would be really happy with the game's balance.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Swordfighter was an actual class until Cloud and to a lesser extent Corrin came and just took all the strengths of the class but by-passed the weaknesses associated with it. This is precisely why people complain about their designs.

Swordfighters have traditionally had a ranged disjoint. This is normally balanced out by poor mobility and frame data. Prior to the DLC, every long-ranged swordfighter had worse fame data and mobility than most characters that aren't a projectile zoner or a heavy.

Roy and MK, who are relatively mobile, are balanced out by having lower effective range. Toon Link is mobile and technically has very long range when you factor in projectiles. So he's balanced out by havig heavyweigt frame data (literally worse than DK's and equivalent to Bowser's), which is obviously very poor for someone of his weight and short melee range.

But then Cloud came and was given massive range on top of excellent mobility and above average frame data. On top of that he was also given a projectile and a buff mechanic that has three separate ways of charging. His only weakness is a recovery that is bad only some of the time.

Corrin isn't as bad as Cloud, but his frame data is still very good relative to his range. His reward is also very high on a lot of his options relative to how safe they are. I also don't get why they gave him a projectile when he already has long range.




I find it funny that people say that because I get way more grabs as Tink than as other characters. Dash grabbing landings is really free when you have a tether grab and your kit forces people to commit to approaches.

Umm. This just looks like people got mad about cloud and corrin because they came out as actual strong and rewarding sword fighters instead of the irrelevant mess that was every sword fighter except Ike and MK. They're still sword fighters and it's still a class (you just need a active disjoint on majority of your moves), but now it has members who are actually top tier and high tier now (Ike and MK are there too, didn't forget about them).

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I think Cloud is fine as is. Limit requires a read and it doesn't even kill absurdly early. Also losing his limit means he loses ability to recover so it's kinda high risk high reward move. Actually, I find true shoryuken way more stupid than limit. Now if only they got rid of that confirm and did something to Bayonetta, I would be really happy with the game's balance.

Please stop

 

[BunbUn129]

The problem isn't Cloud or Corrin; the problem is that out of the sword characters, only one was dominant () and others were relevant but not very common (). In the initial release, all sword characters aside from Tink and the Pits ranged from meh to terrible.


People complain about Cloud and Corrin making things unfair because sword characters have sucked in this game, and there was no top-tier sword character beforehand ( is more of a brawler than an actual sword fighter).

Cloud doesn't invalidate all of the sword characters, and the ones he invalidates are invalidated more by their own flaws ().

finally gave us what we wanted from Marth: a mobile swordsman who could outspace his opponents with wide swings.

 

[Nobie]

Cloud's Uair now with interpolation.

Spoiler

You're welcome.

So it's best if you can attack Cloud from the handle side, where the disjoint isn't as large?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think Cloud is fine as is. Limit requires a read and it doesn't even kill absurdly early. Also losing his limit means he loses ability to recover so it's kinda high risk high reward move. Actually, I find true shoryuken way more stupid than limit. Now if only they got rid of that confirm and did something to Bayonetta, I would be really happy with the game's balance.

Grounded Finishing Touch kills most of the cast at the 70% mark and Limit Break Cross Slash kills at the edge starting at 60% (and can easily be used to edgeguard to boot). Limit Break isn't that high risk either because, aside from Finishing Touch, they're hard to punish upon whiffing or shielding plus it doesn't take much for Cloud to recharge it since it's a combination of him charging it, the damage he takes, and the damage he dishes out. This said, even an average Cloud is probably going to get 2-3 Limit Breaks in a single stock. Also, as we've become painfully aware of at this point, Cloud's offstage problems all but evaporate if he chooses the right stages. Ban FD, counterpick Smashville/Town and City, and he's pretty much golden because platforms allow him to camp/run away and charge limit.

 

[TriTails]

The problem isn't Cloud or Corrin; the problem is that out of the sword characters, only one was dominant () and others were relevant but not very common (). In the initial release, all sword characters aside from Tink and the Pits ranged from meh to terrible.


People complain about Cloud and Corrin making things unfair because sword characters have sucked in this game, and there was no top-tier sword character beforehand ( is more of a brawler than an actual sword fighter).

'People put Link in low tier, making things unfair for the elf because according to the official tier lists he sucked in 3 consecutive games'.

So it's best if you can attack Cloud from the handle side, where the disjoint isn't as large?

With a hitbox like that, I don't think it's wise to challenge it.

But decent enough disjoints should be able to hit Cloud from behind or below.

The ****ing hitbox tho.

 

[BunbUn129]

'People put Link in low tier, making things unfair for the elf because according to the official tier lists he sucked in 3 consecutive games'.

Isn't that true about Zelda as well? Actually what is it with Zelda characters being either amazing or terrible?

 

[sedrf]

That would be like saying Rosalina invalidated other campy characters

 

[HeavyLobster]

If you made a tier list taking into account frame data Shulk would be bottom 3. the only moves he has that come out before frame 10 are Jab and grab.

I think he's dead last on his normals if you don't average Ganondorf's frame 81 Utilt into his frame data.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Please stop

Eh?

Grounded Finishing Touch kills most of the cast at the 70% mark and Limit Break Cross Slash kills at the edge starting at 60% (and can easily be used to edgeguard to boot). Limit Break isn't that high risk either because, aside from Finishing Touch, they're hard to punish upon whiffing or shielding plus it doesn't take much for Cloud to recharge it since it's a combination of him charging it, the damage he takes, and the damage he dishes out. This said, even an average Cloud is probably going to get 2-3 Limit Breaks in a single stock. Also, as we've become painfully aware of at this point, Cloud's offstage problems all but evaporate if he chooses the right stages. Ban FD, counterpick Smashville/Town and City, and he's pretty much golden because platforms allow him to camp/run away and charge limit.

Yes DPit's electroshock arm can kill early at the edge too. Anywhere else limit cross slash can be survived up to 100% with correct DI and again, it requires a read to land one. Fail to connect it and your lack of recovery might have cost a stock if sent off stage. Cloud can't do much against shields.

 

[Smog Frog]

lol you dont need a read to connect with limit cross slash

you can use it to edgeguard(it's the best in the game at catching the 2 frame), you can whiff punish with it, you can catch landings with it

also it's basically a guaranteed kill past 80% anywhere on the stage because it's kbg is so damn high. and the places it's most likely to be used(offstage to edgeguard, covering ledge options) are near the edge and it'll kill early.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's also pretty safe on shields. Plus it has such low recovery that whiffing it offstage usually isn't an issue.

Smooth Criminal

 

[AnEventHorizon]

View attachment 102580

What was that about misinformation?

Now this is probably because Ike's hurt box is a bit bigger, but their range is still about the same. Ike does not outrange Shulk, that is misinformation.

I'll give you the Ftilt range though, admittedly I was having a bit of trouble testing that correctly earlier. Should've stated that in my earlier post, sorry about that.

Your way of thinking regarding what MALLCs are capable of is extremely limited. You can do completely safe aerial approaches with moves such as Bair, get invincibility frames and then do literally anything. Run away, shield, spot dodge is all possible because MALLC literally negates all aerial lag. Bair to MALLC Buster Ftilt is true shield pressure. MALLCs can basically be used to return to neutral while putting your opponents in a bad state, which is a very good tool to have.

I know about Shulk's Nair also hitting later, but my point was that everyone acts like Cloud's frame 5 Nair just hits immediately which it does not (unless he's in a weird position below them.) Both Nair's have their uses and fit both characters though.

Also, are you implying that a good Shulk would just up-B right into the heel? Even if that situation would happen I would personally space Air slash so the upper part hits her before she even touches me.

Also, snapping the ledge with the second hit of up-B is really fast if you do it properly, you'd have to be a god to react to it.

You don't test range against two completely different objects. That is why the post I linked compared it to a stationary object, and found the exact max range for both (phantom hits).

Regular characters move a lot, and their hurtboxes are different (Ike has his left arm and leg far forward while Shulk does not. Ike has his max horizontal hitting the space of Shulk's chest instead of his extended leg.. etc). That is why to test max range you need to have them both attempting to hit the same stationary object (or Mega man holding an item). You showed that Shulk can hit standing Ike better than Ike can hit standing Shulk, not their true max ranges. You just showed that Ike's standing hurtbox is worse comparatively.

You didn't even try to refute anything that was said in the post I linked at all (which showed the center of the characters, the phantom hits, etc).

You went off on a tangent about MALLCs. You were talking about the art activation invincibility frames alone, which you got incorrect. Not your fault, you probably just saw the numbers on Kurogane.

MALLCs are good, yes. They still require specific timing which your opponent can see, Bair to Buster Ftilt still wont break a shield if you sweetspot both. MALLC punishes people for not knowing what MALLC does. It only negates all landing lag if you space it frame perfectly close to the ground, which gives your opponent even more time to react to your frame 21 bair (frame 18-20 is the front hit, again). Yes, you can use them to help you land.

You don't need to be a god to do it. People hit 2 frames, and this is straight up more vulnerable than that (Up B 2 wont save you from Mario/Wario's dash attack or Ike's eruption.)

 

[Dusk Pit]

lol you dont need a read to connect with limit cross slash

you can use it to edgeguard(it's the best in the game at catching the 2 frame), you can whiff punish with it, you can catch landings with it

Yes, you basically just described electroshock arm as well. Still no reliable confirms like Ryu has.

also it's basically a guaranteed kill past 80% anywhere on the stage because it's kbg is so damn high. and the places it's most likely to be used(offstage to edgeguard, covering ledge options) are near the edge and it'll kill early.

How much earlier do you reckon it kills with max rage if it guarantees a kill at 80% with no rage?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Mister Eric () just 2-0ed DJ Jack ()

Aprrantatly Nairo is in losers too, but idk who sent him there. Apaprantatly the opponent used Bayo though.

Edit:Saj sent him to losers

 

[sedrf]

Apparently Nairo lost to saj in pools.

 

[Nah]

Cloud's Uair now with interpolation.

Spoiler

You're welcome.

Is the hitbox like that for the entirety of Uair's active frames or is it just showing the area it covers from start to finish?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is the hitbox like that for the entirety of Uair's active frames or is it just showing the area it covers from start to finish?

Area it covers. It starts on F7 so it's by no means slow.

 

[sedrf]

amsa sent to losers bracket by marss
Edit: would probably not post more about updates.

 

[Scrubtorights]

How does anyone feel aidodges in this game anyway? I'm not going to be that "guy" that says people should edgeguard more but airdodges to a limited extend can be spammed in different ways that aren't SHAD or when being juggled. At least to me. Heck if it wasn't for the fact top tiers(which is alot) have long lasting moves and amazing recoveries offstage airdodges could be used for offensive when edgeguarding but that isn't the main point. Are airdodges to powerful a tool that make already good recovery moves too good or are they okay the way they are. Thanks in advance.

 

[bc1910]

Mister Eric wins his R1 pool. Are we about to see a ROB live up to the hype?

 

[Reapers]

Mister Eric wins his R1 pool. Are we about to see a ROB live up to the hype?

Didn't he kind of did when Thinkman posted that list where he was 10th in results? Or was I reading that wrong?

 

[bc1910]

Smashboards rankings don't mean as much as a strong performance on a national stage.

No-one's denying ROB's strength at mid-level, but at top- and arguably high-level he falls down. With various top players citing him as a top 20 character, he could use a good national performance to back up what they're saying.

 

[ARISTOS]

Didn't he kind of did when Thinkman posted that list where he was 10th in results? Or was I reading that wrong?

bc is probably referring to the idea that doesn't do quite as well at majors.

If he does better here then we have evidence to counter that claim

 

[HeavyLobster]

lol you dont need a read to connect with limit cross slash

you can use it to edgeguard(it's the best in the game at catching the 2 frame), you can whiff punish with it, you can catch landings with it

also it's basically a guaranteed kill past 80% anywhere on the stage because it's kbg is so damn high. and the places it's most likely to be used(offstage to edgeguard, covering ledge options) are near the edge and it'll kill early.

I swear that move really just has no lag on it, which enables some simply insane option coverage, especially while edgeguarding. So you don't need a read because it's not all that difficult to use it in such a way that even if you don't actually land it, you can frame trap them into something else. The big, strong, lingering hitboxes already can cover a lot of options, and zero lag means you can just hit them with something else offstage after forcing them to go low/high. Seeing M2K use it makes you immediately understand why he chose him. Limit Cross Slash enables the kind of option coverage ledgeguarding that M2K excels in with Melee Marth and Brawl MK.

 

[Zannabluke]

aba's m2 just pulled off one of those japanese vine footstool combo on pewpew's shiek

 

[NotLiquid]

Ladies and gentlemen; Mewtwo everyone.

 

[Shaya]

To have this thread hit by april fools and pound in one weekend is probably a bit too much.
So special pound thread edition; yay~

http://smashboards.com/threads/pound-2016-competitive-impressions.434326/

 

[Ninety]

Ladies and gentlemen; Mewtwo everyone.

Damn, my scepticism on the impact of Mewtwo's buffs is being challenged something fierce.

 

[TDK]

I think Cloud is fine as is. Limit requires a read and it doesn't even kill absurdly early. Also losing his limit means he loses ability to recover so it's kinda high risk high reward move. Actually, I find true shoryuken way more stupid than limit. Now if only they got rid of that confirm and did something to Bayonetta, I would be really happy with the game's balance.

Troll detected?

 

[C0rvus]

I wonder how consistently Mewtwo can land that footstool out of nair? I know his nair can send opponents in both directions, but there are ways to manipulate it one way or the other. I sure hope nair to footstool isn't a real confirm. He can get Disable or Shadow Ball out of it.

 

[Y2Kay]

You can always check the Mewtwo Boards. We got some real lab monsters down there.

You should probably ask @Sonicninja115 , he has labbed a lot of Nair stuff already.