Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[PK Gaming]

So, what's everybody think of ESAM supposedly dropping Pikachu? Don't really know him so IDK if he'd ever even entertain the idea, and it's hard to tell if it's just convenient timing... If it's true, mostly I'm wondering who he'd pick. The only other character I've heard he played was Samus, and that's probably not happening.

Supposedly, if he gets top 3 at pound , he'll stick with the character. Hard to tell if he's serious though, because his recent video was short and rather melodramatic (he usually devotes a lot more time to serious topics).

 

[juddy96]

Well ESAM just confirmed it was an April Fool's joke. Pika's not going anywhere. https://twitter.com/PG_ESAM/status/715977593464496128

 

[Zelder]

ESAM, the biggest Pikachu booster in the history of all time, releases a video claiming that he'll suddenly drop the character based on one particular tournament's outcome ON APRIL 1st, and we still got people in here discussing it before the truth comes out. Less than a page after someone believed Zero's claim that he was dropping Sheik for SHULK. Oh my God, y'all


It feels like I'm having a stroke.

edit: no disrespect to the Monado Boys in the audience, but Zero isn't about to take that big a gamble

 

[Muster]

You know what, I would be fine if we kept Emblemboards after April Fools.

The smash world forums april fools joke became a premium theme, iirc. This could have a chance of that as well.

Would you guys even believe me if I told you that Shulk's Ftilt is as fast as Ike's yet has more range? Up tilt is also the same speed and is one of the best anti airs in the game (Seriously, the hitbox is ridiculous.) And I just know someone is going to bring up Cloud's Nair being faster, but the ANGLE it comes out at makes it hit A LOT later than frame 5 if he's approaching, seriously it's basic math people.

Oh and art activation makes Shulk invincible for 14 FRAMES.

Guess what? You can find most of this out when looking at his frame data. Do some of you just listen to "SHULK HAS AWFUL FRAME DATA!1!" and leave it at that? Do you want him to have Marth frame data and make him invalidate every single character that has a problem with range?

I've yet to personally make use of his arts invinciblity but i agree with you on all the points, regardless.

Shulk was kind of meh when smash 4 first came out but since then he's gotten pretty much nothing but buffs patch after patch, with the 1.1.5 taking the edge off the landing lag on his aerials as well. I feel that people just don't want to take him seriously because of his slow start.

 

[C0rvus]

Shulk isn't fully understood by the average player. Why should he be? He super irrelevant to most people. Sure, he's got some interesting techniques and Arts are a cool gimmick, but he's so mediocre on a basic level that I'm afraid he'll never really be any good. It feels frustrating to watch Shulk compete. Such a cool concept, but executed poorly. And no tech will fix his basic issues.

And for some reason my eyes are burning when I visit this site. I wonder why?

 

[Y2Kay]

You can't trust nobody on April fools

I frickin hate this holiday

 

[Jalil]

Along with what Solfiner said, there's also a misconception that shulk has a bad grab game.

D throw combos into fair at low mid percents with speed on (also with jump and buster on but the percent range is a lot more specific).

Up throw combos into air slash from about 60-90 percent. Every character has their own percent ranges obviously. If you want to test it yourself do It on falcon since he has the widest percent range and mash airdodge/jump. Keep in mind up throw-->air slash doesn't always count on the combo counter but is still inescapable at the right percents.

Back throw in buster is really good for forcing tech chase situations. If you buffer deactivate buster so that you're in vanilla before you're able to act and read their roll you can kill with back slash at like 55 before the throw. If you're not in buster or you passed the range where it forces them into tumble on the ground, bthrow makes them face backwards so they're put in a bad position anyway.
Btw can someone tell me who my avatar is

 

[Chuva]

Now I understand how Samus mains feel. People ****ting on your character while not even understanding the basic fundamentals of what they can do.

Would you guys even believe me if I told you that Shulk's Ftilt is as fast as Ike's yet has more range? Up tilt is also the same speed and is one of the best anti airs in the game (Seriously, the hitbox is ridiculous.) And I just know someone is going to bring up Cloud's Nair being faster, but the ANGLE it comes out at makes it hit A LOT later than frame 5 if he's approaching, seriously it's basic math people.

Oh and art activation makes Shulk invincible for 14 FRAMES.

Guess what? You can find most of this out when looking at his frame data. Do some of you just listen to "SHULK HAS AWFUL FRAME DATA!1!" and leave it at that? Do you want him to have Marth frame data and make him invalidate every single character that has a problem with range?

I'd like to reiterate the sentiment.

This is particularly recurring towards the characters of mid to lower echelons of competitive viability, where I'd question whether such low rating is in part due to overdramatization of a character's flaws to the point where it eclipses it's qualities (I've already made a Bowser rant about this). I'll go further and suggest that it could be fostering a self fulfilling prophecy where "hey guys, Shulk frame data is bad, why play him" grows into a consolidated scale of exaggeration that only hinders characters development as they become less attractive to the competitive mindset.

I wonder how many of the advocates of "Zelda is utter rubbish because she has nothing good" (prior to 1.1.5) ever took their time to lab with her to have a minimal grasp of how the character operates, let alone play her in a proper competitive environment, in order to claim the character has nothing good (sorry, but that's just not true).

Then people see Palutena getting #13 in a regional, Jigglypuff #7 in a very stacked local and Dedede not getting molested by Rosalina in Nipon Land and proceed to go nuts..."ohhhh did you see that smooth Dthrow -> Nair -> Uair Palutena combo? What about those ledge cancelled Warp into Nair gimps? time to post on the CCI how we've been sleeping on her!", despite the raw data always being there to attest such capability.

Then there are the buffs, which some people are very quick to dismiss when it's relating to a character that is already mired in the previous perception of not being worthy (how many of you even remember Charizard's massive buffs?).

As it's been mentioned before by other members of this thread: I personally don't mind if people start opining on a character that they're not familiar with (I've had my share of doing that in the past), but to be so adamant and obtuse in your spread of often equivocal information is to harm any constructive debate.

And no, this is not meant to be your typical low tier apologist post, but rather a request for more accurate information and actual research.

 

[Nobie]

The importance of being solo viable is kind of overrated/overinflated, especially when we conflate "solo viability" with "viability" in general.

Across a ton of competitive games it's not bad to have some pockets or secondaries, and people will remember players a lot more for their mains than for those times they pull out a backup just in case.

Of course, this doesn't mean that players should just give up on labbing out bad matchups. Sometimes your familiarity with the matchup might end up being more important than who beats who on paper.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'd like to reiterate the sentiment.

This is particularly recurring towards the characters of mid to lower echelons of competitive viability, where I'd question whether such low rating is in part due to overdramatization of a character's flaws to the point where it eclipses it's qualities (I've already made a Bowser rant about this). I'll go further and suggest that it could be fostering a self fulfilling prophecy where "hey guys, Shulk frame data is bad, why play him" grows into a consolidated scale of exaggeration that only hinders characters development as they become less attractive to the competitive mindset.

I wonder how many of the advocates of "Zelda is utter rubbish because she has nothing good" (prior to 1.1.5) ever took their time to lab with her to have a minimal grasp of how the character operates, let alone play her in a proper competitive environment, in order to claim the character has nothing good (sorry, but that's just not true).

Then people see Palutena getting #13 in a regional, Jigglypuff #7 in a very stacked local and Dedede not getting molested by Rosalina in Nipon Land and proceed to go nuts..."ohhhh did you see that smooth Dthrow -> Nair -> Uair Palutena combo? What about those ledge cancelled Warp into Nair gimps? time to post on the CCI how we've been sleeping on her!", despite the raw data always being there to attest such capability.

Then there are the buffs, which some people are very quick to dismiss when it's relating to a character that is already mired in the previous perception of not being worthy (how many of you even remember Charizard's massive buffs?).

As it's been mentioned before by other members of this thread: I personally don't mind if people start opining on a character that they're not familiar with (I've had my share of doing that in the past), but to be so adamant and obtuse in your spread of often equivocal information is to harm any constructive debate.

And no, this is not meant to be your typical low tier apologist post, but rather a request for more accurate information and actual research.

I've used Zelda casually since Melee but until very recently I've felt that she just lacks flow. Her moves on paper and in a vacuum are workable, but as a kit she's got so many sweetspots that it's hard to be consistent. On top of that, slow + light is not the best combination for someone who one would suspect is meant to go for hard-hitting precision. And consistency is more highly valued anyway by competitive players in general.

It doesn't help that until 4 she was basically missing a special (no matter how good "go up several tiers" is as a move, it's still something she can't really use as herself) and Din's Fire is basically useless in neutral.

I've revisited her a bit more since 1.1.5 and she's better than the last time I took a serious look at her, but she has a ways to go at the same time. So...progress? I do know that a high level Zelda AI is terrifying to face since they have no problem whatsoever hitting you with sweetspot fair/bair at a moment's notice, so I'm inclined to believe that, technically, Zelda has the potential to be good, but the effort required to unlock that potential and do it consistently kind of dooms her when you could take that same amount of effort, apply it to literally any other character except maybe Jigglypuff or Dedede, and get better results.

 

[Trifroze]

While Roy doesn't look like a great character on the surface, he actually has a ton of useful tools such as the highest aerial speed in the game. Now you may ask, but hey Trifroze, isn't he ranked number 4 in his air speed stat? Well yes, but hear me out. Roy has the highest aerial speed because of how low his aerial acceleration is, since as a result he cannot switch directions in the air very easily and thus his average aerial momentum on his jumps ends up being higher than anyone else's. Aside from this great asset, Roy also effectively has the best frame data in the game if the player using him has a top notch reaction time and anticipates the opponent's every move. All of Roy's throws are weight dependent, which is something many people overlook. I think that once people figure out how to really optimize his grabs based on the opponent's weight, Roy may also prove to have the best grab game in Smash 4. That's right - I anticipate it to be leagues beyond pre-patch Diddy Kong in fact. I once connected a forward throw into fsmash near the ledge on my opponent while playing a Fox on For Glory. Now don't simply shrug this off merely because it was For Glory, as he definitely seemed like a tournament-level player. He died to this combo at 68% after the hit, and while I believe he airdodged onto the ground between the forward throw and the fsmash, I'm confident this will catch many people off guard if utilized at surprising moments, making it the strongest grab follow up in the game. Now Roy's recovery is often said to be a weakness for him, but I can prove this to be false right now. The key is Roy's average aerial speed as I explained earlier. Since Roy cannot stop and move back in the air easily after committing to a direction, this will ensure that he will always maximize his chances of getting back to the ledge. So far I haven't even had that many people chase after me offstage when I'm recovering as Roy, and when they do, they simply get hit by Roy's flaming sword making sure they will never try it again.

 

[williamsga555]

The avatar fits so perfectly my god

 

[Nobie]

While Roy doesn't look like a great character on the surface, he actually has a ton of useful tools such as the highest aerial speed in the game. Now you may ask, but hey Trifroze, isn't he ranked number 4 in his air speed stat? Well yes, but hear me out. Roy has the highest aerial speed because of how low his aerial acceleration is, since as a result he cannot switch directions in the air very easily and thus his average aerial momentum on his jumps ends up being higher than anyone else's.

Can't tell if this is an April Fool's joke.

Aerial acceleration and air top speed are two different stats. When Roy is listed as having 4th highest air speed, it means top speed. Same thing goes for Mewtwo, who also has terrible aerial acceleration. Yoshi and Jigglypuff are still faster than all of them.

Out of all the characters with the highest air acceleration, Mega Man has the highest top speed.

By the way KuroganeHammer do you ever plan on making an air friction table?

 

[wedl!!]

I once connected a forward throw into fsmash near the ledge on my opponent while playing a Fox on For Glory. Now don't simply shrug this off merely because it was For Glory, as he definitely seemed like a tournament-level player. He died to this combo at 68% after the hit, and while I believe he airdodged onto the ground between the forward throw and the fsmash, I'm confident this will catch many people off guard if utilized at surprising moments, making it the strongest grab follow up in the game.

It's like the saying goes.

A Skilled Roy can defeat any Fox.

 

[Yonder]

Time will tell. I think a lot of people are still flopping around with joy after Mew^2 beat Mew2King and then was before the buffs of the last patch. Mewtwo has the tools to be intimidating: great tilts, great throw follow ups, stupid range, a ton of kill options including the second most reliable kill throw in the game, arguably the most reliable reflector in the game, scary ground speed, etc. His aerial movement and recovery are still kind of awkward, he's still a giant target, and he's still laughably light so we'll see where he goes. Personally, I think he'll run into snags in the future, especially with Ike and DK being helped by the recent patches by seeing many of their worst match ups being declawed. There's a lot of characters that could arguably make the jump to high tier by the next tier list with being the most agreed upon while people being on the fence about arguments made for .

M2's only good tilt is D tilt. U tilt is mediocre unless you get the base of the tail [Then it leads to u smash kill confirm or a nice chain of u tilts.F tilt just sucks and has very little merit to ever be used over d tilt.

People are arguing that WFT and Mega Man are going to be high tier? Idk if they have the results besides Scatt for Mega Man and John Numbers for WFT. And I don't think either of them place often enough. I definitely think they are mid tier or upper mid, but not high yet. I don't think Lucario is high tier either, who are his recognizable players? I think the order for the characters you've mentioned for high tier should be TL>ROB> Greninja, DK> with M2 and Ike rounding off the bottoom of it.

 

[FullMoon]

Roy may also prove to have the best grab game in Smash 4. That's right - I anticipate it to be leagues beyond pre-patch Diddy Kong in fact. I once connected a forward throw into fsmash near the ledge on my opponent while playing a Fox on For Glory. Now don't simply shrug this off merely because it was For Glory, as he definitely seemed like a tournament-level player. He died to this combo at 68% after the hit, and while I believe he airdodged onto the ground between the forward throw and the fsmash, I'm confident this will catch many people off guard if utilized at surprising moments, making it the strongest grab follow up in the game

Trifroze releasing his inner Radical Larry

April Fools is a magical holiday indeed.

 

[HeavyLobster]

While Roy doesn't look like a great character on the surface, he actually has a ton of useful tools such as the highest aerial speed in the game. Now you may ask, but hey Trifroze, isn't he ranked number 4 in his air speed stat? Well yes, but hear me out. Roy has the highest aerial speed because of how low his aerial acceleration is, since as a result he cannot switch directions in the air very easily and thus his average aerial momentum on his jumps ends up being higher than anyone else's. Aside from this great asset, Roy also effectively has the best frame data in the game if the player using him has a top notch reaction time and anticipates the opponent's every move. All of Roy's throws are weight dependent, which is something many people overlook. I think that once people figure out how to really optimize his grabs based on the opponent's weight, Roy may also prove to have the best grab game in Smash 4. That's right - I anticipate it to be leagues beyond pre-patch Diddy Kong in fact. I once connected a forward throw into fsmash near the ledge on my opponent while playing a Fox on For Glory. Now don't simply shrug this off merely because it was For Glory, as he definitely seemed like a tournament-level player. He died to this combo at 68% after the hit, and while I believe he airdodged onto the ground between the forward throw and the fsmash, I'm confident this will catch many people off guard if utilized at surprising moments, making it the strongest grab follow up in the game. Now Roy's recovery is often said to be a weakness for him, but I can prove this to be false right now. The key is Roy's average aerial speed as I explained earlier. Since Roy cannot stop and move back in the air easily after committing to a direction, this will ensure that he will always maximize his chances of getting back to the ledge. So far I haven't even had that many people chase after me offstage when I'm recovering as Roy, and when they do, they simply get hit by Roy's flaming sword making sure they will never try it again.

Replace with and this could be any of Radical Larry's posts.
Edit: beat me to the punch.

 

[Deleted member]

Trifroze releasing his inner Radical Larry

April Fools is a magical holiday indeed.

Replace with and this could be any of Radical Larry's posts.
Edit: beat me to the punch.

I thought we all agreed not to openly antagonize Larry anymore? I'm guilty of doing it myself in the past and do regret it, but we seriously gotta stop. Stuff like this shouldn't be allowed in this thread.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I thought we all agreed not to openly antagonize Larry anymore? I'm guilty of doing it myself in the past and do regret it, but we seriously gotta stop. Stuff like this shouldn't be allowed in this thread.

Nobody openly antagainzed him though...

 

[HeavyLobster]

I thought we all agreed not to openly antagonize Larry anymore? I'm guilty of doing it myself in the past and do regret it, but we seriously gotta stop. Stuff like this shouldn't be allowed in this thread.

I'd be sympathetic to your argument if Larry hadn't actually admitted to me personally that his posts are deliberate trolling rather than controversial/misguided opinions. He knows better.

 

[Y2Kay]

To think I spent precious finger energy takin' up for him when the people in this thread blasted him for his misguided opinions.

Being taken advantage of sucks. I should've known it was a waste of my time. Damn........

 

[C0rvus]

We are all Radical Larry in our special way. In that way, Radical Larry is all of us.
...

Honestly if that's true it warrants a ban or something lol. What a legend.

I just want Pound to get going so there's something to talk about. Slow week.

 

[Solfiner]

The importance of being solo viable is kind of overrated/overinflated, especially when we conflate "solo viability" with "viability" in general.

Across a ton of competitive games it's not bad to have some pockets or secondaries, and people will remember players a lot more for their mains than for those times they pull out a backup just in case.

Of course, this doesn't mean that players should just give up on labbing out bad matchups. Sometimes your familiarity with the matchup might end up being more important than who beats who on paper.

I completely agree with this. A lot of match-ups are volatile enough to completely rule out solo viability in a lot of characters. I've always thought having at least two characters that cover each others bad match-ups is the best way to go.

 

[bc1910]

I don't know where the ROB hype train is pulling in from, but please remember he has a some very hard MUs with 2 (probably 3) of the top 5. His results drop off past regional level. He places well in Europe and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be high tier, but I really can't see him at the top end of it.

Lucario performs well on a semi-consistent basis, though he's kind of in a similar boat to ROB, but his MU spread looks really solid on paper.

IMO order for high tier newcomers should be TL>Greninja, DK>>Lucario>ROB>M2. Falcon keeps his place in high tier, as does Corrin, while the Pits probably drop out.

 

[Chuva]

I've used Zelda casually since Melee but until very recently I've felt that she just lacks flow. Her moves on paper and in a vacuum are workable, but as a kit she's got so many sweetspots that it's hard to be consistent. On top of that, slow + light is not the best combination for someone who one would suspect is meant to go for hard-hitting precision. And consistency is more highly valued anyway by competitive players in general.

It doesn't help that until 4 she was basically missing a special (no matter how good "go up several tiers" is as a move, it's still something she can't really use as herself) and Din's Fire is basically useless in neutral.

I've revisited her a bit more since 1.1.5 and she's better than the last time I took a serious look at her, but she has a ways to go at the same time. So...progress? I do know that a high level Zelda AI is terrifying to face since they have no problem whatsoever hitting you with sweetspot fair/bair at a moment's notice, so I'm inclined to believe that, technically, Zelda has the potential to be good, but the effort required to unlock that potential and do it consistently kind of dooms her when you could take that same amount of effort, apply it to literally any other character except maybe Jigglypuff or Dedede, and get better results.

For what's worth, I've also used Zelda since Melee, although I've completely skipped competitive Brawl.

To clarify: my point was never to claim Zelda is a funcional character and I completely agree with your observations. I'm sure we're all aware of her structural deficiencies at this point.

1.1.5 finally gave her glimpses of a proper defensive, punish-oriented game. You've mentioned AI, but I'd like to point out that human mistakes are bound to happen on both ends of a 1v1 match. You hit Zelda's shield the wrong way or disrespect her optimal range too much and you're at risk of losing your stock at mid %. That by itself is still a strength, even if dependent of others.

At the end, characters like Zelda and Palutena have to overcentralize their gameplan on preying on their opponent's mistake: be it impatience, poor positioning or bad button press, which is what leads to inconsistency. The moment you realize both characters lack the means to effectively threaten your optimal range and then just play accordingly, it becomes a struggle for them.

Funny because you could apply that to Corrin to an extent, although they have a much, much better (cohesive) moveset for the task.

 

[Fatmanonice]

M2's only good tilt is D tilt. U tilt is mediocre unless you get the base of the tail [Then it leads to u smash kill confirm or a nice chain of u tilts.F tilt just sucks and has very little merit to ever be used over d tilt.

People are arguing that WFT and Mega Man are going to be high tier? Idk if they have the results besides Scatt for Mega Man and John Numbers for WFT. And I don't think either of them place often enough. I definitely think they are mid tier or upper mid, but not high yet. I don't think Lucario is high tier either, who are his recognizable players? I think the order for the characters you've mentioned for high tier should be TL>ROB> Greninja, DK> with M2 and Ike rounding off the bottoom of it.

One of the more notable people to argue for WFT's high tier placement is Zero, citing the results of John Numbers, Rin, and Wii Twerk Trainer. With this last patch, Sheik and ZSS became significantly more manageable and John Numbers argues that the only match up that Wii Fit absolutely requires a secondary for is Kirby. Aside from Kirby, all her bad matchups are doable because, for most of them, they're only bad if you make dumb mistakes with her projectiles (notably against Mario and Villager) because the prospect of instantly dying from a reflected sun salutation or volleyball is always there.

As for Megaman, people are arguing that Sheik's fall from grace was just as big of a deal to him as it was for Greninja. Megaman is one of the few characters that arguably beats Rosalina (or at least breaks even with her) and, from what I'm seen from Japanese players, doesn't win a roundtrip ticket for the Struggle Bus against Bayonetta like most of the cast and seems to hold his own fairly well. I see a lot of disagreement on who all is a bad match up for Megaman but the only high tier character left that people seem to agree is a really bad match up is Mario which, all things considered, is really good.

 

[Amadeus9]

Wow thats so sad, for a second there i thought esam had a chance of being relevant. Tho I guess the joke is more on himself than anyone else looool

 

[BunbUn129]

Wow thats so sad, for a second there i thought esam had a chance of being relevant. Tho I guess the joke is more on himself than anyone else looool

It's hilarious considering everything he said in the video about Pikachu was completely true. And there are people going around who still claim uthrow -> thunder is a true set-up. Will this myth ever die?

I have a feeling he will be dropping him sooner or later. Maybe he'll join the Bayondwagon ...

Re: Roy. We've made this character into such a joke, I'm starting to feel sorry. #Onemorepatchplox

Edit: guys new MK tech!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywfZbURQzN0&feature=youtu.be

 

[Jalil]

One of the more notable people to argue for WFT's high tier placement is Zero, citing the results of John Numbers, Rin, and Wii Twerk Trainer. With this last patch, Sheik and ZSS became significantly more manageable and John Numbers argues that the only match up that Wii Fit absolutely requires a secondary for is Kirby. Aside from Kirby, all her bad matchups are doable because, for most of them, they're only bad if you make dumb mistakes with her projectiles (notably against Mario and Villager) because the prospect of instantly dying from a reflected sun salutation or volleyball is always there.

As for Megaman, people are arguing that Sheik's fall from grace was just as big of a deal to him as it was for Greninja. Megaman is one of the few characters that arguably beats Rosalina (or at least breaks even with her) and, from what I'm seen from Japanese players, doesn't win a roundtrip ticket for the Struggle Bus against Bayonetta like most of the cast and seems to hold his own fairly well. I see a lot of disagreement on who all is a bad match up for Megaman but the only high tier character left that people seem to agree is a really bad match up is Mario which, all things considered, is really good.

I agree with everything else but sheik's kill confirm wasn't the only thing bad for mm in this matchup. She still outdoes him convincingly in every game state, she just has to camp a little harder at high percents or focus more in edgeguarding to get kills which is pretty easy against his linear recovery.
Tbh I've always thought that mm should be played like villager. Instead of using his projectiles to keep people out, he should use them to aid his approach and shut down options. I think a mm who plays like that would do better than someone who plays like scatt in this matchup.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Umm... No.

Shulk's fair is longer than both Cloud's and Ike's (Before anyone gets on my case for this; go and try it yourselves. Shulk's Fair is still better horizontally than Ike's.) Shulk's forward Smash is longer than both of theirs as well. Shulk outranges Ike in literally everything except jab and grab range. Shulk also outranges Cloud in everything, EVEN Nair. I tested all the ranges extensively to come to this conclusion.

And for the record, Shulk can do an instant ledge snap with his up-b AND ledge snap with the second hit.

Stop with the misconceptions please.

Now I understand how Samus mains feel. People ****ting on your character while not even understanding the basic fundamentals of what they can do.

Would you guys even believe me if I told you that Shulk's Ftilt is as fast as Ike's yet has more range? Up tilt is also the same speed and is one of the best anti airs in the game (Seriously, the hitbox is ridiculous.) And I just know someone is going to bring up Cloud's Nair being faster, but the ANGLE it comes out at makes it hit A LOT later than frame 5 if he's approaching, seriously it's basic math people.

Oh and art activation makes Shulk invincible for 14 FRAMES.

Guess what? You can find most of this out when looking at his frame data. Do some of you just listen to "SHULK HAS AWFUL FRAME DATA!1!" and leave it at that? Do you want him to have Marth frame data and make him invalidate every single character that has a problem with range?

Shulk's Fair is not longer than Ike's as of 1.1.4. This shows horizontal, but Ike also wins vertically.

Ledge snapping with the second hit still makes you hang in the air for the while, and won't save you from Bayonetta/Madame Butterfly's Heel. Shulk doesn't have Cloud's air speed/accel, or his threatening nair and fair while offstage, and activating Jump Art often ends up with Shulk coming up from below as a result of needing to save his jump until the art activates.

I wouldnt believe you if you said that, because Shulk's ftilt is shorter range than Ike's, even though its 1 frame faster than Ike's. So neither of those are correct.

Art Activations only makes Shulk invincible for 14 frames maximum. It's different (shorter) depending on the art. You're only invincible while you keep the pose anyway, so there's better ways to dodge attacks with ~14 invincibility frames that dont require ages before an art activates (spotdodges).

Yeah, and the angle Shulk's nair comes out makes it hit a lot later than frame 13. Around frame 18 to be exact. I'll take Cloud's frame 10 in front and SH autocancel.

I dont know who this new icon is, but his face is making me snarky (who is he though?). That and you trying to call people out on Shulk misconceptions while spreading incorrect information.

 

[ぱみゅ]

A quick note before leaving: Let's keep Larry out of this thread for the moment.

He'll show us the light at EVO anyway.

 

[Solfiner]

Shulk's Fair is not longer than Ike's as of 1.1.4

Ledge snapping with the second hit still makes you hang in the air for the while, and won't save you from Bayonetta/Madame Butterfly's Heel. Shulk doesn't have Cloud's air speed/accel either, and activating Jump Artoften ends up with Shulk coming up from below as a result of needing to save his jump until the art activates.

I wouldnt believe you if you said that, because Shulk's ftilt is shorter range than Ike's, even though its 1 frame faster than Ike's. So neither of those are correct.

Art Activations only makes Shulk invincible for 14 frames maximum. It's different (shorter) depending on the art. You're only invincible while you keep the pose anyway, so there's better ways to dodge attacks with ~14 invincibility frames that dont require ages before an art activates (spotdodges).

Yeah, and the angle Shulk's nair comes out makes it hit a lot later than frame 13. Around frame 18 to be exact. I'll take Cloud's frame 10 in front and SH autocancel.

I dont know who this new icon is, but his face is making me snarky. That and you trying to call people out on Shulk misconceptions while spreading incorrect information.

What was that about misinformation?

Now this is probably because Ike's hurt box is a bit bigger, but their range is still about the same. Ike does not outrange Shulk, that is misinformation.

I'll give you the Ftilt range though, admittedly I was having a bit of trouble testing that correctly earlier. Should've stated that in my earlier post, sorry about that.

Your way of thinking regarding what MALLCs are capable of is extremely limited. You can do completely safe aerial approaches with moves such as Bair, get invincibility frames and then do literally anything. Run away, shield, spot dodge is all possible because MALLC literally negates all aerial lag. Bair to MALLC Buster Ftilt is true shield pressure. MALLCs can basically be used to return to neutral while putting your opponents in a bad state, which is a very good tool to have.

I know about Shulk's Nair also hitting later, but my point was that everyone acts like Cloud's frame 5 Nair just hits immediately which it does not (unless he's in a weird position below them.) Both Nair's have their uses and fit both characters though.

Also, are you implying that a good Shulk would just up-B right into the heel? Even if that situation would happen I would personally space Air slash so the upper part hits her before she even touches me.

Also, snapping the ledge with the second hit of up-B is really fast if you do it properly, you'd have to be a god to react to it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Can't tell if this is an April Fool's joke.

Aerial acceleration and air top speed are two different stats. When Roy is listed as having 4th highest air speed, it means top speed. Same thing goes for Mewtwo, who also has terrible aerial acceleration. Yoshi and Jigglypuff are still faster than all of them.

Out of all the characters with the highest air acceleration, Mega Man has the highest top speed.

By the way KuroganeHammer do you ever plan on making an air friction table?

Do you mean air deceleration or the natural momentum stopping after returning the stick to neutral

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't know where the ROB hype train is pulling in from, but please remember he has a some very hard MUs with 2 (probably 3) of the top 5. His results drop off past regional level. He places well in Europe and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve to be high tier, but I really can't see him at the top end of it.

I agree. I've never been that impressed with ROB, even in the Brawl days. I feel like he's basically Yoshi but with kill confirms: a super annoying character that's largely one dimensional when you get to their brass tacks. With Greninja, DK, and possibly Mewtwo, Megaman, Corrin, and Wii Fit climbing in the future, I think things will just get harder for ROB in the long run. I imagine Bayo is terrible and Cloud has to be a headache too. It could be argued that ROB is allowed some breathing room because there's not a lot of high level Villagers as of late either.

 

[Ninety]

Along with what Solfiner said, there's also a misconception that shulk has a bad grab game.

D throw combos into fair at low mid percents with speed on (also with jump and buster on but the percent range is a lot more specific).

Up throw combos into air slash from about 60-90 percent. Every character has their own percent ranges obviously. If you want to test it yourself do It on falcon since he has the widest percent range and mash airdodge/jump. Keep in mind up throw-->air slash doesn't always count on the combo counter but is still inescapable at the right percents.

Back throw in buster is really good for forcing tech chase situations. If you buffer deactivate buster so that you're in vanilla before you're able to act and read their roll you can kill with back slash at like 55 before the throw. If you're not in buster or you passed the range where it forces them into tumble on the ground, bthrow makes them face backwards so they're put in a bad position anyway.
Btw can someone tell me who my avatar is

Your avatar is Fire Emblem Tellius' (Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn) Soren. Cranky mage, tactician, arguably gay for Ike.

 

[L9999]

Wow, this place has gone mad with the stupid FE crap.

It's hilarious considering everything he said in the video about Pikachu was completely true. And there are people going around who still claim uthrow -> thunder is a true set-up. Will this myth ever die?

I have a feeling he will be dropping him sooner or later. Maybe he'll join the Bayondwagon ...

Re: Roy. We've made this character into such a joke, I'm starting to feel sorry. #Onemorepatchplox

Edit: guys new MK tech!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywfZbURQzN0&feature=youtu.be

No, never mention it, you will summon the people that insist on that freaking debate. Whether ESAM drops the rat or not, there are still Rat players out there (Z, Enki, PikaForLife, Shimitake, NAKAT sometimes), but yes, none are ESAM tier. Yeah Roy is trash, but I think he doesn't get buffed because of online. He is the Bayonetta of online, make a single mistake or attempt to read anything and you freaking die. Lag ruins combos and gimping him is not always an option, timing are too strict and the most likely result is dying of a stage spike. His attacks feel that they have 100 frames of shieldstun due to the actual hitstun plus the lag, and lag breaks focus, and Roy gets free grabs in online. But online is nonsense anyways.

 

[Nobie]

Do you mean air deceleration or the natural momentum stopping after returning the stick to neutral

The latter.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The latter.

I mean like, it's probably not that important but I'll put it on my roadmap.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly...

I'm starting to think that people in this thread don't know characters they don't play barring the high tiers.

Like at all.

People are really quick to dismiss the mid/low/bottom even though the mid/low/bottom have pretty good results considering their current tier. Some of the stuff I'm reading shows minimal labbing, no play time (rarely even casuals) or even reading stuff from a character's mains.

I mean if Jigglypuff can get a 7th in a notable tournament, I think the likes of Roy, Shulk, literally anyone else because oh gosh poor Jiggs, etc. can at least be noteworthy or have a niiche.

STORY TIME!!!

Back in my first Melee tournament, there was a pretty good . I chose my main (laugh all you want, I got pretty far) and we fought. In the first round, he was kicking my ass thoroughly, but somehow I landed Mewtwo's down air and evened it up, allowing me to win the round.

He had no idea Mewtwo had a meteor, and this was an L-Canceling, wavedashing, uber competitive kind of guy.

After that, he played sloppily and I won the set comfortably. He told me afterwards that he never knew Mewtwo could do ANY of what I did, because he just regarded him as trash and never looked into him more than a superficial glance.

The guy was blinded by the "high tier goggles." The moment something different came by, he crumbled because he didn't know what to do. Not because he didn't get enough practice, but because he straight up knew nothing.

A lot of the stuff I'm reading recently reminds me of that player.

Yeah, Roy may not win a national any time soon. But Roy can beat you and harm YOUR competitive career because he did stuff you didn't know or think was possible.

Don't count out low tiers.

The moment you do is the moment they gain a distinct advantage.

 

[wedl!!]

jigglypuff is bad and results at oversized locals do not prove she isn't a **** tier character