Beat!
Smash Master
Indeed.
Indeed.
Indeed.
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"****"
- Thread starter Caretaker
- Start date
Beat!
Smash Master
Self-fulfilling prophecy! Cheater!
Beat!
Smash Master
I know, but it's still cheating.
Cheaty cheat-cheater.
Great. Now "cheater" has lost all meaning when I say it, and it sounds super weird. I hate when that happens.
Guys, we shouldn't use the word "cheater" anymore because it will sound weird to me for the next five minutes.
Cheaty cheat-cheater.
Great. Now "cheater" has lost all meaning when I say it, and it sounds super weird. I hate when that happens.
Guys, we shouldn't use the word "cheater" anymore because it will sound weird to me for the next five minutes.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
Pikaville
Pikaville returns 10 years later.
I rarely use **** as a gaming term unless it's say a friend and I genuinely destroy them with something.
I do use gay an awful lot though.
But I'm gay so it's cool.
It's like how only black guys can call each other ******.
I do use gay an awful lot though.
But I'm gay so it's cool.
It's like how only black guys can call each other ******.
Shadic
Alakadoof?
Yeah, because we all know **** victims like to shout out the fact that they've been sexually assaulted in the past. Not like it's under-reported on top of that, either.
I'm not offended, but it does make the community look less attractive to the outside eye. And some of those outside people are potential candidates for entering the scene.
All in all, it's making the community look juvenile and offensive with absolutely no positive tradeoff. Cool, we get it, you're not offended by the word. You want to show off that thick skin of yours.
Some people aren't like that, and with the smallest bit of consideration it wouldn't be an issue. Empathy is a virtue.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
If you're worried about not knowing whether the people around you will be offended, you should pretty much not say anything.
I've already actually made my views on this known in other threads, so some people may already be prepared for a bit of a read. They may even skip it. Hell, most people skip it and just tell me I'm being high and mighty, and maybe I am. But this is something that has worried me about this community (and the gaming community as a whole, since it's more than just Smashers that do this) for a while, and since we're talking about it, I might as well end my personal moratorium on it. The way **** is regarded by gamers, and even many other people, is deeply problematic on several levels. It goes beyond just the word--it goes all the way to how **** is trivialized by our culture as a community, and it creates an environment that is dangerous to everyone.
First off, I'm not really deeply bothered by the use of the word ****. It saddens me, but as a linguist, I know full well about the process of weakening, also known as hyperbole. Sadly, **** has gained the meaning of defeat, as a verb, or exceptional, as an adjective. It has lost its impact through use in other contexts. This is not a process anyone has conscious control over, and moreover it's not something that can be reversed.
But what bothers me is that for all that the people who use the term in the senses I've outlined say that it's just a word and that I should just get over it, they sure do go out of their way to obliquely refer to the act of using sex as a weapon of violence and oppression in an elevating light. To me it shows that even though these people want me to divorce the older meaning of the word from the newer meaning, they themselves haven't. And this, my fellow smashers, is a huge, huge problem. It shows whether or not a result of the word's overuse, the act itself is losing its impact. And that should never happen. Ever.
If you don't already know, **** is a really ****ing horrible thing. A person's sexual identity is a deeply personal matter. Now, I'm not arguing for monogamy or anything like that. If someone is promiscuous, and chooses to separate sex from emotional intimacy, that's entirely their decision. But it's still their decision. And that's what I mean when I say it's deeply personal. No one else should have a say in a person's sexual identity but that person, unless that person allows another to. In a world where many cultures strive to control the individual's sexual identity, **** is the most violent, base and cruel way of doing so. It tells the victim they are weak, and that they have no power over who has sex with them. It tells them that the very core of their sexual identity--who they have sex with--is not theirs to control; and if they don't have that, then what do they have? It is my deepest wish that no one reading this post has to know how deeply worthless that must make a person feel (even though the statistics argue to the contrary). But I do hope that those of us who haven't experienced that, can sympathize.
Now some people also tell me to lighten up, that they're using the word as a joke, and of course they'd take it seriously if there were a victim or something around. But it's just not worth it to take the world so seriously all the time. I can't say how abhorrent I find this point of view, because there really aren't words. I've already tried to impart to the readers of this post how horrifying **** really is. With that in mind, can anyone really tell me that **** can be reduced to a schoolyard knock knock joke? That I shouldn't take it seriously? The fact is, having sex organs, and any number of penetrable orifices, we're all potential **** victims, so joking about the act as though its trivial does every one of us a huge disservice.
This isn't to say I wouldn't find it funny for a comedian to crack a joke about **** in his act. But comedians do something with their jokes that most people don't do when they casually drop the word "****" like it's funny; the comedian's jokes have a point. They're providing social commentary, and usually the deeper joke is that they're implicitly judging the culture that generated the joke. That means the real butt of the joke is you.
The word "****" is not in and of itself offensive. But then, the word God is not in and of itself divine. Regardless, **** is much more difficult to divorce from it's meaning than most people seem to think. **** is a vicious, terrible thing. **** is not funny. I think, owing the fact that most members of the community are still very young, and haven't really encountered anything approaching the real world, that most members of the smash community has really genuinely never confronted those irrefutable facts before this thread. Now, rather than simply ignore it all like immature ninth graders, be adults, and actually face these facts head-on.
And don't scoff when I say you haven't confronted these facts. That just means you really haven't.
First off, I'm not really deeply bothered by the use of the word ****. It saddens me, but as a linguist, I know full well about the process of weakening, also known as hyperbole. Sadly, **** has gained the meaning of defeat, as a verb, or exceptional, as an adjective. It has lost its impact through use in other contexts. This is not a process anyone has conscious control over, and moreover it's not something that can be reversed.
But what bothers me is that for all that the people who use the term in the senses I've outlined say that it's just a word and that I should just get over it, they sure do go out of their way to obliquely refer to the act of using sex as a weapon of violence and oppression in an elevating light. To me it shows that even though these people want me to divorce the older meaning of the word from the newer meaning, they themselves haven't. And this, my fellow smashers, is a huge, huge problem. It shows whether or not a result of the word's overuse, the act itself is losing its impact. And that should never happen. Ever.
If you don't already know, **** is a really ****ing horrible thing. A person's sexual identity is a deeply personal matter. Now, I'm not arguing for monogamy or anything like that. If someone is promiscuous, and chooses to separate sex from emotional intimacy, that's entirely their decision. But it's still their decision. And that's what I mean when I say it's deeply personal. No one else should have a say in a person's sexual identity but that person, unless that person allows another to. In a world where many cultures strive to control the individual's sexual identity, **** is the most violent, base and cruel way of doing so. It tells the victim they are weak, and that they have no power over who has sex with them. It tells them that the very core of their sexual identity--who they have sex with--is not theirs to control; and if they don't have that, then what do they have? It is my deepest wish that no one reading this post has to know how deeply worthless that must make a person feel (even though the statistics argue to the contrary). But I do hope that those of us who haven't experienced that, can sympathize.
Now some people also tell me to lighten up, that they're using the word as a joke, and of course they'd take it seriously if there were a victim or something around. But it's just not worth it to take the world so seriously all the time. I can't say how abhorrent I find this point of view, because there really aren't words. I've already tried to impart to the readers of this post how horrifying **** really is. With that in mind, can anyone really tell me that **** can be reduced to a schoolyard knock knock joke? That I shouldn't take it seriously? The fact is, having sex organs, and any number of penetrable orifices, we're all potential **** victims, so joking about the act as though its trivial does every one of us a huge disservice.
This isn't to say I wouldn't find it funny for a comedian to crack a joke about **** in his act. But comedians do something with their jokes that most people don't do when they casually drop the word "****" like it's funny; the comedian's jokes have a point. They're providing social commentary, and usually the deeper joke is that they're implicitly judging the culture that generated the joke. That means the real butt of the joke is you.
The word "****" is not in and of itself offensive. But then, the word God is not in and of itself divine. Regardless, **** is much more difficult to divorce from it's meaning than most people seem to think. **** is a vicious, terrible thing. **** is not funny. I think, owing the fact that most members of the community are still very young, and haven't really encountered anything approaching the real world, that most members of the smash community has really genuinely never confronted those irrefutable facts before this thread. Now, rather than simply ignore it all like immature ninth graders, be adults, and actually face these facts head-on.
And don't scoff when I say you haven't confronted these facts. That just means you really haven't.
Zodiac
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2005
- Messages
- 3,557
Yea...this thread goes like this, we basically talk about a little bit, say we shouldn't do it...and then don't give a **** and keep doing it.
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
If you can draw a causal relationship between an increase in permissiveness toward the use of a particular word (****), and a decrease in seriousness shown toward the thing itself (actual ****), then I will agree with you. In other words, if you can show that gamers throwing around the word "****" can lead directly to said gaming community (or anyone else that absentmindedly uses it to describe something that isn't actually ****) developing indifference of any kind toward **** itself, then this discussion may not be in vain.
Does there need to be a causal relationship for it to be wrong that the gaming community has a very apparent indifference to **** itself?
That's not even where I was going with my argument. To the contrary, my point was that, despite the claims that the casual use of the word has not cheapened its meaning, the actual meaning of **** has been cheapened. I don't really care about the way it happened. That it happened at all is what I find worrisome.
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
You're saying that the actual meaning behind **** has been cheapened (which is debatable due to the vagueness of the word "cheap", and we don't know how cheap it's been the past few millenia) but we'll just roll with it. I'm challenging how the use of a particular word in one context has any bearing over the other contexts of the word. A causal relationship between using '****' to describe a match in Smash and literal **** being "cheapened" is what I'm asking for, because I don't think there is one. You say you're worried about the meaning of **** being cheapened, and this is a thread about the casual use of the word doing just that. If you're saying that Smashers (or other gamers) who say '****' loosely contribute to **** devaluation. I want you to show me how this is true.
Also, I'd suggest you read the whole thread if you haven't.
So... you bring semantics into the debate to dodge my point and try to trap me in my definitions, then you again bring forth a strawman for me to attempt to support. You must have been a debater in high school.
I'm trying to say that the whole damn argument of whether the casual use word has lead to the impact of its meaning being lost is neither here nor there. The fact is, it has happened; and rather than acknowledge that, you'd have me dragged into an argument that I have explicitly stated I have no desire to engage in.
ph00tbag's post is really good.
Part of being a decent human being is learning to understand how other people feel, and actually caring about those feelings. Call it empathy, understanding, maturity, whatever. So it comes down to two things: can you recognize that other people may have a different reaction to the word "****" than you do? And do you give a damn?
Part of being a decent human being is learning to understand how other people feel, and actually caring about those feelings. Call it empathy, understanding, maturity, whatever. So it comes down to two things: can you recognize that other people may have a different reaction to the word "****" than you do? And do you give a damn?
stabbedbyanipple
Smash Master
**** *****.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Had a long post, and decided against it. Trends in language come and go, and I don't think that the word in and of itself is enough of a problem, because smashers are not neither consciously nor subconsciously making the drect connection between sexual violence and humiliation in a video game. It'd be a different matter if they did.
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
MaskedMarth
Smash Ace
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
Any middle ground will necessarily be arbitrarily chosen. I wasn't making the case for saying "everything" anyway. It's just ridiculous to ask me to not say something because someone might be offended. Which would be like asking me to not say "*****rdly" because someone who is not knowledgeable on the word's etymology might be offended.
On a separate note, while you can personally be against the use of a word, I think you should avoid being judgmental and sanctimonious towards those who do use it. Using the word "****" doesn't make you a misogynist, so the disapproval seems to be at the word itself, and not its meaning. This seems absurd.
On a separate note, while you can personally be against the use of a word, I think you should avoid being judgmental and sanctimonious towards those who do use it. Using the word "****" doesn't make you a misogynist, so the disapproval seems to be at the word itself, and not its meaning. This seems absurd.
Kal, you do realize that your argument about the word *****rdly is totally off-base? *****rdly has a different etymology from ******. ****'s meaning is initially derived from the act of sexual violence. People who are offended by the word *****rdly are just ignorant of the word (probably because most people just use the word miserly). Whereas people who are offended by the word **** are frequently much less ignorant of the word's meaning than the people who use it.
But they are. It's not just the word ****. When HMW says it was "anal, dry, no spit," that does a lot more to draw a direct connection, and it shows a belief that sexual violence is an acceptable metaphor for defeat in a game. I hear examples of this mindset every time I go to tournaments. If you don't, I have a hard time believing that you're really listening for it.
Lukahn
Smash Apprentice
We should also raise our little finger while holding the controller.
Massive
Smash Champion
Why can't we use a sexual metaphor for defeat? What the hell is wrong with using risque metaphors?
Nobody anywhere is trivializing actual **** victims in this, we've simply added an alternate definition and context a word or idea can be used in. You can feel free to disagree based on whatever anecdotal "cheapening" you perceive, but I have yet to see any evidence at all that our hearts have been hardened to their plight. If anything I'd say we're likely more sympathetic than the general population, but that's just my own anecdotal experience speaking.
Most people in this community are more than willing to show empathy and hold their tongues to accommodate people with these issues. But keep in mind this is done out of kindness; not you, nor anyone else has any right to not be offended by the words or actions of others.
It is selfish to expect others to censor themselves because you draw a negative connotation to what they may say. Empathy is one of the most visible signs of maturity in children, but understanding that the world does not revolve around your feelings is a sign of maturity as a person.
I apologize if anyone perceives any of that as offensive as it is not intended as such.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
It's not off-base. The point is about not dropping vocabulary solely because it might offend people. Not about the likelihood of people being offended by it.
If your argument, that our misuse of the word has led to a dampening of the act itself, made any sense to me, I would follow it. But I call bull ****, because, as said earlier, you haven't shown any causal link between people's appreciation of the act itself and people's callous use of the word.
Planet Piss
Smash Journeyman
So you're only saying that how **** (in general) is seen has been cheapened? That's what I initially read your post to mean, but since we're in "Melee Discussion", I assumed you weren't referring to **** in general being cheapened, because that isn't relevant. I thought you would be on the side of the discussion that thought that Smashers who use the word to describe a match contribute to the cheapening of **** as a whole. I just took everything you said... you know... in the context of this thread and board. Sorry.
And no, I wasn't a debater in high school. I brought up your choice of the word "cheap" because, as we Smashers know (from discussions of stage bans and whatnot), arguments using those words are almost weightless. I'm sorry if you thought I was strawmanning, but I felt like I needed to bring up the fact that not only are charged words like "cheap" bad for arguments, but I don't have to agree that **** has been "cheapened" at all. Even if I knew what that meant, I'm not sure I would agree because I don't know how "cheap" it was before. Do you mean to say that in this day and age, people in our society don't look down on **** as much as we used to? That the meaning of **** has changed to mean something completely different?
Lol don't piss him off.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
I agree with this. Like I've said, words themselves hold no more meaning than what we attach to them, so being disapproving of the word rather than the meaning does seem to be absurd.
When you put it in that manner, I cannot disagree with you. There are instances in which we associate **** directly with the sexual meaning of it, now that I think about it. However, I don't think that by any means that we are endorsing the actual act of **** (outside of this video game). I will say that the use of the word probably gives some people a negative view of us. I dunno. It didn't bother me when I heard it being used at all. And I'm not sure that we should curtail our speech just because someone may be offended.
Essentially this. And to add a bit more, I think that insensitivity to this act comes in the form of things far more pressing than what gamers say about it. I think that it can excused (to some degree, anyways, because you have a salient point) because we aren't actually perpetuating the act, or encouraging it, or making like of the actual act itself (since the context we use it in is different).
I hope that makes sense.
Anth0ny
Smash Master
**** and gay are really fun words
but really, we should make the transition from gay to lame, and **** to... blown up?
but really, we should make the transition from gay to lame, and **** to... blown up?
I hate to multiquote, but there are a lot of things I need to address.
**** is not risque. It is cruel, violent, and one of the worst things you could do to a person.
You just trivialized **** in the paragraph above. If you don't think you have, then you're not at all sympathetic.
This is a strawman, and you know it. My argument isn't based on my feelings. It's based on the feelings of people who are actually offended by reference to sexual violence in general.
But we're perpetuating a culture that elevates and normalizes sexual violence. It may not seem like it, but that's because you're used to the culture. And this culture still does a lot to enable it.
gghhh3
Smash Apprentice
People use the word kill(or similar words) a lot.
"I am going to kill you." "You're dead." "I'd kill to spend one night with [Celebrity]"
**** is not the problem, DEATH IS!
STOP USING WORDS THAT MEAN THE DEATH OF SOMEONE!
"I am going to kill you." "You're dead." "I'd kill to spend one night with [Celebrity]"
**** is not the problem, DEATH IS!
STOP USING WORDS THAT MEAN THE DEATH OF SOMEONE!
@ph00tbag
But we're perpetuating a culture that elevates and normalizes sexual violence. It may not seem like it, but that's because you're used to the culture. And this culture still does a lot to enable it.
wouldn't you say that using the word "****" as a synonym for the before mentioned emphasises the fact that its treated as a different crime in society than murder?
IMO this argument will never be brought up about the word murder/kill/death even though murder is a more serious crime.
my english is too poor to compose a more formal argument on the topic
p.s
I think their may be a distinction between genders
at least on our state funded radio its socially acceptableto talk/joke about males getting ***** in a domination/literal meaning,but if a word was said/joked about against a female it would be perefectly appropriate to the article, never heardany examples otherwise.
But we're perpetuating a culture that elevates and normalizes sexual violence. It may not seem like it, but that's because you're used to the culture. And this culture still does a lot to enable it.
wouldn't you say that using the word "****" as a synonym for the before mentioned emphasises the fact that its treated as a different crime in society than murder?
IMO this argument will never be brought up about the word murder/kill/death even though murder is a more serious crime.
my english is too poor to compose a more formal argument on the topic
p.s
I think their may be a distinction between genders
at least on our state funded radio its socially acceptableto talk/joke about males getting ***** in a domination/literal meaning,but if a word was said/joked about against a female it would be perefectly appropriate to the article, never heardany examples otherwise.
LittleBoyLarry
Smash Journeyman
Stop! Don't touch me there,
This is my private square.
R-A-P-E
Get the **** away from me.
This is my private square.
R-A-P-E
Get the **** away from me.
This is arguable.
Oh there's definitely a difference in the way **** is viewed depending on the sex of the victim, but that's a problem, too. Underreporting of **** by male victims is higher than by female victims because it's regarded as a joke, and men who have been ***** and do report it are often treated with even less respect than women who report ****.
Thank you to you, Kal, and every other linguistic and moral genius who's made this point in this thread.
Once again (although I don't expect anyone to listen this time, either)-even if the word is harmless, you will never explain it to the outside world, and it would behoove us to appear no more repulsive and morally bankrupt than we actually are.
I give Kal 4 posts before he goes back to calling everyone sanctimonious puritans. Dude probably owns Vinyl pop albums and majors in philosophy.
Kal
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2004
- Messages
- 2,973
***** I don't buy music. I pirate that ****. Also I majored in math.
In all seriousness, you're just reiterating a point I've already addressed. Here you go.
People aren't going to change their opinion of us based on our use of the word. If we want people to think we're less repulsive, the stereotype that we are needs to disappear. Dropping the word "****" from our vocabulary won't make that happen.
I do, however, appreciate being called a linguistic and moral genius. Despite the fact that I think you were going for sarcasm, I am quite flattered.
In all seriousness, you're just reiterating a point I've already addressed. Here you go.
People aren't going to change their opinion of us based on our use of the word. If we want people to think we're less repulsive, the stereotype that we are needs to disappear. Dropping the word "****" from our vocabulary won't make that happen.
I do, however, appreciate being called a linguistic and moral genius. Despite the fact that I think you were going for sarcasm, I am quite flattered.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Well I disagree to use **** as a word personally so I made a good effort to say "I owned you, or I destroyed you.. or again I crushed you." Seems more fitting anyway.. everyone should do that. =P
Citizen Snips
Smash Journeyman
Sorry Kage, 'crushed' is reserved solely for Crush's combos.
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Sorry but I'm from 2006 so i get priority =)