"****"

[Roneblaster]

They only did that on april fools day

If ur referring to **** being changed to rebbeca black

 

[ETWIST51294]

I don't think anyone is condoning use of the word ****** either.

You completely missed the point.

 

[Caretaker]

You completely missed the point.

Seriously? I think you're missing the point. Just because you want to put up with racism doesn't make it okay, and the fact that you think '****' means 'nothing' ~is the problem~

 

[Roneblaster]

In the grand scheme of things it means nothing. Let people say whatever they want, if they cant filter their language in the real world they wont be able to survive and the problem will take care of itself.

 

[CloneHat]

"Oh they don't mean **** in that way haw haw haw!"

Use a different word. It still carries the same connotations.

 

[Massive]

Brawl players are a lot more chill than Melee players are willing to admit, by the way.

There are plenty of really cool brawl players, I totally agree.

However communities are always strained the most at their weakest links, there are some very vocal ******* kids in the brawl community who bring down the quality of the community experience. We have them as well in melee but many of them have been pushed away after years of being *******s and either relaxed or moved on. Keep in mind that when brawl came out, melee was already almost 7 years old.

SRK dudes are the same way, I've met a lot of awesome people in the street fighter scene who are legitimately cool dudes/ladies, but even they can't argue that there is not a huge chunk of their scene who are gigantic dip****s.

It feels like the newer the game is the more people complain about it, as if their complaints will change it (which actually works for SF4 and MvC3, but not at all with Brawl). These people haven't had time to migrate to "the next big thing" in the brawl community (which would be whatever smash comes out next, probably), so they're still around.

 

[Planet Piss]

If Melee is like sex, then a good four-stocking is analogous to ****.

I've heard this argument before, but never from within the Smash community. The supposition is that I never know if I'm in the presence of a victim of ****, so it is of bad taste to use it casually. The logic seems to be, generally, that 'Someone could be offended', so I should not say something like "****".

Offense is taken and not given. That's the bottom line of this argument. Some people just choose to burden themselves with being offended by a word, and get a nasty tingly feeling when they hear it- which is of no consequence to anyone but themselves. Everything will offend someone at some point in time, and no one should have the right to be exempt from offense.

And then there are the individuals who were actually ***** and have to hear the word being used insensitively. Still, though, there isn't a good reason to actually prohibit someone from using a particular word. Censorship cannot be based on uncertainty; that if I say something, someone might get offended through no fault of their own. Perhaps they might even relive the experience if they hear a related word. Someone says "****" and a nearby victim has some sort of flashback of the event. What if I say "jungle" in the vicinity of a Vietnam vet and he has a flashback? What if I say "blue" and a victim remembers that their attacker/rapist had a blue shirt on? Censorship arguments are a slippery slope of dogmaticism and generally boil down to "that word makes me uneasy so I don't want anyone using it (out of its intended context)".

As other users in the thread have pointed out: The definitions of words are liquid and change constantly. Personally, I don't like to use words that have relatively high potential to make me some enemies or cause someone to relive a traumatic experience, but all I'm saying is you can't tell someone not to say something because of offense alone. All you can do is ignore.

 

[standardtoaster]

courtesy of glowworm

 

[frotaz37]

I love the word **** and use it as often as possible. Especially around women, because they act like **** only happens to them.

 

[Caretaker]

Well the overwhelming majority of **** -does- happen to women

ps you are disgusting.

 

[HomeStylePie]

If Melee is like sex, then a good four-stocking is analogous to ****.

Uh... try again? There was a lot wrong with your post, but I think this really sums it up.

 

[Caretaker]

yeah, are you saying that **** is winning at sex?

Edit: not that that awkwardly phrased analogy is really central to the debate

Edit2: 'Offense is taken and not given' is a statement which has a lot of parallels to the victim blaming rampant in **** culture.

 

[Massive]

yeah, are you saying that **** is winning at sex?

Edit: not that that awkwardly phrased analogy is really central to the debate

Are you trying to turn this into a fight?
Why are you trying so hard to take offense to everything?

The whole reason we say "****" is because of the implication that there was literally nothing their opponent could've done to remedy the situation. They were completely and utterly defeated.

It's more akin to prison **** than man-on-woman ****. Not that that improves the nomenclature at all.

 

[Caretaker]

I encourage you to re-read the above comments - I didn't have to try especially hard to take offense to

"I love the word **** and use it as often as possible. Especially around women, because they act like **** only happens to them."

or

"**** you"

I'm not trying to turn this into a fight, and I'm sure you're all sick of this discussion, but maybe instead of expressing frustration at the appearance of the threads, or trying to justify something which needlessly offends people, something could be done about this to change the ridiculous gender imbalance caused by video gamers/smashers attitudes towards ****. /run-on sentence sorry

note: A scene-wide change in vocabulary obviously won't happen, but it wouldn't hurt if a few people changed their attitudes, or hell, maybe some mods took notice.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Seriously? I think you're missing the point. Just because you want to put up with racism doesn't make it okay, and the fact that you think '****' means 'nothing' ~is the problem~

Once again, you miss my point. When the words **** and gay are used in smash they mean nothing. I didnt say **** means nothing, use some damn common sense. As many gay people play smash.. that ones not really a problem.. but ****? I dont understand the problem in saying it like this. So because women get ***** you cant use the word for something else now? Cool, make sure you never say words like molest, beat, owned, whooped, or any other thing that ties to a tramatic occurrence in somebodies life. Thats like me getting mad about somebody joking about jumping people. Yeah ive been jumped, yeah it made an impact on my life but i dont get mad overr stupid **** like that.

In other words, stop ****ing crying about words.

 

[Planet Piss]

Uh... try again? There was a lot wrong with your post, but I think this really sums it up.

Even match with unskilled competitors: Vanilla, missionary, awkward intercourse
Even match with skilled competitors: Exciting and pornographic
Four-stocking: Complete domination, and as I said, consistently analogous to ****.

If you're going to say I'm wrong, please point out why specifically. I said "analogous", not equivalent.

victim blaming rampant in **** culture.

I really don't want to get into this, but victim blaming =/= subjectivity of language. Saying "****" out of traditional context (in reference to video games) has nothing to do with taking fault away from rapists. Using "****" to describe a match
1. Does not require that the person hearing the word makes the direct connection between real **** and Smash ****. If the connection is made, it's not the fault of the person who said it. It's just like how we use the word "gay" to describe things that aren't literally gay.
2. Does not have any bearing over what the Smashers (or whatever other game) feel about actual **** in general. Since the definitions of words are entirely context related, saying "****" in one context does not affect any of the word's other contexts until one makes the mental connection. **** culture, or **** in general, does not become automatically more permissible by using "****" in a non-literal context.
Victim blaming is caused by ignorance, not the symbolic nature of language.

 

[Caretaker]

The similarity lies in the fact that you are acting brashly and knowing that you are likely to cause offense, and then acting as though the victim (i.e. the person offended) is to blame.

@ETWISTS

I feel as though usage of the word 'whooped' is inevitable when discussing a fighting game, and the words 'beat' and 'owned' have various legitimate meanings.

Also '****' has very specific negative connotations for a group of people who are already oppressed by society, and the offense caused by **** isn't limited to merely **** victims, but rather the people (mostly women) who are forced to live in fear, and wear 'acceptable' clothes, and behave in certain ways, as dictated by **** culture.

 

[Planet Piss]

The similarity lies in the fact that you are acting brashly and knowing that you are likely to cause offense, and then acting as though the victim (i.e. the person offended) is to blame.

@ETWISTS


Also '****' has very specific negative connotations for a group of people who are already oppressed by society, and the offense caused by **** isn't limited to merely **** victims, but rather the people (mostly women) who are forced to live in fear, and wear 'acceptable' clothes, and behave in certain ways, as dictated by **** culture.

I don't use words like "****" very often, if ever while playing Smash. I'm just the apologist.

And according to you, someone who takes offense at something is automatically the victim. (i.e. the person offended...). I would only agree on the grounds that the offense was intended in some way, or if a statement attempts to take fault away from a victimizer. Saying "she had it coming" is victim blaming. Saying "Mango ***** that guy" is not. It just so happens that some words, such as "****", have a larger populace that will be offended by its use, and apparently, this makes it objectively offensive. Like I said before: Everything is offensive to someone, somewhere. The contention seems to be that when there is a large enough population that takes offense to something, then it must be censored. This is an example of an argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy that asserts that something is more right because more people believe it. I'm not saying that you said this, but the only censorship arguments that ever arise come from examples of large minorities (or majorities) taking offense.

I'll not deny that **** culture is a pretty big problem, but the fact remains that language is completely subjective, and entirely context sensitive. Using **** in a non-literal context cannot magically cause real **** to become less abhorrent, just like saying "you just got KILLED" in a gaming context does not magically cause murder to become less abhorrent.

 

[HomeStylePie]

If you're going to say I'm wrong, please point out why specifically. I said "analogous", not equivalent.

Two strikes and you still haven't even stepped up to the plate.

My point was you're comparing apples to laser rifles, not just with your opening analogy, but also when you compared the word "****" to the words "jungle" and "blue;" it's just not relevant. Melee and sex do not lend themselves to comparison because melee is a game and sex is not. Melee is not something you can force someone to play, and even if you could, getting JV 5'd wouldn't be anything like having the most private part of your body invaded by someone else.

Personally, I don't take any offense, and I agree that even if someone does take offense they know what you're talking about when you say "****." The point I'm making (and I think the intention of this thread) is that you don't do yourself any favors throwing words like that around. Obviously we can't ban people from saying anything, but there's people out there who like video games and might get more into them if they didn't find gamers so intolerable and immature.

 

[Caretaker]

@Planet Piss

I'm not calling you a victim blamer in the slightest, I just thought there was an interesting parallel.

The point I am making with **** culture is that the word **** is especially offensive/horrific to -all women-and informs their way of life and affects their freedoms.

Firstly 'beat' or 'kill' are used literally, as smash bros is a -fighting game- where one player dies or is beaten. It's not the same deal as '****', which obviously doesn't exist in the game, but rather is used as a synonym for 'win'

Secondly, Murder is an unfortunate, horrific occurrence, but it does not specifically oppress and compromise the freedoms of an entire demographic and contribute to women's overall oppression compared to men.

Normalization of the term **** basically contributes to the oppression of women.

 

[Dark Hart]

Caretaker and homestylepie are getting ***** in this debate right now

 

[FoxBlaze71]

I don't use it; it turns away potential Smash players.

Smash isn't the only game to use it.

 

[Planet Piss]

@Planet Piss



Normalization of the term **** basically contributes to the oppression of women.

This will be my last response to this thread. I see this sentence as your reason behind this discussion, so I'll respond directly to it specifically.

**** does not only happen to only women. I know your contention is that **** is a form of oppression, which I hear quite frequently, but this is a conspiratorial accusation and holds little water in light of the science on the matter, which concludes much differently. As I said before (though I feel like I'm talking to myself here), Ignorance is what contributes to the oppression of a group of individuals, not words. Words do not have magical powers (or any objective meaning) whatsoever. Oppression can be correlated, I suppose, with permissive thinking of ACTUAL ****, and not FIGURATIVE ****. You think that the carelessness that Smashers show toward using the word '****' bolsters the prevalence of **** culture, and I showed you how this is a non-sequitor.

My point was you're comparing apples to laser rifles, not just with your opening analogy, but also when you compared the word "****" to the words "jungle" and "blue;" it's just not relevant. Melee and sex do not lend themselves to comparison because melee is a game and sex is not. Melee is not something you can force someone to play, and even if you could, getting JV 5'd wouldn't be anything like having the most private part of your body invaded by someone else.

Sorry for being a ****, but you are having an extremely difficult time wrapping your head around the concept of an analogy.

 

[HomeStylePie]

Oh

And you need I grow up

Caretaker and homestylepie are getting ***** in this debate right now

These are very strong points.

Sorry for being a ****, but you are having an extremely difficult time wrapping your head around the concept of an analogy.

If you must compare a game of melee to a round in the bedroom, then a four stocking would be equivalent to a premature ejaculator really enjoying himself: one of the consensual participants had a good time but it ended way too quickly for the other. But that's still a ****ty analogy because melee doesn't compare well to sex.

Edit: If you're done arguing though then I'll stop too.

 

[Massive]

This thread turned into an unwinnable argument as soon as the "**** culture" cat was released from its bag.

When a feminist buzzword like that gets uttered it is usually a flag for: "I'm now having an emotional argument with you, I'm not longer going to consider any logical points and instead repeat my earlier argument. I am above criticism."

As such everyone's argument is rendered moot because the arguer is no longer participating. They are effectively an infinitely-looping recording of the same talking points.

Someone please close this thread.

 

[=ArtH=]

I clicked this thread and my brain got *****.

 

[Pachinkosam]

I clicked this thread and my brain got *****.

i got *****!!
by this thread too

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Smash isn't the only game to use it.

lololol just saw your signature

ps. this thread is definitely not ****

 

[Battlecow]

Yo, using the word **** as casually as you guys do is going to make people think you're a bunch of cretins (which some of you aren't). I do it occasionally too, and all, and obviously we can't change people's vocabularies if they don't want them changed, but at the very least, we shouldn't let it fly on official streams and so forth.

IDK how offended anyone is by it, but it's definitely embarassing and childish.

So yeah, we can be socially functional human beings without being rabid feminists or politically correct jack***es. Keep that in mind.

 

[DerfMidWest]

hmm. I use the words ("gay" and "****") a lot out of habit and don't really realize I'm doing it sometimes.
I'm trying to use them less, just because I don't want to offend those few people in the melee scene who are actually offended by it...

But I do think that some people get a little too uptight about political correctness. Should we try to be a little more politically correct as a whole? yes. but we don't need to go around telling everybody that they can't speak the way that they do.

Now then, on our streams and stuff, we shouldn't be using these terms because streams should be kept more professional than if we were just talking while playing the match. Commentators represent our community, and should try to make us look a little more professional than we do.

 

[kevo]

As not to offend anyone, I started saying "homosexual" instead of "gay".

Then I realized that I completely missed the point lol

 

[Warhawk]

This thread turned into an unwinnable argument as soon as the "**** culture" cat was released from its bag.

When a feminist buzzword like that gets uttered it is usually a flag for: "I'm now having an emotional argument with you, I'm not longer going to consider any logical points and instead repeat my earlier argument. I am above criticism."

This is so true its sad. Also I didn't think the term "****" was used that frequently by anyone but Mang0 and maybe a few others... but I could be very wrong there. Besides I'm sure if someone in the community continually used the word **** and someone told them they were offended by it I'd bet they'd make a conscious effort to avoid using it around them, its not like they're purposely trying to hurt someone as opposed to express praise for what just happened in-game. People can be considerate, they don't need to be forced or told they can't say certain words. Not like they'd listen anyways.

 

[Jonas]

Is anyone here actually trying to make the point that, since the word "****" is such a widely used slang, people who use it will start to think that it's OK to sexually molest women?

I can kind of see the danger of people starting to giggle when they hear that someone they don't know got *****. The word starts to lose meaning when you and so many people in your community use it casually, but I do not take this as evidence of the creation of a culture that's OK with actual ****.

 

[MaskedMarth]

I think it has more to do with courtesy than language...suppose it were about dead baby jokes instead. You and your friends love dead baby jokes! You tell them all the time at your homes. But you feel a bit weird telling them when your grandparents visit, you don't shout them in the public park, and you certainly don't tell them to the poor parents of recently deceased baby.

Not many people have had a baby die, but lots of people have been bullied for being gay. To them, the pejorative "gay" is the color of their bullying; it flushes back pain. And lots of people have been *****. To them, the gamer "****" makes them feel like their trauma is being trivialized. We don't mean to offend them, but we could all be more sensitive in public and in our public image as Smashers and gamers.

Once we're in the basement, though, "****" and "gay" and dead baby jokes can come out in full force, and those who seek to change how you talk in private are rightly seen as invasive and perversely politically correct. But words can hurt and we should use them conscientiously in public.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Have you ever taken an anthropology course? Well, I'll just be brief about this point.

Different cultures behave differently. Sometimes a given culture will do something that you find disgusting in your own context, however, in their context it is perfectly acceptable and may even carry different meanings. It would not be okay for me to approach a tribe and tell them that they are bad people for sacrificing animals because I am a vegetarian. Morals, for the most part, should be judged within the culture's context.

Believe it or not, Smash has its own culture.

 

[t3h Icy]

The easiest replacement of "****" is "beast".

 

[Caretaker]

Have you ever taken an anthropology course? Well, I'll just be brief about this point.

Different cultures behave differently. Sometimes a given culture will do something that you find disgusting in your own context, however, in their context it is perfectly acceptable and may even carry different meanings. It would not be okay for me to approach a tribe and tell them that they are bad people for sacrificing animals because I am a vegetarian. Morals, for the most part, should be judged within the culture's context.

Believe it or not, Smash has its own culture.

Well the smash community is a subset of Western culture, rather than being completely removed from it.

A better analogy would be a small group of people living in a tribe who chose to act outside of the bounds of what was considered acceptable within the tribe, yet still expected that their behaviours would be considered acceptable in the context of the tribe, just because the behaviours were acceptable to the members of the small group.

 

[gghhh3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84IWcivIo2E

 

[Jonas]

The easiest replacement of "****" is "beast".

Or "body", which I've always quite liked.
(as in "to body" or "he got bodied").

Have you ever taken an anthropology course? Well, I'll just be brief about this point.

Different cultures behave differently. Sometimes a given culture will do something that you find disgusting in your own context, however, in their context it is perfectly acceptable and may even carry different meanings. It would not be okay for me to approach a tribe and tell them that they are bad people for sacrificing animals because I am a vegetarian. Morals, for the most part, should be judged within the culture's context.

Believe it or not, Smash has its own culture.

I do not deny this, but does our Smash culture find **** "perfectly acceptable"?
Also, Masked Math speaks the truth. It may be "perfectly acceptable" for us to use the WORD within the context of our group, but it would demonstrate poor social skill or situational awareness if you use the word among uninitiated.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Only really, really stupid people get offended by things that aren't directed at them.

True facts.

Or "body", which I've always quite liked.
(as in "to body" or "he got bodied").

This offends me because it implies that one body is being pressed upon another, which could be considered analogous to sexual intercourse, a taboo topic.