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2nd coming of christ. are you ready?

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HyugaRicdeau

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Slippi.gg
DRZ#283
Ah yes, inevitably theists confront atheists with the argument of "faith." That science neglects faith as a method of learning truth about the universe. Let's investigate that argument. Faith is a sort of belief without proof based on personal experience, of "just knowing" based on our feelings. The problem with faith as a method of discovery of truth about the world is that leads to different, even explicitly contradictory, conclusions about things like "God" or cosmogony. Not to mention, that you also necessarily lend creedence to the people who use faith to commit acts like suicide bombings. They have faith that they will be rewarded for their actions. Faith has led them to believe that what they are doing is "good," yet surely you would regard it as "bad." But you and the suicide bomber are using precisely the same argument form (faith) to arrive at your conclusions. Point being, if an argument form can arrive at two conclusions that are so diametrically opposed to one other, it is not a coherent or consistent line of thinking. So it seems that you can use "faith" to arrive at nearly any conclusion imaginable, it is completely unreliable as far as a guide to the real truth of the universe or anything for that matter.

Delorted, for as long as I've been here you seem to agrue with people over what atheism and agnosticism are. Every time this comes up, you keep shouting things like "atheism is necessarily strong and therefore a belief," which is simply not true. Atheism is a 'non-position' regarding the existence of God (unless you want to include "strong atheism" which IS a position). Agnosticism is an explicit assertion or position about the NATURE of God. If you're an agnostic, you are an atheist also, though not a "strong" one. But an atheist is not necessarily an agnostic. It is NOT the case that an atheist says "no" and an agnostic says "I don't know." An atheist says "I don't know," and an agnostic says "it is impossible to know."
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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Proof is science contradicts the Bible. The big bang happened, and there's the theory that the Universe/time has always existed. Evolution created Humans, not God. Contradictions of the Bible within itself, making God not omnipotent&omnibenevolent thus going against the idea of God and thus contradicting his existence.
Just because some parts of the Bible don't make a lot of sense to some means God doesn't exist? Why is the Bible an end-all in a debate? You can still believe in God and Jesus Christ without even having a religion.

And it's pretty freaking obvious evolution occurred, theists all around are accepting that. But what you should be able to recognize is where these beasts came from that humans evolved from. There is a very long chain of evolved species throughout billions of years. But then.. it stops. Where did that one organism come from? In fact, how did this one organism have the EXACT and PERFECT genetic make up and shape to start a civilization where we are now? I find it hard to believe the concept of life just appears out of thin air... or in this case there wasn't even air to speak of.

That brings me to the big bang.. sure.. it happened. Where did such a force come from to cause such a huge phenomenon? Dimensions? Where did those come from?

Back to evolution. I believe this occurred. Why though, do humans have a conscience and the beasts before us do not? How is this ability to know right from wrong suddenly instilled in us once we are evolved? There's no way it's just an "evolved trait", i'll tell you that.
 

JonaDiaper

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if you believe in God and Jesus Christ then you should also believe in the Bible, and in the Bible it says we were created. There was no evolution. so i really dont understand how you can believe in God and Jesus but still believe in evolution.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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You're doing a bad job of backing up your beliefs. You don't seem very informed by a lot of things. I'm a Catholic but I don't believe in every little thing they teach us. I often converse with Priests and religion professors about things I'm unsure about.

And I can assure you, evolution and religion can co-exist.
 

JonaDiaper

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it depends on what religion you are. im a christian pentacostal.

i believe in the Bible. i dont believe in the theory of evolution as the Bible tells me we were created.

and why should i have to back up my beliefs when the Bible does it for me.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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Why do you take the Bible as 100% accurate? It's a great book, but is by no means all correct. One easy example is it stated that our world was created only a few millennia ago. Science has proven that this is obviously false.
 

Amide

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Also, though the guy was booted, Evolution is only a theory because we do not understand a few concepts of it, it's not "well, we think this is the case so here." No. Learn words.
Still, to argue for creationism because evolution is a theory is quite laughable. If evolution is an idea, well then what would you call creationism?

___
@JonaDiaper

We can't actually talk to him or hear him. So everything that god 'says' would be entirely subjective. We have no proof of what he says.
 

manhunter098

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yea but who made science man or God?

i believe in the Bible because it was inspired by God. Who would you rather believe, scientists or God?
I would rather have you believe yourself. You are capable of making decisions based on logic, given the facts you can construct the truth out of them. Make all your decisions based on what you can observe and discern to be true.
 

RDK

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You cannot say definitively that God does not exist. If you say that you believe he does not exist, you are stating you believe in something that has no evidence to support your claim, thus you are just as bad as the theists you mock.

However, for true epiphanies, you need to get off this forum. That's why I suggested thinking for yourself.

You need to keep in mind several things:

1. God is not necessarily all-knowing or all-powerful

2. Heaven / Hell are requisites of Christianity - not IWontGetOverTheDam-ism

3. Wisest is he who knows he does not know
Learn your fallacies. What I said does not constitute fallacious reasoning.

If you don't believe in a higher power, and only that, you are agnostic. Stop calling yourself atheist; it's a misuse of the term.

When I say think for yourself, you don't need to yell at me that you enjoy your independence. Exercise it more freely. Let your thoughts cultivate. Don't dismiss thoughts about God to be ridiculous. You are not crazy for suggesting a possible creator. Whoever does that is an idiot. To be properly educated on the subject, you need to understand and entertain both positions. What results is ultimately a state of ignorance.
I call myself an atheist to pretty much every Joe Blow that comes onto these types of discussions, even though I, and pretty much every other person here who espouses to be an "atheist", is, in actuality, an agnostic. It's too ridiculously repetitive to have to explain to each and every person why I'm actually an agnostic by default and not really an atheist, and, for all intents and purposes, it suits me much better to just say I'm an atheist, especially when dealing with the kind of Christian tripe that comes in and out of this Debate Hall like the common cold.

It seems as though you already know everything I just said, so your post was kind of beyond the point. I'm all for making another thread so everyone can address these kind of questions though.
 

RDK

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Just because some parts of the Bible don't make a lot of sense to some means God doesn't exist? Why is the Bible an end-all in a debate? You can still believe in God and Jesus Christ without even having a religion.
That doesn't make any sense at all. That's like saying you believe in Allah and Muhammed but don't follow the Koran.

And it's pretty freaking obvious evolution occurred, theists all around are accepting that. But what you should be able to recognize is where these beasts came from that humans evolved from. There is a very long chain of evolved species throughout billions of years. But then.. it stops. Where did that one organism come from? In fact, how did this one organism have the EXACT and PERFECT genetic make up and shape to start a civilization where we are now? I find it hard to believe the concept of life just appears out of thin air... or in this case there wasn't even air to speak of.
Sigh.

Life didn't magically come out of thin air. In fact, when what we call the "first life" came about, it probably wouldn't even fit our definition of what life is today. It didn't happen in the blink of an eye; in fact, it probably took thousands or hundreds of thousands of years for "life" to develop into the form we know today. The argument you're using is ridiculous and shows you know nothing about the topic at hand.


That brings me to the big bang.. sure.. it happened. Where did such a force come from to cause such a huge phenomenon? Dimensions? Where did those come from?
I don't know, but neither do you. Nobody does. That doesn't mean you can go and assume an invisible man in the sky did it.

Back to evolution. I believe this occurred. Why though, do humans have a conscience and the beasts before us do not? How is this ability to know right from wrong suddenly instilled in us once we are evolved? There's no way it's just an "evolved trait", i'll tell you that.
In the natural world, there is no "right" and "wrong". We have a conscience because we're higher, sentient beings. There are a lot of things about the human mind we don't know yet, but having a conscience is in no way evidence that there's a god. The concscience is an evolutionary product. And even that's beside the point; not even everyone has a conscience.

What's "right" and "wrong" are invariably attached to the society you grow up in. If you were brought up being told that murder was right, you would have no qualms about murdering people, because your mommy and daddy said it was okay.


yea but who made science man or God?

i believe in the Bible because it was inspired by God. Who would you rather believe, scientists or God?
Scientists, considering the latter choice doesn't exist.
 

IWontGetOverTheDam

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yea but who made science man or God?
This is why you literally can't have a debate between theists and atheists. If a person believes in God, faith is the only thing they have to go on. And since you can't disprove God, the argument comes to a standstill.

Scientists, considering the latter choice doesn't exist.
Hey oh! Also, point in case. JD believes God exists, RDK doesn't. JD can't use facts to prove his case, so the argument can't go anywhere.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
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That doesn't make any sense at all. That's like saying you believe in Allah and Muhammed but don't follow the Koran.

You can't believe that there is a God if you don't practice a religion? Whatever you say.

Sigh.

Life didn't magically come out of thin air. In fact, when what we call the "first life" came about, it probably wouldn't even fit our definition of what life is today. It didn't happen in the blink of an eye; in fact, it probably took thousands or hundreds of thousands of years for "life" to develop into the form we know today. The argument you're using is ridiculous and shows you know nothing about the topic at hand.


You avoided my question. You just put it off as "ridiculous" and I "know nothing."

I don't know, but neither do you. Nobody does. That doesn't mean you can go and assume an invisible man in the sky did it.

Why not? There's no other explanation, and there may never be one.

In the natural world, there is no "right" and "wrong". We have a conscience because we're higher, sentient beings. There are a lot of things about the human mind we don't know yet, but having a conscience is in no way evidence that there's a god. The concscience is an evolutionary product. And even that's beside the point; not even everyone has a conscience.

What's "right" and "wrong" are invariably attached to the society you grow up in. If you were brought up being told that murder was right, you would have no qualms about murdering people, because your mommy and daddy said it was okay.


That's just a form of brainwashing IMO, everyone is born with a conscience and it never actually "leaves" us. But if we are raised thinking one thing is the "right" thing, why wouldn't you follow through with it?

And I think you are overlooking the spirituality of the concept of a conscience, but I'm not going to bother explaining it with someone who doesn't believe in any spiritual beings, my attempt would be futile.


Comments in pink, and the last comment brings me to what a previous poster touched on. You can't debate with someone and attempt to convvince them if they strongly believed in something for many years. It won't work, this kind of debate will ALWAYS end in a stand still.
 

RDK

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You can't believe that there is a God if you don't practice a religion? Whatever you say.
What I meant was that there's no reason to believe in the Christian God and Jesus if you don't even follow the Bible. Doesn't make sense.

You avoided my question. You just put it off as "ridiculous" and I "know nothing."
I answered your question by saying there's no reason to assume "Goddidit" just because we don't know. Let science fill the gaps, not mysterious deities.

Why not? There's no other explanation, and there may never be one.
Why not? That's like asking "Why even continue science?" The whole point is to learn about our universe, not to shrug off potential knowledge just because we attribute perfectly natural things to nonexistant deities.


That's just a form of brainwashing IMO, everyone is born with a conscience and it never actually "leaves" us. But if we are raised thinking one thing is the "right" thing, why wouldn't you follow through with it?
You would follow through with it; that's the point. As animals, we act on our convictions, or what we know helps us to survive. That's basically what the conscience is, except taken a few degrees higher. No, we aren't born with something that tells us what's "right" and "wrong". Go back and re-read my post.

And I think you are overlooking the spirituality of the concept of a conscience, but I'm not going to bother explaining it with someone who doesn't believe in any spiritual beings, my attempt would be futile.
Please do explain, but only if it has grounding in reality. I don't care to listen to people's subjective fantasies about God speaking to them.

Comments in pink, and the last comment brings me to what a previous poster touched on. You can't debate with someone and attempt to convvince them if they strongly believed in something for many years. It won't work, this kind of debate will ALWAYS end in a stand still.
Exactly. You can't reason someone out of something if they weren't reasoned into it in the first place.

I'm talking about brainwashed religious people if you don't get my drift.
 

cman

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Back to evolution. I believe this occurred. Why though, do humans have a conscience and the beasts before us do not? How is this ability to know right from wrong suddenly instilled in us once we are evolved? There's no way it's just an "evolved trait", i'll tell you that.
Do you have proof for this assertion? I assume that you do not.

In any case, several studies have revealed that empathy probably isn't a uniquely human atttribute. Empathy can be closely related to a sense of right vs wrong, so animals probably have a basic form of a "conscience" as well.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=do-animals-feel-empathy

You shouldn't make blind assertions in a debate hall. Someone will always challenge them.
 

Crimson King

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it depends on what religion you are. im a christian pentacostal.

i believe in the Bible. i dont believe in the theory of evolution as the Bible tells me we were created.

and why should i have to back up my beliefs when the Bible does it for me.
Ok, then WHICH creation story is true?


Bible.com said:
1First God made heaven & earth
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.
4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
9 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, "Let the earth put forth vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, upon the earth." And it was so.
12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so.
16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth,
18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the firmament of the heavens."
21 So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the cattle according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."
29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
On this one, man and woman are created simultaneously. For extra credit, explain why in verse 26, the gods refer to themselves as plural.

Bible.com said:
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done.
3 So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all his work which he had done in creation.
--- Shifts story ---
4 These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up--for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;
6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground--
7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and there it divided and became four rivers.
11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 and the gold of that land is good; bdellium and onyx stone are there.
13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which flows around the whole land of Cush.
14 And the name of the third river is Tigris, which flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may freely eat of every tree of the garden;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die."
18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."
19 So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name.
20 The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him.
21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh;
22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."
24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.
25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.
This would be the second where Adam was created first then Eve from Adam. God, for whatever reason a magic deity needs to, rests on 7th day too.

So, which is correct? The story shifts at Verse 4 to the more commonly known creation story, but it is undeniable that the "book of god's word" has a major contradiction on the first two pages.

Also, you have yet to rectify the fact that Exodus never happen.


Still, to argue for creationism because evolution is a theory is quite laughable. If evolution is an idea, well then what would you call creationism?
If evolution is just a theory, creationism is a hypothesis (Richard Dawkins). While science has 99.9% proven evolution as the origin of life, religion has not proven even 1% that creationism was the origin of life. See, Jona, that's where you are getting confused. Evolution, the process, is a proven fact. The "Theory of Evolution," refers to it being the sole purpose of how we ascended order in species, not if it exists or not.
 

Aesir

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Del really kinda brought up a point I don't think anyone really looked to deeply into. Maybe I was the only one? I do that a lot.

But When it comes to religion it really makes god sound extraordinary kinda like the admin of the universe he can do anything and everything. However the more I see Del respond to arguments against god. The more I think he believes in a god with limited powers (I could be wrong). Or perhaps a deistic god.

Which I think you can make an argument for such a god. Mind you not everyone would accept such a thing I know I don't simply because I have a hard time accepting something that can't be falsified.

So in essence I think it really comes down to this.

Gods based on religious practice (personal gods): don't exist.

Anything else is open to interpretation? possible.
 

aeghrur

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You can't believe that there is a God if you don't practice a religion? Whatever you say.


You avoided my question. You just put it off as "ridiculous" and I "know nothing."

Why not? There's no other explanation, and there may never be one.

That's just a form of brainwashing IMO, everyone is born with a conscience and it never actually "leaves" us. But if we are raised thinking one thing is the "right" thing, why wouldn't you follow through with it?

And I think you are overlooking the spirituality of the concept of a conscience, but I'm not going to bother explaining it with someone who doesn't believe in any spiritual beings, my attempt would be futile.


Comments in pink, and the last comment brings me to what a previous poster touched on. You can't debate with someone and attempt to convvince them if they strongly believed in something for many years. It won't work, this kind of debate will ALWAYS end in a stand still.
Ugh, I hate this. >_< Quote right please. T_T that little nitpicking aside, lol.
Okay... so if you believe in God, you must worship him in some way correct? It then becomes a religion. =/ Or a cult or something.
How did the universe start? Well, there's this: http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html
And tehre was also the Steven Hawking's infinite time theory or w/e stated on some other thread, lol.
Conscience huh? Well, I doubt we're actually born with one. It's more like, nurture. Society has nurtured us and made us have a conscience. If you have a tribe brutally slaughtering people, and you live with them, see it everyday, it no longer becomes inhumane to you. It's just another everyday event and you wouldn't have a conscience... yet... we don't do that. Instead, we arrest/jail those who murder/steal/kill, etc. so we have grown up as believing those things are bad. it's not that we were born with a conscience, rather, society made our conscience.
In the end, you are right though, these debates always end in a stalemate. =/ But it's still fun. xD

:093:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
The difference, Hyuga, is that I openly entertain the idea that there is a God. I don't know if you do, but I hold that possibility to be extremely plausible. While there's nothing wrong with showing how naive Christians can be, I think it's important to also mention alternatives other than disproving Christianity.

Agnosticism says it's impossible to know anything - right now. Obviously if God were to be proven I wouldn't say, "it's a hoax, God's existence is impossible to define." That's why when I say that when you think critically upon the idea of agnosticism, it's essentially an on-the-fence position. What I'm arguing is that most of you "atheists" are on the fence, for even Richard Dawkins himself states that he finds it hard to imagine someone who would deny God's existence if it were proven.

You are all probably 6 out of 7 on Dawkin's scale. I'm trying to help you reach at least a 4.

Aesir and RDK, thank you for understanding my points. It actually makes this effort feel worthwhile. Too often I waste my time saying the same thing over and over again to be actively forgotten about by most of our senior members.

For the record, I would classify myself as a 2 on Dawkin's scale.
 

aeghrur

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Basically, your trying to convert us from a de facto atheist into what normally qualifies under agnostic?
So your trying to convert our religion again, great. Lol. That's what this thread is for. >_>

Seriously, we're not 2 out of 7 though. We're around 6 out of 7 considering we believe there's a VERY low possibility of a god/God existing. You got the scale wrong. 1=pure theist, 7=pure atheist. 3-5=technically agnostic. 2=theist, 6=atheist. Obviously there's doubt, doesn't mean we cannot be athiest though... As we still don't believe in a God. And not all theists are 100% sure of a god, doesn't mean they're not theists. =/

:093:
 

Mr.Fakeman

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Messages
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I understand the major contradictions between Christianity and Science, but I look at the biological studies of animals, it has been proven by archeologists that there is evolution because of the discoveries of fossils, bones and carcases of species that even have nearly the same structures to our modern day animals. In my opinion, there is no doubt of animals evolving. Especially when there is more evidence lying around, (sorry for getting off topic, just wanted to point that out) now for the Christianity part. According to the Bible, God made the earth in 7 days, I doubt that the DNA of first species ever would have not bonded with other genes. A simple analogy is, if a Negrito intercoursed with a pure white American then no doubt their offspring would be brown or caucasian. (I'm trying to explain and 'entertain' as DeLoRtEd1 said, both sides with a sound explanation as best as I can at the moment)
 
D

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Aeghrur, thank you for correcting me on the scale. It's been a while
 

cman

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The difference, Hyuga, is that I openly entertain the idea that there is a God. I don't know if you do, but I hold that possibility to be extremely plausible. While there's nothing wrong with showing how naive Christians can be, I think it's important to also mention alternatives other than disproving Christianity.

Agnosticism says it's impossible to know anything - right now. Obviously if God were to be proven I wouldn't say, "it's a hoax, God's existence is impossible to define." That's why when I say that when you think critically upon the idea of agnosticism, it's essentially an on-the-fence position. What I'm arguing is that most of you "atheists" are on the fence, for even Richard Dawkins himself states that he finds it hard to imagine someone who would deny God's existence if it were proven.

You are all probably 6 out of 7 on Dawkin's scale. I'm trying to help you reach at least a 4.

Aesir and RDK, thank you for understanding my points. It actually makes this effort feel worthwhile. Too often I waste my time saying the same thing over and over again to be actively forgotten about by most of our senior members.

For the record, I would classify myself as a 2 on Dawkin's scale.
I would argue that six is could be classified as what you consider agnostic. I understand that it is impossible to know. Obviously if god were proven, my position would change. So there are your two points. The only difference between your definition and my stance is that since it can not be known, I see no reason to assume any crazy concoction is correct. Essentially, since I see no logical reason to believe any of them, I currently take stock in none.

Even if I were to start calling myself a 4, neither my thought process nor my lifestyle would change, so what is the point of your crusade?
 

Firus

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i know you think hes there, just not willing to risk your time. ever give God a test drive?
ever asked him to do something to prove he is there? pray to God one of these days.
ask him to prove himself. im pretty darn sure he'll be more then happy to do it.
Yes, I actually have. On more than one occasion. And nothing has happened.

Also, to your original point; if God is so loving and forgiving, why is it that he's going to condemn people to hell for not believing in him if they weren't given any proof? If God is so loving, why should people be SCARED into believing in him? "Believe in him or you'll be condemned to an eternity in hell!"
Doesn't make sense to me.

The difference, Hyuga, is that I openly entertain the idea that there is a God. I don't know if you do, but I hold that possibility to be extremely plausible. While there's nothing wrong with showing how naive Christians can be, I think it's important to also mention alternatives other than disproving Christianity.

Agnosticism says it's impossible to know anything - right now. Obviously if God were to be proven I wouldn't say, "it's a hoax, God's existence is impossible to define." That's why when I say that when you think critically upon the idea of agnosticism, it's essentially an on-the-fence position. What I'm arguing is that most of you "atheists" are on the fence, for even Richard Dawkins himself states that he finds it hard to imagine someone who would deny God's existence if it were proven.
You make a good point. I would classify myself as an Agnostic -- I don't have proof either way, and without proof, I've got nothing. I'm just that type of person.
 
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I guess I'll just quote myself from my DWYP thread:
me said:
Encouraging more and more atheists to accept agnosticism can only be a good thing. Because agnosticism ideally is not critical of either theism or atheism, what equates is the promotion of higher levels of tolerance, not only across the religious divide but within internal communities as well, because obviously both a Christian and a Muslim have many theological differences.

With agnosticism, we are united in our ignorance, which is easily much better than fundamentalist single-mindedness. Promoting agnosticism is beneficial to the world community, as it encourages personal reflection, freedom of thought, and highly stimulating discussions on the topic of God’s existence. It is clear that in many cases, having an open mind is extremely healthy.
 

cman

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I guess I'll just quote myself from my DWYP thread:Stuff
I don't buy that explanation. Explain how being a six prevents anything you mentioned. Especially the implied open minded part, as calling me anything but open minded is laughable knowing what I do about myself. I don't plan to explain that here though. The only potentially dangerous views to society are the 1s and 7s as far as i can tell. Dawkin's thing is a bit rediculous though.

Also, do you not see the hypocrisy of saying that atheists should become agnostic while you consider yourself a 2?
 

RDK

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Basically, your trying to convert us from a de facto atheist into what normally qualifies under agnostic?
So your trying to convert our religion again, great. Lol. That's what this thread is for. >_>

Seriously, we're not 2 out of 7 though. We're around 6 out of 7 considering we believe there's a VERY low possibility of a god/God existing. You got the scale wrong. 1=pure theist, 7=pure atheist. 3-5=technically agnostic. 2=theist, 6=atheist. Obviously there's doubt, doesn't mean we cannot be athiest though... As we still don't believe in a God. And not all theists are 100% sure of a god, doesn't mean they're not theists. =/

:093:
Atheism and agnosticism are not religions.
 

AltF4

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I get what you're saying, Del, about promoting Agnosticism as a form of promoting tolerance. It, in general, promotes shifting people toward the middle.

I just find the Agnostic viewpoint kind of a non-viewpoint. Some try to see it like a Socratic Wisdom sort of deal, but I see it more of a cop-out. Especially in the debate hall, you know? I mean, who comes into a debate and says "I have no position on this subject!". Why would you bother getting into the debate if so.


But mostly, I just don't believe that anyone can really be an agnostic. I think it's human nature to take a side. I just don't think it's entirely possible to say "Well, we can never know the answer, so I won't bother trying to guess!". Some part of you on the inside has a guess. Even if you only admit to being a Agnostic because it's more easily defensible.
 

Mewter

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now lets say you knew 50% of everything. what's the chance you can be wrong. 50%.
Let's use 100 pots of soup as an example. Your point is unclear.
It depends what you mean by this. Do you mean that you know all about only 50 of the soup pots, or you know only 50% of the details of every one of the soup pots? If the former is true, then we know a heck of a lot of stuff about the soup, and we don't need to know everything in the universe to say that, say, hydrogen and oxygen molecules can bond to form water. Knowing all about 50 units out of 100 soup pots leaves you full of knowledge about 50 units, but totally ignorant of the other 50. This contradicts your argument, since it depends on whether we know much about the bible or not and it happens to fall into the 50 we know about. If the latter is true, then we know only about 50% of each individual soup pot, but nothing about the other half of every one. Although we have a wide variety of knowledge, we know only 50% about each individual unit itself. This doesn't really work because it is not true for everything, and we know more about the bible and how life progresses than only 50%.

Summary:
Former example: You know all about 50 things/100
Latter example: You know 50% of 1thing/100 times.
You either know all about 50 whole units, or a half about 100 individual units.
Counterexample: We either know everything about something or nothing about it if we choose the first one. If we know just something about it, then it is useless to say all or nothing. If the second were true, then we wouldn't be sure whether this sentence were existent or not. After all, you said 50/50.
Besides, neither of these are true in real life, so forget it.

now you say there is no God and that the Bible is just another book, what is the chance your wrong? 50%
You're treating it like a dice game, here. Your example does not work with anything, and when replacing "bible" with another object, becomes completely obsolete. We say that bicycles use no gasoline and have two wheels. According to your example, we would only be 50% sure of this. We know this statement to be true. Because of this, your argument does not make sense.
now lets say you die. and there IS a God. and you face him on Judgment Day, as the Bible says.

what will you tell him? "oh i just didnt think you existed" , and since God is a just God, will you think he will just let you enter heaven? or will he send you to hell?

a just judge would have to do the right thing, give you what you deserve.

but God gives you lots of chances to believe in him, follow him, and live the life he wants you to live. not just a "good" life. he sent his son, Jesus Christ to save us. from what you ask? eternal suffering. aka hell. remember there is a 50% chance hell exists.
If he does know everything and controls everything, then he will know we are going to hell if we are and we have NO say in it. If he controls everything and knows all, then we are doomed from the start.
Then again, the human standards of morality might not be true since there is a 50% chance we have not read the bible. You contradict yourself there.


By the way, I know this is kind of late into the thread, but I just had to get this over with.
 

Reaver197

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Alright, I'd like to deal with this whole Agnosticism thing that has popped up. Agnosticism is not defined as impossibility to know anything, agnosticism is a stance you take when you currently lack enough evidence to commit to any sort of opinion on an issue. Take whether life exists on other planets. I would have to say that I'm agnostic about the issue, because we do not currently have enough evidence to say whether we're the only planet in the universe with life, or that life does indeed exist on other planets.

Agnosticism is not about taking a position but from the abstaining from taking a position on a particular issue. If you're arguing for people to adopt agnosticism, you can't really be truly agnostic yourself.

Now, as for agnosticism as applied to god(s), it is tempting to be lead into that position. After all, there isn't any direct evidence that a god does not exist, right? But, if you think about it more deeply, you'll see that there are some flaws in taking such a position.

If a god (or gods) never actually existed, you'll obviously never find any tangible evidence of them not existing. There will never be anything that will explicitly say "by the way, god doesn't exist, I invalidate it". You just can't find evidence to prove the nonexistence of something, because its very nonexistence will mean that there will be no evidence pertaining to it, especially, might I add, with such amorphously defined beings as gods tend to be.

Now, if you're agnostic because you're waiting on some evidence to come forth that ultimately and undeniably repudiates the existence of any god, you're going to be waiting forever. We'll never be able to prove without a shadow of a doubt that gods don't exist, especially with religious people willing to undergo huge mental exertions and contortions to somehow allow the possibility of their god to exist.

Instead, what you have to do in a case like this, is look at what evidence we do have, and see how that affects the probability of gods existing. Naturally, due to the indirect and inferential nature of such an analysis, you'll never be able to truly achieve 100% or 0%. It will give a good clear indication though, if you're willing and able to see and understand the evidence and what it implies.

So, with scientific theories (by the way, if anyone still thinks that a scientific "theory" is simply postulated opinion, please read this) such as evolution, and our current understanding of physics, biology, astronomy, geology, and psychology, the evidence makes it highly unlikely that gods exist, to the degree that it is safest and best to assert that they do not.

Therefore, holding a position of agnosticism either generally means a person has not fully studied or comprehended the evidence, is moderately religiously inclined themselves but has difficulty reconciling that belief with current knowledge, or is truly tired of or is disinterested in the discussion of the possibility of gods existing or not.

There is also the drive to pick agnosticism to go under the guise of being "tolerant" or "open-minded" and "unbiased". Sadly, this is not the case with agnosticism. Being tolerant or open-minded is being able to accept and understand of a position or piece of evidence, regardless of whether it goes along with what you wanted to believe, but that is only if the position or piece of evidence is true or factually backed up. It isn't being tolerant or open-minded when you give equal footage to a position that has no solid evidence to back its position to another position that does, especially when they're at odds with one another. Instead, that's just being either plain dishonest, intellectually unrigorous, or ignorant. You do not sacrifice the facts and the truth value of a position or statement just in the name of trying to be "fair". People have to learn that you must first fact-check and critically analyze that positions being extolled, and only once one has ascertained their level of truth will you then worry about comparing and contrasting them with equal footing.

For example, if someone claims that the moon is made out of cheese, yet someone else claims it is made out of rock, you don't simply go "well, each position is plausible, therefore everyone must accept them as equally possible." No, you should go check the data, get rock samples from the moon, see the evidence, check the facts, and then understand which position is true and which is false.

To claim that atheists are as fundamentalist as some of their religious opponents are is not only incredibly misleading, but shows that you don't truly understand what it means to be an atheist. As an atheist, I know exactly what it is that forms my opinion and, most importantly, what will make me change my mind; evidence. If the evidence showed strongly that a god does exist, I would change my position to accommodate it, regardless of how personally I felt about it. However, on the other hand, religious fundamentalists believe what they want to believe and will not allow anything to change their mind nor contradict what they believe. Despite the overwhelming evidence against their belief, they will continue to believe. That is what makes a fundamentalist truly a fundamentalist; their complete and utter devotion to an idea/belief from which nothing will sway them from believing in.

To go a bit into what is an altogether longer discussion, religious agnosticism also gives credence and ability for people to believe what they want to believe irregardless of religion. I wrote quite a lengthy post about it in the other thread, but in hopefully a much shorter form of it, what people believe has to be and should be tempered by facts and evidence. We, as intelligent, moral, and responsible people cannot allow for people to build up a system of beliefs willy nilly, irregardless of evidence. Such irrational beliefs are what lead to suicide bombers, the Inquisition, and 9/11. It is my personal opinion that the world would be a more humane, intelligent, and moral without religion.

If want to read into deeper why I believe as such, I highly recommend reading Sam Harris' book End of Faith.
 

Mewter

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yea but who made science man or God?

i believe in the Bible because it was inspired by God. Who would you rather believe, scientists or God?
Scientists use science, and observe nature to help explain why nature is as it is. If something doesn't turn put as they thought it to be in nature or experiments, they accept it anyways. The bible is contradicted by nature itself. So who would you rather trust? Nature or a book? Something describing the world 200 years ago or a modern observation of existence? Apples didn't float before Newton discovered the laws of gravity. The sun didn't start when Einstein discovered that one equation that led us to the atomic bomb. And you don't get a disease as soon as you are diagnosed with it. What we discover today is of more importance then what we discover in the past, and because we have better instruments of investigation, I think we should trust them more than what we thought in more primitive times.
Edit:
You need to give some basis and ground for your opinion. So far, all I've seen is the same thing again and again.
 

DtJ Jungle

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JonaDiaper is allowed to post in here now? oye. Anyway I agree with Mewter. Science has grounds and explanations. God is all about Faith. I think society is to the point where we have to put both into perspective and look at facts instead of just blind belief.
 

JonaDiaper

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lol how'd you get in here??

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

this sums up faith pretty well dont it? its from the Bible btw. Hebrews 11:1

now faith is believing right? the Bible says in John 3:35 and 36

The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

this is what i believe in. its not that hard to believe in him.
 

RDK

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What's the point of believing in things that we have evidence for when you just go around believing in things we have absolutely no evidence for?

According to you the existence of God and the existence of gravity are on the same level.

And BTW, you're using circular reasoning in your post. You assume the Bible is even correct to begin with.
 

JonaDiaper

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Ok, then WHICH creation story is true?




On this one, man and woman are created simultaneously. For extra credit, explain why in verse 26, the gods refer to themselves as plural.

The Father, and The Son...The Holy Spirit does not have a physical form so God said "us" meaning him and his son. who are still 1




This would be the second where Adam was created first then Eve from Adam. God, for whatever reason a magic deity needs to, rests on 7th day too.

God gave us the example of reasting on the 7th day, the sabbath am i right?

thats why he did it.


So, which is correct? The story shifts at Verse 4 to the more commonly known creation story, but it is undeniable that the "book of god's word" has a major contradiction on the first two pages.

i seriously think you have it all mixed up. the first "story" was the introduction and basically like how everything happened in a whole get it?

the second "story" is where he goes into more detail, explaning how he made man. and then women.

i think that people try a little too hard to find contradictions in the Bible.


Also, you have yet to rectify the fact that Exodus never happen.

I dont know to answer this since i wasnt there to know wether or not it happened.


If evolution is just a theory, creationism is a hypothesis (Richard Dawkins). While science has 99.9% proven evolution as the origin of life, religion has not proven even 1% that creationism was the origin of life. See, Jona, that's where you are getting confused. Evolution, the process, is a proven fact. The "Theory of Evolution," refers to it being the sole purpose of how we ascended order in species, not if it exists or not.

sorry i answered in the quote but i didnt know how else to respond to it and get everything answered.

and can you give me like a link or something where it says Evolution, the process, is proven?
i really didnt know they had proven it. TO ME it seems pretty impossible as we were made he way wer are, according to my beliefs of course.
 

JonaDiaper

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What's the point of believing in things that we have evidence for when you just go around believing in things we have absolutely no evidence for?

According to you the existence of God and the existence of gravity are on the same level.

And BTW, you're using circular reasoning in your post. You assume the Bible is even correct to begin with.
hmm gravity?

how about God and air. i like that better.

cant see air, but we know its there.

God is as real as air to me.
 

RDK

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hmm gravity?

how about God and air. i like that better.

cant see air, but we know its there.

God is as real as air to me.
Why?

We have good reason to believe that air is all around us. You have no good reason to believe that God exists, other than to suit your fancy and further your own self-delusions.

And please don't argue about whether or not evolution as a process has been proven. That's just plain ignorance.
 
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