2nd coming of christ. are you ready?

[JonaDiaper]

you know alot of people just refuse to believe in God. but thats ok, we have a choice.
now i once heard this example.

answer this. do you know everything? can you answer any and every question with 100% accuracy?

your answer will be no.

now lets say you knew 50% of everything. what's the chance you can be wrong. 50%.

now you say there is no God and that the Bible is just another book, what is the chance your wrong? 50%

now lets say you die. and there IS a God. and you face him on Judgement Day, as the Bible says.

what will you tell him? "oh i just didnt think you existed" , and since God is a just God, will you think he will just let you enter heaven? or will he send you to hell?

a just judge would have to do the right thing, give you what you deserve.

but God gives you lots of chances to believe in him, follow him, and live the life he wants you to live. not just a "good" life. he sent his son, Jesus Christ to save us. from what you ask? eternal suffering. aka hell. remember there is a 50% chance hell exists.

the chances God give you end either when you die, or when Christ comes again. Then again you could be saved during the Great Tribulation, but you would have to stand up for Christ until you died.
and that could be by torture, that could be by starvation, that could be you getting your head cut off.

who would let that happen to themselves? no one. in order to eat during the Great Tribulation you will need the mark of the beast, 666. and once you get the mark on you, your done. condemned.


Back to the example:

is it worth the 50% chance of going to hell because you just didnt want to believe in God?

do you understand that hell is eternal suffering? then again there is just a 50% chance there is a hell right? who cares, our lives are riding on the equivalent of a coin flip.

its your life. your coin toss, you get to choose. but is it worth it?

dont you think you would be better off safe then sorry?
it would be one of those little sorry's. it would be an eternal sorry.

think about it, debate on how you can know there is no God and that Christ wont come, i would love to hear the reason why.

 

[Amide]

I had a sort of difficult time following that, but I'll try to answer best I can.

I do not believe in the Christian god. Or any god for that matter. However, in the case that he does exist, I would have something to say to him. And I'm sure a truly loving god could listen to some constructive criticism. First, I'd ask him why so much horrible stuff happens on Earth, and why he doesn't change it. Then, I'd ask him why nobody has been "resurrected" in the modern era.

I'd quiz God on lots of stuff. But I'm more than 50% sure the Christian god doesn't exist. :/

 

[aeghrur]

50%? What if Hindu was the true religion or Buddhism? Doesn't that decrease the chance?
And besides, why should I risk my time I KNOW I have for something I have less than 50% chance of having? Why would I become a christian anyhow when buddhism has as much of a chance as christianity? Heck, why waste my time at all? I can be spending my time doing something with the only life I'm guaranteed or I could be putting my bets on a religion which has 1/4th chance, at best, of leading me to salvation. =/ I just prefer my life over an iffy afterlife I guess.

 

[JonaDiaper]

I had a sort of difficult time following that, but I'll try to answer best I can.

I do not believe in the Christian god. Or any god for that matter. However, in the case that he does exist, I would have something to say to him. And I'm sure a truly loving god could listen to some constructive criticism. First, I'd ask him why so much horrible stuff happens on Earth, and why he doesn't change it. Then, I'd ask him why nobody has been "resurrected" in the modern era.

I'd quiz God on lots of stuff. But I'm more than 50% sure the Christian god doesn't exist. :/

you could ask God all the questions you want. but the result would be the same. you cannot justify yourself before him. you couldnt get him to feel pity on you if you refused to believe in him. but you know, theres just that chance.

50%? What if Hindu was the true religion or Buddhism? Doesn't that decrease the chance?
And besides, why should I risk my time I KNOW I have for something I have less than 50% chance of having? Why would I become a christian anyhow when buddhism has as much of a chance as christianity? Heck, why waste my time at all? I can be spending my time doing something with the only life I'm guaranteed or I could be putting my bets on a religion which has 1/4th chance, at best, of leading me to salvation. =/ I just prefer my life over an iffy afterlife I guess.

why cant you do stuff with your life if you do try and follow any God?

im Christian to the fullest, im 16, i play the drums, i have a girlfriend, and i do most things other kids do. except i know the Bible, i know whats right and wrong, i go to church and praise God because he deserves it. well i think so, what i feel in my heart is that he saved mo from eternal suffering and so i thank him for that, and for everything hes done with me. my talents, the way ive been blessed in my life. its like thanksgiving everyday.

dont you just wanna be sure about it tho? like come on. if you died like tomorrow and you face God, and then you remember about what your reading right now, and your like, why didnt i believe him? and then you go to hell. pretty scary stuff i think.

 

[aeghrur]

I don't mean do nothing. I meant in those 2-5 hours of church, I could be doing other stuff. Not because your christian, you don't do anything but devote yourself to religion.
Take 2-5 hours, multiply it by 52, and multiply that by 60. All that time, I could be doing something more, yet instead, I choose to follow a god I can't be sure exists? Nah. =/ I'd rather be doing something else in that time.

If I died tomorrow, and I face God, I'd tell him to go face science, then banish me to hell. =/

 

[Amide]

I can justify being faithless. I don't choose to, it's just that the evidence weighs against god. Simple as that.

 

[JonaDiaper]

I don't mean do nothing. I meant in those 2-5 hours of church, I could be doing other stuff. Not because your christian, you don't do anything but devote yourself to religion.
Take 2-5 hours, multiply it by 52, and multiply that by 60. All that time, I could be doing something more, yet instead, I choose to follow a god I can't be sure exists? Nah. =/ I'd rather be doing something else in that time.

If I died tomorrow, and I face God, I'd tell him to go face science, then banish me to hell. =/

i think i spend more time then that at church. mine would be about 13 times 52. i spend about 13 hours a week at church. you say nah and you put =/ this face. why?
i know you think hes there, just not willing to risk your time. ever give God a test drive?
ever asked him to do something to prove he is there? pray to God one of these days.
ask him to prove himself. im pretty darn sure he'll be more then happy to do it.

I can justify being faithless. I don't choose to, it's just that the evidence weighs against god. Simple as that.

and exactly what evidence do you have? what evidence is there?

can you prove 100% God doesnt exist? i really dont think so.

hes either there or not, you dont know for sure. no one knows for sure.

i could be wasting my time right? cuz theres a chance. but i just feel it in me, i just know hes there.

i cant prove it to you. you have to have your own relationship with him.

and right now, that relationship doesnt exist i guess.

 

[Amide]

Can you prove 100% that god does exist? And yes, there is evidence that counteracts Christianity. It's called evolution.

I don't completely reject the possibility that god exists. I think there's a possibility of a god existing that we don't know much about. But as of now, evolution has more supporting it than any religion. However, we still don't know too much about this either. But the evidence far outweighs any religion.

 

[aeghrur]

i think i spend more time then that at church. mine would be about 13 times 52. i spend about 13 hours a week at church. you say nah and you put =/ this face. why?
i know you think hes there, just not willing to risk your time. ever give God a test drive?
ever asked him to do something to prove he is there? pray to God one of these days.
ask him to prove himself. im pretty darn sure he'll be more then happy to do it.

I used to. I used to be a pretty devout christian. Praying every night in 6th-7th grade asking for redemption of my sins and to protect me from committing more and to protect my family.
Thing is, over time, I slowly drifted away from it. The test drive wasn't worth it. I hated church, to be honest. It was boring and I'd always wish I was doing other things. So I didn't want to waste my time anymore. Then, I realized I only used religion for 3 things: Why are we here? How did we get here/what created the universe? and What's after death? However, slowly, I figured out 2 based on scientific evidence and logical support. Then I decided i didn't care about 3 because, I'll face it when I do. And I didn't care about 1 because there's a myriad of answers. Without the 3 things, I had no need for religion and I can do what ever I want in the free time. So, why should I waste 2-13 hours a week pursuing things I don't really care about that only have a percentage at being right? I'd rather spend that time living life. =/

Edit: To person above me: Evolution doesn't really counteract christianity as both can coexist. It's the big bang that really counteracts it.

 

[SkylerOcon]

can you prove 100% God doesnt exist? i really dont think so.

Can you prove 100% God does exist? I really don't think so.

You have a major fallacy in your argument with the whole 'can you prove God doesn't exist?'. Let's use these scenarios as an example:

Scenario 1 (Trying to prove by Science):

Guy 1: I have a baseball in my pocket, so therefor it exists.
Guy 2: Can I see it, so I know you're not lying?
Guy 3: *takes baseball out of pocket*
Guy 4: Cool!

Scenario 2 (Trying to prove by God):

Guy 1: I have a baseball in my pocket, so therefor it exists.
Guy 2: Can I see it, so I know you're not lying?
Guy 3: Can you prove it doesn't exist?
Guy 4: Um...

Obviously, those are metaphors, but Scenario 2 is pretty much what your argument looks like.

I don't rule out the possibility of a higher power, but it's the most unlikely possibility.

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

i could be wasting my time right? cuz theres a chance. but i just feel it in me, i just know hes there.

I like the way you say that, this is the exact same thing why I still continue on my Christian faith... Because of that chance, even if there is no God at all... I still regard and cover that 'just in case' factor. Think about it, there is no harm in taking the chance. this goes for all of you who say you have all the time in the world, why not take use of that all time and put some effort into a loving deity. If you don't have all the time in the world, then it is up to you... ( NOT forcing anyone, strictly all your choice )

 

[JonaDiaper]

Can you prove 100% that god does exist? And yes, there is evidence that counteracts Christianity. It's called evolution.

I don't completely reject the possibility that god exists. I think there's a possibility of a god existing that we don't know much about. But as of now, evolution has more supporting it than any religion. However, we still don't know too much about this either. But the evidence far outweighs any religion.

i did say that i cannot prove it to you already. the Bible gives you your answer, there is no evolution, God made man and woman. but you have to believe in the Bible first, which you dont because i cant prove it to you. thats why they call it believing.

I used to. I used to be a pretty devout christian. Praying every night in 6th-7th grade asking for redemption of my sins and to protect me from committing more and to protect my family.
Thing is, over time, I slowly drifted away from it. The test drive wasn't worth it. I hated church, to be honest. It was boring and I'd always wish I was doing other things. So I didn't want to waste my time anymore. Then, I realized I only used religion for 3 things: Why are we here? How did we get here/what created the universe? and What's after death? However, slowly, I figured out 2 based on scientific evidence and logical support. Then I decided i didn't care about 3 because, I'll face it when I do. And I didn't care about 1 because there's a myriad of answers. Without the 3 things, I had no need for religion and I can do what ever I want in the free time. So, why should I waste 2-13 hours a week pursuing things I don't really care about that only have a percentage at being right? I'd rather spend that time living life. =/

Edit: To person above me: Evolution doesn't really counteract christianity as both can coexist. It's the big bang that really counteracts it.

thats really sad, i really hope one day you can go back to church and stuff. God is really amazing, you should try it again. Give him another chance, i know you wont regret it.
theres time for everything in life man, even if you use 13 hours a week to be at church, youll still have time for everything

 

[aeghrur]

Because I've stated, as above, that loving that deity is a pointless way for me to spend my time considering I have no need for it. The minimal chance does not give me reassurance, nor do I care for the insurance. Only reason I would resort to religion would be because to answer the 3 main questions religion answers and as I've stated before, I have an answer for one of them, a crapload of options for another, and I don't care for the third.

Many people have told me to go to a church before. I respect your love for god, but personally, I wouldn't go except to see some friends. Thanks for the consideration though. =/

 

[JonaDiaper]

wait, you dont believe in God, but do you believe in Jesus ?

 

[aeghrur]

Jesus was a man and he did live during that era.
I doubt he had mystical powers, but he was alive. My thoughts on this matter.

 

[JonaDiaper]

so Jesus to you was just a man, and just died on the cross because he felt like saying he was the son of God?

do you think he was crazy? only a crazy person would basically kill themself because they believed they were the son of God.

 

[Blackadder]

thats really sad, i really hope one day you can go back to church and stuff. God is really amazing, you should try it again. Give him another chance, i know you wont regret it.

Heh... last time I went to church I went to sleep. I failed Religious Education class last semester. I tend to skip school masses.
I've tried God, sure. But it was never by my own will. I can say I sure regret the masses I've been to though...

I'm Agnostic. I believe in something. But I don't think that something is anything humans could ever grasp. I don't think it really cares about us much anyway.

I'm not sure what this thread is about. It sounds like you're trying to prove that the Christain God is real. I think you mentioned it before, but you can't prove that. Anyone here who doesn't care for God here isn't going to change their minds, I'm afraid.

When you said "it's better to be safe than sorry" about believing in God, however, I'd say that's a **** poor reason to have faith in God. That sounds like a fear thing. And who are you to even say that it's safer? It's safer ASSUMING God is EXACTLY as YOU think of him.

I kinda think a loving Christain God would be impressed by someone who refuses to believe in him anyway. You'd think a God would encourage original thought like that. Some humans choose to follow free will like that. You'd think he'd want that.

Maybe. I dunno. I ALWAYS post in the Hall when I'm spaced. ._.

*points at jumble of text*

 

[aeghrur]

I don't know. I haven't searched that part up to see if he did die on the cross or not, lol. Based upon christian beliefs and the Bible he did. But that's assuming the Bible is correct. I think he could've simply died like any other human. =/ How should I know? So say he didn't die on the cross as the Bible said, look at my perspective, how would he die? Too many ways to answer. Also, remember that I don't believe in the Bible, so what makes it so true that he did die on the cross then?

 

[Crimson King]

The biggest reason I don't believe in god? Logic, reason, common sense, and history.

The sole source of anything about God, and going by Christianity especially, is the Bible. The Bible is one of the most ridiculous pieces of fiction ever created. Want proof? Try reading that ****er sometime. First, in the very first book it offers two TOTALLY different creation stories, and from this, we are supposed to believe that this is THE way the world around us was created. The fact that the first story is contradicted by the second story is enough to disprove the whole thing, but let's look on. Leviticus is the most antiquated sets of rules every created which include being put to death for touching a woman on her period, eating meat on the Fridays, working on the Sabbath, and having sex with another man. Also, if children are disruptive you are instructed to STONE them. On that topic, god isn't against murdering children. Take a look at 2 Kings 2:23-24. In it, Ezkiel, a prophet of god, was on his way home, when several children (I believe 42) cursed him. He prayed, and god sent 2 she-bears to rip these children to shreds. Very benevolent.

But the most ****ing thing in the entire bible - Exodus. This is THE testament that the Jews are the chosen people of god. Without that book, Jesus would have nothing to really base anything on (as he was a Jewish Rabbi). However, historical records have ZERO indication that the Jews were ever enslaved. In fact, most Jewish people to past through Egypt weren't even workers but were shepherds and the like. The bible is the only source that shows the Jews being in Egypt en masse, much less them being slaves.

With these fallacies against logic in mind, it comes to my favorite quote: "Knowledge is the enemy of faith." Faith, by definition, is the belief in something without evidence. One of the main things for god to exist is that you must have FAITH in his existence. In other words, in order to understand god, you have to believe and accept he exists without proof. Try that with anything else and see how far it gets you.

What's the best part of all this? The bible is just a translation of a translation of a translation. Add to the fact that as emperors saw fit, they EDITED the book with Popes at the time (Constantine and the pope that coincided with him edited the gospels down the 4), and you are reading an EDITED copy of a translation of a translation of a translation.

Also, Jonadiaper: learn to post better and grammatically correct, or you'll be booted.

Edit: As for Jesus' existence? Of course, Jesus of Nazareth existed because that name was as common as John is here. Did he perform miracles? Probably not. In fact, there are several other men who were attributed the same "miracles" as Jesus was.

 

[JonaDiaper]

Heh... last time I went to church I went to sleep. I failed Religious Education class last semester. I tend to skip school masses.
I've tried God, sure. But it was never by my own will. I can say I sure regret the masses I've been to though...

I'm Agnostic. I believe in something. But I don't think that something is anything humans could ever grasp. I don't think it really cares about us much anyway.

I'm not sure what this thread is about. It sounds like you're trying to prove that the Christain God is real. I think you mentioned it before, but you can't prove that. Anyone here who doesn't care for God here isn't going to change their minds, I'm afraid.

When you said "it's better to be safe than sorry" about believing in God, however, I'd say that's a **** poor reason to have faith in God. That sounds like a fear thing. And who are you to even say that it's safer? It's safer ASSUMING God is EXACTLY as YOU think of him.

I kinda think a loving Christain God would be impressed by someone who refuses to believe in him anyway. You'd think a God would encourage original thought like that. Some humans choose to follow free will like that. You'd think he'd want that.

Maybe. I dunno. I ALWAYS post in the Hall when I'm spaced. ._.

*points at jumble of text*

i say its better to be safe then sorry not for me, but for others, i just try to put it in there mind that you CAN be wrong, and if you are you will be sorry. i hope that makes sence

I don't know. I haven't searched that part up to see if he did die on the cross or not, lol. Based upon christian beliefs and the Bible he did. But that's assuming the Bible is correct. I think he could've simply died like any other human. =/ How should I know? So say he didn't die on the cross as the Bible said, look at my perspective, how would he die? Too many ways to answer. Also, remember that I don't believe in the Bible, so what makes it so true that he did die on the cross then?

i cannot prove that to you. its based of faith. you apparently have little to no faith, i still think you have some. because you used to pray and go to church. those things dont just go away, you remember those things. its always there.

 

[SkylerOcon]

i cannot prove that to you. its based of faith. you apparently have little to no faith, i still think you have some. because you used to pray and go to church. those things dont just go away, you remember those things. its always there.

And that's why your argument will never work. For you to win, it requires the other people you're arguing with to have faith in a God. And obviously, the people you're arguing with won't have faith in God.

 

[Proverbs]

I had a sort of difficult time following that, but I'll try to answer best I can.

I do not believe in the Christian god. Or any god for that matter. However, in the case that he does exist, I would have something to say to him. And I'm sure a truly loving god could listen to some constructive criticism. First, I'd ask him why so much horrible stuff happens on Earth, and why he doesn't change it.

I have to say TLink_King, this is a very recycled argument. People bring this up all of the time. They don't realize that PEOPLE do terrible things, not God. Beyond that, interfering with what people do is interference with free will. That's not part of God's plan.

And as far as natural disasters go, they are all part of God's plan, in the end. Realize that our physical bodies don't just live and then die. God realizes that there is more to life than the physical, which is why natural disasters aren't the end of the world for people. Death is far from the worst thing that can happen.

Then, I'd ask him why nobody has been "resurrected" in the modern era.

Think about this one, when were people resurrected? Mostly when Jesus was around. There was Jesus resurrecting, him resurrecting Lazarus, and Paul resurrecting some guy with a crazy name that fell asleep during one of his sermons and fell out the window and died (I think that's in Acts 21 if you're interested). People aren't being resurrected because Jesus has left. However if you want to challenge the existence of miracles, they do still happen today. Read through some of the accounts of martyrs--even recent ones--and you get some pretty intense stories that definitely qualify as miracles.

And there are churches that allow for that type of thing. I've heard of a good deal of them happening even within my own church.

I'd quiz God on lots of stuff. But I'm more than 50% sure the Christian god doesn't exist. :/

So let me get this straight: From what I can tell you haven't really read the Bible in depth nor have done any research into its accuracy or anything. In fact, you don't seem terribly familiar with Christianity at all. And yet you're willing to say that 1/3 of the entire world is wrong in their beliefs because you think it doesn't exist. A 2000 year long movement is abolished by someone who is how old? And let's not forget that the Christ was prophesied about WAYYYY before he was even born, so that's a whole lot more than 2000 years, but we'll keep it at that.

I hate to pick on you TLink, but I see a lot of people with completely unfounded opinions who seem convinced that Christianity is unfounded and wrong.

But come test the evidence. I challenge you to study out the evidence for and against Christianity. As you do it'll become pretty clear that the arguments against are shaky and questionable while the arguments and evidence for are clear and definite.

Once again, sorry to pick on you, but it's offensive when I see people who just decide that by their own opinion they can abolish an entire religion.


EDIT: I haven't read this whole thread yet. I'm going to do that sometime later and make some posts here about Christianity. It's a subject not often spoken well about and one that I've researched a ton. It's also a religion I avoided for over half of my teenage life and ended up finding truth in. I've looked deeply into the subject, so hopefully I can shed some light on the situation at a later date. I'm just dead tired right now as it's 2 AM here. But I'll get back here later.

Redmage
==/==

 

[JonaDiaper]

The biggest reason I don't believe in god? Logic, reason, common sense, and history.

The sole source of anything about God, and going by Christianity especially, is the Bible. The Bible is one of the most ridiculous pieces of fiction ever created. Want proof? Try reading that ****er sometime. First, in the very first book it offers two TOTALLY different creation stories, and from this, we are supposed to believe that this is THE way the world around us was created. The fact that the first story is contradicted by the second story is enough to disprove the whole thing, but let's look on. Leviticus is the most antiquated sets of rules every created which include being put to death for touching a woman on her period, eating meat on the Fridays, working on the Sabbath, and having sex with another man. Also, if children are disruptive you are instructed to STONE them. On that topic, god isn't against murdering children. Take a look at 2 Kings 2:23-24. In it, Ezkiel, a prophet of god, was on his way home, when several children (I believe 42) cursed him. He prayed, and god sent 2 she-bears to rip these children to shreds. Very benevolent.

But the most ****ing thing in the entire bible - Exodus. This is THE testament that the Jews are the chosen people of god. Without that book, Jesus would have nothing to really base anything on (as he was a Jewish Rabbi). However, historical records have ZERO indication that the Jews were ever enslaved. In fact, most Jewish people to past through Egypt weren't even workers but were shepherds and the like. The bible is the only source that shows the Jews being in Egypt en masse, much less them being slaves.

With these fallacies against logic in mind, it comes to my favorite quote: "Knowledge is the enemy of faith." Faith, by definition, is the belief in something without evidence. One of the main things for god to exist is that you must have FAITH in his existence. In other words, in order to understand god, you have to believe and accept he exists without proof. Try that with anything else and see how far it gets you.

Also, Jonadiaper: learn to post better and grammatically correct, or you'll be booted.

first, i didnt know the debaters were here to post good and be grammatically correct, i thought it was to debate with some sence.

second it was elijah who was going up the hill on the way home, and the kids were saying "go up bald guy" or something to that effect, they did not curse him.

third you speak of all these things as if you were there. i dont understand how you can trust books on "historical events" but the Bible is an exception.

 

[aeghrur]

Old and popular doesn't mean it's true...
it just means a lot of people believe it.
People used to believe the sun went around the earth, didn't make it true.
People used to believe the atom was indivisible, doesn't make it true.
People used to believe the earth was made of fire, earth, wind, and water, doesn't make it true.
Sorry Proverb, just because 1/3 of the word believes it and for a ridiculous amount of time doesn't make it true. Besides, what makes Christianity more true than Islam?

 

[Crimson King]

first, i didnt know the debaters were here to post good and be grammatically correct, i thought it was to debate with some sence.

second it was elijah who was going up the hill on the way home, and the kids were saying "go up bald guy" or something to that effect, they did not curse him.

third you speak of all these things as if you were there. i dont understand how you can trust books on "historical events" but the Bible is an exception.

Firstly, to be even remotely accepted of any of your beliefs, you must speak properly, intelligently, and respectfully.

Secondly, I was going by memory, and you just proved that god slaughtered children for even LESS than cursing.

Historical records come from a lot more than a single, heavily edited book that started as oral tradition. With records, we have carbon-dating samples that date artifacts, written tradition, artifacts themselves, descendants, etc. History isn't guesswork, that's what Religion does.

 

[Reaver197]

you know alot of people just refuse to believe in God. but thats ok, we have a choice.
now i once heard this example.

answer this. do you know everything? can you answer any and every question with 100% accuracy?

your answer will be no.

now lets say you knew 50% of everything. what's the chance you can be wrong. 50%.

now you say there is no God and that the Bible is just another book, what is the chance your wrong? 50%

now lets say you die. and there IS a God. and you face him on Judgement Day, as the Bible says.

what will you tell him? "oh i just didnt think you existed" , and since God is a just God, will you think he will just let you enter heaven? or will he send you to hell?

Back to the example:

is it worth the 50% chance of going to hell because you just didnt want to believe in God?

do you understand that hell is eternal suffering? then again there is just a 50% chance there is a hell right? who cares, our lives are riding on the equivalent of a coin flip.

its your life. your coin toss, you get to choose. but is it worth it?

dont you think you would be better off safe then sorry?
it would be one of those little sorry's. it would be an eternal sorry.

Alright, I'm sorry to do this the day before I'm actually going to meet you, and I'd hate to have my first impression be a negative one, but I can't let this argument go past unquestioned.

First off, you're making an error in assuming that, somehow, there is an exactly 50/50 chance of a god existing or not existing. Just because we cannot definitively disprove (or prove) that a god exists does not translate into each side being equally as likely as the other. In fact, it's grossly not the case. If you take any serious, studied appraisal of the two sides, you would see that overwhelmingly the evidence points to god not existing. Of course, you can't really ever 100% disprove something that doesn't exist, especially something so nebulous of nature, but you can show that it is highly probable that a god does not exist.

It's the same trap that Pascal fell into with his famous wager. Pascal decided that it was the "safer" bet to believe in a god, just in case, so he wouldn't get punished in the afterlife, if there is one. The issue with such reasoning is that it could theoretically extend to any proposition that carries a negative consequence if you do not believe in it. Sure, I can tell you that unless you believe in a magical bunny, who is too small to ever be seen by anyone or any piece of equipment, he will visit you in your sleep and kill you. No one is going to believe in such a thing, and no one ought to "just to be safe". Then there is the added complication of choosing the right "god" you ought to believe in, and then the right particular way to believe in that god. Besides, is it truly "belief" if you're doing just out of fear of punishment?

As for the 2nd coming of Christ, it's been touted about so many times before by Christians. There's quite an extensive list of dates that have been put forth by Christians as to when Jesus will come back, and all have, obviously, so far been unfulfilled. It's comedic in some ways and tragic in others that Christians keep working themselves up over this despite all the times before.

I have to say TLink_King, this is a very recycled argument. People bring this up all of the time. They don't realize that PEOPLE do terrible things, not God. Beyond that, interfering with what people do is interference with free will. That's not part of God's plan.

And as far as natural disasters go, they are all part of God's plan, in the end. Realize that our physical bodies don't just live and then die. God realizes that there is more to life than the physical, which is why natural disasters aren't the end of the world for people. Death is far from the worst thing that can happen.

Ah, the very divided logic of the religious. So, it's all according to "God's plan" to unleash HIV, ebola, and the West Nile virus on mankind? To inflict random people with terrible pain and disease and death? What about people who get cancer, or people who are born with severe defects? Clearly, since it's bad, people did it, not God.

And, I'd love to see you tell the parents in China who lost their children in an earthquake, that it was according to "god's plan" and thus is somehow a good thing. Or tell the people who lost loved ones and their livelihood when a tsunami hit their home. Don't you think it an exceedingly cruel and conceited thing to tell other people?

And, ah, the whole God doesn't interfere with free will. Why does he not? He seemed pretty strident and strict about following whatever rules he decided there should be during the Old Testament. Why suddenly can he no longer interfere with people, or smite whole cities and towns like he seemed to love to in the old book?

If you're going to have a god that you want to attribute the creation of everything to and who rules supremely and omnipotently, you can't really hold him to be free of involvement with any of the "bad" things that happen in the world. If there are bad things that happen which he either lets happens, or wants to happen, then he is at best indifferent to humans and at worst malevolent. If there are bad things that happen that he wants to not happen, but they happen anyway, then he is not all that powerful. Either way, why worship him?

Think about this one, when were people resurrected? Mostly when Jesus was around. There was Jesus resurrecting, him resurrecting Lazarus, and Paul resurrecting some guy with a crazy name that fell asleep during one of his sermons and fell out the window and died (I think that's in Acts 21 if you're interested). People aren't being resurrected because Jesus has left. However if you want to challenge the existence of miracles, they do still happen today. Read through some of the accounts of martyrs--even recent ones--and you get some pretty intense stories that definitely qualify as miracles.

And there are churches that allow for that type of thing. I've heard of a good deal of them happening even within my own church.

Like what sort of things? And, why can people only be resurrected when Jesus is around? Isn't that a kind of convenient excuse? Why would a purportedly omnipotent god not be able to resurrect people without Jesus? He should try to, at the very least, considering how many people have died and been killed in his name.

So let me get this straight: From what I can tell you haven't really read the Bible in depth nor have done any research into its accuracy or anything. In fact, you don't seem terribly familiar with Christianity at all. And yet you're willing to say that 1/3 of the entire world is wrong in their beliefs because you think it doesn't exist. A 2000 year long movement is abolished by someone who is how old? And let's not forget that the Christ was prophesied about WAYYYY before he was even born, so that's a whole lot more than 2000 years, but we'll keep it at that.

I hate to pick on you TLink, but I see a lot of people with completely unfounded opinions who seem convinced that Christianity is unfounded and wrong.

But come test the evidence. I challenge you to study out the evidence for and against Christianity. As you do it'll become pretty clear that the arguments against are shaky and questionable while the arguments and evidence for are clear and definite.

Once again, sorry to pick on you, but it's offensive when I see people who just decide that by their own opinion they can abolish an entire religion.


EDIT: I haven't read this whole thread yet. I'm going to do that sometime later and make some posts here about Christianity. It's a subject not often spoken well about and one that I've researched a ton. It's also a religion I avoided for over half of my teenage life and ended up finding truth in. I've looked deeply into the subject, so hopefully I can shed some light on the situation at a later date. I'm just dead tired right now as it's 2 AM here. But I'll get back here later.

Redmage
==/==

Proverbs, I'd like to ask you, have you actually read the entire Bible? Like, the whole thing, not just parts they pick out to say in Church? If anything, it was actually reading and comprehending what was being said in the Bible when I was younger that actually made me start to not believe in it. I don't remember who said it, but I recall a quote from someone saying that the best way to become an atheist is to read the Bible. Not only is it full of self-contradictions, and general weirdness, it can be quite horrifying and downright immoral and atrocious in what happens in it.

And, besides, the age of Christianity and the Bible does not lend credence and credibility to it at all. Considering the general climate of superstitious ignorance the founding text of the religion was written during, it should actually make it all the more worrisome that people continue to base their lives (and take other's) because of it. I also have to say, it is not all that hard for someone to renounce religion nowadays or see it through as, at best, a cockamamie construction of the strange ideas that some group of people a couple of millenia ago got into their heads. It took a little while for science and evidence to establish themselves in such a position, but now that they have, it's fairly easy.

Also, I'd love to hear your arguments for why a god does exist. It is often those, not the scientific theories that are at odd with them, that stand on tenuous and shaky ground.

 

[Steel]

@the OP

Seems part of the reason you even believe in God is because you're SCARED that if you don't you'd be sent to hell. That's.. not good. God doesn't want that at all.

Also the Bible isn't to be taken 100% literal. For example, Adam and Eve never existed. It was nothing but a story to show what the act of sin is and the introduction of the devil.

 

[Amide]

@ Proverbs

It's a recycled argument? Lol, because I thought I made it up. Anyways, you're completely missing the point. I'd quiz 'god' because I would want him to know what kept me faithless in my life. Yes, I know that people do bad things, not "god." But that's exactly my point, the only thing that would hold a lot of people back from heaven is faithlessness in "god." I don't think I should go to hell for that reason alone.

Oh, and the "god's plan" thing really drives me nuts. Next time someone you know gets *****, tortured, or killed, I would find it fascinating for you to shed some positive light on it. On natural disasters, I'd like you to elaborate why god has the need to create natural disasters. Why are they part of god's plan? Jam Stunna said it best in another thread(well it's actually a quote): What makes more sense? Horrible things happening to good people as part of god's plan, or horrible things happening to good people just because?

Evolution is a much more thorough, complex, and factual look on human life. I don't have enough time to explain it here, but the lack of mentioning it on your part is just sad.

I hate to pick on you Proverbs, but I see a lot of people with completely unfounded opinions who seem convinced that Science is unfounded and wrong.

But come test the evidence. I challenge you to study out the evidence for and against Science. As you do it'll become pretty clear that the arguments against are shaky and questionable while the arguments and evidence for are clear and definite.

Once again, sorry to pick on you, but it's offensive when I see people who just decide that by their own opinion they can abolish an entire scientifically advanced theory.


______
OK, enough with funny talk. I don't choose to not believe in god. Evidence


Proverbs. Please, study science. You won't regret it.

 

[SuperBowser]

Suppose that someone does believe in a creator (clearly not the case in this thread ).

Where does this giant leap from creator>>>>>Christianity come from?

 

[Steel]

Suppose that someone does believe in a creator (clearly not the case in this thread ).

Where does this giant leap from creator>>>>>Christianity come from?

?? I don't even understand your question. Try being a little more clear?

 

[JonaDiaper]

Alright, I'm sorry to do this the day before I'm actually going to meet you, and I'd hate to have my first impression be a negative one, but I can't let this argument go past unquestioned.

First off, you're making an error in assuming that, somehow, there is an exactly 50/50 chance of a god existing or not existing. Just because we cannot definitively disprove (or prove) that a god exists does not translate into each side being equally as likely as the other. In fact, it's grossly not the case. If you take any serious, studied appraisal of the two sides, you would see that overwhelmingly the evidence points to god not existing. Of course, you can't really ever 100% disprove something that doesn't exist, especially something so nebulous of nature, but you can show that it is highly probable that a god does not exist.

It's the same trap that Pascal fell into with his famous wager. Pascal decided that it was the "safer" bet to believe in a god, just in case, so he wouldn't get punished in the afterlife, if there is one. The issue with such reasoning is that it could theoretically extend to any proposition that carries a negative consequence if you do not believe in it. Sure, I can tell you that unless you believe in a magical bunny, who is too small to ever be seen by anyone or any piece of equipment, he will visit you in your sleep and kill you. No one is going to believe in such a thing, and no one ought to "just to be safe". Then there is the added complication of choosing the right "god" you ought to believe in, and then the right particular way to believe in that god. Besides, is it truly "belief" if you're doing just out of fear of punishment?

As for the 2nd coming of Christ, it's been touted about so many times before by Christians. There's quite an extensive list of dates that have been put forth by Christians as to when Jesus will come back, and all have, obviously, so far been unfulfilled. It's comedic in some ways and tragic in others that Christians keep working themselves up over this despite all the times before.

Also, I'd love to hear your arguments for why a god does exist. It is often those, not the scientific theories that are at odd with them, that stand on tenuous and shaky ground.

i didnt mean that there is a 50% chance God exists, my example was, say you know 50% of everything in the world, and in that other 50% isnt there a chance God does exist?

maybe i wrote it wrong.

and as to why God does exist, do you think life just happened? i mean really, something so complex, just happened? and we just happen to be in the perfect place to live? (earth)

look at it like this, every painting has its painter, every building has a designer, dont you think it makes sence that God made earth and everything there is? or was it just chance?

@the OP

Seems part of the reason you even believe in God is because you're SCARED that if you don't you'd be sent to hell. That's.. not good. God doesn't want that at all.

Also the Bible isn't to be taken 100% literal. For example, Adam and Eve never existed. It was nothing but a story to show what the act of sin is and the introduction of the devil.

ok how do you know adam and eve didnt exist? did you know that because adam and eve sinned we are like this? that we have a choice to make now? we were clean until we sinned. the first sin of man, (adam and eve) condemned every single one of us to be guilty of sin. thats where Jesus comes in.

and i am afraid of going to hell, arent you? if i feel in my heart that God exists but refuse to believe anyways i should be sent to hell. i would deserve it. not because i say so, but because the Bible does.

 

[SuperBowser]

?? I don't even understand your question. Try being a little more clear?

Why do you assume Christianity is the correct religion?

 

[aeghrur]

i didnt mean that there is a 50% chance God exists, my example was, say you know 50% of everything in the world, and in that other 50% isnt there a chance God does exist?

maybe i wrote it wrong.

and as to why God does exist, do you think life just happened? i mean really, something so complex, just happened? and we just happen to be in the perfect place to live? (earth)

look at it like this, every painting has its painter, every building has a designer, dont you think it makes sence that God made earth and everything there is? or was it just chance?

Life and Earth isn't that hard to come by considering how massive this universe is and the amount of time it's had.
Think about it, 10billion+ years, millions of galaxies consisting of millions of solar systems consisting of planets. It's not all that hard to get that 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 chance if you think about it.
And just because every building has a designer, what makes this designer God? Why can't this designer simply be nature? Is there something that says it's either no one or the christian God? Seriously, I can't seem to understand why God must be the one and only one thing that could possibly do these things.

 

[Evil Eye]

This thread is getting EE'd.


Background: I have a lot of respect for religion, but I think of it as a nice concept that has an ingenious method of enforcing a general sense of morality. I have no respect for the men that seem to dominate the control of individual religions, as they are prone to corruption. Religion has many a time been distorted as an excuse to do harm to others (something every last religion tells you not to do) in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.

you know alot of people just refuse to believe in God. but thats ok, we have a choice.

Okay, off to a good start.

i once heard this example.

answer this. do you know everything? can you answer any and every question with 100% accuracy?

your answer will be no.

Ah, but the same goes for you, my friend. Unless you're saying being a Christian puts you on some kind of inside track of knowledge that the Hindi, Muslims, Daoists, Atheists and so on are somehow just off of.

lets say you knew 50% of everything. what's the chance you can be wrong. 50%.

now you say there is no God and that the Bible is just another book, what is the chance your wrong? 50%

What?

That's a whole lot of supposition, bub. I've never seen math used in such a haphazard and slapdash BS fashion. You're just throwing numbers at us and expecting us to accept htem.

But guess what? Given the huge and vast number of religions out there, in your example, the 50% where God exists is divvied up a lot. At best, with Christianity's God, you're looking at 10%. Probably 5% or lower.

But if every human being knows 50% of everything, then clearly the atheists who believe in no God at all have the biggest chunk of the knowledge pie.

lets say you die. and there IS a God. and you face him on Judgement Day, as the Bible says.

Okay.

will you tell him? "oh i just didnt think you existed" , and since God is a just God, will you think he will just let you enter heaven? or will he send you to hell?

Well, if I faced the Christian God on the Christian Judgment Day -- a pretty unlikely scenario, as I proved using your own numbers -- I would make a plea based around the fact that I'm a person with a very rigid set of morals. By comparison, I know staunch Roman Catholics that are absolutely awful people, and cast all pointed fingers aside with "Well, I know the Bible" or "I go to church" or blah blah blah blah blah blabbity blah BLAH. And with that in mind...

a just judge would have to do the right thing, give you what you deserve.

You're right. He would.

but God gives you lots of chances to believe in him, follow him, and live the life he wants you to live. not just a "good" life. he sent his son, Jesus Christ to save us. from what you ask? eternal suffering. aka hell. remember there is a 50% chance hell exists.

Actually, a lot of religions don't believe in a straight-up Hell. Most of them have beliefs that you will be trapped in a place of spiritual unrest, not fire and brimstone, and many among them, like Buddhism or Daoism, believe that you'll have many a life to correct your errs. And, of course, in the 50% chunk where some God exists, every religion has its own idea of just what the fatal errs are.

Maybe that's why the more spiritual and just religions give you many spiritual lives to find the correct path. Maybe Christianity does so too -- why don't Evangelists like you ever mention purgatory? It feels like you guys like to ignore concepts like second chances for the purpose of fear-mongering. Hey, it's easier to trick and intimidate people until they leap headfirst into your religion than it is to love and embrace them for whomever they may be and let them find their own way to the "true path", am I right?

God wants us to live the life he wants us to live? You sound like John Doe from Se7en, pally. What happened to that wonderful Free Will he gave us? Hmm? As I recall, we weren't supposed to eat the forbidden fruit, and did so anyway. Sounds like Man has been living "the life he didn't intend" since day one.

I'm a very good person. I don't take handouts from people.

I love both my parents, even though one is a cruel, bigoted, and horrid person.

I treat the common man equally on first impression, and base my treatment of them heretofore on character, not ethnicity, religion, or politics.

I've had many opportunities to steal with impunity, and I did not.

I've been in one true fight ever. I won, and I felt horrible.

I plan to be a police officer. This city is full of corruption, poverty, and gangs. It is at the moment the world HQ for the Hell's Angels, in fact (though the kingpin was recently arrested). And for this reason, I will never leave the city for places I would enjoy far more, like Hawaii or Florida, or British Columbia. I will stay here and dedicate my life to making some level of a positive difference in other people's day-to-day lives, because I believe that positive change comes from positive action, not kneeling and clasping your hands together.

Are you going to tell me your God can't respect that? That he respects the rapists and serial murderers who "see the light" when the end is near more than me?

A just judge would give me what I deserve. I ask all you Debate Hallers... what does it sound like EE deserves? Hell?

the chances God give you end either when you die, or when Christ comes again. Then again you could be saved during the Great Tribulation, but you would have to stand up for Christ until you died.
and that could be by torture, that could be by starvation, that could be you getting your head cut off.

So you're saying all my positive attributes are completely outweighed by your moral God because I don't believe in a God?

Are you kidding me!?

Why do I have to stand up for Christ directly, exactly? I don't see him in my day-to-day life. I see crime, emotional ruin, and other bad stuff. I don't see Christ marching up the hill, acting out the stations of the cross. There's no Jesus for me to defend. But there are plenty of people who are suffering, and as I outlined, I plan to dedicate my life to being a positive drop in a bucket of shit. Isn't that what Christ would approve of? Putting your life in the interest of the common man? Loving thy neighbor? I could die in the profession I have chosen, and I am not afraid -- I am proud that I am unperturbed by this.

In fact, shouldn't God respect that most of all? I don't believe in any life after this one, and yet I'm fully prepared to cut this one short to help someone I probably don't even know.

Don't I just sound like a total Hell candidate?

who would let that happen to themselves? no one. in order to eat during the Great Tribulation you will need the mark of the beast, 666. and once you get the mark on you, your done. condemned.

What the hell are you even talking about? Are you saying that just because people aren't Christian, it means they won't do good? Well, to quote Jack Lemmon, kiss my ass. I plan to do a lot of good things in my life. What are you going to do? Do you even know what path you're on, child?

Back to the example:

is it worth the 50% chance of going to hell

5%***

because you just didnt want to believe in God?

It's not a fact of not wanting to believe, you narrow-minded ape. I went to a Catholic school when I was younger, and was probably more rigidly religious than you are. Guess what? I couldn't believe. I couldn't. I wanted to, and every time I prayed to God it went unanswered. My life only bettered itself when I took action into my own hands. Maybe this was God's way of putting me on the path I'm headed on now, to be the White Knight of Winnipeg, crime capital of Canada. They say he works in mysterious ways. Well, if everything He does has a purpose -- like ignoring the fraught cries of a young boy dedicated to Christ -- how can he shun me later on, when my lack of belief is a direct result of my discovery that no God was going to help me?

do you understand that hell is eternal suffering? then again there is just a 50% chance there is a hell right? who cares, our lives are riding on the equivalent of a coin flip.

Not exactly. I've been over this, and I'm not going to bother repeating myself.

its your life. your coin toss, you get to choose. but is it worth it?

You tell me. As I already explained, Hell ain't no coin flip. It's one number of one color in a game of roulette.

dont you think you would be better off safe then sorry?
it would be one of those little sorry's. it would be an eternal sorry.

More fearmongering.

think about it, debate on how you can know there is no God and that Christ wont come, i would love to hear the reason why.

See above.





-I

 

[AltF4]

Even your first assumption is wrong, JonaDiaper.

If someone did know 50% of all that there is to know, and you asked him a question, it does not follow that there will be a 50% success rate on the truth of what he says.

I, for instance, know significantly less than 50% of all there is to know. Let's just say for argument, 1%. Does that mean that 99% of everything that I say when I talk is wrong?! No. This one-to-one relationship that you assumed does not exist.

You're fatal mistake was thinking of truth as a matter of chance. As if we're rolling a die and making a wish. This is not how the world works. There are truths in the universe, and we can discover what these truths are through logic, reason, and evidence. If you are trying to support a belief, you must provide evidence. Real evidence. Not rehashed circular arguments without basis. Your entire argument is a poorly worded version of Pascal's Wager, which is well known to be invalid.

 

[Jam Stunna]

EE is amazing.

I don't really care if God exists or not. If he does, I refuse to worship a being that allows the suffering in the world that occurs. I'd rather burn in Hell than kneel before a creature that allows children to be murdered.

 

[Amide]

EE is amazing.

I don't really care if God exists or not. If he does, I refuse to worship a being that allows the suffering in the world that occurs. I'd rather burn in Hell than kneel before a creature that allows children to be murdered.

That's my favorite reply in this thread so far. Hilarious yet smart.

 

[RDK]

What's with this recent influx of just letting everyone and their mom into the Debate Hall? Please, Crimson, be a little more exclusive in your invitations.

 

[aeghrur]

What's with this recent influx of just letting everyone and their mom into the Debate Hall? Please, Crimson, be a little more exclusive in your invitations.

*fears getting kicked out now. *
EE's post was awe-inspiring.

 

[Reaver197]

i didnt mean that there is a 50% chance God exists, my example was, say you know 50% of everything in the world, and in that other 50% isnt there a chance God does exist?

maybe i wrote it wrong.

and as to why God does exist, do you think life just happened? i mean really, something so complex, just happened? and we just happen to be in the perfect place to live? (earth)

look at it like this, every painting has its painter, every building has a designer, dont you think it makes sence that God made earth and everything there is? or was it just chance?

Ok, I talked about this and disproved this line of thought in the other thread, but I can restate them here.

Essentially, you're postulating that nothing can't exist unless it has a designer/creator. A building needs an architect as much as a bird needs a supernatural deity to you. However, there's an issue with that line of logic which comes about when you think about the existence of a god. Obviously, he couldn't just "happen" or spring into existence, since that's what you can't imagine happening with life, right? Then, therefore, he must have been created by something else. But then that something else would've had to have been created by something else entirely as well. In fact, as you think about it, it only just goes on forever, becoming an infinite regression. If you know anything about math, you will know that receiving an infinite answer means that the problem was done incorrectly. In reality, god doesn't really solve the issue of how life exists; he/she/it compounds it.

Now, as an alternative, you really do have to start seriously considering how life might have started from non-living materials; how something came from something else (it's not ever really something actually coming from nothing). First off, I want to just make something clear. Life did not suddenly "pop" into existence, not there one moment and suddenly there the next. The build up to life was probably a very long process, and probably for a long time wasn't really "life" as we'd call it. There are a multitude of theories as how to life started, and you can easily look a lot of them by searching wikipedia, all of which does not depend on a supernatural deity needing to "start" things or create them.

It is often the mistake that religious people make when it comes to evolution and Darwinism is that they're theories of pure chance. They always view it as somehow they're all about whatever chance it was to get started, to the chance of having a hand, the chance of having an eye, and so on so forth. That is patently not how natural selection works. It is far from a theory of chance, it is a careful and gradual process and specifically selects for certain attributes that benefit an organism's survival. The only chance there really is the chance of life starting, but once life starts, it's shaped and molded by the deterministic, non-random process of natural selection.

And, as for the chance of life starting, it may seem like a formidable statistic, but as aeghrur said, if you spread it over the significant amount of time that the Earth has been around, it becomes much less so. But, I also want to put forward this, no matter how statistically improbable it is for life to start, it is significantly more improbable for the existence of a deity capable of creating life. A designer is much more complex than the thing he creates, so if life is a complicated thing, imagine how complicated a deity would have to be to have the knowledge and foresight and ability to create it. So complicated that it would night impossible for such a thing to exist.

As for how well suited we seem to be to our planet, it is of course the case, as it is a by product of evolving to survive on this world. Of course we would seem well-adapted to living on it because we would've died off if we hadn't been. Also, just as one would expect from a blind process such as natural selection, we are far from perfectly fit in our world. For example, our blood vessels in our eyes are in front of the light sensitive cells that we use to see. Because of that, our eyesight is not as clear as it could be, and it gives us a blind spot where the blood vessels fit through. However, squid, on the other hand, have their eyes in what would seem from all viewpoints the better configuration. Their blood vessels are behind their light sensitive photocells, not obscuring them or creating any blindspots. Why would a god give a such better designed eye to some squid in the sea and not to his supposedly chosen race?

ok how do you know adam and eve didnt exist? did you know that because adam and eve sinned we are like this? that we have a choice to make now? we were clean until we sinned. the first sin of man, (adam and eve) condemned every single one of us to be guilty of sin. thats where Jesus comes in.

and i am afraid of going to hell, arent you? if i feel in my heart that God exists but refuse to believe anyways i should be sent to hell. i would deserve it. not because i say so, but because the Bible does.

I find this story, if I can use such a strong word, obnoxious. First off, the story of there being only two humans at one point is fictional to the point of being laughable. Second off, why would a supposedly loving god condemn all future generations of mankind for one guy eating a fruit? If he didn't want them to eat the fruit, he could've put the tree somewhere else, or, you know, not have made it at all. But, no, he plunks it right down there in front of them, gives them free will, then goes wandering willy nilly. And when they eat it, they realize they're naked, which is obviously the absolutely worst revelation you could ever have about yourself. Then they get punished forever, just because they found out they were naked.

Then to bring up children to believe this story? That somehow they're condemned and tainted from the very moment they're born and will burn forever in hell if they don't do explicitly as the Church says? It's almost unconscionable to me. Scaring children in such a way is abuse.