1.1.3 Patch Notes Discussion

[TTTTTsd]

You..want the super human demigod with a sword bigger then a grown man to have a fast jab?

No, you THINK you want that.

You do NOT want that.

What bothers me more is that we lack the context to even call it bad. Active frames, FAF, etc.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, what seems to be a utilt is frame 6, and his aerials don't look slow for how disjointed he appears. Looking at the numbers in general, he's not Ike.

 

[Kofu]

What you think I like that fact that Marth and every other sword character is a laggy berserker?

Marth should probably be a bit more fluid than he is, but you have a smash attack that comes out on frame 10 and can kill around 50% when sweetspotted. Meanwhile my FSmash is frame 17 and kills around 100% when sweetspotted. They arguably serve different niches though as mine has lower recovery time. And hey, at least you have autocancels, I'm stuck here with a minimum recovery time of 12 frames for landing with any of my aerials.

Honestly Marth feels like he needs a few choice damage buffs to me and he got yet a few more this time. He's all right.

 

[LancerStaff]

What you think I like that fact that Marth and every other sword character is a laggy berserker?

Yaknow, besides Pit...

 

[Jterr]

When you do update the character list for 100%, I was wondering what order you will be going in. Maybe you could start with low tier characters like Zelda? ???

Really disappointed Sakurai didn't do anything with her like he did with the other low tier characters... v_v.. her and Samus were robbed of buffs.



In Pokemon it likely measures his weight if he was in a coma without using his psychic ability. In Smash he is constantly floating with his Psychic ability. Makes sense why he's lighter.

huh. Never thought of it that way. Good point

 

[TTTTTsd]

I mean, what seems to be a utilt is frame 6, and his aerials don't look slow for how disjointed he appears. Looking at the numbers in general, he's not Ike.

Thinkaman please don't tempt me with such mouth-wateringly delightful info!

It's good to know his frame data seems solid though.

 

[JosePollo]

Something to note: Lucas's f-tilt right now hits 7-8, not 7-9 as it says in the patch notes. He's going from 2 frames of hitbox to 4 frames, which actually matches the PSI effect happening during the animation of the attack. Right now it's 7-8, then 9-10 the PSI just kinda hovers there doing nothing, then fades out.

Lucas tho... A LOT of lag off his grabs and a more damaging nair?? Did not expect that at all but dang that's some good news

Not counting pummels, he can now probably do down throw (6.5%) double nair (24%) to up air (13%) for a whopping 0%-43.5% combo guaranteed off of DI reads.

Actually I'm not sure how much the extra 4% on nairs will affect how well you can connect the up air afterwards, since the frame 26 hitbox of nair has 140 KBG and up air has a useless hitbox, but a 0-43%+ sounds nice right now :3

I'd check for the Lucas data, but I don't know the source of these data leaks.

 

[Epok]

Not counting pummels, he can now probably do down throw (6.5%) double nair (24%) to up air (13%) for a whopping 0%-43.5% combo guaranteed off of DI reads.

Actually I'm not sure how much the extra 4% on nairs will affect how well you can connect the up air afterwards, since the frame 26 hitbox of nair has 140 KBG and up air has a useless hitbox, but a 0-43%+ sounds nice right now :3

I'd check for the Lucas data, but I don't know the source of these data leaks.

His uair hit box is small, but considering the fact that he has a hoo-hah kill set up I wouldn't call it useless.

 

[crashbfan]

 

[JosePollo]

His uair hit box is small, but considering the fact that he has a hoo-hah kill set up I wouldn't call it useless.

I also wouldn't mind less KBG on nair's frame 26 hitbox and an auto-cancel before frame 35, but there's no way that's happening.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Wait so all this stuff we know NOW, can any of it be changed just before it fully comes out?
I hope Kirbys massive Uthrow buff stays permanent....but sadly nothing for Zelda

Mod Edit: Dee accidentally hit submit early with an incomplete post. I warned him for spam before he edited his intended post in; that warning has been undone.

 

[Luig]

Forgot How to Words?


I would like it if Lucas had an aerial that autocancelled in a short hop, but at least nair has little end lag, and should be able to put on some shield pressure now I think....

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I've been digging through Cloud's file, and here's what I've found:

It's really ugly and really hard to read. Here's what I can extract from reading; this is all manual work trying to interpret a very, very ambiguous file that has moves in no particular order whatsoever.

Jab1 is f7, does 3% damage, fixed knockback. Jab 2 and jab 3 are not fixed knockback and seem to do 4% each (so a full jab combo from Cloud is a decent 11% damage).

Some move I suspect is fsmash sets a bit on f6 (charge frame?), and then it hits three times starting on f19 for 3%, 2/3/4% (depends on which hitbox makes contact), and hten either 13% or 12% depending on which hitbox makes contact. It's a really powerful kill move (119 kbg/42 bkb/special angle 361).

Another move I suspect is utilt hits on frame 6 at a 95 degree angle (almost straight up but slightly behind the user) for 8% damage and again impressively high knockback (100 kbg/46 bkb). This move has four active frames.

Some weird move that I suspect is grab pummel hits on frame 5 for 3% damage and fixed knockback over only one active frame.

He has some two hit move I am not sure about that hits on frame 20 the first time and frame 24 the second time at a fairly low angle of 48 degrees. it does 7% damage with each hit and seems to have little kill power but some bonus shield damage. This might be get-up attack from lying on the ground? This move seems to be at least three places in Cloud's code which would make sense for a get-up attack (there are several essential identical versions of this on every character).

What I suspect to be fair or dair has a bit set on frame 3 (pre-hit auto-cancel?), hits on frame 18, and has a ton of hitboxes but the main meteor does 14% with 90 kbg/20 bkb while the late hit does 11%. That bit is unset on frame 43 (after-hit auto-cancel?).

What I suspect to be dsmash sets a bit on frame 3 (charge frame?), hits on frame 8 for 4% damage sending them nearly straight back, and then way later on frame 21 it hits for 12% damage with 96 kbg/35 bkb at a low angle (35 degrees).

Some move I suspect is an aerial sets a bit on frame 5 (pre-hit auto-cancel?), hits on frame 11 for 13% damage and decent knockback (special angle 361 which is a forward hit so this is probably not uair/95 kbg/20 bkb), makes a second hitbox that is nearly identical a frame later, stops being active at all the frame after that (so probably not nair), and has that bit clear which is probably an auto-cancel on frame 37. If I were a betting man, I'd go with this being bair, but don't quote me on that.

Cloud has some kind of special hitbox that does 10% damage and instantly breaks a shield (bonus 50 shield damage). It's also a really powerful kill move (120 kbg/100 bkb). I wonder if it's a part of Omnislash?

Some move hits on frame 9 for 11% damage at special angle 361 for 100 kbg/20 bkb with two active frames. It has nothing special going on with it at all which means it's not an aerial or a smash or a special move; my money is on ftilt.

Cloud's three grabs hit on frame 7, 10, and 11. There's no way for me to tell them apart, but I'd assume that's standing, running, pivot.

Some move on Cloud that could be an aerial hits on frame 4 for only 2.5% damage at various angles that tend to be pretty high (most of the hitboxes are at an 82 degree angle). On frame 8 it sets a bit that is the same bit I suspect is used for auto-cancel, and it sets another bit on f12. This could be Cloud's weird uair, but if so, does it really only do 2.5% damage?

Some move is a two hit move that hits on frame 9 for 11% damage with 60 degree angle/60 kbg/ 100 bkb with the first hit and then 8% with 65 degree angle, 50 kbg, and 100 bkb with a late hit. Overall this move is active for 10 frames with each hit taking up half of the time. Dash attack?

Some move I suspect to be usmash sets a bit on frame 7 (charge frame?), hits on frame 15 for 13%/12% damage at a high angle (83 degrees) with 96 kbg/40 bkb and then has a weaker hit starting on frame 18 that only does 8%.

One of Cloud's moves has hitboxes that keep generating up until frame 285, but they all do relatively low damage (the first one is way back on frame 7 for only 2%). Cross Slash? The intermediate part of Omnislash?

One of Cloud's aerials has a pre-hit autocancel ending on frame 5, hits on frame 11 with a 15% damage meteor (as well as various other hits), has a weaker later hit for 8%, is active for a long time (until frame 29), and has what looks like a post-hit auto-cancel on frame 37. This is either fair or dair, no way to tell them apart.

Cloud has something that uses special angle 366. I have no idea what that special angle does; it's very novel!

Summary:

frame 7 jab
frame 6 utilt
frame 9 ftilt
I didn't find dtilt
frame 19 fsmash that hits *really* hard
frame 15 usmash that hits kinda not so hard
frame 8 dsmash that does a total of 16% damage and seems incredible
I didn't find nair
Two meteors that hit on frames 15 and 18, both with pretty similar numbers all around.
Frame 11 bair that auto-cancels on frame 37 (that's pretty good!)
Grabs on frames 7/10/11
A super weird frame 4 uair that does like no damage that I have a feeling I'm misreading somehow.

Consider none of that reliable given how nearly unreadable the file was.

 

[Xygonn]

I've been digging through Cloud's file, and here's what I've found:

It's really ugly and really hard to read. Here's what I can extract from reading; this is all manual work trying to interpret a very, very ambiguous file that has moves in no particular order whatsoever.

Jab1 is f7, does 3% damage, fixed knockback. Jab 2 and jab 3 are not fixed knockback and seem to do 4% each (so a full jab combo from Cloud is a decent 11% damage).

Some move I suspect is fsmash sets a bit on f6 (charge frame?), and then it hits three times starting on f19 for 3%, 2/3/4% (depends on which hitbox makes contact), and hten either 13% or 12% depending on which hitbox makes contact. It's a really powerful kill move (119 kbg/42 bkb/special angle 361).

Another move I suspect is utilt hits on frame 6 at a 95 degree angle (almost straight up but slightly behind the user) for 8% damage and again impressively high knockback (100 kbg/46 bkb). This move has four active frames.

Some weird move that I suspect is grab pummel hits on frame 5 for 3% damage and fixed knockback over only one active frame.

He has some two hit move I am not sure about that hits on frame 20 the first time and frame 24 the second time at a fairly low angle of 48 degrees. it does 7% damage with each hit and seems to have little kill power but some bonus shield damage. This might be get-up attack from lying on the ground? This move seems to be at least three places in Cloud's code which would make sense for a get-up attack (there are several essential identical versions of this on every character).

What I suspect to be fair or dair has a bit set on frame 3 (pre-hit auto-cancel?), hits on frame 18, and has a ton of hitboxes but the main meteor does 14% with 90 kbg/20 bkb while the late hit does 11%. That bit is unset on frame 43 (after-hit auto-cancel?).

What I suspect to be dsmash sets a bit on frame 3 (charge frame?), hits on frame 8 for 4% damage sending them nearly straight back, and then way later on frame 21 it hits for 12% damage with 96 kbg/35 bkb at a low angle (35 degrees).

Some move I suspect is an aerial sets a bit on frame 5 (pre-hit auto-cancel?), hits on frame 11 for 13% damage and decent knockback (special angle 361 which is a forward hit so this is probably not uair/95 kbg/20 bkb), makes a second hitbox that is nearly identical a frame later, stops being active at all the frame after that (so probably not nair), and has that bit clear which is probably an auto-cancel on frame 37. If I were a betting man, I'd go with this being bair, but don't quote me on that.

Cloud has some kind of special hitbox that does 10% damage and instantly breaks a shield (bonus 50 shield damage). It's also a really powerful kill move (120 kbg/100 bkb). I wonder if it's a part of Omnislash?

Some move hits on frame 9 for 11% damage at special angle 361 for 100 kbg/20 bkb with two active frames. It has nothing special going on with it at all which means it's not an aerial or a smash or a special move; my money is on ftilt.

Cloud's three grabs hit on frame 7, 10, and 11. There's no way for me to tell them apart, but I'd assume that's standing, running, pivot.

Some move on Cloud that could be an aerial hits on frame 4 for only 2.5% damage at various angles that tend to be pretty high (most of the hitboxes are at an 82 degree angle). On frame 8 it sets a bit that is the same bit I suspect is used for auto-cancel, and it sets another bit on f12. This could be Cloud's weird uair, but if so, does it really only do 2.5% damage?

Some move is a two hit move that hits on frame 9 for 11% damage with 60 degree angle/60 kbg/ 100 bkb with the first hit and then 8% with 65 degree angle, 50 kbg, and 100 bkb with a late hit. Overall this move is active for 10 frames with each hit taking up half of the time. Dash attack?

Some move I suspect to be usmash sets a bit on frame 7 (charge frame?), hits on frame 15 for 13%/12% damage at a high angle (83 degrees) with 96 kbg/40 bkb and then has a weaker hit starting on frame 18 that only does 8%.

One of Cloud's moves has hitboxes that keep generating up until frame 285, but they all do relatively low damage (the first one is way back on frame 7 for only 2%). Cross Slash? The intermediate part of Omnislash?

One of Cloud's aerials has a pre-hit autocancel ending on frame 5, hits on frame 11 with a 15% damage meteor (as well as various other hits), has a weaker later hit for 8%, is active for a long time (until frame 29), and has what looks like a post-hit auto-cancel on frame 37. This is either fair or dair, no way to tell them apart.

Cloud has something that uses special angle 366. I have no idea what that special angle does; it's very novel!

Summary:

frame 7 jab
frame 6 utilt
frame 9 ftilt
I didn't find dtilt
frame 19 fsmash that hits *really* hard
frame 15 usmash that hits kinda not so hard
frame 8 dsmash that does a total of 16% damage and seems incredible
I didn't find nair
Two meteors that hit on frames 15 and 18, both with pretty similar numbers all around.
Frame 11 bair that auto-cancels on frame 37 (that's pretty good!)
Grabs on frames 7/10/11
A super weird frame 4 uair that does like no damage that I have a feeling I'm misreading somehow.

Consider none of that reliable given how nearly unreadable the file was.

Nice work. Any chance the frame 6 big knockback hit is upb and not utilt?

366 is an autolinking angle, it's in Dedede's uair and Falco's fair for example.

 

[Luig]

Yeah, the autolink angle just means it sends the opponent in the direction of the attacker:
Take Little Mac's nair for example, if he's falling it's a meteor smash, if he's rising they go up with him.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Nice work. Any chance the frame 6 big knockback hit is upb and not utilt?

366 is an autolinking angle, it's in Dedede's uair and Falco's fair for example.

It seems unlikely; special moves tend to be surrounded by really crazy code, and Cloud's utilt as I recall is a fairly normal looking move with nothing else looking like a candidate for utilt in the file (I probably didn't find dtilt since it was surrounded by garbage involving how the slide works, and I have no clue how I missed nair but digging through the whole file again looking for it doesn't sound fun). That being said, it's possible; the file is *really* hard to read.

Thanks for the info on that angle. I didn't realize that was one of the more common special angles (the only one I remember off-hand is 361 which is everywhere, and I know in Brawl, all of the others were super obscure but I thought they only went up to 365 in that game).

 

[WD40]

if i am remembering things correctly
a state can refer to any number of things, there are normal states such as standing grounded, air borne, running, charging a smash, special fall. These would be examples of states everyone has.
Then you can have things like character specific states for someone like say sonic when he uses up special he goes into a state where he can still use aerials, but no longer is able to use special moves.
so overall if 1 random state had 1 random change in it, it can be really hard to tell. could be anything to something that doesn't effect gameplay to special fall landing lag.

That's kinda what I was imagining, thanks for clearing it up. I can see now that whatever this changed is very minor.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm gonna be that one guy...

Does anybody know WHEN exactly this update will be released? I am looking right now and not seeing any update or DLC. I imagine it will be coming like within the next couple hours?

 

[S_B]

I'm gonna be that one guy...

Does anybody know WHEN exactly this update will be released? I am looking right now and not seeing any update or DLC. I imagine it will be coming like within the next couple hours?

You know all that we know: the direct said "a few hours". That's all we have to go on. :\

 

[WinterWonter]

You know all that we know: the direct said "a few hours". That's all we have to go on. :\

Did they even say the update though? Pretty sure they only said Cloud would release in a few hours. Where are people even getting info on this update anyway?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Did they even say the update though? Pretty sure they only said Cloud would release in a few hours. Where are people even getting info on this update anyway?

A new update is required, because Cloud, the new Mii outfits, and the new Mii headgear are incompatible with version 1.1.2.

 

[Gemba Board]

Did they even say the update though? Pretty sure they only said Cloud would release in a few hours. Where are people even getting info on this update anyway?

Cloud won't apply to ver.1.1.2. An update is all too necessary.

 

[Thinkaman]

I bought Cloud and am installing it on both platforms now. Going to look at Lucas first, then play around with Cloud.

 

[Bribery]

Kirby's Up Throw buff was massive. It KOs Mario at the center of FD at 148% (was 180% pre-patch).

 

[FullMoon]

I'm definitely feeling the difference in Lucas's standing grab.

 

[Linkshot]

not sure if this was posted on page 2 but https://twitter.com/_StylesX2/status/676918577220423680 you can walljump on Omega Kalos now

 

[Luig]

lucas grab is real omg.
Link's dmash, I tested, kills 7% earlier than before fully charged.
Also, i noticed a lot of differences between the cloud trailer and cloud now.

Also, around 95% bowser's uthrow true combos into a uair for the kill.

 

[JosePollo]

Can anyone give a link to the raw files? I'd like to have a look at them myself.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Koopa Klaw also now has invincibility while Bowser is grounded after grabbing someone and is much faster. Mainly applicable for doubles.

UThrow - UAir seems temperamental based on rage.

UThrow - UTilt at low percents is guaranteed

UThrow - NAir at mid percents seems temperamental.

Dark Pit's Electroshock change is actually absurdly good. The move actually kills below 100.

Mewtwo BAir still misses grounded opponents next to him. sigh...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon writeup:
N-air is worse, first hit sucks outside of comboing into the 2nd hit. However it has frame speedups, meaning in the air, you can now FH N-air -> other actions before you hit the ground.
Dark Dive can kill people at the edge around like 140%.
D-smash PROPERLY sends people away from Ganon on block, instead of pulling them towards him. No longer reverses people on hit.
No SA on aerial WP...
D-air has more range, meaning you can now FH AC D-air and hit certain humanoid characters more easily, whereas previously this was heavily inconsistent/impossible.

Not completely sure what the SideB changes are though.

 

[wizardto1]

Flying Slam is so much faster now. Faster than Brawl even.

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Appears as though Link has been overall buffed, with FSmash 2 and DSmash having more knockback (less growth but more base for DSmash), FAir looks like it will be much more useful for us to use. DAir not spiking grounded opponents is a bit sad for me, but I suppose that means that really weird knockback will have to be what Ill get. And any buffs to Link's Up B are appreciated - if there are buffs.

Little Mac having no changes is quite dissapointing, but I'm not arguing because there isn't any unnecessary nerfs or worthless buffs such as a damage increase to NAir. Happy he remained as he has.

From my understanding of Marth/Lucina's change, their Dancing Blade 3 now has a better angle for chaining the whole attack together? Sounds great! I love Dancing Blade as a move and anything to make it better is good in my book.

Robin's FTilt, NAir, FAir have increased range? Thank god. Especially for NAir, I felt as though it had rather pitiful range for a neutral aerial and I'm sad that it got that change instead of just being faster. DAir having more damage AND more range sounds nice. Just give him Snake's Up Tilt range. All I ask.

And the overall buffs for Shulk's damage output by 0.5% is great; I was anticipating something like this occuring.

Overall, sounds great for the characters I play, all were buffed and no nerfs to any of them.

EDIT: Gonna be doing some testing with Little Mac for Kill %s just in case. Hopefully nothing changes or things will be helpful.

 

[JosePollo]

I've been digging through Cloud's file, and here's what I've found:

1. Cloud has some kind of special hitbox that does 10% damage and instantly breaks a shield (bonus 50 shield damage). It's also a really powerful kill move (120 kbg/100 bkb). I wonder if it's a part of Omnislash?

2. One of Cloud's aerials has a pre-hit autocancel ending on frame 5, hits on frame 11 with a 15% damage meteor (as well as various other hits), has a weaker later hit for 8%, is active for a long time (until frame 29), and has what looks like a post-hit auto-cancel on frame 37. This is either fair or dair, no way to tell them apart.

3. Cloud has something that uses special angle 366. I have no idea what that special angle does; it's very novel!

1. It might be a Limit Break-boosted special? No idea. Would have to actually look at the files.
2. Given the length of the active hitbox that's probably dair you're looking at, since fair is just one huge swipe
3. Might be the aerial form of his side b, since most multi-hitting aerial attacks use 366 and weight-based/fixed knockback to link reliably.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Koopa Klaw also now has invincibility while Bowser is grounded after grabbing someone and is much faster. Mainly applicable for doubles.

Does that invincibility allow Bowser to ignore Luma when he grabs Rosalina? Was Luma able to break Rosalina out of Bowser's klaw before?

I am not sure what a faster slam animation itself does, expect make it easier to get it off without interruption in FFA.

 

[Ghostbone]

Not really that relevant to competition but Sonic's eyes are actually cloudy on midgar.
Like the white of his eyes is replaced by the sky.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Does that invincibility allow Bowser to ignore Luma when he grabs Rosalina? Was Luma able to break Rosalina out of Bowser's klaw before?

I am not sure what a faster slam animation itself does, expect make it easier to get it off without interruption in FFA.

TEAMS, not free for all. It does make the move more realistic to use in doubles though (though it already was).

We still get broken out of the flip by luma. It's only on the initial grab, before Bowser flings into the air.

Though I have to note, I've never had luma break slam on 3DS, only on Wii U. I don't own a Wii U to actually test, unfortunately.

 

[Marm']

That may sound silly or absolutely dumb/wrong but from what i can get out of this clip when you push people near the ledge while they are shieldbreak it cancels the stun animation (?)

 

[Zoramine Fae]

Any noticeable changes to Little Mac compared to previous update results (Against Mario, I have all of Mac's moves with kill %s from back then) and current results:
I am NOT a code breaker and stuff, so forgive me if I am wrong.


FSmash kills 3% earlier with a normal tilt, maybe there is a KB growth increase. Was 62%, now it is 59%.

And now opinion-based ones also during testing:
May just be conditioning, but Jolt Haymaker grounded FEELS faster. May not be an actual increase in speed.
Neutral Special 1's strong hit lasts longer (?) During testing for Mario's death % it seemed to be able to go not that far away and it wouldn't hit with the 25 damage hitbox. Now it does. Weird.


No other ~NOTICEABLE~ changes. Maybe there is a few active frame/FAF differences (I feel as though Up Tilt has a minimally faster FAF frame, not sure). Otherwise, no changes to report here.

 

[Dwiz]

Is facing restriction the thing that happens with Falco's Nair where no matter what, Falco will always send you flying the way he's facing? I'm going to assume the change, the set to 4, on Ganondorf's Down Smash only sends you back, so no weird interactions where he sends you forward. Makes sense since he's kicking you back.

This would explain why the angle is changed from 130 to 50 and yet the knockback appears to be the exact same. Instead of sending you 130 degrees from where Ganondorf is facing, it sends you 50 from his back side. Same thing, less jank.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Bowser's Up B can now auto-snap the ledge if he is facing backwards. Pretty neat change. I wonder what else is missing. :O

Sorry if this was already reported.