ZSS in Brawl- (A future reference topic)

[Xyless]

As ZSS is the only character to not really have a build for Brawl-, I figure maybe it'd be a good idea to open up the discussion to the people who actually have plenty of experience with her. I currently plan on working on the Peach PSA (possibly this weekend), but since Peach has an alpha build set up, I figure maybe I'll look at ZSS instead.

Now, the goal here is to break Zamus, to the point where she is ridiculously fun to play. If you want a few examples of other Brawl- projects, Luigi has a trip movement that does decent damage, Ganondorf's warlock punch does 666% damage if it connects, and DK's down B can now spawn a barrel if held instead of pressed. The idea is to try to keep her personality, but multiply it about tenfold.

So what I'd like you to do, is really think what you think would just be ridiculous, but in a fun way, with most of her moves, and try to make everything as usable as possible, because you have to compete with...well...other broken characters.

I'm going to put my ideas in the second post, and leave this first post for ideas that I feel (and possibly others agree with) are best for ZSS. Anyway, here goes.

Jab1 -
Jab2 -
Jab3 -
Dash Attack -
Ftilt -
Utilt -
Dtilt -
Fsmash -
Usmash -
Dsmash -
Nair -
Fair -
Bair -
Uair -
Dair -
Grabs -
Pummel -
Fthrow -
Bthrow -
Uthrow -
Dthrow -
NSpecial -
SSpecial -
USpecial -
DSpecial -
Tether -
Attribute changes -



Remember, BE CREATIVE. We can do whatever we want, including adding Peach sounds wherever we want.

If you want an example of what this can do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fttvOt43NLM

WE HAVE TO COMBAT THAT. GO

 

[Xyless]

Simplified (because I don't know exact frame data as reference)

Jab1 -
Jab2 - Increase range, decrease cooldown
Jab3 - Increase range, increase knockback
Dash Attack - Decrease cooldown, possibly be able to cancel it after the hitbox is done with another attack.
Ftilt - Change trajectory based on direction aimed.
Utilt - Remove cooldown after second hitbox comes out. Makes it more reliable OOS.
Dtilt - If sweetspotted, do similar properties as ZSS fair (increased power, hitstun, and knockback)
Fsmash - Remove cooldown frames after whip goes behind her back, make entire move about as fast as MK's dsmash. Doesn't really need a strength buff with how much range and speed it will have.
Usmash -
Dsmash - More damage, can only be powershielded, otherwise it breaks shield as hard as DK's fspecial.
Nair - Cooldown lag is removed.
Fair - Second hitbox is stronger.
Bair -
Uair -
Dair - Decrease duration of move radically, keep stop&drop (but with shorter move, don't have to worry about suiciding), or replace it entirely
Grabs - Pivot grab is as fast as Lucas' pivot grab, normal grab is either halved in duration or can grab the entire time the whip is out.
Pummel -
Fthrow -
Bthrow -
Uthrow - Lag after the flip is removed. Damage and knockback increased greatly (new best throw), can kill around 130% with Mario without proper DI.
Dthrow - Sticks opponent in ground
NSpecial - Moves faster, especially fully charged. Charges faster.
SSpecial - Shield stun increased
USpecial - Cooldown is decreased, making this more spammable (for recovering and spiking)
DSpecial - Either make every hitbox the spike, or remove the landing lag. POSSIBLE ADDON: Hold DSpecial while on ground to pull out an armor piece. Can only have one (maybe 2?) armor piece out at a time.
Tether -
Attribute changes - Give 3 jumps maybe. Sheik has 3 jumps, Falco has 4. And having more jumps would probably suit ZSS well.

 

[kuenzel]

Make it so her dsmash stuns people in place for about 5 seconds, and no hits will knock them out of it.

Make Up air do about 20 more damage, almost no knockback and gove opponent more hitstun, so this thing can combo to death.

Samus' neutral b now goes twice as far, does 3 times the damage and has the same properties as downsmash, but only 3 seconds.

Downair has no ending lag, and has VERY strong wind, with the properties comparable to links dair

Bair air and Fair now sets the person on fire like her side b, does more damage, and kills much faster.

Side b will break shield if blocked, otherwise the same

Down b footstool now reaches from anywhere, meaning she always gets a free footstool, and can screw up the oppontent. down b spike frames get so much knockback it will kill at zero, and do 80 damage.

Down b glancing blow kills even easier than before, and gives the opponent more hitstun, think of it like just barely dieing im melee.

Taunting spawns 1 suit peice, up to a maximum of 3.

Her tethers go EVEN FARTHER, and the boost from jumping before up b is now the equivalent of a full jump+double jump.
Up b now strong spikes on every frame, same strength as before.
The cooldown on it is also extremely small, allowing her if need be to use it once to get opponent off the ledge (killing them most likely) and using it again to get back on.

If I played a ZSS like this, I would never stop laughing

 

[xxpatgxx]

ZSS's can now zair the stage for recovery, which would work in the same fashion as Suited Samus's. This is to add more recovery options.

Charged neutral Bs that connect sap opponents % like pikmin or lipstick.

She gains super armor when crawling, and crawls twice the regular speed.

 

[xxpatgxx]

I like how in melee character's who could potentially be knocked off the stage by an attack, screamed as they took the hit. I hope that feature returns in B-

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

i posted about this already.

also dont worry, kirk got this. kirk = instawin

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

i posted about this already.

also dont worry, kirk got this. kirk = instawin

IIRC your first suggestion was "Jab does 666 damage and hits like WP".

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

no it was 2frame dedede fsmash instead of jab

 

[Adapt]

Ok here are my Brawl- Ideas


Overall:
Faster running and jumping speed.
Somewhat faster fast-fall as well
Allow her jump to conserve running momentum ~half of CFs
Shorter short hop

Moveset

Jab: make sure it combos properly on all chars, and make the third hit stronger
Ftilt: make the low angle always trip
dtilt: faster, set knockback, allows a true combo into uair/bair
utilt: a bit more knockback, much less landing lag
dash attack: add IASA frames on the end

Grab: (All) 5 frames
F-throw: make it a killer at higher %
D-throw: set knockback, true combo into uair
U-throw: reduce ending lag
B-throw: horizontal knockback backwards

F-smash: make this move much faster and have horizontal knockback. Make it eat shields and trip on the tip hitbox
D-smash: increase damage, reduced startup time. Maybe set knockback
U-smash: allow us to hold A and keep spinning our whip in the air above us

Nair: make this move stun (less than d-smash)
Fair: increase damage and make sure first hit less SDIable
Bair: Horizontal knockback, stronger
Uair: make this move faster and have less knockback
Dair: allow us to cancel this with a jump, and autocancel on landing. Make it a stronger spike

N-B: Spawn armor piece (limit number of pieces to 2) reduce the amount of time the armor piece is active.
F-B: Increase startup speed
D-B: return this after getting hit. allow us to footstool stage objects. give it more invulnerable frames at the beginning
U-B: set knockback (not enough to allow teching), make this much harder to DI away from it.

Really, allowing ZSS to spawn an armor piece is going to be incredibly nasty. I really hope you can do that


I can't wait to play with ZSS-

And I'd like to add:
Make it so we can jab cancel properly
and maybe instead of the knockback changes to F-smash, make it stun someone if the whip hits them

 

[ThreeSided]

Jab1 -
Jab2 - Increase range, increase hitstun, decrease cooldown
Jab3 - Increase range, increase hitstun
Dash Attack - Decrease cooldown, and... can you change properties to give her a DACUS? That would be cool. ^_^
Ftilt - Up-tilted Ftilt always trips, Mid has a lot more hitstun, and Down has a HUGE hitbox, can hit on the edge, and hits BACKWARDS, so it can stage spike. xD
Utilt - "Remove cooldown after second hitbox comes out. Makes it more reliable OOS."
Dtilt - "If sweetspotted, do similar properties as ZSS fair (increased power, hitstun, and knockback)" Extend range.
Fsmash - "Remove cooldown frames after whip goes behind her back, make entire move about as fast as MK's dsmash." THIS MOVE WILL BE EPIC. Hear me out: Shield breaking properties, and if it doesn't land on shield, it GRABS them. How awesome is that?
Usmash - Make the whole thing BROKEN big. Like, LOL huge.
Dsmash - "More damage, can only be powershielded, otherwise it breaks shield as hard as DK's fspecial."
Nair - "Cooldown lag is removed."
Fair - "Second hitbox is stronger."
Bair -
Uair -
Dair - No stop&drop. Just make it a normal aerial, but otherwise, leave it alone. Maybe reduce landing lag.
Grabs - "Pivot grab is as fast as Lucas' pivot grab, normal grab is either halved in duration or can grab the entire time the whip is out." Give her a Zair. Same as Samus's, except shorter, and the color of ZSS's whip.
Pummel -
Fthrow - Reduce cooldown
Bthrow -Lower trajectory, or higher knockback. Pick one.
Uthrow - "Lag after the flip is removed. Damage and knockback increased greatly (new best throw), can kill around 130% with Mario without proper DI."
Dthrow - Tech chase move.
NSpecial - Always comes out fully charged.
SSpecial - "Shield stun increased"
USpecial - "Cooldown is decreased, making this more spammable (for recovering and spiking)" Increase range.
DSpecial - "Either make every hitbox the spike, or remove the landing lag. POSSIBLE ADDON: Hold DSpecial while on ground to pull out an armor piece. Can only have one (maybe 2?) armor piece out at a time." Can use again after being hit. Extend horizontal distance covered greatly, so it's better for recovery and escaping stuff.
Tether - Give some invincibility frames for half a second, maybe less, after successful tether.
Attribute changes - "Give 3 jumps maybe. Sheik has 3 jumps, Falco has 4. And having more jumps would probably suit ZSS well." Make her fast-fall faster. And give her the unique ability to cancel her fastfall with an aerial. This will make her absolutely **** in the air, as it should be.

 

[Zero]

Doesn't the workshop have dedicated boards to discuss these things?

 

[Snakeee]

ignore this post

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What makes ZSS awesome is her ability to stun. That and her combo game is what makes her unique and cool. So that's where a lot of my suggestions are going to come from; enhancing her ability to combo to ridiculous levels and making her stun game deadly and awesome.

Jab1 - Doesn't need a lot of work.
Jab2 - Should stun, allowing cancelling options
Jab3 - Kill move
Dash Attack - Always trips
Ftilt - much much much faster
Utilt - half the cooldown frames
Dtilt - fine as is
Fsmash - breaks shields
Usmash - fine as is
Dsmash - Comes out much, much faster, has less ending lag, and stuns for a longer period of time, no longer cancels movement when used (so it doesn't stop sliding)
Nair - stuns like paralyzer
Fair - first hit stuns
Bair - fine as is, could stand to kill earlier though. also consider making it not enter the stale moves table
Uair - pretty broken as is
Dair - remove landing lag
Grabs - each grab is 5 frames, lag greatly reduced when missed. address z-axis grab nonsense if possible
Pummel - electricity animation
Fthrow - force tech
Bthrow - greatly increase damage
Uthrow - kill throw
Dthrow - set amount of KB, 0 G
NSpecial - always fires full charge and animation is much faster OR spawn armor piece when held for a long time
SSpecial - comes out on frame 5
USpecial - tip pulls down, other hitboxes stun
DSpecial - refreshed when hit
Tether - zss can't tether ledges with Z, maybe ou could do that and give her a zair? I dunno what's possible
Attribute changes - faster runspeed, shorter shorthop (much shorter), doesn't lose any dash speed on pivot (like sonic, peach, etc), back roll speed doubled, wario-like airspeed

 

[Kewkky]

I was kinda thinking ZSS should be the Combo Queen of B-, since she pretty much is the Combo Queen of vBrawl... So what you'll see is me trying to make a broken-but-balanced combo moveset with ZSS's personality still in them.

Jab1 - Starts at frame 1 (keep it like that, it's awesome), ends as fast as the programmer would allow it to end (frame 2, please)
Jab2 - Set knockback and make it end faster so it would combo into Jab3 all the time.
Jab3 - Stuns like a charged paralyzer on hit, but if sweetspotted at the tip of the elbow it does 20% and kills Snake at 90% without DI (Jiggs' vBrawl rest knockback).
Dash Attack - Set knockback so players can't airdodge/attack while hit, nor SDI properly.
Ftilt - Muuuuuch faster and with strong knockback! If sweetspotted at the tip, it stuns the opponent for the same duration as a dsmash.
Utilt - Make it have 5 hitboxes instead of 2, and end as soon as the last hitbox disappears. 1-4 hitboxes have set knockback and vaccuum effect so it's unSDIable, so it can combo into the 5th hit which should do the same knockback it does on vBrawl.
Dtilt - It should have set knockback so that we can chain ANY aerial on our opponents when they pop up into the air.
Fsmash - Make it be an IMMENSELY STRONG spike (IMMENSELY STRONG) that stuns, so it can harrass opponents if they don't recover properly, much like ZSS's dsmash does in vBrawl.
Usmash - Make it have way more hitboxes! 15 if possible, one per frame. Damage output could be 2% per hit and 1-14 having a vaccuum effect to the middle of the attack (like Zelda's usmash), then the last one stun the opponent like a dsmash would... And give it LASER priority so no attacks clank with it!
Dsmash - 10% per hit, never stales, and make it come out faster (frame 5 please! I hate its slow startup in vBrawl). Make it end faster too, like at frame 15-25 so we can get more than 2 dsmashes in or mix up our options..
Nair - Shield Breaker properties, and make it give the opponent a lot of shieldstun. If it doesn't hit a shield, it should stun the opponent like a dsmash would.
Fair - First hit stuns and does 10%, second hit does 13% and can kill Snake at 130% (get it? 10 x 13 = 130!).
Bair - Semi-spike, make sure it's both horizontal AND vertical (please :D) not just horizontal knockback. It should kill Snake with DI at 130%.
Uair - It should be as fast as MK's uair in vBrawl and keep ZSS's damage output, and have set knockback so we can combo them better. If sweetspotted at the tip of the top, it should kill Snake at 100% from the floor of FD.
Dair - Make it have IASA frames as soon as the first hitbox appears until the end of the move, so we can cancel it. The dair should keep the knockback from vBrawl, but the 2nd hitbox should stun the opponent like a dsmash does so we can follow up from a dair and combo.
Grabs - Please make the grab's hitbox come out at frame 6 (or whatever is average for B-)! And give her the same ending lag if whiffed as DDD's grabs (in other words, it should be sped up a ridiculous amount).
Pummel - 2% each hit, and make each pummel spawn a flower on the opponent's head so that when we knock them away, they'll get combo'd by the flower and keep racking up damage.
Fthrow - Make it have set knockback so that we can CG the entire cast instead of heavies only (since we have to do dashgrabs to make this CG work, it'll end quickly so don't worry), and do 6% and never stale.
Bthrow - Make it have waaay less knockback and less ending lag, at least by a few frames. That way we have a reason to actually use it.
Uthrow - Make it kill Snake from the floor of FD at 100% without DI (or as strong as Ness's bthrow in vBrawl), gives us a reason to use it as well.
Dthrow - Make it spike, so that we can grab offstage enemies and dthrow them to their doom/dthrow opponents on-stage and combo them into a dsmash.
NSpecial - Make the paralizer shots move muuuch faster, and make ZSS have less start-up and ending lag on both charged and un-charged... It's up to the programmer's discretion so we don't supermegalolbreak her.
SSpecial - Make it have IASA frames as soon as the 2nd hitbox disappears, make the 2nd hitbox have shieldbreaker properties as well as inflict lots of shieldstun, and have a faster start-up on the attack instead of frame 1000000 like vBrawl has (which always lets opponents run, powershield and punish... B- should make it risky for them to make a mistake while doing that). Make the 1st small hitbox stun like an uncharged paralizer shot, then spike so we can follow-up.
USpecial - Make it be a strong spike ALWAYS at all the hitboxes it has, with the exception of the tip, where it should have a set knockback for us to combo into a bair or uair (kinda like vBrawl's knockback, but instead of it eventually getting too strong for us to follow up on time, make it so we ALWAYS follow up... Like how it should get for her when opponents are at 100%).
DSpecial - Invincibility frames from frame1 until we can attack/footstool. Make her be able to do her footstool jump no matter where she is or what's under her (even thin air!), and make her downB spike be able to kill everyone at 0% offstage. Her normal downB kick should kill people at around 115% with no DI.
Tether - Always make it frame 1, so we don't get beaten to the ledge when we want to recover. If you can give her a zair, PLEASE DO SO! And make the zair only usable for recovery purposes, and start at the fastest frame possible for B-.
Attribute changes -
*Faster walk and dash, and faster horizontal air speed
*Make her have a faster fastfall.
*Make her survive a bit longer with no DI.
*Oh please, make her have a dashdance! Whenever I use her I think to myself that she would be amazing in Melee, and that if Brawl was made to be like Melee she would've fit in PERFECTLY... A Melee-like dashdance (give her IASA for the first 15-20 frames of her dash animation) would make her ground options SOAR! She's already one of the fastest characters in Brawl at juggling, stringing and comboing... Make her feel even faster by giving our fingers something to do while waiting for the opponents' reactions!
*Make her dtaunt (the spinning pne) spawn a random armor piece, with max on-field being 1 of course (kinda like DIddy's 2-bananas-only limit... If he's got more in B-, give us 3 max pieces!). The pieces should be the same as vBrawl in everything.
*Make her sidetaunt paralyze like a dsmash would, sorta like how Luigi's dtaunt is a great spike.
*Make her utaunt's gun do 1% and spike when she throws it up until she catches it.

Hope some ideas get taken!

 

[Zero]

Can you make her jump have Screw Attack properties without changing the animation? If so, that's a beast idea that fits.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Imma gonna make sure kirk actually reads this thread. :V

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Downtaunt reflects projecitles.

:D

 

[Kirk]

Oh geez...so much to read...

So let see...I don't have a complete "to-do" list yet, but I had some ideas, including:

-Shorter short hop for a better aerial game.
-Dashing jump goes very far(i.e. carries over momentum like it should)
-Faster walk/run/air speed.
-Was debating making Fair a combo move, kind of like CFalcon's Fair, but then thought I'd be getting rid of one of her kill moves, which might not be good. Thoughts?
-Side-B have the option to kill like it is now, or have it like a "grapple" that pulls people towards you, mainly used for comboing and setups.
-Thinking of getting rid of the downward momentum on Dair, and having it like a stomping aerial instead, but I'm unsure of this yet. Thoughts?
-Nair has a larger/longer hitbox, and is suitable for comboing.
-Grabs will be either faster/longer lasting grab box/less endlag/etc.
-Fooling around with the whip...it has preset animations that can be adjusted in speed and maybe size...so there's a lot of potential...potential there, since it is used on many attacks.
-Other stuff I'm most likely forgetting.

So yeah, I'll take a look again at thread and see what can/can't be done...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Can you make it possible to cancel Dsmash by tapping L or R?

Is it possible to add a Zair?

I like your side-b idea but not so much the fair one.

 

[ph00tbag]

Simplified (because I don't know exact frame data as reference)

Jab1 -
Jab2 - Increase range, decrease cooldown
Jab3 - Increase range, increase knockback
Dash Attack - Decrease cooldown, possibly be able to cancel it after the hitbox is done with another attack.
Ftilt - Change trajectory based on direction aimed.
Utilt - Remove cooldown after second hitbox comes out. Makes it more reliable OOS.
Dtilt - If sweetspotted, do similar properties as ZSS fair (increased power, hitstun, and knockback)
Fsmash - Remove cooldown frames after whip goes behind her back, make entire move about as fast as MK's dsmash. Doesn't really need a strength buff with how much range and speed it will have.
Usmash -
Dsmash - More damage, can only be powershielded, otherwise it breaks shield as hard as DK's fspecial.
Nair - Cooldown lag is removed.
Fair - Second hitbox is stronger.
Bair -
Uair -
Dair - Decrease duration of move radically, keep stop&drop (but with shorter move, don't have to worry about suiciding), or replace it entirely
Grabs - Pivot grab is as fast as Lucas' pivot grab, normal grab is either halved in duration or can grab the entire time the whip is out.
Pummel -
Fthrow -
Bthrow -
Uthrow - Lag after the flip is removed. Damage and knockback increased greatly (new best throw), can kill around 130% with Mario without proper DI.
Dthrow - Sticks opponent in ground
NSpecial - Moves faster, especially fully charged. Charges faster.
SSpecial - Shield stun increased
USpecial - Cooldown is decreased, making this more spammable (for recovering and spiking)
DSpecial - Either make every hitbox the spike, or remove the landing lag. POSSIBLE ADDON: Hold DSpecial while on ground to pull out an armor piece. Can only have one (maybe 2?) armor piece out at a time.
Tether -
Attribute changes - Give 3 jumps maybe. Sheik has 3 jumps, Falco has 4. And having more jumps would probably suit ZSS well.

I like most of these. I've already said what I think should be done with Nspecial and Dair. If it's possible to to both, that's a good goal. I've also liked the idea of fsmash being a good shield breaker.

-Shorter short hop for a better aerial game.

Be careful that you don't overdo it. ZSS's SH double Uair is vital to her combo game, when there's more hitstun.

 

[Kirk]

Can you make it possible to cancel Dsmash by tapping L or R?

Is it possible to add a Zair?

I like your side-b idea but not so much the fair one.

1. Possible
2. More tricky, that was one of the ideas I had too actually, so hopefully I can work that in.
3. Yeah, getting rid of the kill potential on Fair probably wouldnt go over well, just thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

Be careful that you don't overdo it. ZSS's SH double Uair is vital to her combo game, when there's more hitstun.

All I had in mind was making it easier to hit chars with short hopped bairs/fairs. But thanks for bringing this to my attention. I should be able to work with that as well.

 

[Jski]

It would be cool if you could keep her wip out after doing forward B kind of like sheik with out small hits so if some one trys to power shield the end of the wip you can eat away at the shield some or some how def your self if you miss.

 

[ThreeSided]

Rather than shortening your short hop, could you possibly make it so that she can fast-fall before the peak of her jump?

Also, make her fastfall faster. And to add to that:

Give her the unique ability to cancel her fastfall with an aerial! Combined with the above, this would be absolutely incredible for aerial comboing. And let's face it, that's where this sexy girl should always dominate. ;D

 

[blazefox]

I say screw the kick d-air and replace it with a stun gun shot aimed down with the same properties as her d-smash. And make her flip kick have more then just the 13? invincibility frames it has, and instead of the kick at the end, make her shoot a fully charged stun gun shot in a retreating angle. So if she's facing right and flips to the right, make her shoot it down and to the left, so it hits anyone beneath the flips arch.

Do something to her f-smash. Replace it, for real. That or make it so it has no end lag upon hitting. Or boost the hitbox behind her so it hits just as far behind as it does in front.

I like the idea of letting her pull suit pieces out of nowhere. But once the 3 spawned ones at the start of a match disspears, she can only spawn one. Make it so it's the arm cannon everytime, if possible.

 

[lllp3lll]

Shiek turns invisable after rolling or air dodging we need some thing fancy like that. How about downtaut cause zss to become electrified acting as a Franklin Badge, and give all her move stun ability (for a short period of time or base it on the lifetime of the franklin badge.)

This would basiclly help her deal with projectiles and increase her damage output. Im asuming when electrified only her first move will stun them since most of her moves/combo take them to the air, and the way stun works they cant be re-stun till they touch the ground, so it could simple add the stun sound effect and the damage from being stuned to each move.

Edit- Stun to physical moves

 

[Nefarious B]

As far as the fair issue goes, you can compromise between kill move and combo move by making the first hit autocancel. I would recommend making fair's 1st hit have set kb so it always combos into the second hit, but the combination of these two ideas might be a bit much.

 

[Adapt]

Oh geez...so much to read...

So let see...I don't have a complete "to-do" list yet, but I had some ideas, including:

-Shorter short hop for a better aerial game.
-Dashing jump goes very far(i.e. carries over momentum like it should)
-Faster walk/run/air speed.
-Was debating making Fair a combo move, kind of like CFalcon's Fair, but then thought I'd be getting rid of one of her kill moves, which might not be good. Thoughts?
-Side-B have the option to kill like it is now, or have it like a "grapple" that pulls people towards you, mainly used for comboing and setups.
-Thinking of getting rid of the downward momentum on Dair, and having it like a stomping aerial instead, but I'm unsure of this yet. Thoughts?
-Nair has a larger/longer hitbox, and is suitable for comboing.
-Grabs will be either faster/longer lasting grab box/less endlag/etc.
-Fooling around with the whip...it has preset animations that can be adjusted in speed and maybe size...so there's a lot of potential...potential there, since it is used on many attacks.
-Other stuff I'm most likely forgetting.

So yeah, I'll take a look again at thread and see what can/can't be done...

Thoughts on some of these:

Side-B: Don't make this grapple. Instead, give us a Zair. Let the zair have the grapple and yank people towards us.
Dair: make it autocancel on landing from any height, and cancel on jump. This would give us definite mindgames to use. We don't need a stomping aerial (if by this you mean it sinks the enemy into the ground) we have stuns for immobilization.
Fair: I don't mind turning this into a combo move if we get another kill move in return. maybe make Nair kill instead. I'd rather see the move that does more damage turn into a combo move.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I love Adapt's zair idea and Nef's fair idea. +1 support.

 

[Adapt]

I totally forgot... this is something that kirk sent me a week or 2 ago. This is the tentative changelist for ZSS in brawl-

There's also a vid somewhere on youtube

~ZSS CHANGELIST~

Jab1 - WDBK:10>20.
Jab2 - WDBK:10>30, Jab3IASA:9>6, IASA:21>18.
Jab3 - DMG:3>5, Angle:361>325, KBG:100>60, If B is pressed at start, FrameSpeed:x0.1, Generates Weak Paralyzer shot.
DashAttack - HitboxDuration:6-15>6-20.

Ftilt - DMG:6>10/6>7(Hi/Mid), Angle:361>60/361>340(Hi/Low), BKB:8>20(Hi).
Utilt - FrameSpeed:x1.2 after collisions, Added additional hitbox on frames 18-20.
Dtilt - DMG:6>8.

Fsmash - DMG:6>8/9>10/11>12/13>15/6>9, ShieldDamage:0>15, Increased Size of hitboxes, HitboxDuration:9-10>9-11/11-13>12-15(strong/weak), Added AllowInterrupt frame 46.
Usmash - DMG:3>5, LoopedHits:5>9 loops.
Dsmash - DMG:11>13.

Nair - Increased Size of hitboxes, AutoCancelWindow:4-42>1>30, Added AllowInterrupt frame 35.
Fair - DMG:10>11/11>12, WDBK:0>30(1st hit), BKB:35>10(1st hit), LandingLag:17>11, Added AllowInterrupt at frame 38.
Bair - DMG:13>14/12>13.
Uair - FrameSpeed:x1.4 after collisions.
Dair - DMG:5>11/4>10, Angle:361>270, FrameSpeed:x2 at collision start, LandingLag:41>17, Removed all momentum changes, Removed landing hitbox.

Standing Grab - GrabboxDuration:16-29>16-60, FrameSpeed:x1.5 after Grabbox.
Dash Grab - GrabboxDuration:16-29>16-60.
Pivot Grab - GrabboxDuration:16-29>16-60, FrameSpeed:x2 after Grabbox.

Pummel - FrameSpeed:x2 after collisions.

Fthrow - DMG:7>8/2>4.
Bthrow - DMG:4>7/2>4, Angle:45>0, KBG:60>40, FrameSpeed:x1.5 after collisions.
Uthrow - FrameSpeed:x2 after collisions, If Jump is pressed, cancels Uthrow animation into a jump.
Dthrow - Hitlag:x0>x2, FrameSpeed:x0.3 before collision, "Be Still."

Nspecial - FrameSpeed:x1.5 startup, FrameSpeed:x1.3 HighShot.
Sspecial - Increased Size of Initial Hitbox, If B is pressed during final hit, hitbox pulls them toward you.
Uspecial - FrameSpeed:x1.6 before and after Whip collisions, Increased Size of Ground Initial Hitbox, Increased Size of WhipHitboxes, 

AirVerticalMomentum:0.5>0.75.
Dspecial - KickWindow:19->13-, Can use multiple times in the air only if Kick is performed.
**Kick - DMG:12>13/9>10, StrongHitWindow:9-11>9-14, Added AllowInterrupt frame 50.
**Flip - Added Looping Hitbox to the animation.
**Landing - If Jump is pressed, goes into the footstool/flip animation.
**KickLanding - If Jump is pressed, goes into the footstool/flip animation, FrameSpeed:x1.2.

Attributes - RunInitialVelocity:1.93>2.5, HopVInitialVelocity:1.988>1.4, AirMobility:0.09>0.11, MaxHAirVelocity:1.034>1.184, FastFallTerminalVelocity:2.002>2.302.

ParalyzerArticles: StrongShotVelocity:1.5>3, WeakShotDuration:24>60, StrongShotDuration:45>60.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Grab still 16? LOL

that aint brawl-

 

[Xyless]

I probably should have mentioned, we've more or less finished ZSS. Because of her extremely strict filesize limit, we couldn't add many new things. But she is still a major improvement. If I can get my replay from Blind's Wii, I can show off a 0-death all over PS1 against ROB. Until then, enjoy her vs Snake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgvekjjydxE

 

[wWw Dazwa]

I can show off a 0-death all over PS1 against ROB.

We can show you that in vBrawl too

 

[Xyless]

We can show you that in vBrawl too

Touché.

 

[Adapt]

Here's another game with ZSS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SE2m4QelpWk

Is her grab still 16 frames long? It seems a bit faster but I'm not sure

 

[Xyless]

The grab itself isn't faster, I think. It's mostly that the whole time the grab is out, the tip of the whip (where the grabbox is) keeps its grabbox, so she isn't completely helpless when grabbing.

And freaking DK. For some reason, he rips ZSS apart. I got destroyed in a tourney against him.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Grab lasts for about a second.

 

[Adapt]

I really think the grab should come out faster... it looks like we're still going to be lacking any sort of an OOS game in Brawl-

 

[Ambu(ECNAL)]

indeed, the sturcture/possiblitys of zzs are limited by the way you look at her, at the same time she can have endless possiblitys.

 

[Adapt]

They released brawl- finally... it's pretty fun

ZSS flies all over the screen and combos like she was meant to. You can chain nairs, fairs, uairs and even dairs rather nicely. For whatever reason I can't get bair to chain into anything, although at low percents it looks like it should.
If you hold B when you do a side-B it flings the foe towards you, and sets up for a guaranteed utilt at least, which itself chains into uair x4-5. I got an 87% combo in training mode while fooling around for 10 mins.
Crouch canceling is awesome, with her increased speed you can be on one side of FD one second, and be on the other side of FD doing a sliding down-smash the next.

I hear a number of people complain that the AI's are really hard, but I don't find them too bad as long as I know how my character works. (I'm pretty screwed using fox though lol)

 

[Xyless]

Another little ditty that isn't easy to catch: press B when you press the 3rd jab and she'll shoot a weak paralyzer shot.

Glad you're liking it!

Also, if you get any really good ZSS combos, send the replay file to me for the video I'm making.