ZSS General Discussion

[DeLux]

Can I be honest? I kind of disagree with the notion that whiffing a grab is always a bad thing, especially if it's given proper context.

I've noticed this watching and playing with MJG a whole bunch and noting how he works off of his grab with TL.

If I setup a situation where my opponent knows I'm going to go for a grab early in their stock and early in my stock, I'm going to throw out a grab if it's guaranteed. And I'm going to do it every time that situation occurs

At which point, they know that spot dodge is the counter to grab, so as soon as I see them cause me to whiff a grab, I figure their successful punish reenforces the notion "Hey, I can punish them for grabbing by spot dodging in that situation".

I'm ok with that because generally grab is a fairly light punish option, but if they are going to commit to spot dodge, I can abuse that and punish spot dodge with a heavier option. So generally instead of grabbing, I'll instead throw out a plasma whip or charge a dsmash and call it a stock.

It's awesome if you can get that spot dodge read without that positive conditioning, but especially with characters that have trouble killing sometimes giving them a positive punish will help net that end game situation in a trade for a moderate punish in my midgame.

 

[infiniteV115]

Grabbing with ZSS is hilarious.
Sometimes I just run at my opponent from the other side of the stage, keep going til I pass them and pivot grab. Cause they shield, expecting a dash attack or something.
Sometimes when my opponent runs toward me, I just grab them. They always run into shield.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Can I be honest? I kind of disagree with the notion that whiffing a grab is always a bad thing, especially if it's given proper context.

I've noticed this watching and playing with MJG a whole bunch and noting how he works off of his grab with TL.

If I setup a situation where my opponent knows I'm going to go for a grab early in their stock and early in my stock, I'm going to throw out a grab if it's guaranteed. And I'm going to do it every time that situation occurs

At which point, they know that spot dodge is the counter to grab, so as soon as I see them cause me to whiff a grab, I figure their successful punish reenforces the notion "Hey, I can punish them for grabbing by spot dodging in that situation".

I'm ok with that because generally grab is a fairly light punish option, but if they are going to commit to spot dodge, I can abuse that and punish spot dodge with a heavier option. So generally instead of grabbing, I'll instead throw out a plasma whip or charge a dsmash and call it a stock.

It's awesome if you can get that spot dodge read without that positive conditioning, but especially with characters that have trouble killing sometimes giving them a positive punish will help net that end game situation in a trade for a moderate punish in my midgame.

This is a notion I don't hear a lot about in smash, or any competitive game for that matter. Conditioning via following through on a risk, even if costs you damage. To say that the 30% you take then is more important than the guaranteed kill you'll get later is pretty gutsy.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

you'll stop saying you like missing grabs once you get fsmashed by snake

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I actually pivot grab alot.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Experimenting with GR > fair on MK, I can do it semi consistently now and it feels amazing.

Combos into second hit up til 60% with no DI. Afterwards you get the Uair/Fair mixup mindgame, where DIing up would avoid Fair but make Uair kill earlier, and DIing sideways would make Uair kill later but get Fair'd.

 

[infiniteV115]

We get fair? Really?
Damn. That's awesome.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Its harder than uair though, it's a *****, you HAVE to short hop and buffer and space perfectly. You basically hit with the lower part of her ankle/foot.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ah.
Well **** that, air release --> dash attack --> utilt does like 18, no?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It ain't always guarenteed though. If you grab a MK at low percents for example, Fthrow is ****, Bthrow is okay, Dthrow is okay. Grab release > DA is punished, Grab release > Uair is punished and Grab release Usmash is bad. On kill percents it can kill people who avoid Uair with DI.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well yeah, I don't use DA->utilt when it isn't guaranteed.
But that's only up to like, what, 15% on MK? After that (or around 15) it works AFAIK.

Air release-->DAL da bess

 

[DRN]

DRN, cuz you're reading this
I underestimated you. Good **** at Apex.

Didnt see this till now. Thanks though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

We can be friends now yay

 

[LoliLovesRain]

We can be friends now yay

Nope you don't need anymore friends~ you have me <3

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Do you guys remember that platform lock I talked about?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Sq_PuPc1M

 

[infiniteV115]

That is awesome, but extremely situational
Does the 1st hit of fair force a getup? Cause I know you can force getups on ROB after the dsmash-->footstool-->dair...

 

[PEACE7]

Wow that is some sexy **** right there, any ideas on how to make the combo longer?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

old writeup

Spoiler

Brosuke
So I was thinking, on Smashville we can platform cancel on the moving platform, right?
So what if we did a dsmash, footstool, platform cancel, dropthrough neutralb/fair1, then locked the target to the other side of the stage, dsmash again, platform cancel again and repeat etc etc til the lock moves are too high in knockback

This would work because while the platform might not be fast enough/too fast, it also turns around, so if you get the timing down just right you can probably dsmash his getup and still get it off, you will probably have to be really fast though and also have the luck of dsmashing the first time while the platform is coming.

Also, we could use this on wario out of a grab release > footstool to rack damage before we can pummel him, making the grab a 0-death instead of a infinite to stall? It would need perfect platform timing though, lol.

So

Dsmash
Footstool > platform cancel
Dropthrough > nB/Fair1
Lock
repeat

An example of the lock is found here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hbf9Zcx4ME

edit
On RC/Lylat, we can maybe like dsmash footstool platform cancel > dropthrough neutral b, turn around and repeat. 0-deaths possibly?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

old writeup

Spoiler

Brosuke
So I was thinking, on Smashville we can platform cancel on the moving platform, right?
So what if we did a dsmash, footstool, platform cancel, dropthrough neutralb/fair1, then locked the target to the other side of the stage, dsmash again, platform cancel again and repeat etc etc til the lock moves are too high in knockback

This would work because while the platform might not be fast enough/too fast, it also turns around, so if you get the timing down just right you can probably dsmash his getup and still get it off, you will probably have to be really fast though and also have the luck of dsmashing the first time while the platform is coming.

Also, we could use this on wario out of a grab release > footstool to rack damage before we can pummel him, making the grab a 0-death instead of a infinite to stall? It would need perfect platform timing though, lol.

So

Dsmash
Footstool > platform cancel
Dropthrough > nB/Fair1
Lock
repeat

An example of the lock is found here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hbf9Zcx4ME

edit
On RC/Lylat, we can maybe like dsmash footstool platform cancel > dropthrough neutral b, turn around and repeat. 0-deaths possibly?

Brosuke's got this on LOCKdown. :-D

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

 

[Dr. Tuen]

This is why we are friends.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

<3 you brooo :3

 

[fkacyan]

Do you guys remember that platform lock I talked about?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7Sq_PuPc1M

Wasn't I the one who proposed looking into this?

Spoiler

I actually have replays of myself doing it but no capture card, Goddamn Japanese beat me to it

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Can someone record the Diddy infinite + hands? I wanna know when exactly to change direction, if I need to hold down while footstooling et cetera.

edit: nvm i got it down already

 

[PEACE7]

I don't still

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Xonar's big post of lab research results and general info

As title.

• Ledge tricks:
• You can drop off the edge of BF/SV and do a double jump reversed upB, going through the stage. You must make sure that your momentum on the second jump means you're going straight up. You should aim to hit the part JUST before the diagonal ledge begins. That way, after upB, you can downB back to the ledge.
• On Final Destination this is safer, because you can walljump back to the ledge.
• Obviously also works on Lylat Cruise and the likes.
• I've been using the ledgedrop > jump > nB, but it leaves you to vulnerable. Thus, I invented something safer. ledgedrop > downB away from ledge > jump forward > nB. This way you get covered by the projectile and grab the ledge. You can mix it up with whatever.
• A great edge-guard is to glide toss upwards > dash away > pivot nB or glide toss upwards > foxtrot away > reverse dsmash

• Neutral B
• There is the ledge trick I use now, but nB actually has a lot of uses. One of them is pivot nB ©Salem. The thing is, people usually have a lot of problems with nB. So here's a hint to help you with pivot nB
• To learn pivot nB; first make sure you can just run and neutralB. It's that simple, and it's a great warm up. Try different distances, get a feel for it. After you feel accustomed to running nB, try to wavebounce it by immediately pressing the opposite direction AFTER using nB.
• To consistently use nB in matches, try to apply it when playing CPUs. Try to make techs with it, like my edgeguard glide toss. Being able to use this tool in many situations is a great help to your game.
• You can short hop buffer nB and still get the Uair hitbox out when landing.

• Grab releasing MetaKnight
• We have a couple of great tools against MK upon grab release. There is dash regrab, uair, fair, dash attack, usmash, to name a few. Out of these, only the first four are relevant.
• Dash Regrab is amazing on stages like Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza and Final Destination. This tool can kill on walkoff, unstale everything, rack small damage and reposition your opponent [effectively taking away ALL their stage control from a single grab]. More on regrab later.
• Uair is amazing for combos after about 30-40%, where you can't get countered for it on hit, and the position is just really comfortable. Make sure to never use run-off Uair, it puts you in a ****ty follow-up position, just learn dash Uair.
• Dash Attack is good because it combos into things. Utilt, Dtilt, Dash attack even sometimes a Dsmash. Use this from 10% onwards.
• Fair combos into two hits from 15-60% no DI. On 90%+, if your opponent expects an Uair, he will DI sideways to survive, if you instead Fair, you get a killing throw stronger than even Ness' throw.
• Grabbing a MK on the Smashville platform is extremely good, because it infinites from 50% or so onwards (assuming perfect mashing). Credits to Nef for discovering this. You basically standing regrab til he's at the other side, then you Dsmashx2, and dash pivot grab pummel. You NEED to pivot grab pummel, else you can NOT Dsmash him at the other side. Note that due to the platforms proximity to the blast zones, this stuff kills INSANELY early. Try Dsmash > PC > grab as a set up.

• The Diddy Kong Infinite
• I've practiced with it, and these are the tricks of the trade:
• First of all, you have to time the Dthrow after the footstool, if you input it too fast, the game will not recognize the command.
• Second, you don't move sideways before you z-catch the banana.
• Make sure you get the timing while z-catching, it will often result in an airdodge if done wrong.
• After Z-catching, immediately fastfall to the ground.
• Try doing the infinite on 100%, then 90%, then 80% etc etc. Having the infinite itself down is the most important, speed comes after.

• Miscellaneous
• Sometimes after downB footstooling your opponent, you get downB back. Just sometimes though, I haven't found consistency and I asked Delux to tet it out already.
• LEARN UPAIR OUT OF SHIELD
• LEARN PLATFORM DROP OUT OF SHIELD
• LEARN DOWNB PLATFORM CANCELS
• If Falco likes phantasming back on the stage, grab release over the edge > nB.
  
• Backthrow > foxtrot > dsmash. Use it.

 

[infiniteV115]

I learned pivot nB from Dakpo :D
Air release > dash attack > utilt da bess, does the most guaranteed damage. Of course if you're sure you can get the dsmash then by all means.
Wow at the MK infinite, though it's kinda situational. But still, wow.

On 90%+, if your opponent expects an Uair, he will DI sideways to survive, if you instead Fair, you get a killing throw stronger than even Ness' throw.

I think you meant fthrow

If Falco likes phantasming back on the stage, grab release over the edge > nB.

Might want to mention that you should follow up the nB with a footstool > edgehog.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No, grab release > fair.

the footstool is unnecessary haha

editted in a few things

 

[infiniteV115]

I've always been curious, can we footstool Wario out of air release?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

yes we can, but it's not that useful

 

[infiniteV115]

What about downB footstool?
And can we footstool > dair = forced get-up?

Cause I hear the regrab infinite is really hard and can't be buffered -.-

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

DownB footstool still isn't useful, but I dunno.

The forced get up would probably only be possible at extremely low percents (0-10% probably).

The regrab infinite is hard but just learn to mash the A button. practice by playing Mario Party 4's minigame called Domination ;D

 

[infiniteV115]

Mash the A-button?
I'm good at mashing (and I actually don't use the B-button, so I could set that to attack and then double-finger mash) but why mash the A-button? :S

And I was thinking down B horizontal footstool> b-reversed fully charged neutral B > some other stuff, maybe forced get-up?

I like forced get-ups :D

I'll fool around and test later.

Ftr, I can beat computers on expert (or whatever the highest difficulty is called) at Pokey Pummel in MP7 by like a full second. I'm good at mashing

 

[Dakpo]

As title.

• Ledge tricks:
• You can drop off the edge of BF/SV and do a double jump reversed upB, going through the stage. You must make sure that your momentum on the second jump means you're going straight up. You should aim to hit the part JUST before the diagonal ledge begins. That way, after upB, you can downB back to the ledge.

Ill try this out. Sounds interesting

• I've been using the ledgedrop > jump > nB, but it leaves you to vulnerable. Thus, I invented something safer. ledgedrop > downB away from ledge > jump forward > nB. This way you get covered by the projectile and grab the ledge. You can mix it up with whatever.

[/QUOTE]

this sounds incredibly easy to gimp. I have been playing around with this tactic for quite some time now and I have become able to do it without being punished for the most part. you can jump surprising far back and nB and grab the ledge without using downB. You can do it far enough to escape a marth's Fsmash.

• A great edge-guard is to glide toss upwards > dash away > pivot nB or glide toss upwards > foxtrot away > reverse dsmash

[/LIST][/QUOTE]
[/LIST][/QUOTE]
I like this.

• • Neutral B
  • There is the ledge trick I use now, but nB actually has a lot of uses. One of them is pivot nB ©Salem.
    The thing is, people usually have a lot of problems with nB. So here's a hint to help you with pivot nB
  [/QUOTE]
  This is such an amazing thing, I always love doing it

[/QUOTE]

• • Grab releasing MetaKnight
  • We have a couple of great tools against MK upon grab release. There is dash regrab, uair, fair, dash attack, usmash, to name a few. Out of these, only the first four are relevant.
  • Dash Regrab is amazing on stages like Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza and Final Destination. This tool can kill on walkoff, unstale everything, rack small damage and reposition your opponent [effectively taking away ALL their stage control from a single grab]. More on regrab later.
  • Uair is amazing for combos after about 30-40%, where you can't get countered for it on hit, and the position is just really comfortable. Make sure to never use run-off Uair, it puts you in a ****ty follow-up position, just learn dash Uair.
  • Dash Attack is good because it combos into things. Utilt, Dtilt, Dash attack even sometimes a Dsmash. Use this from 10% onwards.
  • Fair combos into two hits from 15-60% no DI. On 90%+, if your opponent expects an Uair, he will DI sideways to survive, if you instead Fair, you get a killing throw stronger than even Ness' throw.
  • Grabbing a MK on the Smashville platform is extremely good, because it infinites from 50% or so onwards (assuming perfect mashing). Credits to Nef for discovering this. You basically standing regrab til he's at the other side, then you Dsmashx2, and dash pivot grab pummel. You NEED to pivot grab pummel, else you can NOT Dsmash him at the other side. Note that due to the platforms proximity to the blast zones, this stuff kills INSANELY early. Try Dsmash > PC > grab as a set up.
  [/QUOTE]
  • The Diddy Kong Infinite
  • I've practiced with it, and these are the tricks of the trade:
  • First of all, you have to time the Dthrow after the footstool, if you input it too fast, the game will not recognize the command.
  • Second, you don't move sideways before you z-catch the banana.
  • Make sure you get the timing while z-catching, it will often result in an airdodge if done wrong.
  • After Z-catching, immediately fastfall to the ground.
  • Try doing the infinite on 100%, then 90%, then 80% etc etc. Having the infinite itself down is the most important, speed comes after.

[/QUOTE]
ill have to try this sometime :mistyface:

• • Miscellaneous
  • Sometimes after downB footstooling your opponent, you get downB back. Just sometimes though, I haven't found consistency and I asked Delux to tet it out already.
  [/QUOTE]
  i have never had this happen to me
  • LEARN UPAIR OUT OF SHIELD
  [/QUOTE]
  this changes match-ups. im not even kidding. It will make her go up on the tier list.
  
  
• If Falco likes phantasming back on thestage, grab release over the edge > nB.

[/QUOTE]
Footstool is safer since they cant DI it.

Really good stuff. I think im going to post a video of all of my findings over the years

 

[infiniteV115]

Gosh Dakpo, lrn2quote XD

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

this sounds incredibly easy to gimp. I have been playing around with this tactic for quite some time now and I have become able to do it without being punished for the most part. you can jump surprising far back and nB and grab the ledge without using downB. You can do it far enough to escape a marth's Fsmash.

Interesting.

i have never had this happen to me

Should've seen my face when this suddenly happened to me in a match.

Oh, added the best bthrow followup ever. Bthrow is our best throw imo.

 

[Dakpo]

i cringe when i see our up throw...it literally looks like we are getting hit

 

[PEACE7]

You can drop off the edge of BF/SV and do a double jump reversed upB, going through the stage. You must make sure that your momentum on the second jump means you're going straight up. You should aim to hit the part JUST before the diagonal ledge begins. That way, after upB, you can downB back to the ledge.

I had no idea you could do it on SV, i thought you could only do it on FD ima try it out. Great list man, you should make a video showing all this stuff.

Also Dakpo you should do the same lol

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I retested that random downB return, and it really seems random as ****. It happens sometimes twice in a row, sometimes once in like 5 minutes.

Also, I can't record anything haha xD

 

[PEACE7]

**** that sucks well if you want to save replays of you doing this stuff and ill record, maybe make a new thread showing all of this tricks and stuff