ZSS General Discussion

[Zero]

I kinda want to pick up Sheik too. I'll join you on this quest and see how it goes xD
Sheik is just...so fun!! <3

IKR? She just feels so graceful and elegant. It feels really fun to play. and a lot of basics carry over from playing ZSS. AND SHE HAS A GRAB OMGGGGG

 

[solecalibur]

So does 90% of the cast lol , I dont like playing sheik just because of her recovery imo

 

[#HBC | J]

I like using her recovery as an attack ;o

Sheik has some good gimping and is a DPS machine. However I switch to Zelda to kill but that's just me =P

 

[Zero]

lol I was playing in training mode lots yesterday, trying out various shiz. I kept nairing off stage and trying to tether back. I overestimate her tether range because of playing ZSS for so long, grrrrr.

 

[Nefarious B]

check my post in the MK discussion of the BR, I need some input plox

 

[Rybaia]

check my post in the MK discussion of the BR, I need some input plox

Sorry bu what are you talking about?
Where's this post?

 

[#HBC | J]

The ZSS backroom, im assuming.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Too bad sheik is godawful

 

[#HBC | J]

I don't think sheik is godawful ;_;

God awful is like Link and Ganon to me. Sheik is pretty decent. Better than some. Eh just my opinion. =P

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link is much better than Ganon and possibly better than Sheik as well. Sheik is so many different kinds of bad I can't even explain it.

 

[Nefarious B]

SFP you're so bipolar with your opinions lol

 

[#HBC | J]

I cannot possibly see that @_@.

However you think Lucas is possibly one of the worst and I can't see that either.

Lol SFP we have very different eyes on things it seems =P

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I have different opinions but they are often right, people just don't want to admit it because no one likes it when their perceptions don't match reality.

When you look at the way the game has shaped and evolved over the past two years there are plenty of inconsistencies when you cross-reference player perceptions with actual placings. There are good ZSS, Ness and Ike players getting top 10 at nationals. When was the last time an Olimar got top 10 at a national? What about a ****ing Dedede?

Similarly, why is Link, who has several god-like players doing amazing things (for a supposed bottom tier) still in the same tier as GANON?

Yes, some players are better than others and some players are leaps and bounds above other players but a character is a vessel, and if a character couldn't get top 10 at a national, then a player would not be getting top 10 at a national with the character regardless of how talented they are. You don't see any other character in LOW TIER placing that well, or many characters in mid tier. Bowser? Sheik? Wolf? Where's the beef?

My point is that we are giving a lot of credit to characters who aren't doing **** because we have poor (wrong) ideas about what makes a character good or bad. What makes a character good: camp games, options, mobility, kill power, aerials, and the ability to change actions on the fly. Not: approaches, recovery, move strings, chain grabs on bad characters, or any of that.

Characters like Sonic, Ike, and Ness HAVE these things. Characters like Sheik and Lucas are one-dimensional and designed to do one predictable thing. You could definitely argue that Ike is similar, but at least Ike kills you at 60%. B tier doesn't seem to be very B tier to me these days.

 

[#HBC | J]

somehow I semi-knew I would get a wallish type thingy.

Good on ya SFP for defending your side of thought ;O I'll reply later but im working on something for the doubles thread and it's almost 4 in the morning where I should be asleep ^^"

Sorry x-x

 

[solecalibur]

Sheik is higher on the list because of her ftilt and her ability to shut out characters like fox

When you look at the way the game has shaped and evolved over the past two years there are plenty of inconsistencies when you cross-reference player perceptions with actual placings. There are good ZSS, Ness and Ike players getting top 10 at nationals. When was the last time an Olimar got top 10 at a national? What about a ****ing Dedede?

Similarly, why is Link, who has several god-like players doing amazing things (for a supposed bottom tier) still in the same tier as GANON?

At pound 4 I think it was Da buz that got 9th after the slew of metaknights taking top 8
And D3 by atomsk

and to answer the link question in two words : Fan boy

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Sheik has options and would be good if we weren't limited and human.

 

[#HBC | J]

I have different opinions but they are often right, people just don't want to admit it because no one likes it when their perceptions don't match reality.

I give credit where credit is due =P. I still won't "admit" Lucas is a horrid character because i know that's not true. ^_^

When you look at the way the game has shaped and evolved over the past two years there are plenty of inconsistencies when you cross-reference player perceptions with actual placings. There are good ZSS, Ness and Ike players getting top 10 at nationals. When was the last time an Olimar got top 10 at a national? What about a ****ing Dedede?

actually you have a point here. Idk really however im not really keeping track on Olimar or Dedede but now im curious to go look and see ;o

Similarly, why is Link, who has several god-like players doing amazing things (for a supposed bottom tier) still in the same tier as GANON?

Well if you look at the tournament rankings list Link has the 3rd worst next to Bowser and Jiggz. Ganon is actually above him here which is surprising to me. I know of Scabe but i can't recall any other Links in my memory that do well. Sorry ;(

Yes, some players are better than others and some players are leaps and bounds above other players but a character is a vessel, and if a character couldn't get top 10 at a national, then a player would not be getting top 10 at a national with the character regardless of how talented they are. You don't see any other character in LOW TIER placing that well, or many characters in mid tier. Bowser? Sheik? Wolf? Where's the beef?

Eh, characters are not all about tournament rankings =/ but i guess tournament rankings are proof on the character like you say.

My point is that we are giving a lot of credit to characters who aren't doing **** because we have poor (wrong) ideas about what makes a character good or bad. What makes a character good: camp games, options, mobility, kill power, aerials, and the ability to change actions on the fly. Not: approaches, recovery, move strings, chain grabs on bad characters, or any of that.

hmmmmm.

Characters like Sonic, Ike, and Ness HAVE these things. Characters like Sheik and Lucas are one-dimensional and designed to do one predictable thing. You could definitely argue that Ike is similar, but at least Ike kills you at 60%. B tier doesn't seem to be very B tier to me these days.

B tier could be worked on maybe. Ike is definetely better than Low tier but i think atm he deserves to be switched with Bowser.

Well i replied like i said I would.

Also I have a question. How would I go about playing the Ike MU?

 

[fkacyan]

I have different opinions but they are often right, people just don't want to admit it because no one likes it when their perceptions don't match reality.

I could change the QUOTE="Supermodel from Paris" part to Thiocyanide instead and IT WOULD BE EXACTLY THE SAME THING EXCEPT ABOUT DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.

I love irony.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I could change the QUOTE="Supermodel from Paris" part to Thiocyanide instead and IT WOULD BE EXACTLY THE SAME THING EXCEPT ABOUT DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.

I love irony.

I'm not sure what the irony is, I agree with you a lot, I just don't post about it. Who posts just to say "I agree?"

 

[ph00tbag]

lol @ sheik not being campy.

You might have a point about Lucas, since he actually is a rushdown character. But sheik is not supposed to approach at all. Unless there was some drastic change between Melee and Brawl Sheik that I'm not aware of.

Wolf is genuinely terrible, though. That much I'll agree on.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol @ sheik not being campy.

You might have a point about Lucas, since he actually is a rushdown character. But sheik is not supposed to approach at all. Unless there was some drastic change between Melee and Brawl Sheik that I'm not aware of.

Wolf is genuinely terrible, though. That much I'll agree on.

Sheik's needles are too linear and slow to come out to camp with effectively. She can't exactly rapid fire; they might make approaching a little annoying, but you will reach her eventually without doing much else but running at her.

She camps, but that doesn't make her camp game good. >_>

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Her needles cant be PS'd

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Her needles cant be PS'd

This implies taht she's charged them, which implies that you had time to approach anyway.

Even if Sheik is charging the needles in short bursts occasionally that is still an abusable window.

 

[Nefarious B]

I'd think the fact that she can only throw them diagonally down when in the air would make it much much easier to approach with SHs than against say Falco, for example. She can do weird stuff because of that angle, but it's kinda like falco vs wolf side b, the horizontal angle is just more convenient and harder to avoid.

But I have no sheik xp so that may be totally off

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

her airneedles help her with her somewhat sucky diar

 

[Ryos4]

Hello ZSS players. I would like to invite you to discuss team doubles with Link. Here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274758

Anyway she seems like a decent character for Link to team up with for Links sake. We would greatly appreciate any input.

So thx in advance.

 

[ph00tbag]

Sheik's needles are too linear and slow to come out to camp with effectively. She can't exactly rapid fire; they might make approaching a little annoying, but you will reach her eventually without doing much else but running at her.

She camps, but that doesn't make her camp game good. >_>

Yes, you'll approach. But you'll be the one approaching. And that's all she really wants anyway.

 

[PepsiMista]

Is there any safe way that we can ´avoid´ an approaching tornado?

Other than, like ledge grabbing.

 

[Zero]

Shield + Up.

Run away + pivot grab.

 

[solecalibur]

Crawling surprisingly , i've down b'd flip stooled once but I cant do it consistently lol

 

[Nefarious B]

Yeah crawling is something I really want to implement against nado but I can never think fast enough to do it in practice (so far). MK's usually don't want to go super high with nado so if you jump they will generally just land, but that's a win for them since they are now below you. Shield it then dodge at the end if they stay on you all the way.

 

[solecalibur]

If you do get away with crawling once or twice (or even the first time you do it) I dont see why just shielding without aiming it up since they are really aiming low at you

edit --

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=281925

gratz charby on your placing =D

 

[PepsiMista]

I have tried Shield + Up but the MK user just retreats and comes back (in some cases) and that eats up the shield faster.

and I cant risk pivot grabbing because it will most likely end in me Getting punished.


Oh God I hate MK sooo much.

 

[Zero]

If MK is retreating and re-advancing and you're getting caught by that then that's your reaction time at fault.

 

[Nefarious B]

You can always roll or drop shield run away from that

 

[PepsiMista]

Its more complicated than that, but Its OK.. Ill just have to learn how to deal with it.

also, kaleidoRuby, its not a matter of Reaction time... its a matter of options.

 

[Zero]

If you're too slow to escape the tornado if he hits your shield and then retreats by dashing back, jumping or a grab, then it is your reaction time at fault. You have plenty of options in that situation.

 

[NickRiddle]

Its more complicated than that, but Its OK.. Ill just have to learn how to deal with it.

also, kaleidoRuby, its not a matter of Reaction time... its a matter of options.

Options to run away from nado?
Run.
Pivot grab.
Down-b if they are going low.
Grab the ledge.
Hope that your aerial or side-b randomly break it.
Dair it from the top, and laugh if anybody gets hit by it.

 

[Albert.]

Oh Samus,

I know you want this girl I see it in your eyes
Don't be ashamed of what you got between those thighs
You know I'm gon' try not to be so excited
But I can't help it feels so good to be invited
So baby get ready cus here I go oooOoo0ooo0ooooh

 

[Zero]

**** not you again