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ZSS General Discussion

ThreeSided

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I'm going to pose a question, and I ask that you guys not laugh, but rather think critically and seriously to answer. Also, I love being provocative and making people defend their status quo, so take this question for what it is:

Could ZSS be S tier?

I think she could be, and is at the very least at the top of A-tier. I spoke about this with a few people on the IRC last night. The issue as I see it is that while ZSS has a few problematic matches, she doesn't have any that are unwinnable. She also does very well against the high and top tier characters despite some of her weaknesses. ZSS also breaks one or two characters pretty bad (she destroys ROB, is very strong against ICs, and GAW doesn't do so well against her either). In short, ZSS is just south of being broken from a matchups standpoint.

From my perspective, you need to be successful against three characters to be tourney viable: Dedede, Meta Knight and Snake. Snake and Dedede are widely considered to be in our favor, if at least by slight margins. Meta Knight isn't that bad; it's winnable, but we are disadvantaged. Because of this, we are at least more tourney viable than most of A tier, most notably Marth.

Our "bad" matchups are typically overblown. Falco, Luigi, and Sheik are undoubtedly the worst, but how bad are they really? Is Falco really a hard counter? The answer is that he isn't; The Link and Falco boards agreed that he goes 30:70 with Link, a character he can chaingrab to the edge and spike before 50% with no repercussions or risks and without even performing the technique perfectly. Compared to Link, ZSS stands a much better chance. The matchup is at worst, 35:65 or perhaps even a little better, but I often get the impression that we lose perspective when talking about Falco sometimes. He is annoying, but he is not a "hard counter."

Luigi is another one that probably isn't as bad as we used to think; just three-four months ago, ZSS' best moves were thought to be side-b and bair. We've opened up a world of new options, and many are saying Luigi is even.

Sheik is probably our worst matchup, in my opinion, and Sheik is rare. The shield pressure he is capable of can be devastating for ZSS because her OOS options are sparse and situational at best. With that said, many ZSS and Sheik mains agree that the match is even. So perhaps I'm wrong.

Other close matches, like Diddy Kong and Pit, are roughly even, and you don't need a secondary for these. Sheik, Pit, and Luigi are pretty rare at tournaments.

It is my believe that ZSS is one of few characters that could potentially win a tournament alone and without a secondary. She is, in my opinion, a better character at the top end than ROB, Kirby, Ice Climbers, and even Game and Watch or King Dedede; her matchup spread is better both from a metagame standpoint, and from an overall standpoint than most of the above characters and maybe even a few I'm forgetting.

So I'm going to put it out there: I think ZSS is a potential candidate for top tier. I didn't used to think so, so this is not blind fanboyism; this is me looking at our matchups and character, understanding her strengths and weaknesses, and drawing a conclusion I feel any objective person should.
You make some very good points. And I think you're right as far as her potential goes. The issue is that when considering the tier list, tourney results are looked at. And because of Zamus' gargantuan learning curve, those results are historically bad, and not likely to change for a while.

Honestly, I'm scared that if we do rise that high, it will be because ZSS mains will start jumping out of no where knowing nothing but side-b spam and Dazlock, which let's face it, if you get good enough at it. it's just a matter of remembering the % to start and landing a DA or tazer shot. =\

Heading to the tourney soon... I need to eat first. What's a good tourney-prep breakfast? =)
 

Hence

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1. Sheik is not our worst matchup. MK is much worse than Sheik, but he again is not our worst matchup.

2. As someone who doesn't go to tournaments or brawl regularly offline with more than one person, I'm not sure you're qualified to speak for the ZSS boards about tier placement. Calm down and begin understanding the basics of the game. You're playing brawl carelessly, from what I've seen. You've even made a post about how ZSS sucks on Wi-Fi. The truth is, it's entirely dependent on the player. People like xxpatxxx, Snakeee, and Salem have all been top players on the All is Brawl ladder only using ZSS. If ZSS sucks so badly on Wi-Fi, how were they able to achieve this? Playstyle.

3. What's with the egos on this board lately? "With ZSS' gargantuan learning curve," or "I'll get the word out and overhype what has been known for months just because I'm new here, oh and I'll name it something really annoying."

4. Stop worrying about character specific techs for the time being, guys. People are placing well using ZSS without them. There's a reason you're not, habits, a weak understanding of the game with over 9000 locks of fanboyism, or inexperience in matchups. I'm sure when you truly understand the complexities of Brawl you'll understand that she doesn't belong in S tier.
 

ThreeSided

Smash Ace
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3. What's with the egos on this board lately? "With ZSS' gargantuan learning curve," or "I'll get the word out and overhype what has been known for months just because I'm new here, oh and I'll name it something really annoying."
I was exaggerating for effect. =[

As for the over-hype thing, is that directed at me and the threads I started before? If so, I could tell they were things that were likely to have been found. In fact I say that in the threads. I don't mind bringing it up though, because I feel if the chance exists that it hasn't been found or hasn't been explored thoroughly, I think it's worth bringing up. Even if I know that people will shut me down by yelling that it's already been found.

Sorry if I rubbed off wrong. =\

I really just want to help the meta game out. I don't have huge experience, and I know that. I've been trying to give what I can, and start discussion where I can, to further development and discussion, in hopes of finding something new.
 

Hence

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I was exaggerating for effect. =[

As for the over-hype thing, is that directed at me and the threads I started before? If so, I could tell they were things that were likely to have been found. In fact I say that in the threads. I don't mind bringing it up though, because I feel if the chance exists that it hasn't been found or hasn't been explored thoroughly, I think it's worth bringing up. Even if I know that people will shut me down by yelling that it's already been found.

Sorry if I rubbed off wrong. =\

I really just want to help the meta game out. I don't have huge experience, and I know that. I've been trying to give what I can, and start discussion where I can, to further development and discussion, in hopes of finding something new.
Sorry, it was mostly directed tword Sfp. :p
 

noradseven

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As someone who plays ZSS against the top players in our state, and does well against them, I can say she shouldn't be S tier, period end of story.

I think ZSS has some definite things going for her online like over B(far), and d-smash, become alot better than normal online, however her other moves like b-air, become far worse, my main problem with online is I can't PS stuff :(, and because of this I don't guard alot of stuff, because habit says PS, lag says get hit, but that is a problem every character has, personally I think Yoshi should do well online, because of this.
 
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Hence -- relax. I was mostly trying to get discussion going. Although I do think she's a better character in the current metagame than most of A tier. Also, you don't have to do much to qualify to observe a metagame, listen to pro players talk, and draw conclusions. It's not like I came out claiming to be an expert and declaring the SBR-B a bunch of loons. I asked what you guys think. (Also, your references to my playstyle based on our 3-4 wifi games is a little weird and uncalled for; I have been to a few offline tourneys now and I have done reasonably well for myself.)

She is inarguably more viable as a singular tourney character than most of A tier, however. She could conceivably win a tourney on her own, whereas there's no way Game and Watch, ROB, or Marth could ever do that.
 

Hence

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Overswarm wins/has won (and dominated) tournaments with ROB. NOJ won tournaments with Game and Watch and still does very well in tournament.Marth is overrated though, I think he'll drop to B Tier soon. There's a reason Snake was god tier in the beginning and there's a reason the tournament placings of the characters you've listed aren't as great. ZSS is a virtually unknown character in most tournament scenes. If she gets to a point where people are forced to learn the matchup, who's to say she won't fall from the throne? Nothing about ZSS makes her broken like MK or Snake, she has counters.
 
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Overswarm wins/has won (and dominated) tournaments with ROB. NOJ won tournaments with Game and Watch and still does very well in tournament.Marth is overrated though, I think he'll drop to B Tier soon. There's a reason Snake was god tier in the beginning and there's a reason the tournament placings of the characters you've listed don't place as high. ZSS is a virtually unknown character in most tournament scenes. If she gets to a point where people are forced to learn the matchup, who's to say she won't fall from the throne? Nothing about ZSS makes her broken like MK or Snake, she has counters.
I should have qualified that I was mostly referring to the current metagame and and also to large-scale tourneys.

Also, ZSS doesn't really have any hard counters. She has a few hard matchups, but none of them are debilitating or impossible. If you want a pro player to say that ZSS could do it alone and not me, I can arrange that, because I've personally spoken to at least one that agrees.

The problem is the frequency of those matches because of the popularity of those characters. Falco in particular is inordinately popular.

It was once pointed out to me, and I think this was a good point, that ZSS is a "pixie character" in MvC terms. A pixie character if you don't know is one that can't take a lot of damage but deals damage very very quickly if you let her. A single movestring with ZSS does as much as 45% damage and isn't escapable in some cases (dsmashx2 side-b is 41% damage). That's not "broken" but it's something not many characters can claim. ZSS also has the game's best aerial game rivaling Wario and MK, great midrange spacing tools, and even decent gimping capability.

Even without all of that, she wouldn't need to be "broken" in any particular sense to have a lot of really great, convenient matchups like Wario, which she does. ZSS has a pretty great matchup spread. That's undeniable.
 

Hence

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Also, ZSS doesn't really have any hard counters. She has a few hard matchups, but none of them are debilitating or impossible. If you want a pro player to say that ZSS could do it alone and not me, I can arrange that, because I've personally spoken to at least one that agrees.
ZSS could win a tournament alone, I'm not disagreeing with you.

It was once pointed out to me, and I think this was a good point, that ZSS is a "pixie character" in MvC terms. A pixie character if you don't know is one that can't take a lot of damage but deals damage very very quickly if you let her.
Zero Suit Samus is almost as light as MK, she isn't a tank character.
A single movestring with ZSS does as much as 45% damage and isn't escapable in some cases (dsmashx2 side-b is 41% damage). That's not "broken" but it's something not many characters can claim. ZSS also has the game's best aerial game rivaling Wario and MK, great midrange spacing tools, and even decent gimping capability.
D-Smash > D-Smash > Plasma Wire > U-Tilt is 48%.
Landing a D-Smash in the current metagame against the best players in large-scale tourneys is not likely going to happen. Having watched all of Snakeee's matches on Youtube, I haven't seen him land a D-Smash recently unless it was off stage.

lot of really great, convenient matchups like Wario
List them?
 
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Zero Suit Samus is almost as light as MK, she isn't a tank character.
Err, reread what I said. I agree with that. She can build damage really fast but can't take a lot of punishment. Her DI is really great, though, I've lived as high as 180% in some matches.

Landing a D-Smash in the current metagame against the best players in large-scale tourneys is not likely going to happen. Having watched all of Snakeee's matches on Youtube, I haven't seen him land a D-Smash unless it was off stage.
That's a fair point, but it is also a little crazy to say you'll never land one. The 40%+ damage you get as a reward is also no joke considering ZSS' speed and agility. Plus, uair strings hurt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd3ieIbmSQI

List them?
Advantages vs Snake (weak advantage) and King Dedede (strong), two "dealbreaker" characters; Snakeee told me on AIM last night he isn't convinced MK has much of an advantage over ZSS at all, btw.

We also happen to destroy ROB, ICs, and GaW. You said yourself Kirby is a good matchup for us, too. We don't have these advantages because ZSS has some godlike quality like MK or Snake, we have them because ZSS is a unique character with a lot of weird traits that happen to cause problems for these guys.

That doesn't make her advantages any less impressive or any less real.
 

Hence

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Oops.

Yes, Juggling is a great option against heavy characters. LOL @ Your blog though. Seriously Sfp, learn the basics of brawl before you say U-Air true combos and can kill at 66%. DIing, airdodging, fastfalling, jumping, and even using Falco's FF D-Air are means of escape.

Most of ZSS' advantages are trivial and can be beaten over time when they learn more about the matchup. For instance, most of my damage in any set revolves around mindgames from matchup experience. People learn over time and develop matchup experience. The exceptions to this (imo) are, as you said, G&W and Kirby. Keep in mind this is my opinion, but I believe IC's mains will learn the matchup and overcome their current disadvantages. I'll play Lain soon, he's in my region.
 
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Lol, that was Steeler who told you that, right sfp?
CRASHiC. :)

Hence -- seriously relax. There is absolutely no reason to call me out over something I wrote in a blog. The primary reason I took it offsite is because there was a chance I could be wrong occasionally, so wrong, that making a thread or post about it would be spam. If you want to make a comment on something I wrote, make it there.

The ZSS metagame is not stale, it is still very young because for the first year of her development, there really wasn't much experimentation. I say that with confidence that the best players will at least partially agree; ZSS' metagame is not nearly as advanced as other characters. I do what I do and write what I write because I'm not afraid to mess up or be wrong a lot and I sometimes do find helpful things, even when you disagree with them. Remember when you called me an idiot for my nair post and then complimented Snakeee for his frequent use of nair? Seriously.

I won't be replying again, after this. It seems that you are just looking for reasons to argue or get upset with me and I don't want this thread to get out of hand.
 

Nefarious B

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First of all, Hence you talk like you have a stick the size of Kobe Bryant's ***** up your ***. You make good points, but they're almost overshadowed by your condescending, and unwarranted tone.

Now, the problem I have with saying ZSS is S tier is that we have yet to show that she can place well in national tournies. It's also the problem I have with people claiming that Wario is in the same league as MK and Snake, because none of their "pros" have proven themselves on the national scene yet.

I believe she is top of A tier, because she has strengths far greater than her weaknesses as well as solid matchups all around. However, I believe there are characters in A tier that should move up before she does, namely Pikachu and maybe Climbers.

We've moved our metagame faster than any other character, and really what's left to do is for the actual players to step up, learn the **** we've discussed, and put it into practice to prove it's as useful as we say it is.
 

FadedImage

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not trying to kick up the flame war again, but here's some food for thought from a "ZSS Pro" (ask anyone in SoCal, I'm one of the best, if not the best)

Falco is unwinnable. If you have moderately equal skill and you don't get lucky, Falco will beat you. He's just too unapproachable when he laser/phantasm camps. If he plays stupid and approaches you, the match-up is waaay easier. But at high levels of play, that's not what you're gonna run into.

Snake, Wario, Marth, MK, etc. These are NOT in our advantage. They MAAAY be even, most likely they are 55:45 enemy advantage, if not MORE.

We do not wreck GaW, we just have a 60:40 advantage because we have the mobility and range to space his aerials, he can still kill us at 70-80% no problem.

Like I said in the other thread, she doesn't have enough decisive advantages to rise beyond the bottom of A or the top of B.
 

Hence

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I liked his D-Smash > N-Air mindgame, but I still don't think N-Air is very useful because we have better options.

Don't assume.


Guys, whenever you'd like to contribute to this thread it would be very much appreciated. I'll be adding A LOT of information after next Wednesday, it's one of my summer projects.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236594
 

noradseven

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not trying to kick up the flame war again, but here's some food for thought from a "ZSS Pro" (ask anyone in SoCal, I'm one of the best, if not the best)

Falco is unwinnable. If you have moderately equal skill and you don't get lucky, Falco will beat you. He's just too unapproachable when he laser/phantasm camps. If he plays stupid and approaches you, the match-up is waaay easier. But at high levels of play, that's not what you're gonna run into.

Snake, Wario, Marth, MK, etc. These are NOT in our advantage. They MAAAY be even, most likely they are 55:45 enemy advantage, if not MORE.

We do not wreck GaW, we just have a 60:40 advantage because we have the mobility and range to space his aerials, he can still kill us at 70-80% no problem.

Like I said in the other thread, she doesn't have enough decisive advantages to rise beyond the bottom of A or the top of B.
I can see this as far as warios and marth go I truely think they are even, snake while we beat him on paper I have always had a hard time implementing it in real life.

Falco, yeah I feel the same way about Lucario, and pit but to a lesser degree, its just like **** it Im better than you I know what your going to do, but ****. I have been having far less problems with his laser spam/phantasm as of late, because before at tournies everyone counter picked me by doing this, because they knew that it ganked me and it was easy. But their are other things he can do like his pivot chain grab up to like 70%-80% that just makes this match ********.

However I think the new back roll and dash combo makes the match slightly less unwinable, at least I have been doing better in casuals versus the best in our state I go about 5:5 with him, but its very very uphill.

Not much beats the doubles tourny I went to with team damage off, woo falco+olimar, jesus ****ing christ that is the most ******** **** I have seen I can't believe we won 1 round with ZSS and lucas.
 

GeniusNeji

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when brawl first came out and me and my friends were playing i realized Zero Suit Never dies lol bottom of FD and survives from tethering ^_^ but that just shows how bad my friends were also after continuely playing her i loved her combos.
 

noradseven

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when brawl first came out and me and my friends were playing i realized Zero Suit Never dies lol bottom of FD and survives from tethering ^_^ but that just shows how bad my friends were also after continuely playing her i loved her combos.
:airquote: combos :airquote:

Me and my friends were like woo time to break this game, god **** pikachu so good, wolf=gay, snake f-tilt O_o_O_o_O_o_O, I was like you know ZSS is good, I just have to get good with her whip, but I bet she isn't the best maybe A or B tier, unless she has some dumb combo.
 

mountain_tiger

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I have to say, the main reason I tried to pick up ZSS in the first place is her combos. My favourite one has to be DSmash > Down B. Guaranteed Meteor Smash FTW! :laugh: But it's not just DSMash combos I like. UTilt > Double Uair is quite fun too, and not to mention I love the range on ZSS' attacks. I just need to get a bit better with her....
 

swordgard

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Err, reread what I said. I agree with that. She can build damage really fast but can't take a lot of punishment. Her DI is really great, though, I've lived as high as 180% in some matches.

That's a fair point, but it is also a little crazy to say you'll never land one. The 40%+ damage you get as a reward is also no joke considering ZSS' speed and agility. Plus, uair strings hurt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd3ieIbmSQI


Advantages vs Snake (weak advantage) and King Dedede (strong), two "dealbreaker" characters; Snakeee told me on AIM last night he isn't convinced MK has much of an advantage over ZSS at all, btw.

We also happen to destroy ROB, ICs, and GaW. You said yourself Kirby is a good matchup for us, too. We don't have these advantages because ZSS has some godlike quality like MK or Snake, we have them because ZSS is a unique character with a lot of weird traits that happen to cause problems for these guys.

That doesn't make her advantages any less impressive or any less real.
You guys dont destroy ics. 6-4 for ics.

Stop taking personal experience vs ics as something that matters, there are only 2-3 ics that matter right now in usa anyways.
 

Adapt

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I haven't been here much lately, I just started a new job. but...


Holy **** the ZSS boards have gone nuts. Listen to Faded... his latest post was one of the few that made sense.

I have issues with his wording... falco is not "unwinnable" but he's a big pain. MK has a definite advantage on us. Snake, Lucario, Luigi, Wolf and Diddy all have an advantage as well.

MK, Snake, and Diddy and Lucario are all common characters and will keep ZSS out of S tier for sure.

I personally think Wario and Marth are even. We don't wreck ICs, DDD, or GaW. DDD is 55-45 in our favor likely. the other two are likely 6-4

You guys are getting way out of hand with outrageous claims, ZSS is High-B, Low-A. She cannot compete with Marth for tier placement. Accept the limitations of the characters and continue working on your buffering research (which I do think is promising)
 

swordgard

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I haven't been here much lately, I just started a new job. but...


Holy **** the ZSS boards have gone nuts. Listen to Faded... his latest post was one of the few that made sense.

I have issues with his wording... falco is not "unwinnable" but he's a big pain. MK has a definite advantage on us. Snake, Lucario, Luigi, Wolf and Diddy all have an advantage as well.

MK, Snake, and Diddy and Lucario are all common characters and will keep ZSS out of S tier for sure.

I personally think Wario and Marth are even. We don't wreck ICs, DDD, or GaW. DDD is 55-45 in our favor likely. the other two are likely 6-4

You guys are getting way out of hand with outrageous claims, ZSS is High-B, Low-A. She cannot compete with Marth for tier placement. Accept the limitations of the characters and continue working on your buffering research (which I do think is promising)

Agreed, way too much hype going on when people start doing this sorts of stuff.
 

noradseven

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I don't know about ICs, because I personally don't believe anyone has enough exp in that match.

Yeah I have been talking to sfp too much, normally I am very pessimistic, I am just p. excited because I think the new stuff closed a lot of matches from like 6:4s to 5.5:4.5s which is a p. big difference for me at least.

If you read I wasn't saying ZSS should go, up too much more(I actually surprised she got this high without the new stuff, so I wouldn't be surprised if she goes up a few more spots, like maybe bottom of A), but more that people like Marth need to go down if they want to be consistent on why wario went up, and stuff granted he is good, based upon the same reason why Wario is 3rd from the top, the tier list just seems to be a bit wobbly on what its supposed to represent. Pretty much what defines the best character.

I still disagree with diddy well I think its 4.5:5.5 his favor but if you can't handle a 4.5:5.5 don't expect to win a tourny with ZSS, or anyone but MK for that matter.

Also Pit a pretty bad match too don't forget that one, and I still think Olimar is in his favor, despite what snakeee says. I still think snake is even at best.

Im p. used to getting hyped about my bottom/ low tier character in other games though, because normally 1,2 not top tier characters that have a huge following that I often play as, and its always fun to see them win when all there matchups are 6:4 against them.

But thanks I think Im back to my normal same self.

EDIT: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=235490 this is probably the thing that made me the happiest as of late, though its p. intuitive so you may have already known it.
 
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I haven't been here much lately, I just started a new job. but...


Holy **** the ZSS boards have gone nuts. Listen to Faded... his latest post was one of the few that made sense.

I have issues with his wording... falco is not "unwinnable" but he's a big pain. MK has a definite advantage on us. Snake, Lucario, Luigi, Wolf and Diddy all have an advantage as well.

MK, Snake, and Diddy and Lucario are all common characters and will keep ZSS out of S tier for sure.

I personally think Wario and Marth are even. We don't wreck ICs, DDD, or GaW. DDD is 55-45 in our favor likely. the other two are likely 6-4

You guys are getting way out of hand with outrageous claims, ZSS is High-B, Low-A. She cannot compete with Marth for tier placement. Accept the limitations of the characters and continue working on your buffering research (which I do think is promising)
Anything I've said in regardes to matchups has come straight from Snakeee, except for my view on Falco which I knew would be controversial. That includes Lucario being even, wrecking ICs and GaW. And I believe 100% that Snake doesn't have an advantage and that it's even at worst.

But I just made the post because I want people to think outside their boxes, not because I actually think ZSS is S tier. I really dislike competitive gamer types; they're all number crunchers who can't think abstractly or in the future. Everything is so set in stone. Everyone would rather just accept it than try to improve it. There's a reason Fox and Pit are 8 and 4 on Japan's tier list and are 17 and 22 here. It's not because they're worse players, it's because they have players in high numbers invested in those characters and are making it work.

Brawl is a pretty well balanced game and characters will go as far as you take them. Anyone in the top half of the cast is good enough for winning or placing well in tourneys (and thus moving up on the tier list) if the players step it up. That's all I'm going to say on the subject. Can we move on please?
 

noradseven

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Anything I've said in regardes to matchups has come straight from Snakeee, except for my view on Falco which I knew would be controversial. That includes Lucario being even, wrecking ICs and GaW. And I believe 100% that Snake doesn't have an advantage and that it's even at worst.

But I just made the post because I want people to think outside their boxes, not because I actually think ZSS is S tier. I really dislike competitive gamer types; they're all number crunchers who can't think abstractly or in the future. Everything is so set in stone. Everyone would rather just accept it than try to improve it. There's a reason Fox and Pit are 8 and 4 on Japan's tier list and are 17 and 22 here. It's not because they're worse players, it's because they have players in high numbers invested in those characters and are making it work.

Brawl is a pretty well balanced game and characters will go as far as you take them. Anyone in the top half of the cast is good enough for winning or placing well in tourneys (and thus moving up on the tier list) if the players step it up. That's all I'm going to say on the subject. Can we move on please?
Its because tiers are truly affected by fanboyness, and japan LOVES Fox and Pit, just like how we love Snake, Marth, and DDD, because of this more people play them there metagame evolves faster, and people get generally better.

I have seen it happen in other games too all the time, where a clearly mid tier character keeps poking into high tier, because 1/6 the players play them.
 

sasook

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Japan also likes to spam and camp a lot more than we do. That's another reason why Pit is so much higher over there.
 

noradseven

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Im not sure how japans metagame has changed but they used to be really really aggressive, which was kind of odd because normally they are the most defensive. That and Europe is normally the most aggressive, and korea is normally the biggest range whores and spammers, I forget the differences between EC and WC, I think EC is more defensive if I remember right, and WC is more mindgames and baits.

Anything I've said in regardes to matchups has come straight from Snakeee, except for my view on Falco which I knew would be controversial. That includes Lucario being even, wrecking ICs and GaW. And I believe 100% that Snake doesn't have an advantage and that it's even at worst.

But I just made the post because I want people to think outside their boxes, not because I actually think ZSS is S tier. I really dislike competitive gamer types; they're all number crunchers who can't think abstractly or in the future. Everything is so set in stone. Everyone would rather just accept it than try to improve it. There's a reason Fox and Pit are 8 and 4 on Japan's tier list and are 17 and 22 here. It's not because they're worse players, it's because they have players in high numbers invested in those characters and are making it work.

Brawl is a pretty well balanced game and characters will go as far as you take them. Anyone in the top half of the cast is good enough for winning or placing well in tourneys (and thus moving up on the tier list) if the players step it up. That's all I'm going to say on the subject. Can we move on please?
Its because tiers are truly affected by fanboyness, and japan LOVES Fox and Pit, just like how we love Snake, Marth, and DDD, because of this more people play them there metagame evolves faster, and people get generally better.

I have seen it happen in other games too all the time, where a clearly mid tier character keeps poking into high tier, because 1/6 the players play them.
 
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Japan also likes to spam and camp a lot more than we do. That's another reason why Pit is so much higher over there.
I'm not sure I agree with this line of reasoning. If Pit is camping a Japanese player, he's going to try to do the same things we would. He's not going to "camp back!" and hope he wins or something.

I've seen this kind of thing said a number of times. "Japan camps more than we do" is newer. It used to be "Japanese players are very aggressive." A SWF and SBR-B member, Kel, is staying overseas in Japan and says the Japanese play just like we do, and just as well.

If you check out Hence's thread, you'll notice he's trying to take each character and dissect them by move. If I knock this guy into the air, what can he do? He can fastfall, airdodge, etc. Each of these moves has an answer or two, but there's no "hidden Japanese answer" and there's no answer that a Japanese player would favor over a US player. Everyone's trying to win, right?
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NwF89_mKpQ

Here's one. I don't think he's playing that campy, but he is definitely campy for a Pit player.

Japan's best Pit is probably the most campy player I've ever seen. In fact, I'm attempting to emulate his style with Pit.
Of the 2-3 colors you've tried in the past 5 minutes, pink is definitely the best on you.

kidding
 

Nefarious B

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Frisco you know
If Pits in Japan are winning by playing extremely campy it would have happened that way in the US too. Danny was planking with Pit in October, doesn't mean it got him very far, and just like any campy character you can't win by pure camping.

Oh my god, on the topic of videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTSC8Ts8LL0
I really underestimated Marth, big time. ;c
Razer just wasn't ready for Roy, he still won the set after that.
 
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