ZSS General Discussion

[ぱみゅ]

I think the whole point of a wavebounce is to have momentum, so "moving backwards" is pretty much implied....

 

[infiniteV115]

You could be moving forward before the wavebounce as opposed to moving backwards...

 

[DeLux]

You should tell me how it's easier for you to do neutral specials wavebounced

For me, side specials are easier because you just slam the analog stick back and forth real fast. In order to retain the same levels of momentum with a neutral special, you need to make a reverse input that's a quick and as close to neutral as possible so it doesn't kill your forward progress followed by an easy hard snap

 

[infiniteV115]

o.o
If anything a wavebounced sideB should have a higher risk of killing your momentum. A wavebounced sideB and a wavebounced nB have the same inputs, the only differences being
-With a wavebounced nB you don't have to go all the way back on the analog stick
-You're not pressing B while holding back

Both of these things meaning you're likely to spend less time holding back on the analog stick --> a smaller decrease in momentum.

 

[DeLux]

Some of us have an easier time moving faster when being delicate isn't an issue. And the fact that you have to wait for the analog stick to reneutral after the initial backwards input also tends to slow things down, by at least one frame in theory, by more in reality

I should rephrase,
Like order of difficulty for me:

Jump backwards, bounce forwards a side special is by far the easiest.

jumping backward to bouncing forwards is really easy since your backwards drifts counts as the input for the turn around. In actuality, how long one has to reneutral the control stick until the game no longer reads a turn around input gives me some consistency issues on jumping backwards and B reversing because I often find myself moving too fast for the game

Jump foward, then bouncing backwards to do a side special to hit forward is next hardest, but not substantially harder than the last one.

Followed by Jump foward, then bouncing backwards to neutral special forwards is the hardest for the aforementioned delicacy issues.

 

[Coolwhip]

Ahhh....I already know how to wavebounce (Natural B) Been doing it for years now. xD
I can wavebounce with ANY character in the game. b-reversing (side-b) is just hard for me to do.
I will keep working on it though. Thanks for the video, infinite.

 

[EsperTerra]

I think everything relating to B-reversals, wavebounces, etc. are easy for me. The only exception being neutral-b wavebouncing..

 

[Dakpo]

I can wavebounce with ANY character in the game.

Orly? You should tell the Samus mains how to do it. They have been trying for years. haha the look on their faces when you wavebounce! priceless!

Also, If you simply set a special button to Z,R, or L you can do the wavebounce with extreme ease and without having to lose ANY forward momentum. I just do the manual way for N special though. Doing the side B wave bounce any other way than with altered controls will naturally make it less drastic of a bounce.#Salem#V115

 

[Coolwhip]

@Dakpo: ok, i'd take back what i said about wavebouncing w/any character
in the game. Samus can't wavebounce at all. haha

 

[fkacyan]

 

[Coolwhip]

Dakpo. Thanks for telling me a different way for waveboucing (side-b)
of course i had to set the special button as "L" like you told me. Mad easy to do now. (-_^)b

 

[Dakpo]

Oh yea ;D
I've been doing it since Genesis 2, and I have caught so many people with it!

 

[NickRiddle]

Didn't I teach you how to wavebounce at Genesis 2?

 

[Dakpo]

Didn't I teach you how to wavebounce at Genesis 2?

Lmao no, you were trying to teach me how to B reverse ....Which was really kinda funny to watch since I had been doing it for years. You did a B reverse with your Side B against someone and It looked funny. I asked to make sure it was a B reverse since I had never tried to use it with side B ( I always B reversed the N special ). You sat me down to teach me how to B reverse. I didn't bother to tell you that I knew how to do it since you were kind enough to explain it and seemed really excited to tell me. I kinda just sat there and watched you tell me about how to do it haha. Thanks for helping me anyways. Hope that doesn't offend you :/ I meant no disrespect

 

[NickRiddle]

... What's the difference between B-reverse and wavebounce?
Pretty sure they're the same term.

 

[infiniteV115]

They're not. It's just that a lot of people don't really know much about this topic so they throw out the wrong name/refer to 2 different things with the same name/etc.
http://smashboards.com/threads/334389/

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Its funny how those terms changed over time. I remember the first thread about reversing momentum and direction, called Wavebouncing. Now that's a B-Reverse.
B-Reverse used to be just changing direction. There wasn't even a name for changing momentum but not direction, it was just "reverse wavebounce". Sigh.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Salem placed 3rd today, beat adhd and m2k, lost to nairo (really close set) and zero.

 

[Tesh]

Zero did alot of those smart things ya'll were so mad MKs weren't doing. Only a matter of time before everyone else starts punishing 9/10 down Bs.

 

[Shadow Tactics]

i'm surprised they weren't doing it already. i always use down b as a last resort. once a zss has been forced to use it offstage, most of the time it should mean that either they're going to take a lot of damage, or get gimped (not just against MK either). i remember my games with ramin back in '09 and whenever i was forced to down b offstage he'd either dish out a nice helping of %, or kill me. i'm still surprised he lost to salem actually (sorry for going off on a tangent).

 

[Tesh]

honestly, i felt like salem has almost no mixups vs zero. he kept trying to same tricks that werent working during his follow ups and down b is a damn good move as a reaction, but MK covers that stuff easy

zero's hard work payed off, he definitely seems like the type to go the lab and practice that stuff, we will see if the others follow suit

salem placed 1st then 2nd then 3rd this year...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

HOLY **** ITS SHADOW TACTICS

also woo waiting for the set vs Zero then.

 

[Shadow Tactics]

lmao xonar, didn't know you were still around

you still play often?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Tesh touched on it but I also don't really feel like Salem played very well against Zero yesterday. Zero came prepared for everything he thought Salem might do, and Salem didn't mix up his strategies at all, kept getting punished for the same stuff. But he's a smart player, I'm sure he can figure out what to do.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

lmao xonar, didn't know you were still around

you still play often?

Surprised you even remember me haha

I don't really play whatsoever. I play brawl to chill with buddies and that's about it. How about you?

 

[Tesh]

Tesh touched on it but I also don't really feel like Salem played very well against Zero yesterday. Zero came prepared for everything he thought Salem might do, and Salem didn't mix up his strategies at all, kept getting punished for the same stuff. But he's a smart player, I'm sure he can figure out what to do.

yea, i think the important thing to take away from it is that this isn't just "ZSS being figured out after a week" , Zero adapted, and if Salem can adapt this character is still worth something

 

[Snakeee]

Zero did alot of those smart things ya'll were so mad MKs weren't doing. Only a matter of time before everyone else starts punishing 9/10 down Bs.

Seems I only get to play the ones that do happen to know exactly how to play the match up lol. I think it does make a significant difference if the MK is capable of gimping ZSS well. However, it's not as disturbing as I used to think. The odds are much higher of ZSS reaching the ledge rather than being gimped when offstage, and it usually only happens at mid-high percent.

ZSS has a decent amount of recovery options, such as throwing out a paralyzer shot on the way back. Even that can be punished though to be honest. When I practice with my brother (Shadow), if he anticipates a paralyzer he will jump offstage and d-air me before it comes out -.- . The move has quite a bit of a start up time, and this seems to be an issue even when ZSS uses it while far offstage (even when she's in the bubble my brother has gimped me on occasion).

Her recovery options are various enough to make it more likely that you'll recover, but the MK should be risking little when guessing wrong (unless he's at veryy high percent). MK ending up being spiked/stage-spiked should be extremely rare, and this shows a clear lack of match up knowledge as far as edgeguarding when this happens on more than one occasion in a set (quite a few top MK's vs. Salem at Apex to be quite honest).

All in all, I think edgeguarding knowledge shifts things in MK's favor, but not as significantly as it might seem. I think ZSS is still viable, but it is discouraging to see her lose an early stock. She might be able to make the occasional comeback with some very hard punishes, but it's definitely quite a steep uphill battle when you end up short a full stock.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I play brawl to chill with buddies and that's about it. How about you?

That's currently me in a nutshell. Until I play with some really good players regularly, I'm still defining my skill level: scrub.

Onto the discussion at hand, Salem lost to Zero? The last time I saw them play was at Winter Brawl, hence Salem won. When was this? (Awaits the slowpoke.jpeg responses.)

 

[infiniteV115]

At a tournament called Rescue 2, happened yesterday

 

[PEACE7]

I missed the stream who did salem beat there?
Pulling it off during matches yeee http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA-EP1felq4

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I missed the stream who did salem beat there?
Pulling it off during matches yeee http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA-EP1felq4

nice lol

ADHD, M2k, all I'm aware of

 

[PEACE7]

Oh awesome I can't wait to see the set against ADHD it should be interesting. And my bad SFP I didn't see your post from before I should of looked up lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments/b/373156742

1:22:00

Great set -- first game was an amazing cmoeback, you can actually see Salem downloading him lol

 

[fkacyan]

Tesh touched on it but I also don't really feel like Salem played very well against Zero yesterday. Zero came prepared for everything he thought Salem might do, and Salem didn't mix up his strategies at all, kept getting punished for the same stuff. But he's a smart player, I'm sure he can figure out what to do.

Salem hasn't really varied his playstyle much at all since early last year.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

LOLOLOL Thio you are so ****ing funny

 

[Tesh]

well he hasn't really needed to

 

[fkacyan]

LOLOLOL Thio you are so ****ing funny

He hasn't. His tendencies in various high pressure situations have been the same since he entered the IRL tourney scene. It's just that people got conditioned by a different style of ZSS play and recovery (as much as they could have) and his options worked well against that conditioning and/or lack of knowledge.

If you actually want this character to go somewhere you're going to have to look into and acknowledge how and why a player using your character does well or doesn't.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

"Go somewhere?" lol

 

[fkacyan]

"Go somewhere?" lol

You're yet another Smasher more than content to discuss useless **** like character-specific gimmicks when you DA at the edge and tier list / arbitrary matchup +/- numbers rather than actually sitting down, gathering data and analyzing stuff, so I guess you really wouldn't know what it is to advance a character, eh?

 

[Tesh]

Anyone else think a ZSS/Samus team would be amazing in doubles? Early game absurd fortress defense with Zamus crawling under missles and zair. Crawl-->Shield deflection to fire Charge shots into the air. Mid game suit pieces without the crummy load time that ruins it in singles. Then you can do stuff like leapfrog side Bs and just generally whoring out the stuff that makes ZSS good.

Sounds like fun on the bun to me.