ZSS General Discussion

[Linkshot]

I'd definitely be down to play the Samus in this setup.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Ha, the team sounds interesting since you put it that way with the crouching from Samus' missiles.

 

[PEACE7]

Let's say a falco does upB towards us on stage, I know we can shield and punish but what would be the most rewarding thing to do here?

 

[infiniteV115]

Dsmash if you can. If you can't, sideB.
If you can't, grab and then pummel --> uthrow. If you can't do any of that, utilt OoS.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Can't figure out which ZSS punish option to use? Follow this simple flowchart:

 

[Shadow Tactics]

hey guys, i want you to tell me whatcha think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bba8EtSfRa4#t=51s

check how i get back up on to the stage, never seen that before. really old match btw, i quit in 09 & this was 2 years later when i had only just picked up a gc controller again, no point in watching the rest of it 'cause it's awful.

Surprised you even remember me haha

I don't really play whatsoever. I play brawl to chill with buddies and that's about it. How about you?

started playing now & then a few months back when chilling with friends but now i'm gonna be taking it seriously for a bit. once i learn how to integrate all this new flashy stuff into my gameplay consistently, i'll probably quit again lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

That's actually very interesting. Are you positive it has nothing to do with the stage/character texture? It does look like the hacks are purely visual though, so I'll test that out later.

 

[Shadow Tactics]

thanks, i would've attempted to test it myself but i don't have a wii with me at the moment. i'd be surprised if texture hacks have anything to do with it, can they have direct effects on gameplay like that? i'm no good when it comes to knowledge about all this wii hacking stuff.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The puff of smoke produced when Shay landed on stage is consistent with the visual produced by a get-up option (jump, attack). It looks like he cancelled the ledge hop o_O...

or wavelanded or some ****, what the hell is that? XD

 

[Heero Yuy]

Can't figure out which ZSS punish option to use? Follow this simple flowchart:

This will be very useful. Thanks for posting it!

Onto my question... What other options are there for edge guarding? So far, I'm pretty solid on the Dsmash spamming then footstooling/Bair/etc. but I'm so caught up within several videos that I can't keep up with every option.

 

[infiniteV115]

UpB spikes, forcing airdodges with lasers/sideB and then punishing the airdodges (you can actually frame trap with sideB, it's pretty cool)

 

[Heero Yuy]

Right, I can UpB spike rather well, though I need practice on my timing... By frame trapping, you mean the moment they get out of the airdodge frames they are practically left helpless?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

started playing now & then a few months back when chilling with friends but now i'm gonna be taking it seriously for a bit. once i learn how to integrate all this new flashy stuff into my gameplay consistently, i'll probably quit again lol.

Sounds like a blast.

As for the get up, get puff of smoke is from landing. I'll give it a 99% chance that it's Battlefields edge canceling your jump with the Magic Pixel, also featured in films such as Cancel upBs, Infinite Paralyzer on MK, Standing Falco Dthrow Chaingrab, and the big hit Zelda Dthrow Spikes You.

 

[Snakeee]

You're yet another Smasher more than content to discuss useless **** like character-specific gimmicks when you DA at the edge and tier list / arbitrary matchup +/- numbers rather than actually sitting down, gathering data and analyzing stuff, so I guess you really wouldn't know what it is to advance a character, eh?

Kinda harsh mun, 'ent it?. I reckon analyzing players and analyzing data are both pretty flippin important

 

[fkacyan]

None of the discussion is ever actual analysis.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I would honestly leave the analysis part to the personal sphere, meaning it's more important if one studies the game/characters in-depth on their own, unless something big comes up that needs to be discussed.

 

[Snakeee]

I would honestly leave the analysis part to the personal sphere, meaning it's more important if one studies the game/characters in-depth on their own, unless something big comes up that needs to be discussed.

I disagree, I think its important to study particular players to see what strategies of theirs seem to be most efficient, and which ones lead to punishment most often. It's also good to watch closely and analyze other players that use your character in order to expand your perspective on how the character can be played. It helps me become more versatile because I'll see other players choose options that I normally wouldn't in a given scenario.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

^ I study alot of the better players with ZSS and try to combine all the styles into something that feels right.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I just b-reverse everything

 

[Heero Yuy]

^ I study alot of the better players with ZSS and try to combine all the styles into something that feels right.

Couldn't have put it any better, myself.

 

[PEACE7]

So the snake MU can be so frustrating at times when your opponent perfect shields everything i throw

 

[infiniteV115]

If he's perfect shielding your dsmashes, start charging them.
If you notice he's just walking up to your and powershielding, grab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Grab is pretty good at max range.

I think people are a little too afraid to grab in some cases. The slow startup really only makes it unsuitable for closerange punishes and OOS stuff, it is pretty fast for to its range. If some guy is smugly walking at you PSing everything it's because he feels safe from your grab. Show him how wrong he is.

 

[Heero Yuy]

What options exist after 2 Dsmashes? (There should be a guide somewhere on this forum for all her advanced techniques so I won't have to ask all these silly questions...)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Depends on how dead they are already. At about 90% you can do a third dsmash to uair.

General guide for punishes:

Before ~40%: Dsmash->nair->fair
After 40% and before ~60%: Dsmash x2->dash attack or two depending on DI->utilt
Between 60% and kill percent: Dsmash x2 -> bair or fair
Light dudes after 95% or so: dsmash x3->uair
After 160% or so: dsmash x2-> fsmash or bair

At any time you can choose to keep your aerials fresh by using side-b if you want.

 

[infiniteV115]

I don't think nair-->fair is guaranteed at low%s

Anyway I've been noticing recently that dsmash x2 --> fair will work until like 90 (ie 90 after both dsmashes) on most chars. Even later on heavier chars.

I also don't followup with bair until kill %s, dsmash x2 --> back of nair has better followup potential and dsmash x3 --> uair does more damage.

 

[PEACE7]

If he's perfect shielding your dsmashes, start charging them.
If you notice he's just walking up to your and powershielding, grab.

Yea i started charging the dsmashes towards the last few matches and it seemed to work really well, but as for the grabs I was too afraid and dumb so I didn't go for them when I should of.

Grab is pretty good at max range.

I think people are a little too afraid to grab in some cases. The slow startup really only makes it unsuitable for closerange punishes and OOS stuff, it is pretty fast for to its range. If some guy is smugly walking at you PSing everything it's because he feels safe from your grab. Show him how wrong he is.

I will deff keep it in mind man because this is legit exactly what was going on, I was too afraid to throw out grab and he was walking towards me with that shield feeling safe from the grab i never threw

 

[Heero Yuy]

I don't think nair-->fair is guaranteed at low%s

I have to agree with V on this... Every punish on Supermodel's list works perfectly for me, but this one seems iffy to pull off. Another option after 1 Dsmash <40%, perhaps?

 

[infiniteV115]

Below 40, assuming you don't have a dsmash lock on the char, you can just do dsmash x2 and follow up with
Fair (both hits)
Dash attack --> utilt
SideB (both hits)

Or on MK Lucas Pikachu and Squirtle, instead of the 2nd option you can grab them out of the dsmash, and then air release --> dash attack --> utilt (maybe with 1 pummel at the most)

 

[NickRiddle]

You don't get dash-attack on Pikachu.
All you get is a regrab.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Wait why doesn't the air release --> dash attack work on Pikachu? On that note, since I've never played the MU before, why is it so bad against her favor to begin with?

 

[NickRiddle]

It's a lot like playing MK... the difference is, no nado, and you sometimes die to Thunder.
The advantage is off-stage for both, but the fact that gimps happen at any % make it a losing MU.
Also, because Pikachu just goes too far from the GR. Regrab works because it's away from ZSS's body.

 

[Dakpo]

V115, I'm not sure if xyro is going to upload the bracket to that tourney. So to save you some trouble, I lost to Denti (0-2) and Trela (1-2). Every game was last stock last hit and could have gone either way. Nothing was recorded, sadly. And if I'm mistaken and you could care less on how I did at the tourney then I'm ******** and feel really stupid for telling you this

 

[infiniteV115]

So I've been realizing recently that Halberd and Delfino are awesome stages for ZSS because we don't get gimped there (or rather, it's significantly harder to gimp us there). Thoughts?

Lol ninja'd, I actually did care very much to find out how you did at the tourney and I was talking to Asa about it on fb. He told me you were having trouble with Domo, then you 2-1'd Asa and lost to Denti.

It's the reason I asked for the bracket in the HOBO thread. Glad to hear you're doing better against Denti and your wrist is all healed up.

Recently I've been feeling better and better about the Olimar MU. I used to think it was potentially -2, now I'm considering it close to even, though this may just be because I've been having no trouble with Tin Man recently. We'll see.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Halberd is a tough one. ZSS should be good there because it assists her recovery and gives her an early kill option with uair, but the issue is that she's very light and the stage boundaries are lower. It's a high-risk, high-reward CP. I think it's a good stage to use against players who aren't as good as you but got a lucky win round 1 or something, as it tends to enhance her strengths but also magnify her weaknesses.

It's also just straight-up better for many good characters, including MK and Snake, as well as Olimar and so forth. Maybe it's a good CP against Diddy? I dunno.

V: I think you're better than Tin Man, so that's not surprising. Would be interested in how your experience vs. TM translates to a few top-tier Olimars like Dabuz.

 

[infiniteV115]

Ftr I also MM'ed Fino at Apex 2013 (he had been trash talking me for months prior when watching my sets vs Tin, and at Apex he told me he was 5-0 with Dakpo in bracket sets) and 3-0'd him. So it may not just be Tin XD

And yeah it sounds like it'd be good against Diddy, though imo BF is still really good against him

 

[Heero Yuy]

I'm not sure if it's just me, but I've tried doing the grab => pummel => regrab => repeat thing on the characters it's possible to do one: MK, Lucas, Squirtle, etc. (I'm probably missing a few) but I seem to find most difficulty to do it with Pikachu. Nick, is that what you were referring to when Pika goes far too out of the GR?

 

[NickRiddle]

I'm not sure if it's just me, but I've tried doing the grab => pummel => regrab => repeat thing on the characters it's possible to do one: MK, Lucas, Squirtle, etc. (I'm probably missing a few) but I seem to find most difficulty to do it with Pikachu. Nick, is that what you were referring to when Pika goes far too out of the GR?

Yeah. Pikachu is released further from ZSS than the rest of the GRable cast.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ftr I also MM'ed Fino at Apex 2013 (he had been trash talking me for months prior when watching my sets vs Tin, and at Apex he told me he was 5-0 with Dakpo in bracket sets) and 3-0'd him. So it may not just be Tin XD

And yeah it sounds like it'd be good against Diddy, though imo BF is still really good against him

Wow, nice! You really need to get your sets recorded more often, btw. Most of your recent sets on YT are shut-outs against players I've never heard of.

 

[Tesh]

Thats because he lives in Canada.