ZSS General Discussion

[PEACE7]

If only it wasn't an elaborate hoax.

You still haven't gotten it? And how are you trying to do it?

I still can't get it to work... D:

Hmm i wish i could find an easier way to explain it :/ ill try and talk to V155 and Dakpo and see if we can come up with an easy way to explain how to do it, the way I do it is i aim for the bottom end of the slant on either side upB and make sure it doesn't go for the ledge so the upB should be silent than double jump.

.

Here is a clip from the video i made a while back but in slowmo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5tM20Psvlk

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It looks like you're double jumping first.

 

[C.J.]

http://i1145.photobucket.com/albums/o509/nobody045/ZSSwhy.png

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

we should really learn this, it is hype.
i can imagine Salem is already practicing this for Apex xD

i have problems for the Wario Grab release/infinite.
if I use dsmash right after the grab release, the pivot grab is sometimes just too low and i can't regrab Wario is there some trick to master this?
ah and is this true, that Wario can escape the Dsmash after the air release with the bike?

how do you deal with the grab release? when do you use dsmash, when just a simple aerial?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

wario can escape if he holds away and jumps, so dont dsmash

just regrab
if he has no bike and no jump and you grab him, you can dsmash. woohoo.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

so grab to grab to grab to grab works? lol. i am asking myself, if this is legit. one mistake and you get punished.

are you really sure, Wario can escape dsmash with a jump??

 

[NickRiddle]

Hold away + jump works, but then you eat their jump if you aerial.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

if youre retardedly slow, you do lol

 

[infiniteV115]

Quik, regrab works but you can't buffer the regrab. If you do it comes out too soon

 

[PEACE7]

I'm ****ing horrible against peach someone help me its depressing

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Nick riddle "never side b"

 

[infiniteV115]

More specifically, he said 'never sideB and always bair'

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I used to be pretty decent at this match-up because I played dark.pch for like 30 hours a week, but I've since gotten rusty. My suggestion is to avoid side-b if you can, because peach doesn't usually get hit by it. It has some uses (long-range landing punishes mostly) but typically you'll want to bair or fair instead.

The #1 thing to know in the Peach match-up is that your shield is garbage and Peach doesn't give a **** about it. Respect the bubble around her, but do not shield if you can avoid it. Always dash, never shield. Good peach players know that if you shield you are going to f-roll (because you don't have another option) and you will take damage for it, and your dash speed is impossible for Peach to deal with.

There is almost never a good time to froll out of shield in this match-up. If Peach is floating above you hitting your shield with dair, you are in a position you won't get out of without taking damage if Peach is paying attention. Both of your rolls are owned on reaction. If you find yourself in this situation, mix up spot dodges and rolls to try to escape. You won't look elegant doing it, but it works so long as you don't get read and punished for spot dodging. If you're good at SDI and don't mind taking a little damage, you can let the dair hit you, sdi up and hit her with some aerial, I forget which one... maybe nair.

The #2 thing to know is that Peach can not ****ing kill you. Read this over and over again. It doesn't matter how behind you are, camp like crazy. Peach isn't safe on the ledge, so she's not going to plank you. Take your little hits and get the hell out. Peach is safe when attempting kills, but isn't rewarded until very high percents. The longer you stay alive, the more frustrating the game will be for her.

Another thing to understand vs. Peach is that typical landing traps don't really work on her because she has an extra option (float). It is very important to keep track of whether or not she has used float. Pivot grab will punish ground floats or floats around waist height.

Fair (falling, approaching, all forms) is awesome in this match-up because of the angle it hits Peach and how many ways there are to catch her with it. Bair is a nice poke, and nair is really good at punishing predictable Peach stuff like predictable dair floats.

Jab and catch turnips. Generally if Peach is throwing turnips at you from a distance you can catch it and throw it back.

It can be hard to get nice strings going on Peach vertically because of float, but you can boost jump to try to mitigate this a bit.

Do not jab Peach in the air, she'll nair out, but on the ground the whole thing connects.

If Peach recovers low, grab the ledge, drop down and bair her.

 

[Shaky]

I main ZSS now.

And I'm better than NickRiddle.

 

[NickRiddle]

At the ditto.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Damn man, you gotta kick it up a notch if you wanna beat Sally.

 

[PEACE7]

I used to be pretty decent at this match-up because I played dark.pch for like 30 hours a week, but I've since gotten rusty. My suggestion is to avoid side-b if you can, because peach doesn't usually get hit by it. It has some uses (long-range landing punishes mostly) but typically you'll want to bair or fair instead.

The #1 thing to know in the Peach match-up is that your shield is garbage and Peach doesn't give a **** about it. Respect the bubble around her, but do not shield if you can avoid it. Always dash, never shield. Good peach players know that if you shield you are going to f-roll (because you don't have another option) and you will take damage for it, and your dash speed is impossible for Peach to deal with.

There is almost never a good time to froll out of shield in this match-up. If Peach is floating above you hitting your shield with dair, you are in a position you won't get out of without taking damage if Peach is paying attention. Both of your rolls are owned on reaction. If you find yourself in this situation, mix up spot dodges and rolls to try to escape. You won't look elegant doing it, but it works so long as you don't get read and punished for spot dodging. If you're good at SDI and don't mind taking a little damage, you can let the dair hit you, sdi up and hit her with some aerial, I forget which one... maybe nair.

The #2 thing to know is that Peach can not ****ing kill you. Read this over and over again. It doesn't matter how behind you are, camp like crazy. Peach isn't safe on the ledge, so she's not going to plank you. Take your little hits and get the hell out. Peach is safe when attempting kills, but isn't rewarded until very high percents. The longer you stay alive, the more frustrating the game will be for her.

Another thing to understand vs. Peach is that typical landing traps don't really work on her because she has an extra option (float). It is very important to keep track of whether or not she has used float. Pivot grab will punish ground floats or floats around waist height.

Fair (falling, approaching, all forms) is awesome in this match-up because of the angle it hits Peach and how many ways there are to catch her with it. Bair is a nice poke, and nair is really good at punishing predictable Peach stuff like predictable dair floats.

Jab and catch turnips. Generally if Peach is throwing turnips at you from a distance you can catch it and throw it back.

It can be hard to get nice strings going on Peach vertically because of float, but you can boost jump to try to mitigate this a bit.

Do not jab Peach in the air, she'll nair out, but on the ground the whole thing connects.

If Peach recovers low, grab the ledge, drop down and bair her.

I LOVE YOU!

Thank you very much man I thought sideB was good in the mu lol I will stay moving at all times now thanks a lot

 

[Dakpo]

God this zss is amazing!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtzBy1x8ge4&feature=g-all-u

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I couldn't even finish the first match
this guy is BAD

why the hell do you think he's any good or was it a joke or something?

 

[infiniteV115]

Lol yeah seriously he's not good
Panic frolls everywhere
Approaches grounded MK with full hop (or DJ) rising fairs?
Keeps using full jab combo on MK for some reason (though maybe he knew Otori didn't know you can PS the 3rd hit?)

It also looks like Otori doesn't know this MU. He kept getting hit by dsmashes when trying to get back onstage from the edge. Keeps getting hit by jab3 for some reason. Barely uses ftilt.

Well, now I know what to do against Otori if I play him at Apex JAB ALL DAY

Oh...he started punishing it.
8:23 .... -.- Okay it should be obvious by now that Otori doesn't know this MU, and that the ZSS doesn't know what he's doing. Like seriously, dsmash --> falling fair1?
It takes creativity to be this bad.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Yo.
I lost to a wario this weekend.

I just dont get how that match is played, wario is so awkward. I feel like his Dair beats alot of our approaches, and my normal jab -> runaway punish tactics were being eaten by Fsmash.

 

[DeLux]

I learned a lot?

 

[Dakpo]

I couldn't even finish the first match
this guy is BAD

why the hell do you think he's any good or was it a joke or something?

Maybe you guys just can't see all the small things he is doing. This zss had some amazing new ideas that I have not seen before. Try to not to be so closed minded.

When you guys take otori to game 3, then feel free to bash this guy. Real talk

 

[infiniteV115]

I thought I made it obvious that Otori didn't know the MU. Obviously you can take top players to game 3 if you're not 100% free and they don't know the MU at all. How do you think I took Ally to game 3

Uh maybe you'd like to point out what these small things are and change our perspectives? I saw nothing new, outside of the bad stuff.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

hey man getting hit by sideBs like that and full jabs and not knowing what to do about armor pieces

sure ill take otori to game3

jk but I really dont think hes that good lol

 

[Dakpo]

I thought I made it obvious that Otori didn't know the MU. Obviously you can take top players to game 3 if you're not 100% free and they don't know the MU at all. How do you think I took Ally to game 3

Uh maybe you'd like to point out what these small things are and change our perspectives? I saw nothing new, outside of the bad stuff.

First off. Otori>Ally. Second, I'm sure quick knows more about this than I do, but Japanese tournaments have 1 game rounds. Which means they have to learn how to completely adapt within 1 match. Otori's adaptations and reaction times are incredible. This set goes to game 3! this is way more than enough time to simply adjust to a "Bad zss player" You would have to be naïve to think that some random would take one of the best Mks in the world to game 3, LET ALONE 2 STOCK HIM!
Come on guys. This is the same metaknight that came and wiped his dirty boots all over America at Apex

K, sure Ill point out why this guy is super pro.
So start of the match, his armor game isn't Salem status, but it is really quick and flowed super smooth. I think he throws his armor parts off because he doesn't seem like he wants 3 (much like nick riddle does)
Then he makes an amazing punish with diar. Theres no way I would have seen that option. I've only seen Salem make those kinds of punishes.
Directly after this he stops tornado with N special (which I'm pretty sure it was a fluke) But its interesting to know that its an option.
This zss is AMAZING at doing the turn around Forward Roll. This makes him incredibly hard to follow around. Especially when he does it so quick! like at 0:30. He does this a lot though, and it's definitely something I need to work on myself.
Then he does a few technical mistakes, like back rolling and missing and Down B kick cancel. :/
at 0:45 He lands a jab combo. He knows full well that it shouldn't of worked, but otori didn't shield it. So why not go for it again?
then at 0:50 get up to dash attack? wtf..brilliant. Who sees that coming? and then Otori techs the ground. Instead of going for a hard read, Kamemushi goes into pure reaction mode and grabs once he sees otori just trying to stand straight up. It takes a lot of skill to have that kind of patience with a tech chase against a character with so many options.
One bit of criticism though, I hate his Down Smash Combos. So far the only Zss with Good down smash combos are Me, V115, and quicksilver. Nick and Salem have terrible Down smash follow ups XD <3 especially when they think its an awesome idea to stale bair at 95%
I think Kamemushi could be a lot better if he learned how to B stick really well (delux can attest for how hard it is to fight against it ;D)
1:09- He takes the worst recover route ever!....or does he? yea he does but it could have worked out fine for him. The point being is that he went for a super obvious recovery. When we reach a high level of play, Its all about thinking 2 steps ahead of your opponent. I have no doubt in my mind that otori's gears were turning trying to figure out what weird way he might recover. Thats why Otori tried to turn his Gimping game into a reaction game. This recovery style will win Kamemushi the 2nd game.
Now this is what I'm mostly impressed about 1:21. He shields a glide attack and then proceeds to take shield pressure from down tilts. Seem Familiar? Both player remember what happened at 0:45 when Otori lost a down tilt battle by being jabbed. Obviously being the top level play that Otori is, he will adapt to beat the jab. So Kamemushi shields the down first 2 down tilts. Otori pull but his shield expecting to be jabbed like he was the first time but instead Kamemushi rolls and then Jab 1s. At this point Otori adapts buy trying to Up him; however, Kamemushi does a mix up roll instead of finishing the jab combo. This is adapting at its best!!!!!!!
I don't think I like his grab release combos but he did well in getting the grabs in the first place.
1:36 Otori starts to condition with a Down tilt trap. which he does through the set
2:30 nice recovery
2:39- Otori gets caught in jab and IS LIFTED OFF THE GROUND. That means he needs mad sdi to even have a chance of shielding the third hit. If I caught someone off the ground, why not finish the jab combo?
2:47 --hard fail
3"02 here we are again. Kamemushi is being down tilted again. After the second down tilt he rolls (like he did last time). Otori wasnt quick enough last time to punish it and got jabbed. So this time he adapts by shielding immediately after Mushi rolls behind him. Mushi decides to down tilt instead of jabbing this time. which turns out to be a great option for him. This is really high level adapting <333333
4:19- otori is off the ground again when jab starts, he cant shield it V115
and now Im getting tired of typing. All sorts of things happen through out the next matches.

 

[infiniteV115]

First off. Otori>Ally. Second, I'm sure quick knows more about this than I do, but Japanese tournaments have 1 game rounds. Which means they have to learn how to completely adapt within 1 match. Otori's adaptations and reaction times are incredible. This set goes to game 3! this is way more than enough time to simply adjust to a "Bad zss player" You would have to be naïve to think that some random would take one of the best Mks in the world to game 3, LET ALONE 2 STOCK HIM!
Come on guys. This is the same metaknight that came and wiped his dirty boots all over America at Apex

Again, I thought I made it clear (ie with good reasoning) that Otori doesn't know the MU. Though admittedly I was exaggerating when calling him bad. He's not bad, but I definitely don't think it's accurate to call him amazing (and especially calling him the best ZSS player). He's creative (you pointed out some of his creative options) but he has some bad habits (seriously I thought all his frolls were obvious, he did them whenever he felt pressured, idk how Otori didn't catch on) and doesn't capitalize properly off of dsmash and grabs.

Then he makes an amazing punish with diar. Theres no way I would have seen that option. I've only seen Salem make those kinds of punishes.

That's because nothing of mine has been uploaded since IMPULSE

Directly after this he stops tornado with N special (which I'm pretty sure it was a fluke) But its interesting to know that its an option.

No not really. If you aim a move properly you can hit MK's hurtbox without hitting his hitboxes as well, knocking him out of nado.

This zss is AMAZING at doing the turn around Forward Roll. This makes him incredibly hard to follow around. Especially when he does it so quick! like at 0:30. He does this a lot though, and it's definitely something I need to work on myself.

It wasn't a turnaround froll, it was a regular froll.
I think they're all obvious :\
It really really really seems like he's just doing them out of habit

then at 0:50 get up to dash attack? wtf..brilliant. Who sees that coming? and then Otori techs the ground. Instead of going for a hard read, Kamemushi goes into pure reaction mode and grabs once he sees otori just trying to stand straight up. It takes a lot of skill to have that kind of patience with a tech chase against a character with so many options.

Yeah that was pretty nice I'll admit.

2:39- Otori gets caught in jab and IS LIFTED OFF THE GROUND. That means he needs mad sdi to even have a chance of shielding the third hit. If I caught someone off the ground, why not finish the jab combo?

Otori SDI'd it up, which is why it picked him up off the ground. It doesn't do that without SDI (not on MK anyway)
And if Otori was SDIing ZSS' jab up, that's just another sign that he doesn't know the MU. All he has to do is hold shield to avoid jab3.
If he's afraid of jab mixups, he should be SDIing behind/away.

3"02 - Another obvious froll.
I mean seriously dude, it's been his panic 'oh **** he can hit me' option like 90% of the time.
0:30, 0:31, 0:40, 0:41, 1:23, 1:36, 1:43, 2:02, 3:00, 3:02, 3:07, 3:36 (this is like the exact same thing as 2:02), 4:04
One froll was excluded because that was a jab mixup. That's 13/14 = actually more than 90% XD
I really don't know how Otori didn't catch on.

I mean again he's not terrible. He has some creative offensive options (suitpieces, grabs) but his air release and dsmash followups are terrible, and his defensive options are absolutely trash. He always airdodges into the ground (ie doesn't mixup his landings with nair/bair/b-reversed paralyzers and sideBs) and frolls like a lil *****.

The only time he was being pressured and didn't froll, he spotdodged (this happened twice). One of them worked cause he jabbed right after, the other didn't.

You, me, NR, Salem and Quik are definitely better than this guy. Probably Mr.R and Serudos too XD

 

[NickRiddle]

... lol

 

[Dakpo]

I went overboard with the best zss thing, but I did learn a lot from him. Thanks for actually reading the post though

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

SFP is better than this guy, you just don't know it yet. 8-)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm fairly sure V115 is the best zss in the world after watching his set vs Mr. R.

Like wtf

 

[infiniteV115]

I hope you're talking about game 1 and game 3 minus the ending

To anyone that hasn't seen it, here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkyQi0Qrfyc&feature=plcp

 

[ぱみゅ]

wow, he was playing smart and safe, not over-the-top, unnecessary aggro like usual.
He was juggling greatly, and his Fairs were really smart.
Aso, he did his homework, Bair beats FlipJump on reaction all right if spaced correctly, and he did it several times.

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Dakpo: the usual Japanese adapts reaaally fast. And my pool was played with bo1, and it was a national tournament lol

can't wait to look the set with V115 against Ramin, because I can compare it with the set from myself.

I also have to watch the Japanese guy, all i know is the Mk Mu can be really hard. Maybe it is the hardest, if the Mk is good at it. I already saw player like Salem getting wrecked by Nairo, Zero etc. And realized every Zss has the same stupid problems against him

also there won't be a set from me from the latest national uploaded, because i worked a lot on my playstyle and don't want to gettin analyzed by people for Apex (dunno if this is rly necessary, but could help)

 

[Zinoto]

Wow, when did the Implse videos go up lol. I wish you had linked these earlier, going through the twitch stream is sad. Also, you played amazing V and this was quite sometime ago. I'm really curious to see how much you've improved since then. Also Also, makes me feel sad in this MU

 

[Player-1]

i'm the best zss

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

V you're awesome but you could have played better in game 4. **** happens man you gotta learn to shake it off.

 

[Dakpo]

I hope you're talking about game 1 and game 3 minus the ending

To anyone that hasn't seen it, here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkyQi0Qrfyc&feature=plcp

I have some good advice for you. Ill type it up at the end of the day

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

wow, he was playing smart and safe, not over-the-top, unnecessary aggro like usual.
He was juggling greatly, and his Fairs were really smart.
Aso, he did his homework, Bair beats FlipJump on reaction all right if spaced correctly, and he did it several times.

You're a ****** LOL

 

[ぱみゅ]

You're a ****** LOL

Do you feel better after flat-out insulting someone with no actual reasoning?
If anything, I probably don't understand Marth as much as I thought.

And I just noticed I forgot to add "as Shaya told many times but people ignored him when he did" after "Bair beats FlipJump on reaction all right if spaced correctly"