ZGD: Livin by a thread.

[GodAtHand]

Yah, they had a major lack of setups. I feel bad since I didn't bring one. My TV is bulky and wouldn't fit in the car. You would think with 400ish brawlers there would be at least 100 setups but apparently people didn't bring many.

 

[Alacion]

The doubles match with Riot is available... just find the 11 hour long video and it's at the end of one of the parts maybe the 3rd one. The commentary by Pierce (I think) on Zelda was inaccurate on many counts :/

As for Jigglypuff that's how she wins in my area too. Delfino, Brinstar, or more likely Halberd was used? I honestly never believed the matchup was even and that the matchup was -1 or worse. Once Puff has the % lead it's all over.

But yeah I think every Zelda was proud of her rep at Apex. If I wasn't such a scrub, had the money, and didn't have school I would have come.

How much Zelda did Ed use and was there anybody that was blown away by our character?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I can agree that the setup situation was a mess. I don't think they were prepared for 400 and the fact that many promised setups didn't come through hurt as well.

@Riot about Puffster: Time out puff is very scary for us. As far as Rollout, I generally say avoid it because it kills so early. If your are feeling gutsy, Utilt murders rollout but the risk is huge. The MU generally involves reading their landing habits and making some attempts to punish aerials to keep them honest.

When you told me how well you did against Kakera, I was 0____o! Then I went and played a ton of friendlies the next day and I was doing well against Dabuz's Olimar and a bunch of ICs with Zelda. I feel like there is maybe a tad of untapped potential left here.

Also......the Japanese. nuff said.

I used more Zelda than I thought I was going in to be honest. 2 out of 4 in the first pool were all Zelda and then she was involved in some way in the other two. Second pool had involvement against Delta-Cod and Pitzer. Sheik did more heavy lifting in round two. Once I got knocked out, all friendlies were Zelda unless I was teaching about Sheik lol. I beat down some names with Zelda and it just made my day

 

[AlanHaTe]

I imagine it was kind of a disaster ._.

I hated that yesterday SF, UMvC, and Melee screwed the stream up... It was suposed to be a stream for Smash games and one for Traditional fighters but apparently something came wrong.

The only funny thing is that a lot of Melee players(or all?) now can't complain at Brawl anymore, it is said that Brawl matches are too campy and take forever. I may not be a genius or a scientist or anything but the Melee GF took more time than Brawl's GF and even more than Brawl's WF, LF and GF.

And talking about Melee I didn't know that Javi's skill was that good before this, but mad respect to him, I mean normally we think a lot of people look at us Mexicans like we can't be as good as other people at something, but he showed the exact opposite thing, and hearing the crowd cheering for him was like super cool. Too bad Waymas didn't go, he may have done the same thing but at Brawl u.u

 

[ぱみゅ]

Javi did amazingly well.
I mean, he got outplayed by all of the top3, but 4th place is a REALLY good spot.
And his match vs Dr.PeePee blew my mind.

Annd I'm not sure if Waymas could have done better, here in Mexico there are not many notable MKs (if anything, only DivA).

 

[AlanHaTe]

yeah but I think he could've done very good, at least better than any other Wario.

and well, like everyone from the North says Diva sucks, but he is indeed like the only decent MK here I think ._.

btw you banning MK on your tournaments?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Only because if I didn't, locals wouldn't assist....
IMO, they're salty cuz I'm taking high places on my own tournaments....

 

[AlanHaTe]

I'm doing one on feb's 1st weekend, and I made it MK legal and stuff, and yesterday one friend was kind of salty as I was beating his new ROB in teams with my kind of old MK and he told me "change the name of the tournament because we want MK banned and you don't" ._.

whatever, I'll just do it and whatever happens they're attendind as there are almost no tournaments here like ever, and probably Waymas will come, and if he comes, being it MK banned or not the outcome will ve the same...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Australia is banning MK despite the fact that Toon Link out performs MK here.

 

[Fuujin]

I have sooo much to share about MUs and all the really good players I was able to play but I want to wait until results to do shoutouts.

Some of the stuff though.

I played Illmatic again and got beat just as bad as last time, though I SDd one match It really wouldn't have made a difference, that MU is just terrible for Zelda.
I definitely say its still -3.

I played Mikehaze and Leon from France in MMs.
Leons marth is very aggressive so it was nice to see a different playstyle but that MU is really tough.
Marth can really be hard for Zelda offstage, even when recovering from above it's dangerous, Marth is almost as floaty as Zelda and his huge fast hitboxes make it hard to avoid getting hit.
Then you can't depend on lightning kicking him, his sword > Zelda's feet.
Leon also escaped u smash a few times, so it's actually very hard for Zelda to reliable kill.

I MMd trevonte and got wrecked, granted idk the match up well at all, Fox is just really...scary.

Got a few games with Chudat's Kirby, definatly not -1.

I vote for Olimar vs Zelda as the most one sided MU in the game.

Edit: and after playing mewtwoking I understand why it's -4 in MKs favor.

 

[Two-Ell]

lol that sounds like such a really hard weekend. Hopefully you were able to take something from all that. It was also nice meetin' ya x3

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I can love jump reliably.

God I hope next tourney I'm at I play on stream.

 

[Alacion]

I can love jump reliably.

God I hope next tourney I'm at I play on stream.

Nice work! Can you do the diagonal and drops yet? Those are even more "flashy."

@Fuu Yeah Zelda just doesn't deal with the high+ tiers very well at all. Even for a -2/-1, you really need some good MU experience before it actually gets to that ratio x_x

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I'm still working on it! But I want to have it mastered before Revival of Salt rolls around.

Been spending more and more time playing Melee lately though... YL just so much fun to use.

 

[Fuujin]

lol that sounds like such a really hard weekend. Hopefully you were able to take something from all that. It was also nice meetin' ya x3

You were the Peach I played before M2K right?

 

[Two-Ell]

nah I didn't get around to playing you. Did you forget what I look like? lol.

[collapse=picture]

I'm the black guy on the left
[/collapse]

 

[Pierce7d]

The doubles match with Riot is available... just find the 11 hour long video and it's at the end of one of the parts maybe the 3rd one. The commentary by Pierce (I think) on Zelda was inaccurate on many counts :/

As for Jigglypuff that's how she wins in my area too. Delfino, Brinstar, or more likely Halberd was used? I honestly never believed the matchup was even and that the matchup was -1 or worse. Once Puff has the % lead it's all over.

But yeah I think every Zelda was proud of her rep at Apex. If I wasn't such a scrub, had the money, and didn't have school I would have come.

How much Zelda did Ed use and was there anybody that was blown away by our character?

What did I say that you feel was inaccurate? I'm not really coming here to parry that claim, more as I am here to learn what you think I am wrong about, so I can improve my own Zelda. She is one of my favorite characters to play.

 

[Alacion]

Well for starters, when Zelda jumps it doesn't mean she's going for a kick or fingerbang... while her Nair is far from great it is decent (considering it's Zelda) and has many applications.

Zelda's up air is her best aerial? Not really (the best is arguable - some argue for nair and others for bair). Up air's hitboxes are small (severely decreased from Melee as well) but are transcendent and disjointed. It is also unreliable as well as all her other aerials minus Nair. Up air is also easily telegraphed and punished.

Despite Zelda's grab being slow, her grab is actually used often. And yes there are followups (you are right they are not reliable most of the time) especially at lower percents.

Here's a Down Throw follow up summary by MechaWave

[COLLAPSE="Click"]My testing of Zelda's dthrow shows these follow-ups. If the opponent DI's away from the move, Zelda cannot use any follow-ups, so reading is key.

This was tested with no DI, so if the opponent DI's upwards or backwards Zelda still has a follow-up advantage. Note that dthrow makes the opponent go behind her.

You can use Jab or Dtilt as a way to grab your opponent.

Dthrow → (buffer) Dash → Usmash → (buffer) Nair [36%-38% fresh, all hits connect]
*This will probably be your most used setup because of the range of Usmash/Nair will at least hit the opponent regardless of the DI.

Dthrow → (buffer) Walk → (buffer) Upward Ftilt → Usmash/Nair/Uair
Dthrow → (buffer) Walk/Dash → Fsmash
Dthrow → (buffer) Fair
Dthrow → Dash attack → Filt → Usmash/Nair

Dthrow → (DI'd up or no DI) Dash attack (sweet) → Usmash/Nair/Uair [50% fresh, all hits connect (with Usmash of choice)]
*This is the most damaging follow-up if you don't use Uair. It's also great for setting up some dtilts. That's a potential 0-70%+ right there!

Dthrow → (DI'd up or no DI) Dash attack (sour) (x1 or x2) → Ftilt → Usmash → Nair
Dthrow → (DI'd behind) (buffer) Bair or Ftilt

Against a Wall (like Rainbow Cruise)
Dthrow → Usmash → Nair → Usmash/Dsmash/Fair/Bair
Dthrow → Pivot → Pummel (x1) → Dthrow → Pummel (x1) → Nair
Dthrow → Dthrow → (buffer) Bair
Dthrow → (if DI'd up/behind) Fair/Bair/Nair
Dthrow → (if DI'd up/behind) Dsmash → Din's Fire

Zelda can even chain some characters with Dthrow.

Dthrow → (buffered) Pivot Dash Grab → Dthrow → whatever move
Still note if the opponent DI's away Zelda cannot chain.

There's many, many others because Zelda can take advantage. These follow-ups work best <15%. At higher percentages, you can use Dthrow as a way to land a KO move or just to make it easier for you to land something (the higher the percent the farther the opponent launches.) [/COLLAPSE]

At lower percentages, Zelda also has a up throw to up air combo (not guaranteed but easier to land).

None of Zelda's grabs come out at frame 13. Regular grab starts at 12, Dash grab starts at 11 and Pivot grab starts at 14.

Hope this helps~ Other than that though your commentary was solid, and better than I would have expected considering it's Zelda so major respect for that.

 

[Pierce7d]

Yes, once upon a time, I had over 70% of the frame data in the game (in versus mode) memorized, but those days are no longer. Forgive me.

I use Zelda's grab often. My favorite throw is forward throw, because it leads to resets and Uair. Since Zelda cannot combo from her throws, resets and easy read situations are awesome.

I find Uair to be very reliable. Not to say I don't think Bair and Fair are completely worthless moves, but I find improper usage of Uair to be a major flaw of most Zelda players.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Two-Ell, I love your scarf. lol

 

[Alacion]

Sorry if my attitude seemed condescending or anything, I didn't mean to sound arrogant so no apologizes are needed.

I'd like to hear your opinions on Up air, because while the knockback is the best out of all up airs in the game, I find it to be somewhat unreliable although I use it much more when I'm behind. I've never heard of a fthrow to up air so an explanation on that would be awesome.

 

[Two-Ell]

Thank you, a friend of mine made it for me. I really love it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Zelda's up air imo is her second best aerial. I think nair is her best only because it's her most reliable. Fair and bair require far too much precision and with Zelda being so floaty and... rofl in the air, it's silly.

Nair leads into up-smash or some sort of follow up on almost every character in the game, and the followups are surprisingly reliable.

Up air is slow, but having such a gigantic hitbox (wtf are you trying to say it's small for Courier? It's ZSS tier. :/) which does so much knockback is a powerful tool for pressuring. If the air dodge too early, they will die at lightning kick percentages, without the need to space so ridiculously. If they try to dair you, up air should always beat out/trade with almost anyone.

Up air isn't as punishable as people think it is, unless they're on the ground... In which case, why are you up air'ing? |:

Thank you, a friend of mine made it for me. I really love it.

Oh wow. That's so nice of them. ^___^

 

[Pierce7d]

One of my most common attack strings with Zelda is Dash Attack, Fthrow, Uair. After a low percent dash attack, the opponent will almost always block if still grounded, enabling a dash grab. After an Fthrow, most players will jump, to avoid being trapped on the ledge. Naturally, they will not double jump and aerial, because it's not the common habit. Their reflex will be "jump onto stage to avoid falling off the stage". This can be capitalized very easily. Hitting a fair would require intimate ability to predict jump timing, and they won't even be afraid of it, knowing that their jump will easily go over a Fair. However, since they will double jump and try to come back onstage, Uair will connect easily.

The opponent will not anticipate a Uair, because they were not initially above you, and they are going above you to avoid a follow-up and stay on stage. Reading this actually very common jump is typically quite safe, and very rewarding, as the opponent will not have the option to jump to avoid your landing trap.

Most top players refer to hitting the opponent out of their double jump as "the pro read", because it's one of the easiest ways to determine that the attacker understands high level reads, like reading and punishing a jump properly. Most mid-level players will not even acknowledge this double jump as a bad habit, unless it is pointed out to them.

 

[Alacion]

Eh okay looking at the hitbox thread I admit it's rather large. Lots of ending lag so if you're read or you mess up you can be punished. Not only that, but Up air needs "preparation" meaning it's hard to surprise people with. I imagine in most circumstances, the opponent generally does not need to be directly above Zelda and should know better. Perhaps a rising up air can be a surprise but unless you can't help it (eg. Snake recovering) nobody should ever be above Zelda and fall victim to her up air.

Once you surprise the opponent with stuff like a rising up air or stage walk-off up air, or do a "drop off the ledge and up air," it should never happen again.

And no I don't throw out up airs on the ground...


Interesting read about the double jump reads... should try that out someday

 

[Pierce7d]

Also, the sheer threat of Uair means that your opponent might be forced to airdodge. Naturally, this makes them easy to punish . . . with Uair. Now, many characters outclass Zelda in aerial mobility, but when used correctly, you should not be punished for choosing Uair. You are probably using it when your opponent has the abliity to Fast Fall Airdodge past you, in which case, you're doing it wrong.

Link me to a good video of a Zelda, and I will see if I can point out a few examples of where Uair might be good.

 

[Alacion]

I never (and if I do, very rarely) get punished by using up air, lol. I wasn't really speaking for myself

Check out the Video thread, more notable players are Ed and Riot.

 

[Pierce7d]

Riot is pretty decent, I've never heard of Ed. My favorite Zelda player is a European Zelda whose name eludes me, but I'm sure you've heard of him (or her I suppose)

I have watched plenty of videos in my day, but I want you to pick a video.

 

[Alacion]

Jujux is probably the guy you're thinking about.

Here is the most recent video that was posted. (It's one of Ed's)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-qQeTVuhko

 

[Pierce7d]

Jujux is probably the guy you're thinking about.

Here is the most recent video that was posted. (It's one of Ed's)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-qQeTVuhko

Okay, I'm about a minute in, and I don't really like Ed's Zelda all that much.

At 57 seconds or so, he goes for a Uair, this is easy to avoid. The opponent is already above you, you jumped. This announces intent of a follow-up. Now, a higher level player would probably realize "Hmm, my Uair is slow, so maybe I'll just jump to bait, and then punish the airdodge with something else." In this case, he is too low to Uair after the airdodge, so a Fair or a FF into ground move (I would prefer Dtilt into regrab). Fortunately, GDX did not cast Fair to catch the banana, so it allowed Ed to get some silly combo with the Nair, but against a better opponent, that Nair would've been blocked and punished, or he would've gotten hit first.

After watching the entire video, it seems apparent that neither of these players knows the MU, and both are upper-mid level players at the very best. I'll record a video of me playing Zelda, and see if I can't have it uploaded.

 

[Rizen]

nah I didn't get around to playing you. Did you forget what I look like? lol.

[collapse=picture]

I'm the black guy on the left
[/collapse]

I have to say that pic's awesome. If someone asks what smash tournaments are like that is the perfect pic to show.

I'm not photogenic at all; my smiles always look forced and awkward.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Okay, I'm about a minute in, and I don't really like Ed's Zelda all that much.

At 57 seconds or so, he goes for a Uair, this is easy to avoid. The opponent is already above you, you jumped. This announces intent of a follow-up. Now, a higher level player would probably realize "Hmm, my Uair is slow, so maybe I'll just jump to bait, and then punish the airdodge with something else." In this case, he is too low to Uair after the airdodge, so a Fair or a FF into ground move (I would prefer Dtilt into regrab). Fortunately, GDX did not cast Fair to catch the banana, so it allowed Ed to get some silly combo with the Nair, but against a better opponent, that Nair would've been blocked and punished, or he would've gotten hit first.

After watching the entire video, it seems apparent that neither of these players knows the MU, and both are upper-mid level players at the very best. I'll record a video of me playing Zelda, and see if I can't have it uploaded.

Ouch much Pierce?

 

[Mocha]

lmao, Ed's one of the best Zeldas around atm

Oh and Ed, I keep forgetting to ask you this, but where did you get that piccy on your avatar?
Pierce, please do record a video of your Zelda when you get a chance. I'm lacking inspiration atm, and watching videos is one of the few things that do inspire me

 

[Pierce7d]

Ouch much Pierce?

I apologize if I offended you, but I said nothing offensive. Keep in mind that I have a very broad perspective of the game, and impressing me is an extremely difficult thing to do. I actually have lots of experience with most of the top players, and you are simply not on that level. However, anyone can improve, you simply have plateaus to overcome. When I analyze gameplay, I don't just compare you to the small pool of other Zelda players, I compare you to ALL players. Striving to be the best Zelda is a shallow and fruitless goal IMO.

tl;dr
I don't care if he's "one of the best Zelda's around". I analyzed his gameplay and decision making ability against high level players, and I do not feel he is one. Certainly not at the Diddy Kong MU at any rate.

Props to being able to Glide Toss with Zelda though. I can't do it, ROFL.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Glide tossing is easy for every character.

It's all knowing what frame the momentum is greatest on.

Lucario GTing is fun. Useless despite its distance. But fun.

 

[Fuujin]

nah I didn't get around to playing you. Did you forget what I look like? lol.

[collapse=picture]

I'm the black guy on the left
[/collapse]

Noo Im just really bad with remembering peoples names, then attaching it to their face.
Nice to meet you though.

 

[Fuujin]

Am I the only one who does sour spotted d air -> d tilt -> up smash/up tilt?
It's a legit kill set up and I feel like I pulled it off dozens of times at Apex.
It should be in at least ONE of my replays, assuming any of them even get uploaded other than the ones where I got wrecked.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Sour spotted DAir is one of my favourite setups period. I've always felt it was heavily underrated.

 

[GodAtHand]

Sour spot dair is actually great when your opponents are at higher percents. You get a lot of frame advantage from a move that is typically just not good. A remember doing that to Mikey L once at SNES in a friendly and he was like... why couldn't I move?

I unfortunately got no such setups at APEX though. The coolest thing I did with dair was a sourspot off the stage to a footstool and I don't even remember if it killed him.

 

[Fuujin]

I love sour spotted D air, it's somewhat useful.
Even though it's still pretty bad, I love how long it stays out.
It's actually very nice in some match ups like Falco.

D air is a big part of my game.
I know I had the set up in one of the matches with Mikehaze but I tripped in the middle of it before I got to land the up smash :/