Zero Suit Samus Questions & Answers

[ph00tbag]

What are ZSS's best approaching options?

you can approach with nair and uair if you space them perfectly, but usually they're not worth it.

Is camping with ZSS ever very effective, and if so how?

Camping bairs and empty short-hops is a popular strategy. Dtilt is also a good way to create space.

Is MK the only character ZSS can grab release CG? If not who else?

She can grab release infinite Squirtle and Wario, I'm not sure who else she can CG, though.

 

[Nefarious B]

What are ZSS's best approaching options?
Is camping with ZSS ever very effective, and if so how?
Is MK the only character ZSS can grab release CG? If not who else?

I may have more later on. Thanks!

1. Bair, nair, running powershield, uair, SHAD uair, SHFF AD jab crossover, etc
2. There are a few characters where side b and paralyzer camping works really well. Running away wario-style works decently enough for us against slower opponents. I also have a theory that we can air camp with a suitpiece in hand to cover our hole below us against some characters, though I'll admit no one's really tried this in a tourney match including me. Check out the suitpiece thread for my full thoughts on that.
3. you can check the thread in our directory about grab release combos to show everything you can do out of one. there's also a thread on our fthrow CG and which characters it works on.

 

[ThreeSided]

2. There are a few characters where side b and paralyzer camping works really well. Running away wario-style works decently enough for us against slower opponents. I also have a theory that we can air camp with a suitpiece in hand to cover our hole below us against some characters, though I'll admit no one's really tried this in a tourney match including me. Check out the suitpiece thread for my full thoughts on that.

Speaking of which, we've got to get that thing active again. It just sorta died on us.

 

[zeldspazz]

Thanks you guys!

 

[earla]

who are the best zero suit samus players to watch?

which aerial do you use for momentum cancelling with zss?

what are the essential techniques/combos to master when beginning to learn zss?

cheers

 

[NickRiddle]

who Are The Best Zero Suit Samus Players To Watch?
we're All Terrible, Do Not Listen To Any Suggestions. (snakeee, Dazwa, People Say Me)

Which Aerial Do You Use For Momentum Cancelling With Zss?
uair

What Are The Essential Techniques/combos To Master When Beginning To Learn Zss?
recovery!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also, Spacing And Patience.
And Not Using F-smash.

Cheers

:3 :3

 

[noradseven]

who are the best zero suit samus players to watch?

which aerial do you use for momentum cancelling with zss?

what are the essential techniques/combos to master when beginning to learn zss?

cheers

In all seriousness I would start with watching vids of dazwa he is probably the best person to watch first because his play style is easier to understand and more straightforward or at least the vids form 3months ago and earlier were, while snakeee/riddles have a more confusing playstyle and many of the things they do will not make sense to you(or be outdated metagame lol), until you really know ZSS and the matchup.

I see MK main, basicly our u-air MKs but better but without 6 jumps roll with that, and do some combos/traps. Also play some games never using over B or d-smash(to not get in stupid habits), and try not to use grab too much...and yeah don't use f-smash unless ya want to be crazy pro like me

 

[earla]

thanks.

got links to most recent dawza vids to study?

what are zss best/worst matchups?
(which would i need mk for?)

do you generally save your side b to ko? and space it on fresh stocks as well because it will have refreshed by the time u've got opponent to ko %.

how is zss in teams?

 

[noradseven]

Falco for sures

Olimar/Lucario/Pit are the other problem characters but these vary depending upon how the players play especially olimar/lucario(WE WRECK STANDARD LUCARIO PLAY), pit is p. much always bad.

Team starfox is not a fun fight for us despite our lol infintes on them and it would probably be easier to go lol MK on the other 2 as well.

There are a few matches such as diddy/snake you gotta be wary of as in they are very weird matches and you will need to have alot of experance at them before you stop getting totally wrecked at them and get closer to the numbers we have.

Other than that possibly personal preference but everything else is close to even or posistive so...

Be warned alot of our matches are even or evenish even against mid/low tier we got a few slightly negitive matchups and alot of even/barely posistive ones, aka don't get all O_o if you just lost to luigi or pokemon trainer.

 

[earla]

best options OoS?

i notice i try to jab and characters can shield grab the 3rd hit? like snake?

important combos to learn?

links to most recent dazwa vids?

 

[noradseven]

best options OoS?

i notice i try to jab and characters can shield grab the 3rd hit? like snake?

important combos to learn?

links to most recent dazwa vids?

OSS options are bad,standing d-tilt(slightly tilt controller down and press A is fast and is high invunerable).
Jab is 3 frames faster than standing d-tilt but its hard to followup best option is to crouch cancel after the first hit.
pivoting after shield adds 2 more frames to either of the above actions.
U-tilt is 1 frame faster than standing d-tilt has a hit box right on top off us AND BEHIND US and good followup the problem its terrible on whiff/block and will start to be baited.
Down B is a risky escape but it gives us invulnerability on frame 1 and can be used to punish moves with slow recovery meant to push us back.
Then you have the standard f-roll(invun on frame 4 I think),pivot f-roll(invun on frame 6 I think), SS(invun on frame 4 again I think).
Also PS standing d-tilt beats out alot of stuff try it.

Frame is 1/60th of a second...

Combos learn how to link u-air into itself if you hit the back-top part it doesn't launch as high and makes it easier/possible to true combo in more spots.
Other important ones are d-smash,down B(spike), and finishing u-air chains with b-air/f-air.

If your just starting out anything from dazwa that has the stamp 2009 on it will be a good place to start just don't think end all is all for any of the gameplay styles change alot and its hard to really explain but you definatly need to learn the basic b-air spacing and mindgames its critical play and dazwa used to possibly still does p.much solely focus on that, and some other basics.

Extra notes about jab p. much the entire cast can punish jab ON HIT, unless you hit them starting in the air, however its still crazy fast and while jab, crouch cancel d-tilt isn't totally safe it is very hard to react to.

edit: if anything I say confuses you just ask, I sometimes use weird terminology.

 

[Zero]

Man, Earl you should IM me, and invite Nix in, we'll give you mad ZSS tips. (H)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Does anyone else think our jab is probably one of the worst moves in the game now?

Brawl is moving in a direction where only guaranteed punishers/followups are very good and jab doesn't guarantee anything but 3% damage. Discuss.

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Isn't there enough stun on Jab to start a dash away. To at least get safe and out of a situation where people are just a little to close?

 

[Rybaia]

Jab 'll probably be used to stop some other moves or followups..
Or Just to trick the opponent with some mix up during the jab combo that the chars have...

 

[Nefarious B]

Jab is frame 1. That's huge, even if it doesn't combo

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It can be used in varying ways to avoid punishing.

If someone holds shield you can safely jump/run away
If someone does not you can jab him anyways.

Maindgaem

 

[Zero]

Does anyone else think our jab is probably one of the worst moves in the game now?

Brawl is moving in a direction where only guaranteed punishers/followups are very good and jab doesn't guarantee anything but 3% damage. Discuss.

Jab is good against characters who don't have a fast enough punishing attack, or as a good mixup. It's also very good against aerial opponents for extra damage.

But if you're fighting Marth/MK, yeah it's crap.

Oh yeah, good interrupt against slow attacks/reads/some meatys.

 

[noradseven]

Jab is good against characters who don't have a fast enough punishing attack, or as a good mixup. It's also very good against aerial opponents for extra damage.

But if you're fighting Marth/MK, yeah it's crap.

Oh yeah, good interrupt against slow attacks/reads/some meatys.

uhhh what, you guys do know 1 frame means it stuffs alot of MKs stuff right, and it does true combo air bound oppenents, its also useful against his up B I teleport though the ground recovery and stuff. IDK I kinda like the move as an AA against the short hoppies.

 

[Zero]

Well to be honest, I haven't tried much jabbing on MK so I'm probably wrong. I'm just assuming MK upb has stupid invincibility and can just be done out of grounded jab1, like Marth's DS. It's pretty gey.
But yeah, I use it as AA too.

 

[Nefarious B]

I'm pretty sure that A: Shuttle Loop only has invincibility when grounded B: It's only one frame of invincibility (1st frame)

 

[Zero]

Yeah, so it's like Dolphin Slash in that regard.

 

[Nefarious B]

DS has 5 frames of invincibility, hitting on frame 5, and I'm pretty sure it's invincible in the air as well as grounded because Marth can DI to the side of nado then up b out.

 

[noradseven]

MK up B has 3 frames of inviciblilty(only on the ground), that lasts from frame 1-3, marths has more but im not sure how long but I know it starts on frame 2.

 

[Zero]

I still dont' think you can DS out of jab1 in the air though. Played a Marth extensively the other day and I didn't encounter it.

 

[earla]

what chars can you f-throw chain grab and to what %?

(+ what was that thing zero_ mentioned to me where on fast fallers you can bait spotdodge after the f-throw = d-smash? which characters are fast fallers?

what infinites does zss have - wario, rob, fox???

cheers

 

[noradseven]

what chars can you f-throw chain grab and to what %?

(+ what was that thing zero_ mentioned to me where on fast fallers you can bait spotdodge after the f-throw = d-smash? which characters are fast fallers?

what infinites does zss have - wario, rob, fox???

cheers

not sure on f-throw chain grab I rarely grab with ZSS to begin with.

As far as baiting spot dodges like everyone playing us is so used to blocking a u-air, if you shorthop early and fastfall,d-smash you can catch alot of people on landing with d-smash owned :D.

wario none, some long chain grabs and dash attack locks though.

Rob we got the legendary 999% infinte, d-smash, headtap(jump off his head),buffered d-air x infinty.

Fox, d-smash,walk forward, fox pops, d-smash him during his landing lag its like 4 frame timing I think, but it changes it also works on falco/wolf(to some extent).

Dash locking is p. cool too, like on characters like snake it works from like 50-100%ish which owns cause chain grabbing works from like 0-55% or something lol.

 

[earla]

yeah dash locking + %'s?

anyone got SOLID info%'s on all these cg's infinites etc, al chars?

 

[Nefarious B]

Check our resource center, both threads are there with full info on all the characters.

We also have a 0-death on Fox, infinites on Wario and ROB, and dsmash chains on sheik, falco, and wolf that net around 85% if you combine it with a DA lock at the end (it puts them at the perfect percent and at the end of the stage)

 

[phi1ny3]

Does anyone else think our jab is probably one of the worst moves in the game now?

Brawl is moving in a direction where only guaranteed punishers/followups are very good and jab doesn't guarantee anything but 3% damage. Discuss.

Theoretically jab stuff is usually crap unless it's Ike/falco, but jabs that are SDIable still have function. There's a lot to be gained from conditioning/resetting with jab1, at least I've seen tons of application with Lucario (jab1 -> strutterstepped fsmash when they spotdodge), I'm sure ZSS has stuff as well, it's just not guaranteed or seen as theoretically an advantageous position which imo is wrong.

Also I don't remember who said this, (I think it was you SFP) but ZSS v. Lucario being 70:30 is pretty laughable, considering the source of the argument has been beaten by 3 good lucarios in tourney most of the time, one that doesn't even main him (although pretty beastly at him I must add). Prior to this was the belief that Lucario wrecks ZSS offstage, which isn't really true, especially since ZSS gets past AS in recovering and can negate our fair WoP advantages thanks to downB.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hROuT03mIj8&feature=sub


Hey guys I heard SideB and Dsmash are pretty good moves. My favorite Dsmash follow-up is fsmash! But only the backwards hitbox, it's better!

 

[Zero]

I quite like his dash movement. Very methodical and it resulted in a lot of well spaced dsmashes hitting. Other then that, warui ne.

 

[Zero]

No one spotdodges ZSS grab, they just grab it. :<

 

[phi1ny3]

Oh, so jab1 doesn't result in any solid frame advantage when used by itself?

That does suck

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Oh, so jab1 doesn't result in any solid frame advantage when used by itself?

That does suck

No. Jabs 1 and 2 have zero hitstun because they have no KBG. Jab 1 comes out on frame 1, jab 2 on frame 2, and jab 3 on frame 3. The opponent is still "stunned" (airborne, basically) for 1 frame after jab 1, so they are unable to PS jab 2. There are two frames of dead space between 2 and 3 that allow for all kinds of shenanegans (most characters can PS and punish, many like Peach can DI down and jab us, squirtle can just jab us out WITHOUT DI).

Jab 1 is not good. It interrupts some combos and chains, and has a use in that regard. It's also broken on light characters but most light characters are bad or we win those matchups for other reasons (ROB, TL, Game and Watch, Kirby?, Jigglypuff, etc). It's also fun to jab 1 falcos who are recovering and then edgehog when they're dumb and don't see it coming.

It's otherwise a bad move. ZSS' jab is unsafe on hit. On hit. You have to mindgame to make the move function at all. It's like a 1 frame mario d-tilt.

As for the 7/3 Lucario match-up, you have to keep in mind that:

1. Many of my thoughts and opinions (like everyone else here) come from third-party sources (better players than me) that I've talked to about match-ups. Snakeee told me he things Lucario is 65/35 ZSS, and I've seen him play and beat good Lucarios pretty badly so I believe him.

2. 7/3 is also really only "soft counter." The Brawl community acts like a 7/3 match-up is unwinnable and most communities don't see it that way (I don't either). My 7/3 is your 6/4.

 

[Fire!]

I'm need to make sure, is ZSS' down air good for canceling momentum, or should I go with the fastest aerial. I'm also thinking in terms of Toon Link/Sonic's down air.

 

[phi1ny3]

Therein lies the problem, I don't even think it's near disadvantageous for Lucario, AS is really good against ZSS, and yes, it DOES matter how high percent he gets, it does more than knockback and damage, it makes options that previously weren't worth the input definite and decisive in the outcome, plus aura makes Lucario's moves safer on block.

If you mean good Lucarios like Arrancar and the local ones in the area, those aren't even close to the top of the metagame. Snakeee has lost to three of arguably the best (Ksizzle, Trela, and Zucco, I want to see how Junebug/Lee Martin do if they do play), which are the highest level of play pretty much, that being said, defeating lucarios who play dumb with suit pieces and don't tech upB traps are far different than playing Lucarios who are much better. I'm not saying these Lucarios are terrible, but there's definitely a gap between levels, sort of like the likes of Pierce/Kadaj being compared to NEO/MikeHAZE to a lower extent imo.

But you know, it's up for opinion.

I do agree with the idea that ratios are definitely weird in this community, I've realized why they are that way though. When one looks at a MU as a tool comparison as well as chances of winning, it pulls a little more sense and explains the diversification of numbers, because in looking only at the plain chances of winning, they become a very slippery slope after arguably 40:60.

And wow jab really does suck lol.

 

[shlike]

Therein lies the problem, I don't even think it's near disadvantageous for Lucario, AS is really good against ZSS, and yes, it DOES matter how high percent he gets, it does more than knockback and damage, it makes options that previously weren't worth the input definite and decisive in the outcome, plus aura makes Lucario's moves safer on block.

If you mean good Lucarios like Arrancar and the local ones in the area, those aren't even close to the top of the metagame. Snakeee has lost to three of arguably the best (Ksizzle, Trela, and Zucco, I want to see how Junebug/Lee Martin do if they do play), which are the highest level of play pretty much, that being said, defeating lucarios who play dumb with suit pieces and don't tech upB traps are far different than playing Lucarios who are much better. I'm not saying these Lucarios are terrible, but there's definitely a gap between levels, sort of like the likes of Pierce/Kadaj being compared to NEO/MikeHAZE to a lower extent imo.

But you know, it's up for opinion.

I do agree with the idea that ratios are definitely weird in this community, I've realized why they are that way though. When one looks at a MU as a tool comparison as well as chances of winning, it pulls a little more sense and explains the diversification of numbers, because in looking only at the plain chances of winning, they become a very slippery slope after arguably 40:60.

And wow jab really does suck lol.

i know people say that friendlies dont matter, that being said here this goes.

I've played both trela and lee martin's lucario.

I went pretty much even with them winning some matches and losing some matches as well, that being said absolutely nothing leads me to believe that zss beats lucario 7:3. I think the matchup is either dead even or slightly in zss's favor.

 

[noradseven]

I think lucario ZSS is 6:4 lucario's favor if not 6.5:3.5, but people here tell me im wrong in this case alot .

I'm need to make sure, is ZSS' down air good for canceling momentum, or should I go with the fastest aerial. I'm also thinking in terms of Toon Link/Sonic's down air.

mash u-air as fast as you can :D.

 

[phi1ny3]

i know people say that friendlies dont matter, that being said here this goes.

I've played both trela and lee martin's lucario.

I went pretty much even with them winning some matches and losing some matches as well, that being said absolutely nothing leads me to believe that zss beats lucario 7:3. I think the matchup is either dead even or slightly in zss's favor.

Yeah, I think it's pretty even.
And I'm sure it's not an advantage for Lucario either lol, ZSS bair and uair are really crazy in this MU.