Roxas1988
Smash Journeyman
Ok lets say im up against a guy who loves to abuse spotdodges and at the same time loves to shield ALOT what should b my approach then?
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Zero Suit Samus Questions & Answers
- Thread starter phanna
- Start date
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
a properly spaced sideB
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Side-b is NEVER the right answer.
Roxas1988
Smash Journeyman
Why is that? Side-B sounds like a nice pressured way of approaching.
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
Not even for punishing mistakes or baiting your opponent? Just because a move has bad start-up lag doesn't make it useless (Peach's Fair is a good example of this).
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Baiting with side-b is punishable on reaction. You can use it to punish laggy moves, but why wouldn't you dsmash that?
Roxas1988
Smash Journeyman
Well you can't really bait with a D-smash now can you? The side B would be for you to force them to approach and from that no matter how close they get an u-tilt right out of that can stop any approach from behind or the front.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Coming soon to a ZSS board near you, "ZSS' Triple Entente of Failure: Why D-smash, Side B, and Paralyzer are virtually useless and the new revolution of the metagame"
Too long of a title huh? Suggestions?
Too long of a title huh? Suggestions?
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Side+B should be saved for it's kill potential.
Down smash should be used to punish, but approaching with it?
I should start playing like a scrub from now on. Walk up to people, yes, WALKING, and just throw a down smash or two out there and see what happens. Remember guys, the noobs who think getting a downsmash in is EVERYTHING; they're obvious doing it right.
Neutral+B seems somewhat safe though.
Down smash should be used to punish, but approaching with it?
I should start playing like a scrub from now on. Walk up to people, yes, WALKING, and just throw a down smash or two out there and see what happens. Remember guys, the noobs who think getting a downsmash in is EVERYTHING; they're obvious doing it right.
Neutral+B seems somewhat safe though.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I still use Paralyzer and some dsmash but I'm trying to break the habit.
Side-b is just bad though. Baaaaaad.
Side-b is just bad though. Baaaaaad.
noradseven
Smash Lord
I don't really use para at all I use d-smash and over B to punish dumb mistakes, like MK up B hahaha.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Plasma whip....usually is safe there. D-smash is no longer safe for edgetuarding against a lot of characters. For a move that can often be powershielded on reaction you are going to get punished a lot. Not to mention good range characters like Marth and Metaknight will still be able to hit you regardless.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
This "Dsmash paralyzer and side b are absolutely 100% useless" bandwagon is getting pretty rediculous guys. They're not uber like everyone used to think, they're situational moves that are really excellent or really ****ty depending on the matchup.
And to call it "the advancement of the metagame" is pretty lulsy; we've all known for a while that spamming those moves is a pretty sure way to get ***** by good opponents. Just be tactical with them, there's no need to write off these moves as terrible just because they're no longer at the core of our gameplay.
And to call it "the advancement of the metagame" is pretty lulsy; we've all known for a while that spamming those moves is a pretty sure way to get ***** by good opponents. Just be tactical with them, there's no need to write off these moves as terrible just because they're no longer at the core of our gameplay.
The answer: don't spam it. Toss it out there to limit options. Don't use it in a situation where it will get powershielded. I'm not saying it's one of the greatest moves ever. I'm saying it's useful. I'm saying its reward pretty massively outweighs the risks, given its one of a very small number of moves in the game that can guarantee a follow-up KO. When your opponent is on the ledge, or getting near the ledge, the worst they can usually do about this move is ledge-hop an aerial or get-up attack. Sure, some characters have better answers than others, but risk-taking is usually your only chance in those kinds of match-ups anyway.
What I'm working from here is that ZSS is not an inherently safe character to begin with. She has few defensive options, and she has no reliable answer for shields. She has no frame traps that are easy to set up. You have to take the occasional risk with her if you're going to win, and if you take a risk like a dsmash and land it, you can get a lot of reward for that.
The point is, don't knock dsmash. It can be a dangerous move, but that's ZSS: high risk, high reward. Go big or go home.
I'm just rambling, now. But seriously, if you only play using ZSS's safe moves, you're going to end up with a very stale bair.
Snakeee
Smash Master
You're wrong, and have no idea how simply it is dealt with now over here. Sorry, that's the truth now. I'll try to get some new vids showing the new style when I can. I'll just say that things are a LOT different now. It's pretty new adaptations so I don't expect anyone to know really.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
Wavebounce or die trying.
It'd be nice to know what people are doing that so thoroughly beats this move that it's completely useless now, because I think that would have huge ramifications throughout the metagame as a whole, not just on ZSS's metagame.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
If you powershield dsmash or side-b you can grab zss because the cooldown time is ridiculous, I'm pretty sure.
I wouldn't make the thread until you have the videos, because I'm a little skeptical myself. In a game of mix-ups and baiting, move diversity is always a good thing
, so I'll just have to wait and see.
It's too bad ZSS isn't a Zelda character, you could've called the thread "The Triforce of Failure: D-smash, Paralyzer, and Plasma Whip." I don't have a suggestion though <_<
except implementing F-smash
It's too bad ZSS isn't a Zelda character, you could've called the thread "The Triforce of Failure: D-smash, Paralyzer, and Plasma Whip." I don't have a suggestion though <_<
Plasma Whip, you can do it with time to spare, meaning if you're not in range you can run into range and do it. Dsmash you can do it, but just barely, meaning you have to do a standing grab, and you have to be in range to begin with.
Roxas1988
Smash Journeyman
I was playing my friends Zss which was a pretty good match for my sonic, of course i was winning
, but he kept using the Dtilt to try and set me up for the bair. I thouught it was an ok strategy but, when he used the side b i found it easy to shield and punish, as well as the dash attack. I mean the side b is always good for spacing but if you don't have a certain amount of space between you its just so easy to punish and rack up damage fast. I find the Dsmash one of the most annoying moves to go against.
, but he kept using the Dtilt to try and set me up for the bair. I thouught it was an ok strategy but, when he used the side b i found it easy to shield and punish, as well as the dash attack. I mean the side b is always good for spacing but if you don't have a certain amount of space between you its just so easy to punish and rack up damage fast. I find the Dsmash one of the most annoying moves to go against.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Over B and d-smash are there to punish mistakes :D. like if a pika d-smash's and you get hit by it you can seriously DI out tech it and d-smash before his move ends...
Also over B punish's some retarted approach methods such as a whiffed MK up B is a free over B if you react early enough hell so is a PSed one, but still its more of a matter of preventing them from pulling the **** because once they know the match they are terrified.
d-smash is weird at extreme range its safe in most matches and its low recovery time means you can use the thing as ****ing bait, for something Intel-gent, I am going to have to post some vids but I only use the d-smash/over B in specific certain stances aka I never really just spam them I use them when I know you can't do **** about it, but even then its incredibly rare to see things occur outside of me edge guarding.
Also they can both be used for some nasty dodge traps, applying tager 720 meta game to d-smash O_o.
Also over B punish's some retarted approach methods such as a whiffed MK up B is a free over B if you react early enough hell so is a PSed one, but still its more of a matter of preventing them from pulling the **** because once they know the match they are terrified.
d-smash is weird at extreme range its safe in most matches and its low recovery time means you can use the thing as ****ing bait, for something Intel-gent, I am going to have to post some vids but I only use the d-smash/over B in specific certain stances aka I never really just spam them I use them when I know you can't do **** about it, but even then its incredibly rare to see things occur outside of me edge guarding.
Also they can both be used for some nasty dodge traps, applying tager 720 meta game to d-smash O_o.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Side+B, I only use that from a short hop while approaching for shield pressuring. At least it provides more range for the main hitbox at the tip. It has a slow cooldown time, but for a character to buffer a grab from a shield at that distance? That's not usually a factor. Down smash has a lot of range for spacing, so to get shield grabbed out of that? It somewhat depends on the distance you perform it from.
Not saying either can't be punished with a grab, but the only things you really have to look out for is stupid attacks with speed and range (Ex. Wolf's Forward Smash, Meta's Shuttle Loop).
Not saying either can't be punished with a grab, but the only things you really have to look out for is stupid attacks with speed and range (Ex. Wolf's Forward Smash, Meta's Shuttle Loop).
mountain_tiger
Smash Champion
How do you guys go about using armour pieces? Whenever I keep them on screen, I always end up getting ***** by them, so nowadays I tend to throw them away, perhaps keeping one if it's someone really big and bulky like King Dedede.
I need to practice more...
I need to practice more...
noradseven
Smash Lord
NOOOOOOOOOO, items are our savior, but seriously watch some diddy play (armor piece drop/down toss can act similar to a nanner), and some good peach play you will learn a good bit about item control.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
I usually throw 1 away, as 3 is insanely hard to manage for me atm. I've done it before, and it's ****, but hard, **** hard.
Controlling 2 armor pieces should be a piece of cake, on the other hand. If you're not using 1 of your pieces try to keep it in the air at all times, to limit options and to (more importantly) increase lifespan.
DONT PICK UP PIECES WITH DA
Controlling 2 armor pieces should be a piece of cake, on the other hand. If you're not using 1 of your pieces try to keep it in the air at all times, to limit options and to (more importantly) increase lifespan.
DONT PICK UP PIECES WITH DA
noradseven
Smash Lord
yeah kinda waste one of the armor pieces early in a way to agressive assult and hold on to those last 2 and like camp the very last one when thats all you got left.I usually throw 1 away, as 3 is insanely hard to manage for me atm. I've done it before, and it's ****, but hard, **** hard.
Controlling 2 armor pieces should be a piece of cake, on the other hand. If you're not using 1 of your pieces try to keep it in the air at all times, to limit options and to (more importantly) increase lifespan.
DONT PICK UP PIECES WITH DA
I have more of a problem with d-tilt Im like **** there is an item at my feet I can't punish with d-tilt grrrrrrr. at least dash attack still comes out.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Items ****, you really need to learn how to use them to take advantage of our character because it can a lot of times mean atleast 1/2 a stock to even a full stock lead by the time they're gone.
Like, at Active Gamers I played a really good norcal peach named Sky', and I'm pretty sure it was 20% on my first stock to 0% on his second. I feel like items shut down peach particularly well though because of how she likes to approach. He still ended up beating me though by pulling a bomb and killed me at 40% lol, that's life.
Like, at Active Gamers I played a really good norcal peach named Sky', and I'm pretty sure it was 20% on my first stock to 0% on his second. I feel like items shut down peach particularly well though because of how she likes to approach. He still ended up beating me though by pulling a bomb and killed me at 40% lol, that's life.
MJG
Smash Hero
What are good/bad stages for ZSS to play on?
noradseven
Smash Lord
RC/norfair are always good, BF/defino/brinstar are often good basically we like platforms in most matches, FD/jungle are normally terrible but occasionally arn't too bad.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I feel that Battlefield is her best all around stage by a large margin. It's a lot more obvious now that my platform juggle game got way better.
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
IMO brinstar is her best stage, followed closely by BF. Snakeee you need to get some new vids up so we can check out what you're doing differently, I want to see your new playstyle in action.
Marth is one of the few matchups I like FD on, lots of room to run around and maneuver helps greatly in my experience. Marth is kinda hard to CP though cause he's so similar to us
Marth is one of the few matchups I like FD on, lots of room to run around and maneuver helps greatly in my experience. Marth is kinda hard to CP though cause he's so similar to us
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I'm the only one who hates BF vs. most people, and loves FD.
I guess I'm behind the metagame.
I guess I'm behind the metagame.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
I don't even have a favorite stage with zero : (
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Battlefield is certainly her best neutral stage. It's a small stage with platforms that allow her use her air game to it's fullest potential. Due to it's size, KOs are relatively easy. Anyone who knows how to use her air game would most likely choose Battlefield over any other neutral.
Nefarious B is right as well; Brinstar is a small stage as well that ZSS can control fairly easily. It's just a risky stage overall though, since she CAN get wrecked on it if you don't watch out. Characters with high kill potential can destroy her on it if you slip up even once. Hell, Dedede can just stand on the top platform and swat a Utilt and kill at percents around 40-45. That usually isn't the case though.
- - - -
Against Marth, I wouldn't recommend Battlefield, in all honesty. Although Battlefield is a good stage for ZSS, Marth can simply take control of it much easier. With his speed and ranging aerials, as well as his grab game to recovery punishing... it's far too good of a stage for him.
Final Destination offers more range for retaliation and the ability to punish. Either way, he's still going to have his Fair approach, but it'd be best not to give him an edge with a stage that offers a lot of platforms. He can use them much better than we can.
Nefarious B is right as well; Brinstar is a small stage as well that ZSS can control fairly easily. It's just a risky stage overall though, since she CAN get wrecked on it if you don't watch out. Characters with high kill potential can destroy her on it if you slip up even once. Hell, Dedede can just stand on the top platform and swat a Utilt and kill at percents around 40-45. That usually isn't the case though.
- - - -
Against Marth, I wouldn't recommend Battlefield, in all honesty. Although Battlefield is a good stage for ZSS, Marth can simply take control of it much easier. With his speed and ranging aerials, as well as his grab game to recovery punishing... it's far too good of a stage for him.
Final Destination offers more range for retaliation and the ability to punish. Either way, he's still going to have his Fair approach, but it'd be best not to give him an edge with a stage that offers a lot of platforms. He can use them much better than we can.
Roxas1988
Smash Journeyman
Is the her D-tilt a really good setup move and if so what good follow ups are their?
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Yes, her down tilt is amazing.
Though up tilt has much more range and sends opponents straight upward, it's horrible cool down makes follow ups difficult. Down tilt is her fastest tilt, and sends opponents vertically (however it's possible they'll go up at a slight angle with DI). Either way, you can easily follow up with a rising up air after it, since it has low knock back and little cool down time. Sometimes, you can even chase them with an up smash at lower percents. That punishes air dodges pretty well.
Though up tilt has much more range and sends opponents straight upward, it's horrible cool down makes follow ups difficult. Down tilt is her fastest tilt, and sends opponents vertically (however it's possible they'll go up at a slight angle with DI). Either way, you can easily follow up with a rising up air after it, since it has low knock back and little cool down time. Sometimes, you can even chase them with an up smash at lower percents. That punishes air dodges pretty well.
solecalibur
Smash Master
Brinstar is what I recommend but do not go to battlefeild or distant planet vs marth
Lyat cruise is another good stage to CP against