Zelda Social Thread

[Arcalyth]

Melee Sheik/Mewtwo here. But I don't play Melee anymore, just PM, where I play Sheilda and have a pocket Diddy, Fox, Pit, and MK. When 3.0 comes out I'll be playing Sheilda and Mewtwo primarily with probably the same pocket chars

 

[jtm94]

Yeah I could see how too much dash attack would be bad, noted.

I played all the Smash Bros as they came out and I was sadly a casual so I only really improved on an instinctual level. It was a while between Melee and Brawl for me so I never noticed all of the stuff they changed/ruined. I've been playing P:M for almost a year, though most of it was just with my friends and trying to be better than them. I recently started trying to get really competitive with Zelda as my main, and I wanna try to main Mewtwo as well. I need to work on my Sheik for the bad Zelda MUs, but I also enjoy playing Mario, Marth, Squirtle and want to pick up ZSS because apparently she's super annoying.

 

[Sarix]

I had trouble with Link until I learned land-canceled Naryu's Love, now the matchup is SIGNIFICANTLY easier. Link sucks at comboing you and you're great at comboing him. Kick him in the face.

I actually disagree with Link being bad at comboing Zelda. Link's combos for the most part are just a bit shorter on floaties, but he can still do significant damage with F-throw > DACUS > Follow up of choice (typically another DACUS/Nair/Uair depending on DI).

I do agree that a proper application of Nayru's Love makes the MU much easier for Zelda so she can manage the projectile pressure.

I don't know how the MU usually goes, but one of my friend's is really good with Link (his main) and it is really hard to find the right approach that can get through boomerangs, bombs, AND arrows without teleporting into a punish. I've been trying to let him come to me and if he doesn't approach set up Din's Fire traps, but after facing this guy many times he can play around Din's like no ones business.

Din's Fire will feel very moot in the Link MU since he can easily disarm them with the range on his normals and projectiles. It's at its most useful after a combo on him for additional pressure. Be wary of approaching from the air as while Link has slower normals, his anti-air game is solid with Ftilt, Utilt, Upsmash, and even Nair. If he hits you with an F-smash be sure to shield until after the 2nd hit because he has rather long optional delay on the 2nd hit and it makes for a strong frame trap.

Luckily for Zelda, Link's weight class gives you longer combos and he's at your mercy offstage. His recovery is slow and predictable despite having fairly good options i.e. AGT, Air Dodge > Zair Ledge, & Spin Attack. Just setting Din's Fire once or twice while going to the edge should be enough because it shouldn't be difficult to smack him with an aerial if he touches a fireball mid-recovery.

I main Link currently and have Zelda as a secondary so this is what I've made note of from both sides of the MU.

 

[jtm94]

So I tried out some new tactics today against my friend's Link and I just can't crack him.
I'd like to think I'm not terrible, but not amazing by any means, but I struggle to get him below 2 stock.
He plays a few other characters, but I can't do anything to Link. Naryu's Love is a terrible option against projectiles because he applies pressure on purpose so he can capitalize on the end frames of it. I tried land cancelling it, but it is still too slow he hits me before the move is even over. So I use Love as a way to punish him for getting too close, but not close enough for me to grab or kick him in time.

As for Din's, I only use it when I manage to get him off the stage and capitalize from there, that's pretty much how I KO, but he's pretty good at recovering through a wall of Din's Fire.

He also does some kind of grab combo, and I get thrown, then while in hitstun he hits me with Link's dair and I get KOd at like 57%....

My matchups against other characters seem pretty good though, never really faced anyone else that is so overwhelmingly troublesome. I've faced people who have beaten my friend's Link and won. I think he's just gotten used to dealing with my ordinary tactics.

 

[jtm94]

So I tried out some new tactics today against my friend's Link and I just can't crack him.
I'd like to think I'm not terrible, but I struggle hard to get him below 2 stock.
He plays a few other characters, but I can't do anything to Link. Naryu's Love is a terrible option against projectiles because he applies pressure on purpose so he can capitalize on the end frames of it. I tried land cancelling it, but it is still too slow he hits me before the move is even over. So I use Love as a way to punish him for getting too close, but not close enough for me to grab or kick him in time.

Air Game is bad unless I'm comboing him because as stated Link's usmash is deadly and the uair goes through most anything.

Ground game isn't as bad, but I have a hard time approaching, and his dair stops my usmash so I can't juggle him at high percents when he gets out of hit stun meaning I just have to try for relentless combos.

As for Din's, I only use it when I manage to get him off the stage and capitalize from there, that's pretty much how I KO, but he's pretty good at recovering through a wall of Din's Fire.

He also does some kind of grab combo, and I get thrown, then while in hitstun he hits me with Link's dair and I get KOd at like 57%....

My matchups against other characters seem pretty good though, never really faced anyone else that is so overwhelmingly troublesome. I've faced people who have beaten my friend's Link and won. I think he's just gotten used to dealing with my ordinary tactics.

 

[Arcalyth]

if you're reflecting his projectiles and still getting hit before Nayru's is even finished (with the land cancel), then you're spacing it way too close to him

 

[Rizner]

^ Actually, yeah. I was. Embarrass


On another subject, how many of you guys played smash before P:M? If so, which one(s)?

I played brawl and a little 64 competitively. Plan on doing both and project m at apex this year

 

[Rizner]

So I tried out some new tactics today against my friend's Link and I just can't crack him.
I'd like to think I'm not terrible, but not amazing by any means, but I struggle to get him below 2 stock.
He plays a few other characters, but I can't do anything to Link. Naryu's Love is a terrible option against projectiles because he applies pressure on purpose so he can capitalize on the end frames of it. I tried land cancelling it, but it is still too slow he hits me before the move is even over. So I use Love as a way to punish him for getting too close, but not close enough for me to grab or kick him in time.

As for Din's, I only use it when I manage to get him off the stage and capitalize from there, that's pretty much how I KO, but he's pretty good at recovering through a wall of Din's Fire.

He also does some kind of grab combo, and I get thrown, then while in hitstun he hits me with Link's dair and I get KOd at like 57%....

My matchups against other characters seem pretty good though, never really faced anyone else that is so overwhelmingly troublesome. I've faced people who have beaten my friend's Link and won. I think he's just gotten used to dealing with my ordinary tactics.

Use fireballs more. If he's using projectile from a distances, throw some out. Use them both as shields against approach and as a wall against his projectiles. Larger stages are probably better I'm that matchup (think pokemon 2 or fd). If you use nayrus on a projectile with land cancel, use it to land where the arrow or boomerang will hit him, not the move. Aldo don't do it to books if you can avoid it, wavedash to grab them or walk away if it's thrown a little short.

 

[Whatislove]

So, I'm kind of new to project m, only really started in 2.5. I was maining ROB for a while, and recently changed to a combo of Zelda and Ivysaur. I'm really enjoying Zelda (especially since I main her in melee >.>), but my friends who are on a very similar skill level (got the ATs down, but we're not professional by any means) seem to think that she's very cheap and "noob friendly". Is this a common perception by the community as a whole or is this an isolated event? I find it really hard to believe that she's noob friendly given the skill required to really adeptly use Din's Fire not to mention all the tricks you can do with her Up B. Also, what is this ground cancelling naryu's that you guys are talking about? I always seem to get punished if my friend plays Link when I use it to defend against projectiles.

 

[Nausicaa]

Power Shield is good against Link too. That DD Shield > WDOOS > Pivot F-Tilt/Dash-A/stuff.

Din's Fire is a noob move in a way that makes her noob-friendly in low-level play. Don't use it if you plan on getting better. She's noob-friendly in the sense that she has tools that are easy to stomps noobs with, from Death Kicks to whatever.
Avoid that path.
Learn to combo off Grabs, and work on your punish game to a point where anytime you DO connect a hit, you can either get a kill off it directly, or set up an advantageous position that you can maintain until their stock is gone. THAT is where the Din's ad stuff comes in. Before that hit connects and is converted into a kill/positioning advantage, DD (dash dance) Grab, PS (power shield) projectiles, space Tilts on their face and don't get stuck in a routine.

 

[Whatislove]

So I haven't really been wavedashing, is that something I should be doing? I was under the impression that since Zelda has such a bad wavedash, that it shouldn't really be used. Other than that, I've basically been doing everything right, except for the power shielding (still can't reliably PS ). Am I also correct to assume that, unless they can outcamp me, I should let them approach?

 

[Nausicaa]

YOU should approach THEM, but keep your distance while you're at it. If that makes sense.
Stay on their face, but don't over-commit.
WDOOS is the most universal out-of-shield option in the game. Get that down, and regardless of character, you'll have a great tool at your disposal.

 

[Whatislove]

Ok, thanks

 

[SpiderMad]

Also, what is this ground cancelling naryu's that you guys are talking about?

When you're close to the ground from usually a SH, using Nayrus at a time that it hits the ground near the end of the animation will cancel it so you can do grab/jab/2nd Nayrus quickly if you're near the person. I'm sure Zhime used it a bit in his video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgvYLNGtYK8

 

[Whatislove]

Sweet, thanks for the help

 

[jtm94]

I wasn't using the Naryu's towards him to try and hit, I was using it to reflect projectiles, but the move is so slow I will reflect, he jumps over the projectile and then punishes me. I'm going to try working on wavedashing out of shield and try to get my grab game up. Powershielding all the projectiles should help immensely so I will try to nail that down. Naryu's just isn't good against this guy, it's end is too vulnerable against players based on movement. Din's Fire is similar, I just use it to guard ledges and zelda kick/grab when they hit them. But I can't use it if he's anywhere on the level because he gets super in my face since Din's is kinda slow vs onstage opponents.

I'm getting pretty good with wavedash teleports though, they are amazing if you need to play aggressively and if you switch it up you can gain a lot of momentum.

Also gonna try working on Ivysaur, I started using Ivy today and it was so easy to keep my opponent away from me the range was amazing.

 

[Jethroo]

Not sure if it has been stated yet, but i have noticed that dtilt doesn't trip until it the opponent is at a higher %, but then it always trips (either that or i'm really lucky) which can lead to nice kill set up such as fsmash.

 

[Arcalyth]

Not sure if it has been stated yet, but i have noticed that dtilt doesn't trip until it the opponent is at a higher %, but then it always trips (either that or i'm really lucky) which can lead to nice kill set up such as fsmash.

dtilt>utilt is nice too

 

[BJN39]

I'm guessing you mean the little upwards KB that happens around 65-70% on most characters? If so, than yeah, it always does.

 

[Jethroo]

Oh ya, forgot to mention I've decide to main zelda and i'm new to PM and didn't play melee much.
Also, this is just from playing a computer browser, but i am able to chain grab him with dthrow from 0% to around 150% before killing him with bthrow.

Lastly, I've just started learning to wavedash and any tips would be appreciated in regard to use in a match with zelda.

 

[Blondie.]

Believe me, the chaingrab on Bowser does not work on him or any other character for that matter. If you are unaware of DI, you should research it, but basically, the Bowser can just hold away and escape the chain grab.

If the Bowser DI's bad though, you can get another grab, but it would be more rewarding just to get a sweetspot bair in that situation.

Also, I got 5th at WHOBO 5 this weekend, and almost took out Oracle's ROB. He's just too freaking good. Never think about taking a ROB to a large stage. He will DD camp you to death. I recommend stages such as WarioWare, Yoshi's Story, and Battlefield, although ROB is pretty good on BF.

Also I beat SOS!!!! If you are unaware who he is, he is a TOP melee player in Texas who mains Fox, Falco, and Peach. I always have trouble with the spacies, but I was able to finally beat a top spacie player with Zelda.

My Zelda is really starting to develop, and I'm feeling that I'm gonna make a breakthrough before long.

Unfortunately, my set with SOS wasn't recorded but here is my set with Oracle. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lMgIHqVShM

I kinda gave up part way through the first match cause I made a few crucial mistakes and wanted to conserve energy, but the second match I went all out. Oracle is just mega fast and consistent, and coming from Brawl, I'm still trying to get used to thinking so fast. I'll keep it up though, and believe me, I'll beat Oracle one day!

Oh ya, forgot to mention I've decide to main zelda and i'm new to PM and didn't play melee much.
Also, this is just from playing a computer browser, but i am able to chain grab him with dthrow from 0% to around 150% before killing him with bthrow.

Lastly, I've just started learning to wavedash and any tips would be appreciated in regard to use in a match with zelda.

Welcome! She is a hard character to use at top level, but she is extremely rewarding IMO. Just learn to be patient and calm, and go for those hard punishes when you see an opening.

 

[Wavebuster]

Zelda's dthrow does not chain grab against anyone who DIs it properly. And since it's slow, it will be DI'd easily on reaction. Against some characters you don't really care about where it launches and just want the damage, which is why it does the highest damage of Zelda's throws (15). It can lead to techchases at the edges of stages/platforms and get them offstage behind you for a shot to edgeguard them closely if that's your preference.

 

[BJN39]

Wow Blondie, that performance was beautiful, (Even if you lost that one.) I'd love to see the other battles. :D

You're one of the best I've seen at using Farore and not getting hit.

Keep playing Zelda, she needs more top play representation, and I think you can bring it.

 

[Jethroo]

Meh. I had a feeling it would be like that, but hard to test the DI when it is computer. Going to have to wait until Friday to practice on people.
Also, I love the bthrow set up for b/fair. How well do you think a bthrow, then Ftilt, to F/Bair at low % would work?

 

[Blondie.]

Wow Blondie, that performance was beautiful, (Even if you lost that one.) I'd love to see the other battles. :D

You're one of the best I've seen at using Farore and not getting hit.

Keep playing Zelda, she needs more top play representation, and I think you can bring it.

Thanks a bunch!

I've been working hard on developing my Farore's Wind game, and it is certainly becoming better. It is her hardest move to master imo. In training mode, I can teleport all over different platforms, but I don't feel comfortable yet pulling it out in tourney because it's just not worth it to risk missing and getting an air dodge. If I can get more consistent, I will work more of it into my game.

The way I use it now is more like an escape option to try to quickly gain more stage control. People are generally a little confused (as they should be) when you teleport because you have so many options to do out of it. However, 95% of the time, they will either shield or attack randomly. Because of this, I don't really like teleporting into people very much, but use it to safely and quickly close space and get more control, or to escape high pressure situations (although use this with great care because you have to commit like 20 frames of start up before you actually teleport). Try teleporting right outside of the range that they can quickly punish on reaction. That is the safest and best way to use it imo.

 

[Nausicaa]

Trying to trade Naryu's Love and Death Kicks with an immobile character against a character with big aerial range and high aerial mobility generally shouldn't go very well.
I felt sadface every time you jumped at a distance... it's like if Luigi was just Short Hopping against a Falcon over and over, you're just looking for trouble.
Dash > Shield the aerial > Grab, nullifies a lot of ROB's precision-requirement-aerial-approaches, and Zelda has a good Grab. Some of that happened, but you could have abused that more, instead of putting your safe a F-airs mercy...
The DD Grabbing (eliminating the Death Kicks in Neutral, which generally shouldn't really work regardless of match-up at any decent level of play) would likely be more beneficial to work more of into your game then teleport tricks (which are cool and good and stuff... but not exactly BnB)

Just some thoughts.

Edit: tl;dr, Zelda really isn't that good in the air.

 

[Blondie.]

Trying to trade Naryu's Love and Death Kicks with an immobile character against a character with big aerial range and high aerial mobility generally shouldn't go very well.
I felt sadface every time you jumped at a distance... it's like if Luigi was just Short Hopping against a Falcon over and over, you're just looking for trouble.
Dash > Shield the aerial > Grab, nullifies a lot of ROB's precision-requirement-aerial-approaches, and Zelda has a good Grab. Some of that happened, but you could have abused that more, instead of putting your safe a F-airs mercy...
The DD Grabbing (eliminating the Death Kicks in Neutral, which generally shouldn't really work regardless of match-up at any decent level of play) would likely be more beneficial to work more of into your game then teleport tricks (which are cool and good and stuff... but not exactly BnB)

Just some thoughts.

Edit: tl;dr, Zelda really isn't that good in the air.

Hmm... It would probably be more beneficial if you could give specific examples rather than generalizing the whole match.

In response to your critiques, I definitely agree that I got a little too fair and bair happy at points. I lost my third stock on game 2 from going way too deep with a YOLO fair, and got grabbed because of it and lost my stock. There are quite a few areas I've noticed my self where I need to improve, but it's mostly getting better followups instead of trying to rely on bad DI.

However, I don't agree with what you are saying. I use fair and bair to zone him out and force him into a bad position. A sweetspot fair does 22% and kills on that stage at like 60%, so I'm not sure how it's not beneficial to trade those. Zelda is all about spacing and landing those kicks. I have to be in the air to do that. She can't fair and bair oos reliably in this game because of how bad shield mechanics are.

Shielding his side-b aerial approaches is not generally beneficial at all. Unless you powershield the fair or ROB misspaces it (something Oracle rarely ever does cause he's so damn consistent) you cannot grab his aerials. He will jab>grab or whatever every time. The only safe option is really to roll away. I can sometimes get up b oos off, but it's risky.

Do you even play Zelda? I'm not really sure what you expect me to do if I don't use aerials. Zelda has one of the slowest runs, with a pitiful DD, a puny WD and a slow CQC game. What do you expect me to be doing on the ground?? Only shielding every approach? That is not gonna take me very far. You think even up-b cancels (AKA her only means of ground mobility) are bad. They aren't tricks (trust me, I hate gimmicks), they are definitely BnB mobility options. How many times was I punished for it? Almost none. How many times did it get me into a better position? Almost every time.

On the other hand, she has a multihit, invincible land cancelling reflector that is a super amazing combo starter, she has one of the strongest aerials in the game, and her speed and mobility is significantly increased in the air with b reverses. I know ROB has better range on his aerials and can combo really well against floaties, but that's why it's a difficult MU.

I appreciate critiques, but what you are saying seems like you are unaware of the MU, but are trying to act like you are a master of it.

If you can give me some more specific examples, I would be happy to listen and take them into consideration.

 

[Nausicaa]

Everyone could always use work on punishment game, yeah.

B-air and F-air zone YOU out. You're NOT going to trade with hits, because there's no reason for ROB to jump in and try trading. He can just wait for you to jump and Naryu/D-Kick, and punish you accordingly, which is what happened ALL set. I can't remember, after watching through the full thing twice now, if you even traded/landed a single successful Death-Kick in the Neutral through any zoning-game. A couple when he was coming back from off-stage and you covered a jump/Side-B, that's about it.

ROB miss-spaces it if you Dash toward him and Shield it, then it's a free Grab/U-smash/Up-B. It's the same way you can get a Marth/Falco/Fox that plays aerial happy, or worse, jumps at you, so you can N-air OOS/CC Grab/whatever as Sheik/Peach/whoever.
Of course he'll be fine if you don't do something about it. What do you do? Run at him, even the tiniest bit when he jumps (what else is he gonna do but Side-B when he jumps at that range? It's more obvious that a Peach FC-Aerial by a mile) and Shield for a moment. If he jumps at you, free hit for you, if he doesn't (falling aerial or something instead), then you WDOOS away/toward/whatever and act accordingly, even D-Kick out/Naryu if you want.

You have to make stuff happen as Zelda. Not play passive and zone.
Read the last few pages of this thread, and how I've (others too actually) mentioned this plenty. Aggressively-passive, otherwise, YOU will get zoned, successful Death-Kick trades, or not.

Because you said something about the matches that I totally saw otherwise, I checked it out again and checked them off as they happened in-match.
1) Successful Up-B Maneuvers (* = initial hit connected OOS) = 111111****
2) Unsuccessful Up-B Maneuvers (got hit for it) (* = was from a side-plat) - 1111111**
3) Successful Up-B Maneuvers from Plats to Middle - 11111111111111111
4) Meh Up-B's (nothing around) - 11
5) Off-stage > On-Stage Up-B's (roughly 50% safely made it) - 111111

The Up-B stuff only goes so far, it's a great tool, sure, but the numbers of successful vs unsuccessful outside of Plat > Ground Up-B's don't look too good...

Hopefully that helps for specifics, if not, I'll try to be clearer.
Again, tl;dr, you can't zone ROB as an immobile aerial character... no matter how many trades you think you can make, and it will make it seem a lot harder than it has to be.

 

[Zerudahime]

I've played oracle many times. I think it's fair to say that his ROB is...different.
The matchup seems to be a kick heavy mu but really it shouldnt be played as a kick heavy game bc of ROBs mobility.
UpB is alright in this matchup, but not really a saving grace by any means. This is probably one of Zelda's heaviest bait/punish matches imo.
Fighting JCz and Oracle multiple times sort of taught me that. But as with all mus, it takes time.

 

[jtm94]

I definitely think Blondie showed some really good stuff, especially in game 2. And kicks were landed when they were needed/opportune.
I did see a few moments where ROB could have punished your teleport hard, but didn't. My friend who plays Link is exceedingly difficult to use teleport against because I either get punished for startup, or punished wherever I end up. Recently I have been incorporating TONS of wavedash teleports, and they are incredibly hard to read as long as you don't start them so close as to get hit before you teleport. It is pretty much my solution to not being able to get inside my friend's zone using zoned kicks or Naryu's.

Regardless, I don't think Blondie used excessive teleports by any means, nor were there any teleports at times where I wouldn't have teleported, keep it up! It's inspiring to people just getting into Zelda.

Also, what are some good stages for Zelda/Counterpick stages in common matchups?
Today I found out that I really like Dracula's Castle for some reason.

 

[Blondie.]

It's inspiring to people just getting into Zelda.

Thanks!! I appreciate it!

ROB miss-spaces it if you Dash toward him and Shield it, then it's a free Grab/U-smash/Up-B. It's the same way you can get a Marth/Falco/Fox that plays aerial happy, or worse, jumps at you, so you can N-air OOS/CC Grab/whatever as Sheik/Peach/whoever.
Of course he'll be fine if you don't do something about it. What do you do? Run at him, even the tiniest bit when he jumps (what else is he gonna do but Side-B when he jumps at that range? It's more obvious that a Peach FC-Aerial by a mile) and Shield for a moment. If he jumps at you, free hit for you, if he doesn't (falling aerial or something instead), then you WDOOS away/toward/whatever and act accordingly, even D-Kick out/Naryu if you want.

Okay, if we're gonna get all Super Theory Bros in here, let me run this down. If ROB times a perfect robo-boosted fair on my shield and l-cancels it, he is -3 on block. His jab comes out on frame 3, so there are 6 frames for me to act. Zelda's shield grab comes out on frame 9, her up-b oos on frame 9, and her usmash oos on frame 7. That means she has NO safe option for punishing the side-b fair approach, except to roll away. Just shielding all his approaches is not going to work, unless he screws up, which I'm not gonna rely on with someone of Oracle's caliber.

Not to mention, it is not at all obvious that he's just going to run in with a side-b fair if I approach with a shield. ROB has 3 side-b's he can do, and Oracle will use these often to throw off your timing and create additional pressure. He's not just gonna do some stupid obvious approach. Additionally, Oracle will often just sit back and DD camp while he waits for me to approach (after all, what else am I gonna do? Dins fire???? LMAO!). If my approach is to go in and shield, Oracle will be able to react to that and grab me, or he will start reading that approach.

On top of all that, even if I do manage to get a grab, Zelda's throw game is WEAK. She has no guaranteed followups on any of her throws, and Oracle will ALWAY DI the proper way. The best thing I can do is get a dthrow and maybe a dash attack followup.

On the other hand, if Oracle reads me and gets a grab, ROB has an amazing throw game, with potential to throw me into the air and start a juggle (something Zelda is extremely susceptible to) or get a free dthrow to nair kill setup.

You have to make stuff happen as Zelda. Not play passive and zone.

Read the last few pages of this thread, and how I've (others too actually) mentioned this plenty. Aggressively-passive, otherwise, YOU will get zoned, successful Death-Kick trades, or not.

Look, I understand this, but when in any of that video was I being passive?? I was completely aggressively zoning with my kicks the whole time! If you can give me an example of when I was being "passive" then I will definitely try to fix that, but I have no idea what you are talking about. I understand that ROB literally can just sit there and wait for me to do something, but that's why this matchup is difficult, and why I recommend taking ROB to a small stage like Yoshi's Story. If I just stay on the ground, I will have no quick options available to me, and if I just stay in my shield, he will quickly take advantage of me. How is shield approaching aggressive anyway??

There is a reason why Zelda is a bad character (probably bottom 5). Yes, I hate to break it to you guys, but she is bad at a top level. That is why you need to outplay, outsmart and read your opponent better than they do to you.

Because you said something about the matches that I totally saw otherwise, I checked it out again and checked them off as they happened in-match.
1) Successful Up-B Maneuvers (* = initial hit connected OOS) = 111111****
2) Unsuccessful Up-B Maneuvers (got hit for it) (* = was from a side-plat) - 1111111**
3) Successful Up-B Maneuvers from Plats to Middle - 11111111111111111
4) Meh Up-B's (nothing around) - 11

5) Off-stage > On-Stage Up-B's (roughly 50% safely made it) - 111111

I really don't know what you are trying to get at here. 35 successful out of 44 attempts is not a bad statistic at all. If you consider that most of those 35 successful teleports put me in a significantly better position on stage, and most of those 9 unsuccessful attempts only led to me getting a tiny bop from like a fair, and just putting me back into the same position I was in, then that sounds like the teleports where doing their job. Its not like I got usmash read or grabbed or combo'd out of my teleports. He was lucky just to put me back into my place with a soft hit. Most of those unsuccessful attempts were also when I was in an extremely bad spot and was trying to escape pressure (much like a roll, but teleports give you way more options with the trade off of having more startup) so it is expected that it should be difficult to pull a successful one off in that situation (even though most of the time I was successful).

Also, I said that I was still developing my teleport game. I get better at it all the time, but it will never be perfected if I don't get punished for it multiple times in tournament first.





Sorry for the super long post, but basically I'm saying your approach to the MU is wrong, and I am positive I have more experience in it than you do, having fought Oracle in 6 different tournaments. I appreciate your attempts to help, and if you have any more suggestions, I would be all ears and happy to hear them, but you shouldn't act all conceited like you know much better than I do, when you clearly don't.

Now I know it is not that great to go with aerial approaches against a character who has much better aerials than I do, but what other choice do I have in the matchup? I know I obviously need work, and I am trying to improve what I am doing, but I feel that my approach to the MU is mostly correct. I just need to get better at escaping shield pressure, reading his aerial approaches, pressuring and zoning with fair and bair, and getting better followups after combos. I'm thinking about applying more utilt as a possible anti-aerial approach, but I'm not sure if it will work that well, considering it requires a soft read and a ton of commitment.

 

[Blondie.]

DANG! I actually got 5th/30 at WHOBO 5!!!

Highest Zelda placing at a national!? I think so

 

[Nausicaa]

You've got a lot of theory-crafting going on there... and seemed to have missed the points entirely...
No big deal, you'll get it eventually anyway.

Simply put, 2 things.
1) It seemed more like playing on the defensive, simply because of how frequently and constantly he approached you. Though maybe that was zoning, those are just linguistics, but all I was pointing out is that a lot of his offense was successful only BECAUSE you were jumping around a lot. Staying grounded is all I suggested/will suggest. I like the ground (+all the TP's from the plats to the ground WERE successful, it was like a 50% success rate outside of that... that was the point on that one otherwise)

2) I didn't really see him DDing much, not that ROB can DD any better than Zelda anyway (lol), and if he did, that's like free-Grabs for you. Otherwise, he spent almost the entire match in the air, N-airs and F-airs around the plat-forms trying to pick you off, and projectile-use otherwise. The only ground-game he had was when something connected/trapped you, which is also kind of ROBs thing.

Have you dabbled in ROB? Playing AS him might help get a feel for what he struggles with (it's not like he's a great character either)

DD Grab, if he's being aggro in play-style and jumps, the odds of him doing certain things is pretty high, and it's easy to abuse. (If you can abuse a Falco for it, you can abuse a ROB for it)

5th with a terribad character? Nice

 

[Blondie.]

You've got a lot of theory-crafting going on there... and seemed to have missed the points entirely...
No big deal, you'll get it eventually anyway.

Simply put, 2 things.
1) It seemed more like playing on the defensive, simply because of how frequently and constantly he approached you. Though maybe that was zoning, those are just linguistics, but all I was pointing out is that a lot of his offense was successful only BECAUSE you were jumping around a lot. Staying grounded is all I suggested/will suggest. I like the ground (+all the TP's from the plats to the ground WERE successful, it was like a 50% success rate outside of that... that was the point on that one otherwise)

2) I didn't really see him DDing much, not that ROB can DD any better than Zelda anyway (lol), and if he did, that's like free-Grabs for you. Otherwise, he spent almost the entire match in the air, N-airs and F-airs around the plat-forms trying to pick you off, and projectile-use otherwise. The only ground-game he had was when something connected/trapped you, which is also kind of ROBs thing.

Have you dabbled in ROB? Playing AS him might help get a feel for what he struggles with (it's not like he's a great character either)

DD Grab, if he's being aggro in play-style and jumps, the odds of him doing certain things is pretty high, and it's easy to abuse. (If you can abuse a Falco for it, you can abuse a ROB for it)

5th with a terribad character? Nice

Ok, I mean I still don't really agree with you, but I will try to take a different approach to the ROB matchup. I don't know if staying grounded will work well, but I will definitely give it a shot.

Also, he wasn't DDing because I took him to small stages. If it was his counterpick, I guarantee he would pick a large stage, where he would DD, use projectiles, and never approach unless he had an offensive advantage. ROB's DD was buffed in 2.6 if you were unaware. It is definitely much better than Zelda's DD.

And Zelda definitely isn't terribad. She just needs some more tools if she wants to stay even with the other high tier characters. But she is completely viable by all means (along with every other character in the game).

 

[Nausicaa]

For sure. It was only suggestions and observations, there's not really anything to agree or disagree with unless there's some mis-interpretation (or interpretation at all haha) around it.
Any time I jump as Zelda/Luigi/Snake/terribly immobile characters in the air in general, and I get hit, I take hard mental-notes. All I know, is that if I play a ROB as Zelda, and I jump too much, I get hit lots and notice, and in your matches, I noticed that you got hit lots literally for the simple reason that you jumped when it was not worth the risk for the reward, and I would have done it differently, so pointed out very bluntly what happened, with no sugar coating, and suggested something that you could read and apply at your own will.

^ AKA Super-Disclaimer. We're on the same page, and the same team, even though it may not seem like it in our discussions.

 

[Blondie.]

Cool. Thanks for the help btw. I've been having quite a block with Zelda for a little while now and perhaps it's because I'm a little too air happy.

I'll see if I can apply your advice and see how it goes. I'll try using more tilts and stuff and maybe only really go for Nayru's approaches when it seems beneficial, rather than just spamming it like I honestly kinda do. (Btw, I think Nayru's is her best move)

 

[Nausicaa]

Nayru has definitely been the most-complained thing from people fighting AGAINST Zelda, so it must be doing something right! haha

I could probably use less N-air, Grab, and F-tilt in my game. The other Zelda near here is better with the character in a more dynamic way, where I just win because I pick up on things quickly...
After telling people why the stuff I'm doing is working, and helping them figure out how to beat it... and knowing that it wouldn't work if I played myself... and wouldn't work to this extent if I played a selection of quick-learning players for a long time because it's simply not how I know the meta-game will turn out... and that I just love the moves too much for the sake of fun... etc...
That's too complicated...
Basically, people are starting to 'get' my way of playing Zelda, on a player-to-player level, and it has a lot to do with how I abuse those moves as such a Bread-and-Butter because it's just my style.

I bet I could use more Naryu's really, since the other Zelda abuses that... and it's actually really annoying and universally tough to deal with, rather than just working due to straight-up out-spacing the opponent with mind-game mixes of oddly active and yet safe Grabs, aggressively-passive N-air attempts in Neutral, and WD/Pivot F-tilts. haha

So much to learn and apply, even with a fairly 'limited' character like Zelda. :/
*Tough game\

Edit: I don't use D-Smash much either, though the other Zelda near does quite a bit. Up-B > D-Smash is common enough to notice that it's a part of his standard tech-chase game.
Is that common for Zelda's BnB game in the public-eye?

 

[Arcalyth]

@Blondie: In your set vs Oracle I see a lot of places where you use Nayru's where jab or ftilt might be a better option. In fact, you rarely use her tilts at all - your entire game consisted mainly of walling with lightning kick and harrassing with nair/Nayru while staying safe with teleport. Her ftilt truly is a bread and butter tool, setting up for deadly, intimidating combos, it clanks things, and can be angled to hit high or low targets (quite a bit of combo potential here based on the positioning of the hit, including behind her)

utilt has intangibility on her raised arm as well, making it an effective anti-air which might help you get out of some of ROB's roboboost approaches. Your teleport mobility is pretty good, you tended to teleport safely. Wavedash/teleport>ftilt/jab set up effective and relatively safe defenses. Jab is safe on block, as is fsmash.

MAKE YOUR KICKS COUNT. I feel that this is integral to Zelda's pressure game. Much like when fighting Ike, people are afraid of Zelda's massive punishment. Comboing with the weak/electric flub hits leading into a critical lightning kick is very intimidating. Hell, critical lightning kick is intimidating. Make your opponents eat it, whiffing doesn't look good

I agree with Nausicaa, you're jumping too much, in this post I highlighted walling with kicks and approaching with Nayru's - Zelda's ground game as stated above with her tilts is definitely worth looking into... maybe Ryoko's 2.6 primer thread will give you some inspiration?


@Nausicaa:
dsmash is ****ing sick
^^^ message endorsed by Zerudahime guaranteed

 

[Xyro77]

wow. wrong thread. sorry guys.

 

[Blondie.]

Thanks a lot guys for the help. Your tips might just be what I need to get my Zelda to the next level. I'll try applying all this over the next few weeks and try it out next time I fight Oracle (whenever that may be). Seriously though, that guy is like my kyrptonite. Literally every single P:M tournament that I've gone to that he's been at (6 now) he has eliminated me from bracket. I'll get my revenge one day!