Zelda Social Thread

[SpiderMad]

You used shield, doesn't count

 

[Heero Yuy]

Guys, I THINK I just discovered a chain grab for her. If it's what you all think it is, then just tell me. Otherwise, I'll start working on a guide.

Edit: Welp, I just learned it can be escaped with really good DI, but then again can't most CGs? There's a chance this isn't a CG but just some really well-timed followups. I'll keep experimenting.

 

[Zerudahime]

What don't you like about Bowser? I haven't played Kirk's in a while, but I always felt like it was a very doable MU. She has a lot of ways to keep him in the air, where he can't just safely up B out of everything forever.

Sorry for the delayed response. Bowser has tons of tools to use against Zelda when it comes to fighting on the ground and that's what makes the mu very difficult. Its very heavily based on kicks and keeping Bowser in the air, you are absolutely correct in that aspect. The hard part is that Bowser can kill Zelda at extremely low %s (57%) off the top of sv from a grab>uair, upb can pretty much do whatever he wants it to, and his crouch is extremely hard for Zelda to do anything about when he can easily dtilt out of it to push her back. Dins is useless on the ground as well bc he can clank them with upb/dtilt or ftilt which has an amazingly good range to keep him safe from punishment if he's clanking them and you're trying to use them as a distraction. 90% of the time if Bowser is at a low % and you're casting dins, he will dash attack (which was also buffed with 2 hitboxes) right through your dinky fireball or even during the startup and land a solid hit right on you. THAT is extremely detrimental bc it can also kill you.

Bowser also has enough armor on side b that he can completely armor through a critical kick on start-up and grab you and do whatever he wants. Basically Zelda needs to stand back for the most part, and being that hes so good on the ground with an incredible vertical range, she suffers big time. The most Zelda can hope for is to land counter kicks, bait his approaches, avoid using dins (one of her greatest strengths), and pray that she doesn't get grabbed. Grabs will generally lead to death in most cases from Bowser even with decent DI. Especially now that his grab range has been greatly increased.

Something else to keep in mind, Bowsers ledge attack is arguably one of the best in the game with its range and kb, so it makes edgeguarding him also extremely difficult because if he gets the ledge he pushes you back anyway. You can be daring and go for the dair but his upb may end up hitting you. If he lands on stage, he can hit you with the recovering upb>upb again on stage and depending on your % you will die. Playing good Bowsers requires excellent juggling capabilities and a good keep away game which makes it one of her hardest matchups considering he doesn't have to do much to get through her multihit smashes.

Tips for the MU:
+Don't be afraid to get hit by Bowser's new quake hitbox if you're in range. If he hits you with it, you typically come out of hitstun before Bowser can get back on his feet again and are able to land a nice critical kick.
+Grabs are your friends and keep in mind that if Bowser is behind you and you are shielding, he may attack your shield and allow you to grab him while his hitbox is extended in front of you. Just be careful doing that because it can become predictable.
+Use farores wind and mobility very wisely as he can upb you anytime you cancel out and possibly kill you. Use it more for tech chases than movement.
+Try to build damage quickly in the beginning so he loses some of his armor once he reaches 100%. It makes killing him a bit more manageable.
+Stand near the ledge when Bowser is on it, shield the getup attack (below 100%) and when he retreats back towards the ledge, grab him for a swift bthrow to get him back into the air or kill him w a din trap.
+IF you land a LC nayru>jab>ftilt>jab>fair that will be a great opener. And if the bowser has bad di, LCnayru>jab>ftilt>jab>ftilt>uair(electric+sweet) will do great damage. However, BIG ''ifs'' there.

EDIT: Thinking back on this, the real issue is killing him. Bowser will kill you with: uair, fair, upb, sideb(grab or slash), usmash, fsmash, or down b. Zelda can kill Bowser with Fair/bair crit spot at decent %s, utilt (high%s), MAYBE a good back hitbox of dsmash, uair, and bthrow at high%s. All of those kill moves of Zelda's are much harder to land than Bowser's kill moves so it comes down to kill power and the situations you have to take advantage of listed above. ((Sorry for the book, just trying to be helpful.))

Hope this explains/helps anyone that may be having trouble with Boozer.
(You could always use Wavebuster's approach and use downB....)

 

[Heero Yuy]

I need help with the ZSS matchup. My main problem is that she's too flippin' fast and she can get around Din's Fires and basically everything I throw at her. She comboes Zelda hard, too. The only way I could get hits was when I successfully outspaced my opponent, but of course that wasn't all the time.

 

[DMG]

YO so, I can't say for sure but it looks like Zelda's invulnerability during B got nerfed. I'm seeing a lot of people go through the early parts of it now. Is this confirmed or just the opponent getting lucky? I know there aren't any dern fangit patch notes but I'm watching my friends play and it seems very noticeable. Anyone else experienced this?

 

[Deleted member]

According to this post on the last page, there weren't any changes to Nayru's...unless he just forgot to mention it. I personally haven't noticed any changes to the move.

 

[Needsmorespin]

hey, I picked up Zelda in 2.6, any beginners advice?

 

[DMG]

Smash
Tilt
B

Which then lead into
Grab
Kicks
More Smashes

 

[Needsmorespin]

if there are any die hard Zelda Skype groups I would love to be added and chat

 

[Blondie.]

We do need to make a Skype group. I'm a die hard main, and I know zhime and ryoko are too, and there's one other zelda main in Texas. I'm sure we could get a decent number of people.

 

[Heero Yuy]

^ Count me in. I still need a recording device so I can show you all my matches against decent players. The Zelda backroom is in business, broskis.

I'll share my Skype info if enough people agree to it.

 

[Wavebuster]

hey, I picked up Zelda in 2.6, any beginners advice?

You can try reading this thread. http://smashboards.com/threads/stor...elda-primer-for-demo2-6-updated-a-bit.331774/

Alternatively, watch some match videos.

Also, Zelda's grabs have updated GFX/SFX in this update. Everyone try them out.

 

[Heero Yuy]

If anybody wants to know Zelda's patch notes without referring to the thread:

-Jab launching hitbox has a higher launch angle and slightly higher base knockback and less knockback growth
-Up Tilt knockback increased very slightly
-Up Smash's lifting hitboxes fine tuned to not throw certain characters out of the move after several connected hits. Has another linking hit and deals one more damage. IASA no longer increased from Melee, but equal to it
-Neutral Air does consistent damage output depending on number of hits rather than placement of hits
-Forward Air/Back Air flub damage increased slightly to be closer to Melee's, and are knockback compensated. Critical sweetspots increased in size slightly to offer more consistency while still being tiny (2/3 size of Rest). Critical Back air has slightly more BKB. Noncrit electric hits have increased damage/KB slightly closer to Melee. Noncrit Fair hitboxes have slightly lower launch angle similar to its critical but not quite as potent
-Up Air's sweetspot size minutely increased. Weak electric hit slightly improved. Graphical effect/sound effect timers edited for accuracy
-Down Air has somewhat increased shield damage and a less small sweetspot, and more knockback growth against grounded targets. Flub damage increased slightly
-Graphical effects on Grabs adjusted
-Forward Throw damage increased slightly
-Down Throw damage increased slightly
-Side B's flashing graphics loop one more time than previously. Minimum time to set slowed down, and set animation has increased lag to deter walling. Set hitboxes are smaller, but activate sooner after setting the projectile. Explosions are significantly larger and deadlier
-Down B (transform) intangibility adjusted slightly and also not as interruptible as soon
-Down B (transform) startup is slightly faster

I would say she was buffed overall, despite the few nerfs in knockback of certain attacks. I may need to get used to the new DF, too.

 

[Zerudahime]

the changes are subtle but good ones i think

 

[Rizner]

Hey all, I'm a PM Zelda main and starting to get more active in PM. I'm in Ohio now, and will hopefully start traveling to more tournaments soon.

 

[BJN39]

Okay, my mind went completely blank. What do GFX and SFX mean?

 

[standardtoaster]

gfx = graphics and sfx - sound effects

 

[Needsmorespin]

ok, anyone who wants in this Zelda main circle just post your Skype name and I'll add you

 

[Zerudahime]

ok, anyone who wants in this Zelda main circle just post your Skype name and I'll add you

I will private message you mine.

 

[Needsmorespin]

oh yeah, actually just Pm your skype name to me if you want to join the group guys

 

[PhantasyStar]

Alrighty so after months of playing Project M i've come to choosing my ride or die main...Which is Zelda. Before I found competitive smash I played her from nearly when Brawl came out to last year so i'm pretty used to certain aspects of her. Background info: In Melee i'm a Peach/Shiek player, and i'm hoping to put in some work with Zelda at Xanadu when I get the chance to go (its the closest weekly around me). I probably sound far off for saying this but I really feel like if used correctly Zelda could do some heavy damage to a lot of the cast...

 

[Needsmorespin]

no honestly I agree, the only people who give Zelda trouble are the people with disjoint who can poke her out of things (Marth/Ike/Ivy/Zamus to an extent)

 

[Needsmorespin]

also need to make sure I don't carry my Yoloness with Peach over to Zelda, thats a recipe for disaster

 

[Deleted member]

Alrighty, so we all know Zelda is an unpopular and controversial character. It's basically the few Zelda mains who love her vs. everybody else who hates her.

Here's the big question I'd like to present to the more experienced Zelda players - Do you believe that she is currently viable at high/top levels of play and why? Is she truly a significant threat? Can somebody win a tournament using mostly Zelda? If so, do you think she will continue to be viable in the future as the game develops more? If not, what changes do you think she could use to make her more viable?

 

[BJN39]

^ THIS.

I've been meaning to ask this myself. I love zelda, I wouldn't pick anyone over her. But I do want to know what the best think, and what could be done to her that would help her, or whether or not it's necessary to "buff" her.

 

[Zerudahime]

Based on my own experience, Zelda is most definitely a viable character and can be used solo (no down b) in order to place high at tournaments. She is very good presently, and I dont feel that she needs to receive any more significant buffs or alterations in order to compete with the rest of the cast. She is very much unexplored territory for a lot of people that have picked her up even up to this point. Zelda is a passive-aggressive character and needs to be played as such to benefit from her moveset. Most of the hatred comes from unfamiliarity with the matchup and not knowing how to handle some of her new assets. Those 2 factors are something that I believe many competitive tournament players are relying on in order to do well with her currently. Players are starting to catch on to her game though, which is a good thing. As long as we as Zeldas realize that the MU unfamiliarity is not something to rely on and diligently work on her underlying ATs : Nayrus escape, Din timer trips, Farores ledge hogs, love jumps etc...only then will she withstand pressure in the long run from the rest of the cast. She is most certainly tournament viable, and I have never really been ''dissatisfied'' with any of my placements due to her design but my own fault (always placed in at least top 10 placing as high as 1st online, 2nd offline). That is also something that players need to realize in order to become more successful. Just because we do have the power to make such drastic changes in such a diverse game, doesn't always mean that she needs to be buffed to actualize her full potential. Zelda is in a very good spot at the moment, I just feel that she needs to have more representation and focus on the advanced techniques that are included in her new toolkit.

For example, this shows both Nayru's escape and FW ledge hog in a few seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anOHGCNvRFo

 

[Blondie.]

Zelda has serious potential, but I feel like there is one MAJOR thing holding her back. Shield slide is way too far. I've had lots of trouble with this in my experience and never realized this is the problem until I started watching Cosmo a lot more and was wondering why stuff he was doing in certain situations was working for him and not me.

I realized how big of a problem this was when I watched a match of me vs a Ganon on FD. I couldn't get in or punish anything because every time I shielded, I would slide like half way across the stage. When this gets fixed (I hope it gets fixed at least) I believe it will really help Zelda because she is such a shield based character.

One buff I would like to see though is something I've been thinking about for a long time. I know that Ryoko made the lag after side b longer to discourage camping with Dins, but it feels like it hurts my game because against a competent player, I can pretty much never get a Din's out because it has so much lag at the end. My proposal is that on side b, the IASA frames are decreased by quite a bit by every move EXCEPT side b again. This is similar to how her dtilt works. This would make it so you would have more of a chance to safely get out 1 Din's, but not be able to spam them like crazy. I think this would be a great improvement to her character.

@Zhime, I love seeing all your awesome AT's and learn a lot from watching you. However, in a lot of situations, I feel like what you do just puts you in a worse situation. That dthrow with cfalc is an example where I would use Nayru's escape too, but most of the time I see you use love jump, it just ends up putting you in a worse situation. Zelda's major weakness is her susceptibility to being juggled, and love jumping just puts you high up in the air without a DJ. I would use love jumps only EXTREMELY sparingly and in those do or die situations, like getting dthrowed by cfalc.

But even in that example that you showed, you could have avoided the knee by simply jumping and it would have been much more beneficial to you. You would have been right above him in bair range, with his back against the ledge of the stage and you ready to punish him. Instead by love jumping, you put yourself in a position to EASILY be juggled by cfalc's uair (If this wasn't recorded on wifi) and then you would be being juggled by a cfalc with no DJ which equals guaranteed death. It worked out for you in this example, but I still would have rather DJ'd over him in that situation rather than WB love jump.

 

[BJN39]

Well said Zhime. Also, I happened to run across that video just earlier today.

Although, have you ever thought of any changes that sound nice, that aren't necessarily big changes? Like a small change to any move?


I also like Idea for din's Blondie. It seems logical, without causing silliness. > _ >

 

[Heero Yuy]

I agree with Blondie that Zelda needs sooner IASA frames with the Din's Fires...

She also gets comboed hard by a few select characters, particularly ZSS. I also feel like Falco's pillaring hurts her, too.

Currently working on my Sheik, however, to take on some of her really bad MU's. My worst so far would have to be Peach and Bowser.

 

[Zerudahime]

@Blondie, The video is mostly for illustrative purposes given the opponents previous habits and understanding of the mu, I opted to use the WB nayru because I anticipated the knee and needed the invincibility frames to escape the move. Certainly the move would have connected if in range and if i attempted to jump because of the active frames on nayrus love. But again, mostly for illustrative purposes. As far as love jump putting you in bad situations, the only way that it is bad is if you love jump behind the opponent onto the stage. Boosting away of course is always the better option but I like to use it for positioning and gaining ground. I have been punished for using it in the past quite a bit and am aware of the consequences but I dont really think its that much of an issue unless im playing a character with a strong uair. Like Zelda for instance.

@BJN39, There are things currently in the works for Zelda that I have designed recently and she is receiving attention. So, have no fear, the rest of the backroom is looking at her as well. And of course, Ryoko and Myself are always committed to helping Zelda remain a driving force in the game so that she doesnt get left behind.

 

[Blondie.]

Ya Zhime, don't get me wrong, I love some of the stuff you do! I definitely need to implement love jumps a bit more (honestly I forget about them most of the time). I'm just generally skeptical about these new techniques. I am a very fundamental based player and like to keep things simple (especially when playing in tournament). Your playstyle is obviously the opposite, being very technique based and using a large amount of specials. There is a lot I pick up from you and implement into my game, but I do it sparingly, because like I said, I'm generally skeptical about the stuff you do. As I mentioned earlier, I believe somewhere between how you play, how I play, and how Cosmo plays melee Zelda is the most effective, and that's what I'm striving to achieve.

I really do appreciate what you do for the character though. I've gone through ups and downs with this character, but I really love her depth and design. Keep up the good work, and please consider implementing that change I mentioned earlier. I think it would help improve her game quite a bit.

 

[Needsmorespin]

I agree about the Din's fire idea Blondie had, Din's fire is one of Zelda's best tools but since you can't seem to get even one out without being punished hard for it then that kills its usability at least in my eyes, also the shield slide Is a problem, Zelda was made to lure you in, trick you into striking her shield and punish you for it, but with her tapping into her inner Luigi everytime she gets hit in shield that again kinda of back pedals her basic instincts
just my two cents anyway

 

[Zerudahime]

Zelda currently has enough tools that can push opponents back far enough to place dins effectively. Its less about how often you can refresh dins fire and actively place them while being safe and more about placing them in strategic positions using the synergistic mobility of farores wind. Dins fire HAS to leave her wide open. Its what makes her commit to using it, and rewarding when you use it well. Dins fire is one of her best tools, but not her best option in all situations. You cant expect to constantly have one or more on the field unless you're using old spam tactics from brawl or something. Its much more strategic than any other projectile in the game and offers huge rewards when you use it efficiently.

 

[Needsmorespin]

solid point

 

[Needsmorespin]

yeah, last thing I want is for Zelda to become 2.5 Sonic...cause we all know how Fun that was

 

[otheusrex]

I was thinking about the Dins fire iasa frames being sooner for all moves except another dins. it seems pretty reasonable to me, but after listening to zhime's statement about it I'm not sure where I stand about it being buffed.

I was playing a decent ivy online the other day and was having a lot of problems with his razor leaf approach. I was trying different strategies with dealing with it but nothing seemed very reliable. So maybe you guys can help me with some advice. I know there are a lot of things about the basic metagame that I don't have a firm grasp on so it might just be me. I also know that sometimes moves are just really good and you just have to deal with it (as a zelda player I know that sometimes a character really needs a very good move just to compete). Anyways... shielding seemed like it was the wrong option against razor leaf, because ivy could easily rush in and grab, or nair poke me. Spotdoge, I guess I didn't try very much but I think ivy's long nair would counter that option. Jumping back or over it didn't seem good because I either got hit with the razor leaf, which stunned me enough for ivy's followup, or I got hit with ivy's fair itself. Nayru did work a lot for me, but I feel it was only because the ivy wasn't being smart about dealing with it; I think a smart ivy would actually use razor leaf to bait out a nayru and punish with a spaced attack or shield grab you. Finally, powershielding worked like a charm, but was too difficult for me to rely upon.

That left me with nayru as my only strategy in this circumstance, but I've already discussed how I doubt its use is reliably safe in this circumstance vs a smart ivy. Also, I'd rather not have to rely upon a single strategy for something as broad as ivy's approach. I'm trying to play smarter and more aware of my options, using mix-ups to keep from playing stale.

 

[Blondie.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb6hITTGRpQ

Watch my most recent match against a very good Ivy to get an idea.

I'm sure you're aware that Nayru's Love land cancels. That is a huge deal because you have a reflector that requires almost no commitment. If you can get used to consistently landing on the very beginning frames of the land cancel, you have an incredibly useful tool for dealing with this matchup. Nayru's immediately turns the tables and now you get a free approach. This will make the Ivy want to use it less, but it's really the only approach she has, so she'll need to use it sometimes, and you can usually Nayru's on prediction. If she stays away from the razor leaf, you can beat her in the spacing game using your toes.

Also, learning Sheik is very valuable because Sheik wrecks Ivy. Especially on Metal Cavern, which I take him to on game 4 and 3 stock him. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

 

[Arcalyth]

Naryu's Love is land-cancelable after the attack frames complete (frame 27 I think), maybe that will help?

I haven't played vs. Ivy much so I'm not sure, but can you clank Razor Leaf with fair/bair?

 

[Blondie.]

It probably does, but that's just not a reliable option to go for. Nayru's is way more safe and consistent.

IMO Nayru's Love is Zelda's best move. It's a shame people don't use it more.

 

[Arcalyth]

I think it'd be good if the opponent is baiting Naryu's because you can SH fair > waveland even with hitlag from clanking

but I haven't tried it, so this is just theorycrap