Zelda Social Thread

[Needsmorespin]

I know this is the Zelda social thread but since you mentioned Ivy...honestly Ivy is a little too good in 2.6

 

[BJN39]

I definately agree that Ivy has gotten good, and she certainly seems like a better camping character than Zelda.

But Zelda's main use wasn't exactly to camp, was it...

#Passive-AggressiveGlass-Cannon

 

[Sarix]

Feel free to shoot this idea down like a duck in Duck Hunt but I was throwing around ideas of how to break some of Zelda's linear nature. One idea that stuck was the idea of giving her Din's Fire two modes: One where you hold down B and you can set mines as normal, and another where if you release B it would move and track automatically similar to Samus' homing missile while not being as spammable. This wouldn't let her have 5-6 fireballs on the screen (that's just a no), she would still be limited to three but she would have the option to divvy up how many she wants for traps or pressure.

The idea behind this was to give Zelda more offensive options and pressure. Granted this change would also enable her to be even more campy so it could totally backfire and make no progress on her play style at all. But the basic idea was to allow her to have a fireball cover her in neutral and allow her to set up a mine with the tracking fireball out. She could also use the fireball to force the opponent to block and aid her approach or to create zoning pressure. In essence the idea would be to allow Zelda to function more as a "pixie" character or a character who wants to get their pressure started to gain the advantage.

Again, feel free to say why this would be a good, terrible, or interesting idea. It was just something I came up with out of the blue and thought I should share.

 

[BJN39]

So.... Since this is technically a social thread, how's everyone doing?

 

[Needsmorespin]

good...also if there was a tier list, I feel Zelda would be A at least, given all her awesome tools

 

[BJN39]

I'd love the idea of zelda being considered A tier by the general public, but I doubt it will ever happen.

I guess we zeldas will just have to keep showing her flair!

"You only lose if you let yourself lose."

 

[CyberZixx]

I think Zelda is solid. Not amazing but solid. As it has been stated other character are better at long range zoning then she is. Such as ivy or Falco.

 

[Blondie.]

I'm working hard to become the best Zelda main (that is my goal), but I honestly feel Zelda is a B tier character. She has some good tools and a good player can use her well, but she is just not as good as many of the other characters in this game. Call me a fraud, but I feel like she needs a bit more to be considered a top tier character.

 

[himemiya]

Maybe pmbr should make her less vulnerable with shooting fireballs and when the dins hit a wall and you still hold on it the radius/kb/dmg it gives should continue to grow. And her usmash having a dacus and vbrawl range. I think she fine the way she he is but she can use some unnoticeable buffs though.

 

[PrincessAzula]

Honestly, after her mediocre showing in Melee and then her abysmal showing in Brawl, I'm totally ok with Zelda being mid-tier (although, I really do feel like she is high-mid)

 

[Sarix]

I'm working hard to become the best Zelda main (that is my goal), but I honestly feel Zelda is a B tier character. She has some good tools and a good player can use her well, but she is just not as good as many of the other characters in this game. Call me a fraud, but I feel like she needs a bit more to be considered a top tier character.

I would say that's pretty accurate of Zelda. She has good tools for her neutral game and giving herself the space to start zoning.

I think she needs more tools to be able to press the advantage offensively as well as having a better OoS game. It's kinda ironic that a defensive character has limited options when on the defensive.

I use her as a secondary and play her somewhat like Mu-12 from BB with the defensive zoning neutral game and creating tech chase set ups and traps.

 

[otheusrex]

I agree with Sarix that she could use some tweaks or different tools to help her press the advantage when she has it, and that her out of shield game is lacking. Zhime describes Zelda as a passive aggressive character rather than a defensive character, so I think that describes how she can be really good sometimes at zoning and reacting to situations that she predicts, but not that good at turning a high pressure situation around in a flash. I think that's right?? I'm trying not to talk out of my ass here. At least, it seems like she isn't nearly as good as peach when it comes to fending off pressure because her moves either aren't fast enough, or cover the right zones.

On second check, I see that nayru's invincibility comes out on frame 5 (ground) and 6 (air) so I guess that's fairly fast, but I know you can't neutral B directly out of shield. Does anyone know how long it takes to do a neutral b after dropping shield? I'm guessing it's longer than it would be useful cause I don't remember seeing zelda's do it very often. Personally, my favorite OoS move is Farore's wind, especially if they're within range for the hitbox

 

[Nausicaa]

WDOOS is good too.

If anything with 'Fireballs', I'd prefer if they came out really fast and slowed down as they traveled. Placing them quicker in closer ranges would give them more use, and actually function properly. As they are now, they're not solid enough to be BnB Zelda at top level play as they're just not efficient enough to instantly place in an active or close neutral-game without almost guaranteeing a loss of positioning otherwise.

 

[Blondie.]

WDOOS is good too.

If anything with 'Fireballs', I'd prefer if they came out really fast and slowed down as they traveled. Placing them quicker in closer ranges would give them more use, and actually function properly. As they are now, they're not solid enough to be BnB Zelda at top level play as they're just not efficient enough to instantly place in an active or close neutral-game without almost guaranteeing a loss of positioning otherwise.

Shhh, don't let Zhime or Ryoko hear you say that, otherwise they'll start telling you how you don't understand Zelda's "design" and aren't using the fireballs properly.

After all, look at all these Zelda tournament results. She must be top tier lmao!

 

[Wavebuster]

On second check, I see that nayru's invincibility comes out on frame 5 (ground) and 6 (air) so I guess that's fairly fast, but I know you can't neutral B directly out of shield. Does anyone know how long it takes to do a neutral b after dropping shield?

Invincibility actually comes out frame 4 on ground, 5 in air. There's not much reason to drop shield and nB for speed since that takes longer than doing it from a jump OoS. You can do it directly out of shield if you powershield, though.

Zelda's lack of a standout OoS option is something of an important part of her character from Melee. This alone doesn't debilitate her, but know that standard OoS options are improved on Zelda. Her shieldgrab is faster and more ranged, UpB can be used, kicks can be done faster due to her quicker jumpstart, and Usmash works even better than it did in 1.0/1.1 Melee.

For the complaints about Din's Fire...
Much like the original incarnations of Din's Fire, you can't expect to just spam them with impunity in front of any self aware opponent. Too many people are assuming that being able to get a quick wall of fireballs out is a core part of Zelda's gameplay when her improved A moves are certainly capable of threatening the opponent by themselves. Getting a wall of fireballs out was deemed too easy and braindead which was why it was toned down to begin with at those specific ranges. You can argue that fast characters make an easy time of getting through to Zelda when casting fireballs, but that's the same principle behind fast characters more easily getting around any kind of projectile spam and is not a character specific problem. If you hit the opponent and then set your fireballs during their recovery time to maintain your advantage as intended, it's not an issue.

Learn to fight without Din's Fire first then work it your game, not the other way around.

 

[BJN39]

Ryoko, what do you think about melee zelda kicks? I think this incarnation works fine and can stay, I'm just curious as to what you've been thinking of about them.

 

[Wavebuster]

In all likelihood they are not returning. Back in Melee Zelda needed those kicks as they were since they were pretty much the only validity Zelda had in that game. Fast forward to P:M, and those same kicks became an obvious elephant in the room when bringing all of Zelda's other moves to a good level of utility. Rather than just retain the simplistic Melee kicks offering little room for improvement to the rest of Zelda's moveset as a whole, they were made into an amalgam of Melee and Brawl-like effects to require more finesse to use.

We did try using 100% Melee kicks with current P:M Zelda for curiosity's sake in the past, and ultimately had a good laugh.

 

[Zerudahime]

We did try using 100% Melee kicks with current P:M Zelda for curiosity's sake in the past, and ultimately had a good laugh.

That was quite a treat. I believe it was streamed at one point before 2.6 was released?....We should do it again sometime since the pacs are already out. That way people might see just how strong melee kicks actually are in PM.. xD

 

[BJN39]

I figured they wouldn't likely be returning, considering you haven't put them in yet.

Although something that does bother me about kicks is the whole angle and 1% damage differences, I understand the logic behind some of it, but I'd rather have both fair and bair non-critical sweetspots so the same damage and angle. It makes me not want to use bair even though it's faster because the difference in the sweetspots total to more than it seems.

Tbh it just seems TOO complex, even though old kicks were too simple. Oh well, maybe it's just me.

Also, when changing Zelda from brawl, did she have the same problem as melee Zelda does in her coding where both kicks can stale each other?

 

[Zerudahime]

well...the intention was to add precision to the move hence the damage changes with the criticals while still having a blend of their usage from her previous iterations...so they are still usable in terms of both games. It does take some getting used to but my personal preference id say are the current kicks. I definitely see where you are coming from in terms of the complexities. It's kind of meant to separate zelda mains from zelda players/secondaries the way that i see it. Its going to depend on how well you know the character and are able to land them vs just throwing them out there and hoping they run into them though.

The superheel is definitely one her her best additions to bair/fair. Also BJN, if you start to feel cautious about using bair, you can actually start hitting with different kicks consecutively to deal high damage with them. The BKB was increased on bair superheel to prevent double superheels doing 42% damage in 2 hits but you are able to do 17% + 21% hitting with the sweet>supersweet.

Have you looked into using different parts of the move for kick combos? It works out pretty nicely once u can get the timing down. Nice damage building and shield damage if you connect on shield.

 

[Nausicaa]

Learn to fight without Din's Fire first then work it your game, not the other way around.

thisthisthisthisthsithisthis

WDOOS is still the best though.

 

[BJN39]

well...the intention was to add precision to the move hence the damage changes with the criticals while still having a blend of their usage from her previous iterations...so they are still usable in terms of both games. It does take some getting used to but my personal preference id say are the current kicks. I definitely see where you are coming from in terms of the complexities. It's kind of meant to separate zelda mains from zelda players/secondaries the way that i see it. Its going to depend on how well you know the character and are able to land them vs just throwing them out there and hoping they run into them though.

The superheel is definitely one her her best additions to bair/fair. Also BJN, if you start to feel cautious about using bair, you can actually start hitting with different kicks consecutively to deal high damage with them. The BKB was increased on bair superheel to prevent double superheels doing 42% damage in 2 hits but you are able to do 17% + 21% hitting with the sweet>supersweet.

Have you looked into using different parts of the move for kick combos? It works out pretty nicely once u can get the timing down. Nice damage building and shield damage if you connect on shield.

I'm a bit confused, I just meant this: v

Fair:
Critical - 22% (angle = around 35)
Sweet - 18% (angle = around 40)
Electric flub - 15%

Bair:
Critical - 21% (angle = around 40 but uses a "sakurai angle", so it can be way higher)
Sweet - 17% (same as critical^)
Electric flub - 14%

See how much of a difference the two moves have statistically? This is what I was talking about complexity wise. I just thought it would be fine for them to both do = damages on the electric hits and KBs. It's not really that big of a problem though. *Shrugs*
I agree though, super heel rocks, because it's like brawl power but can hit during a competetive battle.

Also, now I really wanna try out finding possible followups to Sourspot LKs. Like maybe: close to the ground > Sourspot > L-Cancel > Up tilt maybe works at like med-high %s.

 

[Zerudahime]

Sorry if I caused confusion that wasnt my intention at all. Maybe I can try to clarify.
I was merely pointing out how the damage correlates to the precision that the user has when they actually connect with the kicks as far as a design standpoint.
The damage gets rewarded based on the sizes/how soon you connect with the kick and the uses that you have for the different hits. So something like electric flub>sweet or sweet>critical works depending on the situation. does that help? Just wanted to point out the combo illustration with them as well.

 

[BJN39]

Yeah I think that cleared up my confusion. It does make since I guess that Bair might do 1% less considering it's easier to land. I didn't think of that a t first.

Also, what do you guys think of Mewtwo? Do you suppose the infamous "Zelda vs M2" < MU will be anything in P:M?

 

[Zerudahime]

i love the m2 vs zelda mu but its surprisingly hard for zelda bc of his tilts and quick teleports, its reaaaaaally fun tho. Zelda can do well with kicks tho bc m2 has such a large body area and she can kick him easily...but i cant wait until he gets out there to see some vidz.

 

[BJN39]

I'm just ready to see Zelda vs Mewtwo arguements de-rail threads again.

 

[Arcalyth]

I learned Naryu's ATs (land-canceling and b-reversing) and started using Farore's Wind OoS and now my Zelda is so much better

Also whoever said to learn how to play Zelda without Din's first is completely right. That's how I've been learning and I'm glad that's how I've been learning. There's an attitude that it's supposed to be the answer to all of her problems and that's just wrong... jab, ftilt, and SH double fair/bair are too good combined with her specials. She just requires thought.

I still don't know how to relieve pressure though. And in general I overcommit with all of my characters which is especially detrimental to Zelda

Edit: using dins out of any aerial is good because you keep momentum. SH Dins to carry momentum or SH aerial>din's fire to maintain advantage is good. practice dins control by rolling the control stick as you place them, you get bigger fireballs that cover more options and are placed more precisely to actually hit people

 

[Nausicaa]

I learned Naryu's ATs (land-canceling and b-reversing) and started using Farore's Wind OoS and now my Zelda is so much better

Also whoever said to learn how to play Zelda without Din's first is completely right.

I still don't know how to relieve pressure though. And in general I overcommit with all of my characters which is especially detrimental to Zelda

Good, kind of essential stuff there to just start doing... you must be crazy!

Everyone said that I think. haha

Grab, F-tilt, Jab, U-tilt, N-air, Naryu's, she has a LOT of good GTFO options that convert into things. People should be vary scared to apply excessive pressure to you.
Note: Don't play defensively. Offense is your defense. You're not best of running away like a Falcon, if they're close to you (which they probably are kind of when pressuring you) then good, that's where YOU want to be, CLOSE to them. Attack them. :D

 

[jtm94]

Hey all! New here, just wanted to get into all the Zelda talk. I lurked over the past few pages to get some ideas on how to play her more effectively.

I pretty much just got into trying to be competitive and Zelda is for sure my goto main. I haven't faced a ton of experienced players, but I do enjoy that some people don't know how to handle the matchup and hate Zelda immensely because they get the impression that Din's Fire is "campy" and Naryu's is "spammy."

I've been curious as the how a lot of matchups go with Zelda, like good MUs or bad MUs. I saw a few speaking of Bowser, I really enjoy facing any large character with Zelda just because they are so easy to land hits on and juggle, but if they are piloted by a good player they KO Zelda at exceedingly low percents... I don't know how the MU usually goes, but one of my friend's is really good with Link (his main) and it is really hard to find the right approach that can get through boomerangs, bombs, AND arrows without teleporting into a punish. I've been trying to let him come to me and if he doesn't approach set up Din's Fire traps, but after facing this guy many times he can play around Din's like no ones business.

I also wanna thank ZHime, Wavebuster, etc. for all the input and expertise on the character. I've watched lots of combo videos and the stuff that can be done with Zelda is dirty. I typically don't try to play flashy though unless I am rolling off of built momentum and my opponent starts playing sloppy. I play Zelda like a chess piece and wait until the right moments to strike and then capitalize on that strike. My main approaches are either a teleport into the other player or I just try to dash attack into them typically allowing you to dash attack again then nair into uair juggles or fair/bair off stage where I set up Din's Fire for their return and then punish once they hit it.

Well anyways, that's my intro I guess. I look forward to being a part of future conversations! (:

 

[Arcalyth]

don't know how the MU usually goes, but one of my friend's is really good with Link (his main) and it is really hard to find the right approach that can get through boomerangs, bombs, AND arrows without teleporting into a punish.

I had trouble with Link until I learned land-canceled Naryu's Love, now the matchup is SIGNIFICANTLY easier. Link sucks at comboing you and you're great at comboing him. Kick him in the face.

 

[jtm94]

Just gett

I had trouble with Link until I learned land-canceled Naryu's Love, now the matchup is SIGNIFICANTLY easier. Link sucks at comboing you and you're great at comboing him. Kick him in the face.

Just getting into the lingo. What is land-cancelled Naryu's Love exactly? Using Love to land, L cancelling Love or...?
And why did it help with the matchup so much??

I also hate that Link's dair, uair and usmash all have pretty good reach and are fast so it's hard to juggle at high %s when they go so high they get out of helpless fall and stab me in the face, I've become accustomed to moving to the side at the last moment after leading them into using dair and then just kicking for the KO.

 

[Arcalyth]

Just gett
Just getting into the lingo. What is land-cancelled Naryu's Love exactly? Using Love to land, L cancelling Love or...?
And why did it help with the matchup so much??

To execute land-canceled nayru's love, you must land with the move after the attack frames end (frame 28+). This is easiest to demonstrate jumping then immediately pressing B - when Zelda lands, she will have significant lag. Do a full hop and then press B, when Zelda lands, you can act much faster. It helps the matchup because Naryu's Love is a reflector, and by running and doing land-canceled Nayru's, you have a /mobile/ reflector that you can combo out of.

If you can't figure it out, I'll try to find a video or I'll send you a replay of what I'm talking about.

 

[jtm94]

Ahhh, I got it. Is there any special moment or fastfall I need to think about with it?
I was just watching a set by Blondie. against Toon Link and I think I get the concept, it definitely seemed much faster and you can just keep hopping + Naryu's Love to have a mobile reflector. It also solves all of my issues of being punished by a predicted Love that I can't act out of immediately. Thanks!

 

[Arcalyth]

The only moment you really have to think about is the minimum required height to get all 28 frames in before landing. If you're too early, you'll have the usual landing lag and you'll likely get punished. Try to find the earliest possible height that you can use Nayru's and still get the land cancel. Glad I could help

 

[jtm94]

The only moment you really have to think about is the minimum required height to get all 28 frames in before landing. If you're too early, you'll have the usual landing lag and you'll likely get punished. Try to find the earliest possible height that you can use Nayru's and still get the land cancel. Glad I could help

Alright, pretty nifty stuff.
One more thing I was wondering about Naryu's Love is how do you Love jump?
Sorry to flood the thread with noob posts >.< I'm working on being decent enough to top local tourneys.

 

[Arcalyth]

Alright, pretty nifty stuff.
One more thing I was wondering about Naryu's Love is how do you Love jump?
Sorry to flood the thread with noob posts >.< I'm working on being decent enough to top local tourneys.

It's okay! Ask as many questions as you wish, because it helps other players as well

Love Jump is performed by double-jumping and using Nayru's simultaneously, immediately out of hitstun. Eventually you'll have an intuitive feeling on when you'll be out of hitstun and this technique will become easier to perform. (Just to clarify, hitstun is the time after you get hit where you are unable to perform any action except DI and/or get combo'd more)

 

[Rizner]

Hey all! New here, just wanted to get into all the Zelda talk. I lurked over the past few pages to get some ideas on how to play her more effectively.

I pretty much just got into trying to be competitive and Zelda is for sure my goto main. I haven't faced a ton of experienced players, but I do enjoy that some people don't know how to handle the matchup and hate Zelda immensely because they get the impression that Din's Fire is "campy" and Naryu's is "spammy."

I've been curious as the how a lot of matchups go with Zelda, like good MUs or bad MUs. I saw a few speaking of Bowser, I really enjoy facing any large character with Zelda just because they are so easy to land hits on and juggle, but if they are piloted by a good player they KO Zelda at exceedingly low percents... I don't know how the MU usually goes, but one of my friend's is really good with Link (his main) and it is really hard to find the right approach that can get through boomerangs, bombs, AND arrows without teleporting into a punish. I've been trying to let him come to me and if he doesn't approach set up Din's Fire traps, but after facing this guy many times he can play around Din's like no ones business.

I also wanna thank ZHime, Wavebuster, etc. for all the input and expertise on the character. I've watched lots of combo videos and the stuff that can be done with Zelda is dirty. I typically don't try to play flashy though unless I am rolling off of built momentum and my opponent starts playing sloppy. I play Zelda like a chess piece and wait until the right moments to strike and then capitalize on that strike. My main approaches are either a teleport into the other player or I just try to dash attack into them typically allowing you to dash attack again then nair into uair juggles or fair/bair off stage where I set up Din's Fire for their return and then punish once they hit it.

Well anyways, that's my intro I guess. I look forward to being a part of future conversations! (:

You have to be careful about too much dash attack - especially against someone like Bowser. Some opponents can couch cancel the first and punish you for it, our just shield grab.

Also, welcome to the Zelda boards.

 

[Wavebuster]

Bair:
Critical - 21% (angle = around 40 but uses a "sakurai angle", so it can be way higher)

In this game, the sakurai angle is equivalent to a natural 45 unless KB is extremely low (falco's lasers, but never zelda's kicks). You're thinking of Brawl, where DI potential is higher and higher still when moves connect as air hits.

 

[BJN39]

^ Actually, yeah. I was. Embarrass


On another subject, how many of you guys played smash before P:M? If so, which one(s)?

 

[Sarix]

^ Actually, yeah. I was. Embarrass


On another subject, how many of you guys played smash before P:M? If so, which one(s)?

I played Brawl. And it honestly made me almost drop Smash completely with disgust at the design.