Zelda Social Thread

[Nausicaa]

Arcalyth, Is D-Smash parallel to F-Tilt in your game practicality/BnB?
Or more like U-Tilt-style 'niche' but a good niche?
I just intuitively didn't gravitate to it because I like staying on people's faces, and it's all like 'NO'

 

[Blondie.]

I personally don't use it too often for a couple reasons.

It can be CC'd at a relatively high percent iirc. It has relatively low damage and knockback, so it's not like a kill move or anything. And it has literally no followups because of the angle it sends at.

However, it is really useful in those situations where you are in kinda an awkward position and need to get something off fast. It's her only fast CQC move, so it is really good if you need to get someone off of you. But if you have time to get another move like jab, ftilt, grab, nayru's, those all have much better combo potential.

As far as tech-chasing with dsmash, that can work well, but again, if you feel like you have time to get another move off, you can get much better followups. In other words, I like dsmash, but I use it more as like a last resort type move.

I really like it though for edge guarding because her legs are invincible and I also like using it to get early kills on fast fallers with bad recoveries (looking at you Falco and Falcon).

 

[Arcalyth]

Arcalyth, Is D-Smash parallel to F-Tilt in your game practicality/BnB?
Or more like U-Tilt-style 'niche' but a good niche?
I just intuitively didn't gravitate to it because I like staying on people's faces, and it's all like 'NO'

It's a good "get-off-me", good to set up an advantage for din's zoning, great at gimping low recoveries as well. but not as BnB as ftilt, definitely more of a niche thing imo. All of Zelda's moves are pretty situational. It's not meant for comboing. combo with literally any of her other kicks

Edit: Ryoko's thread says it comes out on frame 4 and has invulnerability on her front leg so there's that

 

[jtm94]

I don't know how I feel about the tilts honestly, but I do love dsmash. Dsmash is just so fast that it is good to clank some projectiles, ganon or falco side Bs, and just edgeguarding/pressure relief.

at low percents you can kinda juggle using f and b tilt against characters of appropriate gravity. And the ftilt is pretty fast, but it sends at a really stupid angle for me and you have to hit it in an exact location in order to follow up with bair for a combo. I

really have been trying to progress my Zelda, but I feel like incorporating teleport is the only way to fully perfect the combo game. I've been using ftilts or usmash into nair as a weak combo, but nair sends at such a displeasing angle that I really can't stand. You can kind of control it, but for me it just shoots randomly to the side meaning you have to do some tech chase or other read in order to follow up the combo.

Also, I don't know how to use utilt, at all. My friend is really good at P:M, and he can't even think of a consistent use for it. It kinda pokes through platforms and edges, but dsmash is so much faster and for platforms I can short hop nair or uair. I see the potential for anti-air use, but it just doesn't work well for me.

Lastly, been getting my Love Jumps, land-cancelled Naryu's, and b reverses down. They're really nice for mixing up my air movement so I don't get punished every time and have some approach options.

 

[M@v]

Hi everyone! I thought I should finally post here. Some of you may have seen my zelda already on Xanadu's weekly livestream as I'm usually on it almost every time.

 

[himemiya]

Hi everyone! I thought I should finally post here. Some of you may have seen my zelda already on Xanadu's weekly livestream as I'm usually on it almost every time.

I don't, lol. Then again I don't watch vg boot camp's stream all the time. Welcome anyways!

 

[Nausicaa]

jtrn94 - U-tilt kills everything and combos for free.

The only GTFO-style use I've had for D-Smash is like... landing with N-air hitting them and they DI to the side and using it there, or if they're a floater then Up-B to pop them up a bit towards a platform and D-Smash on the platform to send them off-stage since not much else would connect off the WL. :/
Why GTFO with D-Smash when you have Naryu's otherwise? I guess for more kill % type of situations against Fast Fallers?

 

[Wavebuster]

Dsmash is safer than Nayru's (not Naryu's) and, at mid/high damages, will knock them away further. Dsmash hits on the same frame grounded Nayru's goes invulnerable so speed is a bit fuzzy and functionally identical.

 

[Cirno777]

DANG! I actually got 5th/30 at WHOBO 5!!!

Highest Zelda placing at a national!? I think so

Just checking out the zelda boards, been playing her since 2.1 but Im new to the boards and wanted to take a look around.... and Id just like to say......Yeah okay. Don't think s highly of yourself, there are a couple of Zeldas I know of that would completely demolish you in a heartbeat. No offense or anything, but your gloating all over the forums is very unnecessary. I would like to see you VS the known top Zeldas and see how that goes. I saw a few, and I highly doubt your skills are superior than those. Prove everyone wrong then you can gloat like a ***** all you want. BUT if it means so much to you, kudos for your achievement

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Get ****in wrecked.


Zhime/Salem do the best in a much harder region. Zelda is pretty fraudulent, and someone who has minimum exp vs her are going to get whooped, i.e. Most of TX, the USA, and parts of lower China.
Hell, I could use Zelda for 45 seconds and be about as competent as you. In fact, I'll most likely throw up when I see your replays on YouTube because of the sheer childlike button mashing I know was used to fraud your way through bracket.

 

[necko kat]

Just checking out the zelda boards, been playing her since 2.1 but Im new to the boards and wanted to take a look around.... and Id just like to say......Yeah okay. Don't think s highly of yourself, there are a couple of Zeldas I know of that would completely demolish you in a heartbeat. No offense or anything, but your gloating all over the forums is very unnecessary. I would like to see you VS the known top Zeldas and see how that goes. I saw a few, and I highly doubt your skills are superior than those. Prove everyone wrong then you can gloat like a ***** all you want. BUT if it means so much to you, kudos for your achievement

Get ****in wrecked.

Zhime/Salem do the best in a much harder region. Zelda is pretty fraudulent, and someone who has minimum exp vs her are going to get whooped, i.e. Most of TX, the USA, and parts of lower China.
Hell, I could use Zelda for 45 seconds and be about as competent as you. In fact, I'll most likely throw up when I see your replays on YouTube because of the sheer childlike button mashing I know was used to fraud your way through bracket.

This.


Disqo dont even bother, Blondie basically tries to do random techs that he sees Zhime, Ryoko, or Salem do fails and says it doesnt work. Really Scrubbish imo.

 

[Blondie.]

Oh, sorry if it seemed like I was gloating. Didn't mean to come off that way.

Although, I'm not entirely sure why you guys are all of a sudden coming off this way. I don't think the way I play is fraudulent at all. Ya, Zelda is pretty fraudulent, but I've been using her for a long time now, and the way I've developed her is able to work against a lot of players.

I think you are trolling Disqo, cause I'm not really sure why you would go off like that... I never said anything bad about you. I certainly don't button mash lmao! I've been playing Brawl competitively for like 2 years now, and P:M for like 5 months. I know I'm not top player material, but you're not much better to be honest. How do you think Texas is so much weaker than anywhere else?

I'll stop posting if you guys are so offended. I was just happy I did well. I try to simply help the Zelda metagame all I can and show you what I'm doing is working. I've never bragged to anyone or even acted like I knew better (except once to Naussica, but that's cause he was kinda coming off like a jerk, but then he started acting nicer, and so did I). I'm not a huge fan of the way Zhime and Ryoko play cause I think it's pretty limited in the long run, but I'm not trying to act like I'm better than them. They are definitely better than me at this point.

Again, sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to.

 

[Nausicaa]

That was for sure uncalled for... though the simple friendly reminder from Cirno was appropriate, the rest was out-of-hand.
I assume some of that stems more from the convos on the last page where myself/others discussed the Zelda vs ROB stuff, and you (Blondie) 'could' have seemed defensive about it (mainly just johning about how it's a good ROB and stuff doesn't work/not picking up on what we were trying to explain)

If that's the case, then you other 2 should go pester everyone from Strongbad to Dazrin who have similar reactions to comments about them. lol

In other news, just the fact that most Zelda players (even the really notable ones that are considered 'good' by the mainstream public) don't have pivot F-Tilt and Jab as a simple action > single dash back > BnB in their neutral AND combo game, shows that the majority of them are still behind in meta-game development relative to where they should be by NOW.
Like really, the moment people start to apply the ACTUAL Bread-and-Butter fundamentals to the mental and technical game, the stuff that WILL be a part of the final-meta, rather than simply where the meta-game is through the last year of conditioning a fortress of game-play into their systems, the moment they'll excel and break this meta-game.
The mainstream players are actually pretty bad at this game, and if someone took a break for a month, and came back to it after... oddly enough they would probably double in level of play as an individual simply from their OWN resetting.
You could just look at multiple 'good' players with any character, and try and compared similarities in play. There's almost no cross-over. Apply every part of each persons development and BAM, you would HAVE something there.
But nah, just play until you run yourselves into the ground through mental sustaining of your hard-conditions.
Typical smashers. lol

 

[Blondie.]

Ya, actually I really wanted to thank you for your critiques Naussica. Even though I was pretty defensive at first, I started applying what you said about having a stronger ground game at my groups weekly practice session, and it was working really well. I'll definitely keep working on it.

I really like that about the pivot ftilt and jab. That does sound like it could be a strong neutral game tool. Do you have any other advice?

 

[Nausicaa]

I could really just copy-paste what I JUST posted in the Diddy thread...
I'll get it 1 sec.

Edit:

This and probably more directly-related to Zelda, the post BEFORE this one.

Don't worry about defensiveness/thanks.

1) It's not exactly something you didn't know/wouldn't do eventually anyway. You're solid enough and aware enough that you'll do what you need to do, when you need to do it. Not 'in-game' so much as in the development OF your game. The community is much the same, everyone is developing at excessively 'slow' rates, but only comparably to how 'quickly' they COULD develop the meta-game. That 'potential' is only accessible through constant collective conscious attention to what makes people/the community, improve. Me pointing crap like this out (how awareness of what's actually happening is more important then the actions themselves), when it's obvious and technically true in all ways, can be very blunt and hard to hear. Especially for 'developed' players on the forefront of the current meta-game. It can often come across as simply feeling like I'm saying they suck or something. haha

2) We're on the same team, and it's just a really weird concept that the most empathetic thing I could do is to blatantly point out everyone's 'flaws' or 'processes' and 'paths' which unfortunately, can EASILY be taken poorly out-of-context. Since it can be so very personal when it's about mental contents, given how little anybody actually focuses ON mental-awareness (it's not something you can't physically see, so it's not exactly easy to pay attention to/discuss at that). Having something 'revealing' pointed out can leave people feeling 'naked' in a way, which isn't comforting and quite unfamiliar, though really, it's never something that is NOT obvious to all, it's simply the calling-out of it that can leave people feeling attacked/hurt, and of course feel like it's uncalled for, since it is uncalled for, but only because that's not actually what the intention is/what's happening.

tl;dr Anything and everything I say doesn't need to be said, it's all stuff anyone and everyone ALREADY knows. I just have a knack for seeing it clearly, and an ability to put it in an explainable/presentable way for people to work with... so people can KNOW what they already 'know'. haha



^This is seriously a massive disclaimer that I could easily have below 85%ish of my posts on the public forums, and I'm sure 90% of the people who have read my posts about critique-type things could benefit reading it to know where I'm coming from.

In other news, those Diddy-topic quotes are basically all I have to offer, and it universally applies to everything Smash-related or not. Hope it helps, and hope it makes sense. That's usually the stuff that goes either WAY over people's heads, or really hits a nerve with people if they don't know where I'm coming from/why I'm posting it, but you should be able to get a lot from it.

 

[Blondie.]

Ya, I get what you mean man. It can seem like you're just attacking people when they hear it if they don't really know where you're coming from.

I appreciate the call-out on my excessive aerial usage. It made me open my eyes a little. Sometimes that's all someone needs to hear. That's why critiques are so good! I'm gonna really work on this stuff. I appreciate all the tips man!

 

[Zerudahime]

In other news, just the fact that most Zelda players (even the really notable ones that are considered 'good' by the mainstream public) don't have pivot F-Tilt and Jab as a simple action > single dash back > BnB in their neutral AND combo game, shows that the majority of them are still behind in meta-game development relative to where they should be by NOW.
Like really, the moment people start to apply the ACTUAL Bread-and-Butter fundamentals to the mental and technical game, the stuff that WILL be a part of the final-meta, rather than simply where the meta-game is through the last year of conditioning a fortress of game-play into their systems, the moment they'll excel and break this meta-game.

Well. Assuming that I am one of those ominous Zelda players that has been continually referred to as a mainstream Zelda....maybe people arent looking at things closely enough.

watch?v=Wi4TGFCuk7M

those ****'s are the letters F C u k....capitalization does matter lol
should be called ''Zelda can jab''
convenient editing smashboards........ >,>

Not saying I'm supporting some of the conduct in this thread, but I think everyone should do more homework on her neutrals. They're good.

 

[BJN39]

I agree, her neutrals are really good, I wish I remembered to use them more.

I mean, spaced Jab is like, my favorite edge-guard against Fox/Falco/Wolf. I learn it worked in Melee when I saw a replay of Cosmo using it. It works even better in P:M

 

[Blondie.]

Wow, I'm really surprised I overlooked pivoting. It looks like it could solve A LOT of the problems I've been feeling Zelda has.

Please Zelda mains, watch this and apply it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuCCmymFpMU

It is seriously useful. Like seriously (Thanks for mentioning it Naussica)

I haven't practiced it yet (I'll do that sometime this week after I finish mid terms), but I can imagine pivot ftilt, pivot jab, pivot utilt, and pivot fsmash all being ridiculously good. I don't know how hard pivoting is to do consistently, but it seemed like ARC had it down, so it is probably do-able in a competitive environment.

 

[Nausicaa]

Yeah, and to think... Zelda doesn't exactly have better pivot-game a LOT of other characters... lol
There are very few Melee players who incorporate it, and those who do have it as natural option abuse it a lot, look at Marth pivot-grabs as the most common example universally used.
Watch Hax play Melee for a pretty mainstream example of it used at top-level play, occasionally you can see it elsewhere, but he spams it. I don't think there's a top-level Luigi in mainstream Melee, but it's BnB to his game too.
I don't think there's a 'TAS' video without a pivot, and yet it's easier than WDing technically, which is pretty funny in itself.

lol editing on Smashboards.
I'll check that out Zerudahime.

 

[Zerudahime]

Quick note,

That video I posted illustrates something interesting with Zelda and pivot.
The pivot she has will increase her grab range, and allows for her ''triforce grab''.
The grab range is in a triangle formation, lasts for 3 frames, and will grab a low to the ground opponent.
Take notes of the sparkle range when you practice it. (they were enhanced in 2.6b for more accuracy than the video depicts.)

 

[Blondie.]

@zhime Pivot grab is a different technique in PM than melee. Pivot grabbing is an incorporated different move, while pivoting in melee is a bit different.

Pivot grabbing is really good though. If you read someones approach (pretty easy to do against spacies) you can grab them right out of a nair. I only wish it was a little faster. It's 13 frames I'm pretty sure which is kinda slow, but understandable for the extra range.

@naussica Having not played melee, I'm not sure how hard it is, but is pivot utilt doable? I would abuse the hell outta that if I could learn it.

 

[Zerudahime]

@blondie I didnt realize there was a distinction between pivot-grabbing and pivot>whatever else you want? They both include pivots to me...lol. But the 3 frames is the grab duration. Thats what I was talking about. While on the subject of pivots, I just wanted everyone here to be aware that triforce grabbing does exist.

 

[Blondie.]

For anyone unaware of what zhime is referring to

Normal standing grab > http://i.imgur.com/300Q4.gif

Pivot grab > http://i.imgur.com/h6mVdME.gif

Normal grab lasts from frame 9-11. Pivot grab is frame 13-15. They both last a total of 3 frames, so there is no advantage there, but as you can see, pivot grab has significantly more range and you can do it out of a retreating run. Pivot grabbing is much slower though, so I typically only use it for reads.

 

[Arcalyth]

I think there's some confusion between "pivot grab" and "turn grab" because Melee pivoting is different than Brawl pivoting.

I call the Melee pivot "pivoting" and the Brawl dashturn (which also exists in Melee but doesn't have RAR or turngrab etc out of it) "dashturn." I can't come up with better names lol.

turngrab is really good, like Zhime said it can grab low targets (SQUIRTLE!!!) and the range is insane

I don't know how viable things like pivot>tilt are simply because of the technicality of it, but tech skill never stopped anyone from doing things in melee. Most Zeldas I see don't use jab or ftilt enough as it is, pivots and turns aside.

---

Last night I was practicing combos with Zelda. You can kill a good portion of the cast from 0% with just two grabs. For example, on Ike: combo ftilt/utilt into dair to set up a tech chase scenario, follow the tech chase, regrab, combo into lightning kick for the KO. Of course there are many nuances and methods of mitigating Zelda's comboing, but it just goes to show how ridiculous her punish game is, and how methodically diabolical an intellectual Zelda can be. She takes stocks VERY quickly and VERY efficiently when you make 100% of the reads.

 

[Blondie.]

Oh man, pivot grabbing on squirtle sounds useful. That little guy can be such a pain.

I don't know if I'm doing it wrong, but I have a hard time getting good combos with Zelda. It seems like with good DI, pretty much everything can be escaped. One of my bnb combos I use at low percent is nayrus or ftilt > upsmash > uair. Works on practically the whole cast even with DI and gets a good 40-50 damage. However after that, I have a real hard time getting any combos. If they DI your throws properly (which shouldnt be to hard cause they're all pretty slow) you can't consistently follow them up. I do REALLY like land cancelled nayru > fair as a mid percent kill combo. Works on most of the cast and is super deadly.

Edit: my bad, turn grabbing squirtle. Coming from brawl, I'm so used to just calling it pivot grabbing.

 

[Zerudahime]

That grab gif is actually inaccurate.
This is the current correct grab.
http://i.imgur.com/h6mVdME.gif

Triforce grab ^
learn it, use it, love it.

(That thread needs to be updated btw, don't rely on it heavily)

 

[Blondie.]

That grab gif is actually inaccurate.
This is the current correct grab.
http://i.imgur.com/h6mVdME.gif

Triforce grab ^
learn it, use it, love it.

Oh wow, cool. I had no idea that was changed. I'll edit that right away.

Does it still have the same horizontal reach, or was that sacrificed for more vertical reach?

 

[Zerudahime]

yeah, its roughly the same.

 

[Nausicaa]

Pivots in PM and Melee are identical, they're just easier in PM (more timing lee-way), and that induces a Standing Grab animation.
There's Dash-Turn-Around stuff which came from Brawl, and there's a different Grab animation for that entirely.

Yes you can pivot tilts, and anything else that you could do from a Standing animation (Jumps, Smashes, Jabs, etc)

 

[Blondie.]

Pivots in PM and Melee are identical, they're just easier in PM (more timing lee-way), and that induces a Standing Grab animation.
There's Dash-Turn-Around stuff which came from Brawl, and there's a different Grab animation for that entirely.

Yes you can pivot tilts, and anything else that you could do from a Standing animation (Jumps, Smashes, Jabs, etc)

Yes, I realize it's possible, but just how hard to perform is a pivot utilt or ftilt? Like could you do them consistently enough to perform it in tournament?

You're right, I don't see too many melee players incorporate pivots, but it seems extremely useful in the neutral, especially with a character like marth. I can imagine they would be really useful in the marth v fox mu.

 

[Nausicaa]

I have about a 95% or more success rate when doing pivots of any kind. It's probably as consistent as WDing or whatever, along with other 'normal' stuff at least...
It's not unheard of, but it's rare to see people bother with it in the publicly view-able/mainstream community.
If people put as much effort into Pivoting consistently as they did WDing, they would clearly understand how much more difficult it is to do things like WD-OOS then it is to Pivot D-Tilt. haha

 

[Blondie.]

I just watched a vid of ARC (the guy who made that tutorial), and he uses pivots really well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-LHEn3p5PY&feature=youtube_gdata_player

This is definitely giving me some new inspiration. I'm gonna work hard on this when I get time.

 

[Nausicaa]

The first 2 stocks he took were pivot-tipper F-smash, including one at 2:54
Which is the first time I've seen another person use a forward Dash>same direction F-Smash pivot and land a tipper out of it.
Really refreshing to know there's something publicly view-able that's a little outside the mainstream mass meta-game. Even if it's simply the application of a small tool for efficiency sake.
I totally thought he was gonna do a Pivot U-Tilt for the kill at 7:34, but he didn't, then I thought he was gonna do the Pivot-F-Smash immediately after, but didn't Pivot. I would've <3'd 10 times over.
Then he just slightly over-extended around 10:16.
So good to see someone consistently applying this in-game.
Thanks for linking that. Always good to know it exists in the public eye to some extent. :D

Edit: Well I can't get the link to locate the times, so I'll just list them. haha

 

[Blondie.]

Ya, I played ARC about month ago in San Antonio and the guy is scary good. Even in PM. Hopefully he'll pick up PM seriously one day.

Ya those pivot tippers were sexy as hell! But it seems like he only uses pivot grab and pivot fsmash. I didn't see any pivot tilts. If I play him again, I'll try to pick up some pivot tips from him.

 

[Nausicaa]

Things like that free Pivot U-Tilt kill at 7:35 are a lot more difficult to identify than almost everything else regarding Pivots. Given the little meta-game developed around it by such a small player-base, it would be surprising to me if more than 5 players in the greater Smash community would actually be able to catch and connect them actively.

Smash is just a baby still, and there's really only one direction that Pivot-Development can go. It's only just started, so staying ahead of the game is pretty easy in regards to this silly simple technical maneuver.

 

[Blondie.]

Things like that free Pivot U-Tilt kill at 7:35 are a lot more difficult to identify than almost everything else regarding Pivots. Given the little meta-game developed around it by such a small player-base, it would be surprising to me if more than 5 players in the greater Smash community would actually be able to catch and connect them actively.

Smash is just a baby still, and there's really only one direction that Pivot-Development can go. It's only just started, so staying ahead of the game is pretty easy in regards to this silly simple technical maneuver.

So I spent about 15 minutes practicing this today when I had a chance, and it is actually really simple. I can already perform it with like 60% consistency.

The only one I can't get is advancing pivot ftilt. Like I always get fsmash instead cause I can't get to that tilt range fast enough without inputting a smash. Are you able to do forward pivot tilts Naussica?

I can see multiple uses for it, in both neutral and comboing. I'm really looking forward to experimenting with this more.

 

[otheusrex]

can someone post a video of zelda doing all the pivot stuff? I mean when you can do it enough to record an example of it. I'm really intrigued by this pivot talk, but I don't fully understand it yet. Is it a lot better than pressing down to stop a run and then tilting? Also, is pivoting?anything something that you can only do during the initial dash or is it for any part of the dash?

 

[Nausicaa]

^ It's part of the Dash Dance animation itself. If you go into the full Dash animation, you can do a Dash Turn Around, which you can only Grab, and Jump out of (which includes everything you can Jump Cancel, like Grabs, WDs, etc)

There's some videos linked in earlier posts here, one of them is a Tutorial on it. It's for Melee, but it's the same for Project: M> (I actually didn't watch it but I assume it's correct haha)

Blondie
You mean like going the same direction? Dash Left > Tilt Left?
No, I can't do that. Too hard! haha
I can't do it with Jab or other Smashes either. Only Dash Left > F-Smash Left.
I use C-Stick for it, along with other Smashes, and doing it that way will always have you facing the direction you came when initiating the move. F-Smash is the exception since you can C-Stick in either direction, simply enough. With everything else from Grabs to Jumps to Tilts to Jabs to Smashes, I can only do it when Pivoting the opposite direction... makes sense since it's called a 'Pivot' after all.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Oh, sorry if it seemed like I was gloating. Didn't mean to come off that way.

Although, I'm not entirely sure why you guys are all of a sudden coming off this way. I don't think the way I play is fraudulent at all. Ya, Zelda is pretty fraudulent, but I've been using her for a long time now, and the way I've developed her is able to work against a lot of players.

I think you are trolling Disqo, cause I'm not really sure why you would go off like that... I never said anything bad about you. I certainly don't button mash lmao! I've been playing Brawl competitively for like 2 years now, and P:M for like 5 months. I know I'm not top player material, but you're not much better to be honest. How do you think Texas is so much weaker than anywhere else?

I'll stop posting if you guys are so offended. I was just happy I did well. I try to simply help the Zelda metagame all I can and show you what I'm doing is working. I've never bragged to anyone or even acted like I knew better (except once to Naussica, but that's cause he was kinda coming off like a jerk, but then he started acting nicer, and so did I). I'm not a huge fan of the way Zhime and Ryoko play cause I think it's pretty limited in the long run, but I'm not trying to act like I'm better than them. They are definitely better than me at this point.

Again, sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to.

Not much better? Money Match me.