Official Zelda Patch and Changes Discussion Thread

[KarmaCastle]

Anybody find any new options on opponent shields now that increased universal shield stun is now a thing?

The gif I posted literally 5m ago.

Jab's end lag resets precisely as shield stun does. Meaning the opponent has to

a) Take damage
b) Wait until being knocked out of jab range and as a consequence take massive shield damage
c) Jump backwards with frame perfect timing.

Seems pretty nifty. Haven't had extensive testing but it appears to be easier to use against a ledge.

 

[Tohfoo]

The gif I posted literally 5m ago.

Jab's end lag resets precisely as shield stun does. Meaning the opponent has to

a) Take damage
b) Wait until being knocked out of jab range and as a consequence take massive shield damage
c) Jump backwards with frame perfect timing.

Seems pretty nifty. Haven't had extensive testing but it appears to be easier to use against a ledge.

Ah nice find. My bad for not seeing that post.

 

[KarmaCastle]

Ah nice find. My bad for not seeing that post.

No bigs. Didn't mean to come off as aggressive now that I read back over it. I just meant literally 5m ago when you were probably asking in your post haha.

It's not too amazing since it's just jab and 8% at best, but it really limits our opponents. Sort of like a pseudo trap; they're going to have to jump away so we can follow up with a LKick or nair.

Or if they keep shielding we mix it up with a grab. Pretty cool stuff overall, though really simple.

 

[buzzard]

That's a nice discovery. Wouldn't that mean that it works kinda like Zelda's own Luigi fireball pre-nerf? If you shield it, you're likely going to get grabbed. Or am I missing something?

 

[PUK]

That's a nice discovery. Wouldn't that mean that it works kinda like Zelda's own Luigi fireball pre-nerf? If you shield it, you're likely going to get grabbed. Or am I missing something?

Well both are frame 11 moves so yes grab is near guarented after a jab on shield.

 

[buzzard]

An approach for Zelda finally. What kind of sorcery is this!?!?

 

[Katy Parry]

I can't wait to test this out.

 

[firewingpegasus]

Has anyone tested out if the new shield mechanics mess with your ability to OoS the standard Farore's Wind?

It's kind of the main way I KO... so not being able to punish a careless hit on my shield with my Up B is gonna get me really close to raging >_<

Of all the days to forget my 3DS at home T_T work can't end soon enough...

 

[meleebrawler]

Does Phantom Breaker work better with the new shield stun?

 

[Rickster]

Has anyone tested out if the new shield mechanics mess with your ability to OoS the standard Farore's Wind?

It's kind of the main way I KO... so not being able to punish a careless hit on my shield with my Up B is gonna get me really close to raging >_<

Of all the days to forget my 3DS at home T_T work can't end soon enough...

Yes, if my theory is right, Elevators OoS will be harder due to the increased shieldstun.

Does Phantom Breaker work better with the new shield stun?

Well...you used to be able to dodge the second Phantom hit (all variations) but the shield changes fix this.

 

[TTTTTsd]

After finding out Pika is mad safer on shield (stuff like TEN FRAMES SAFER ON AERIALS) I'm done with this game seriously for now until they revert or fix shielding. This is too much for me right now lol.

I'll do friendlies but I'm going to not practice until they make the game more polished. I feel like Zelda Phantom and Ryu Strong Ftilt shouldn't be able to be rolled out of but this is a whole new level of absurd thanks to this new formula. It's just dejecting, I've just started to integrate smart shielding and now it's useless against damn near everyone good.

But Zelda's new shield stuff is kinda cool, I must say. When I use her I'll probably give it a try in casuals and stuff.

 

[firewingpegasus]

So...the new hit stun mechanic actually does make it harder to elevator out of shield, then? It probably wont work to punish a lot of moves now, only the ones with longer ending lag and non-lingering hitboxes... sigh.

That changes the whole way I play... time to practice more death kicks. :/

It is pretty neat that the second hit of the phantom will connect now, though, Rickster

I'll do friendlies but I'm going to not practice until they make the game more polished. I feel like Zelda Phantom and Ryu Strong Ftilt shouldn't be able to be rolled out of but this is a whole new level of absurd thanks to this new formula. It's just dejecting, I've just started to integrate smart shielding and now it's useless against damn near everyone good.

Personally, I always felt that shield was a bit too OP. Maybe this will force people to play a bit more aggressively, considering it's easier to get yourself stuck in shield as much as it is to punish someone for shielding too much. That, or people will just grab a lot more, lol.

The change upsets me because it nerfs my elevator insanely... but I guess it could be a good thing.

 

[AncientCode42]

Wait elevator is useless now?! That just really sucks! First the shield mechanics change, now this? How does this effect Zelda's other moves then? I wonder how F-smash will do on people's shields now. How are the Phantom attacks then? Do Shield Breaker or Strike get any benefits from this? How would Naryu's Love work then?

At least there's punishing people with FW for mistakes they make.

 

[meleebrawler]

Wait elevator is useless now?! That just really sucks! First the shield mechanics change, now this? How does this effect Zelda's other moves then? I wonder how F-smash will do on people's shields now. How are the Phantom attacks then? Do Shield Breaker or Strike get any benefits from this? How would Naryu's Love work then?

At least there's punishing people with FW for mistakes they make.

Y'know powershielding still exists...

 

[KatKit]

"Zelda buff prayer circle". Haha, I swear, the Zelda topics have the best titles!

Anyways, I'm hoping that the universal shield change will benefit her somewhat, even if it's slightly. Other than that, I'm glad her customs got buffed.

 

[Rickster]

Wait elevator is useless now?! That just really sucks! First the shield mechanics change, now this? How does this effect Zelda's other moves then? I wonder how F-smash will do on people's shields now. How are the Phantom attacks then? Do Shield Breaker or Strike get any benefits from this? How would Naryu's Love work then?

At least there's punishing people with FW for mistakes they make.

Elevator is far from useless. It's still a powerful OoS option, we just won't be able to use it like that as much.

 

[AncientCode42]

Y'know powershielding still exists...

Yeah that's true.

Elevator is far from useless. It's still a powerful OoS option, we just won't be able to use it like that as much.

Yeah that is a good point there.

 

[Crudedude]

I thought people were playing differently lol but I find the shield helpful as some of zelda's attacks becomes safer to throw out and people who uses OoS options have to be quicker or just can't punish zelda in time. That said it's a bit sad the pacing is toned down but it just might be a good thing in the long run.

 

[Rebel13]

I'm really hating this change overall, because all the top tiers with their silly frame data are now like completely safe on shield (sheik, pika, etc.). Actually just about everything from every character is now safe on shield. Speaking of which, has anyone tested if sweetspot L-kicks are safe? That might give us a better approach option.......

 

[Valamway]

just about everything from every character is now safe on shield.

That's a huge exaggeration.
It's not like they changed hitlag or endlag or landing lag.
Only shield lag.
The attacker still has to go through those first three, as applicable, where the defender only has a few more frames of shield lag.

Grab OoS and UpBs OoS are still useful, just not on jabs, which they never should have been.
Jabs are supposed to be a safe way to poke at shields.
Smash attacks, and yes even sweetspot LKs, are still very much punishable.

If the WiP formula Shaya came up with is accurate (which it seems to be close), stronger attacks benefit less from this update than weaker ones.
Which is fine, strong attacks should be less safe than weak ones.

The biggest buff this gives that I can think of are the quickest moves of the stronger characters; Ganon and Bowser jab are much safer now than they were, where Sheik's fair being just a few individual frames safer doesn't affect anything because it was already safe to begin with.

 

[Rickster]

Thinkaman did some Phantom testing

Spoiler

You can still avoid the second hit.

Mfw

 

[MadCanard]

Does the new shield stun make falling Nair a safe approach?

 

[BJN39]

Thinkaman did some Phantom testing

Spoiler

You can still avoid the second hit.

Mfw
View attachment 75957

Not surprised. There is way too much time between hits.

How'd we even get on the track that it DID connect on shield?

Also I need to see this Jab shield "pressure" in action, because I find it hard to believe that it can be more than not unsafe on shield.

 

[Lil Puddin]

The update is ultimately a double edged sword. Shields are somewhat nerfed... So... You get the idea.

Overall, I feel this is a nerf for Zelda. Because now she has to perfect shield everything to retaliate against ridiculously fast characters/safe characters. Fighting top tiers has gone from "totally unfun" to "wow this is a headache" on FG now. I mean, I win most of the matches still but perfect shielding EVERY TIME to KEEP CONTROL OF HER VERY LIMITED SPACE? lmao Sack Of Rye pls. I'll be switching over to Peach for the time being until the next update or until I get utterly bored of the Unphased By Battling Princess. The increased shield hitstun greatly benefits Peach and doesn't really slow down her battling pace.

 

[buzzard]

So in the Shields in 1.1.1 thread there was this:

Attacks with an electric attribute apply an additive [?] 0.5x hit lag modifier, these are now also affecting the defender

And according to this, magic attacks (Zelda has a lot of them) have the electric effect. So does this mean that we benefit from that extra hit lag modifier?

 

[Rickster]

So in the Shields in 1.1.1 thread there was this:



And according to this, magic attacks (Zelda has a lot of them) have the electric effect. So does this mean that we benefit from that extra hit lag modifier?

Hmm...I don't think we do. Attacks would "feel" different if we did, right?

Also I'm pretty sure Magic and Electric have been separated in Smash 4. Zelda can hurt yellow Pikmin with her attacks, plus the sound effect is different.

Oh well.

 

[buzzard]

Hmm...I don't think we do. Attacks would "feel" different if we did, right?

Also I'm pretty sure Magic and Electric have been separated in Smash 4. Zelda can hurt yellow Pikmin with her attacks, plus the sound effect is different.

Oh well.

I guess you are right, in that link I posted, in the table below, her attacks don't show up as having an electric effect for Smash 4, only for Melee and Brawl.

That's too bad.

 

[UberMadman]

So apparently ssbwiki has a Zelda buff that isn't listed in the Smashboards patchlist:

• Neutral air's back hits now drag opponents towards the front hits, allowing the move to deal more damage from this position.

I don't know if that's true, but this is decent, right? It should allow more consistent damage off of a downthrow.

 

[Freelance Spy]

So, anyone testing various moves for on shield safety? I have a lot of characters to test O.O

I hope one of you gorls are trying.

 

[buzzard]

What about this?

Oh hm, Zelda's extra 5 frames of safety on toes makes her safe on late-block from all dash grabs/attacks. Hm, that's nontrivial.

I think I don't fully understand what it means.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think I don't fully understand what it means.

Zelda fresh fair/bair now has -11/-9 disadvantage vs. shield on optimal timing respectively.

It used to be -23/-21 disadvantage. Zelda toes benefit more from this change than any other aerial in the game.

It takes the fastest characters 16 frames to dash grab; a couple can dash attack in 12, and many can dash u-smash in ~20.

Before, Zelda got punished hard for kicking a shield unless it was against like, Luigi. Now she won't even get dash grabbed by Sheik or Sonic.

 

[buzzard]

Zelda fresh fair/bair now has -11/-9 disadvantage vs. shield on optimal timing respectively.

It used to be -23/-21 disadvantage. Zelda toes benefit more from this change than any other aerial in the game.

It takes the fastest characters 16 frames to dash grab; a couple can dash attack in 12, and many can dash u-smash in ~20.

Before, Zelda got punished hard for kicking a shield unless it was against like, Luigi. Now she won't even get dash grabbed by Sheik or Sonic.

That's cool. Thanks!!!

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, dair is now only -7 in the best case. That's situationally safe-on-block on some characters.

Not amazing, but we're talking about Zelda here, who has always been critically flawed by her inability to pressure and control the game. This is big news for her.

 

[Rickster]

So apparently ssbwiki has a Zelda buff that isn't listed in the Smashboards patchlist:

• Neutral air's back hits now drag opponents towards the front hits, allowing the move to deal more damage from this position.

I don't know if that's true, but this is decent, right? It should allow more consistent damage off of a downthrow.

I can vouch for this. Nearly every Nair I did yesterday had this effect, and it was screwing up my Nair>Bair strings, lol.

So, anyone testing various moves for on shield safety? I have a lot of characters to test O.O

I hope one of you gorls are trying.

We have, a little bit. So far the only significant changes are that Kicks and Fsmash are safer on block. I believe Jab also gives us a small advantage on shield, too (previously it was +-0).

Also, shielding any part of Fsmash locks you in shield, so it's better for shield pressuring now. Most of our shield pressure strings start with Jab and end with an Fsmash, Dsmash, or Kick.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Ok so I'm not the only one who got people flying forward during Nairs lol. But this isn't much of a buff cause it makes Nair>Bair weird and doing the Zeldawful train harder if you weren't facing the ledge direction already

 

[BJN39]

The NAir thing was done in 1.0.8. When the damages got swapped, so did the hit priority. Pre-1.0.8 purposefully favored the 2% back hits. When they gave the front hits the better damage, they swapped the priority to still favor the 2% hits.

Also I hadn't realized just what level of improvement of safety LKs had gotten. That's interesting.

Those values only apply to an almost instant landing after the hit on shield though. The frame disadvantage is still pretty atrocious in other situations. Still, some incentive to try using LKs, maybe?

 

[Rickster]

I also heard there was some new stuff involving aerial momentum and hitlag...wonder if it will affect us any.

 

[Crudele]

Also, shielding any part of Fsmash locks you in shield, so it's better for shield pressuring now. Most of our shield pressure strings start with Jab and end with an Fsmash, Dsmash, or Kick.

Not gonna lie, I'm pretty sure I used to catch a lot of folks dropping shield early during fsmash because of MU inexperience and stuff. I haven't played too much of the new patch, would that not work anymore?

 

[Rickster]

Not gonna lie, I'm pretty sure I used to catch a lot of folks dropping shield early during fsmash because of MU inexperience and stuff. I haven't played too much of the new patch, would that not work anymore?

Yep, that's gone. If you let go of shield you're still locked into it until the move finishes.

The good thing is that it became a better shield pressure tool. Used to, if you saw your shield was low, you could drop it and take the hit. Not anymore. Add in the fact that the move is safer in general, and it's actually not that bad of a change.

Besides, anyone who knows at least a little about Zelda will know about Fsmash being multihit. We've been spamming it as a spacing option for 3 games now, lol.

 

[CNMNE]

So i get from this discussion pretty much what we have been able to determine for every charcter: bc shieldstun increased, any stupid ridonk strong move Zelda got is pretty much safe on shield. So, in theory, fastfall bair, one pixel off the ground should have enough kb to keep us in control, amirite? (and fsmash, but yeah, we been chidori'ing forever)

...sounds a little lackluster.

Any of us ladies considered the nair options against an opponent shielding on a platform? sounds like with proper timing and/or placement, we can whittle down shield? or even potentially Heaven Kick of F-air them, ON their shield, and push them off said platform, leading to jab reset?

its a stretch, but cmon sisters, Zelda is literally all about conforming to crappy conditions