Official Zelda Patch and Changes Discussion Thread

[theburningstars]

i will be praying for the next four days straight for all of us



just gotta lieve in our queen, guys

 

[buzzard]

I will pray hard because we're getting nerfed before we're buffed and you all know it!

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

This is probably already in this thread, but... Sakurai please:

There's still so many buffs I want for Zelda.

 

[Furret]

I will pray hard because we're getting nerfed before we're buffed and you all know it!

after all

Bottom
H:
I:
J:

there isn't a k tier yet

 

[buzzard]

after all

there isn't a k tier yet

Well they did say that they didn't want to have single character tiers but if they did then she would have been in a tier of her own at the bottom of the barrell.

 

[Furret]

Well they did say that they didn't want to have single character tiers but if they did then she would have been in a tier of her own at the bottom of the barrell.

I knew they had no idea what the character is, but that's an actual joke

 

[Rickster]

After what happened last patch...I'm really not expecting anything.

But I'll be really mad if every other bottom tier gets buffed. AGAIN. Oh well at least we can share the basement with Samus...

 

[Meru.]

Im done praying, chances she's getting buffed are next to nothing, which is about the same as the average points she got in the tier list vote. Unfortunately casuals think she is good so Zelda will forever be overpowered amongst players who do not know they have a shield button, which keeps her from getting buffed for 1v1 battles.

And let's be honest, even if she gets buffs they will never be enough to get her out of bottom tier. As the previous patches have shown the buffs they give her are simply not enough. Same goes for chars like Ganondorf who do get buffed conservatively but in the end it's to no avail.

I'm sorry guys but I have thrown away all my hope. I used to have a glimmer of hope but it's all gone now. Zelda is not going to be a good or even just workable a workable character in Smash4.

R.i.p. Zelda
2002-2016

Well they did say that they didn't want to have single character tiers but if they did then she would have been in a tier of her own at the bottom of the barrell.

I knew they had no idea what the character is, but that's an actual joke

Yes, it's true that she was ranked so low, she could have had her own tier, but they choose not to because they didn't want to have single character tiers, and some also probably felt she wasnt a tier worse than Ganondorf/Jiggly.

It is not an "actual joke" however, I personally would have liked her to be in a separate tier of her own, because this character is utter utter utter trash. I will do an extensive write-up on why she's so bad later. In short this character has A LOT of weaknesses, more than any other character in the game, and her biggest strength which is killing isn't even that big, lots and lots of characters outclass her in killing. So yay you have a character with little strengths and a lot of weaknesses.

She really deserved a trash tier of her own.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Im done praying, chances she's getting buffed are next to nothing, which is about the same as the average points she got in the tier list vote. Unfortunately casuals think she is good so Zelda will forever be overpowered amongst players who do not know they have a shield button, which keeps her from getting buffed for 1v1 battles.

And let's be honest, even if she gets buffs they will never be enough to get her out of bottom tier. As the previous patches have shown the buffs they give her are simply not enough. Same goes for chars like Ganondorf who do get buffed conservatively but in the end it's to no avail.

I'm sorry guys but I have thrown away all my hope. I used to have a glimmer of hope but it's all gone now. Zelda is not going to be a good or even just workable a workable character in Smash4.

R.i.p. Zelda
2002-2016





Yes, it's true that she was ranked so low, she could have had her own tier, but they choose not to because they didn't want to have single character tiers, and some also probably felt she wasnt a tier worse than Ganondorf/Jiggly.

It is not an "actual joke" however, I personally would have liked her to be in a separate tier of her own, because this character is utter utter utter trash. I will do an extensive write-up on why she's so bad later. In short this character has A LOT of weaknesses, more than any other character in the game, and her biggest strength which is killing isn't even that big, lots and lots of characters outclass her in killing. So yay you have a character with little strengths and a lot of weaknesses.

She really deserved a trash tier of her own.

Ouch....

Look at what you have done. You made her sweet face cry:

We better not see you asking for forgiveness to be let into Zorldo Land, when Zelder is buffed to mother freakn SS420noscope-Doritos-SwagMaster TEIRtm.!.. >

hmmph!


...





Hope only delves further into the dark void of despair that is our impending future 0_0

 

[Valamway]

If any of us thought buffs were actually gonna happen, we wouldn't need hope or "prayers."

That said, I'll never accept Zelda being considered worse than Jiggly or Ganon or even default Sword.
Jiggly has zero options against any character that doesn't have a trash neutral and a trash recovery...
And Ganon is a character with a trash neutral and a trash recovery.

I'm not trying to say Zelda is good; she's bottom tier.
But not bottom character.
What can Jiggs or Dorf do that she can't?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Agreed, No way she's worse then Jiggs, who will fall even more then Zelda.

 

[Furret]

It is not an "actual joke" however, I personally would have liked her to be in a separate tier of her own, because this character is utter utter utter trash. I will do an extensive write-up on why she's so bad later. In short this character has A LOT of weaknesses, more than any other character in the game, and her biggest strength which is killing isn't even that big, lots and lots of characters outclass her in killing. So yay you have a character with little strengths and a lot of weaknesses.

yes because jigs and dorf are so perfect in comparison to zelda
if you have no idea what zelda is.

 

[buzzard]

So I read in the competitive discussion that Nairo said that he couldn't notice any changes to Zelda when he tried the 1.1.4 update in Japan.

 

[DinsFireIsOP]

RIP our dreams.

Well, let's wait, maybe she's got a little something which is not noticeable at first. But I do not have high hopes. I would reeeeeaaaaaaally like her to have some buffs, though. She needs it.

 

[BJN39]

So I read in the competitive discussion that Nairo said that he couldn't notice any changes to Zelda when he tried the 1.1.4 update in Japan.

Well, maybe now that there's a tier list voted on by some of the people playing right in front of Sakurai showing Zelda is truly horrible, maybe he'll slap on some buffs real qwick before the patch release

 

[buzzard]

Well, maybe now that there's a tier list voted on by some of the people playing right in front of Sakurai showing Zelda is truly horrible, maybe he'll slap on some buffs real qwick before the patch release

Yeah, that 0.1 unit size increase for fair and bair sweetspots will totally fix her

 

[BJN39]

Yeah, that 0.1 unit size increase for fair and bair sweetspots will totally fix her

I was thinking the 0.5% damage increase to Din's sourspot buff actually

 

[DinsFireIsOP]

BJN39 's signature inspired me. I made that (relevant to this topic) :

If we still do not receive any buff after that, I don't know what to do!

 

[BJN39]

BJN39 's signature inspired me. I made that (relevant to this topic) :

If we still do not receive any buff after that, I don't know what to do!

I literally cannot.

This. must. be. sigged.

 

[buzzard]

There should be a followup for that image:

"Hello Zeruda-san,

No

Bye gorl

Sakurai"

 

[Valamway]

There should be a followup for that image:

"Hello Zeruda-gorl,

LOL

Byeforever

Mastakira Samurai"

 

[Meru.]

So I read in the competitive discussion that Nairo said that he couldn't notice any changes to Zelda when he tried the 1.1.4 update in Japan.

If any of us thought buffs were actually gonna happen, we wouldn't need hope or "prayers."

That said, I'll never accept Zelda being considered worse than Jiggly or Ganon or even default Sword.
Jiggly has zero options against any character that doesn't have a trash neutral and a trash recovery...
And Ganon is a character with a trash neutral and a trash recovery.

I'm not trying to say Zelda is good; she's bottom tier.
But not bottom character.
What can Jiggs or Dorf do that she can't?

I'll admit that I went a bit overboard with the ZELDA MUST HAVE HER OWN **** TIER but I definitely do think she is the worst character in the game. Ganondorf is clearly better than Zelda. His reward is much better than hers. His damage is high and and he racks up damage much faster than she does, on top of him killing earlier. He actually has usable aerials and his edgeguarding is pretty ok. His approach and neutral are awful but thanks to his aerials, specials and moves like Usmash or Dtilt he at least has a few (although not good) options. Zelda does have the advantage of having a fast move (Dtilt), something Ganon doesn't and her recovery is better. Ganon is a bad character but thanks to his explosive reward (and thus better advantage state) many of his matchups are still doable (although he definitely has undoable matchups).

Jigglypuffs is more difficult to conpare because she's a completely different character but I think her kit is less ****ty than Zelda's. Aerials like Nair, Fair and Bair are very decent. Nair stays out for years, Fair is an ok spacing tool and Bair is a stronger killing move with very little lag. Her approach is bad as she risks trading a lot (which she will obviously lose) and a lot of her stuff is unsafe, but it's more than Zelda can ever dream of. Jiggs walling game is decent, not super good or something but her aerials can be a pain to get through. She's much better at walling out than Zelda is. Jiggs edgeguarding is also pretty good thanks to her aerials and aerial mobility. She's obviously an awful character who dies at like 50, but she has a few good perks here and there. She probably has some unwinnable matchups too, although Ibdont know which ones.

Zelda... Well it's not like she has nothing. She has a good Dair and a decent Dtilt that can lead to Uair if her opponent doesn't DI correctly, as can her Dthrow. Her Fsmash kills early and is pseudo safe against some characters (its - 9 on shield drop so against chars who do not have dash punishes like dash grabs or dash attack you can get away with using Fsmash, although you are at a frame disadvantage). Unfortunately Dair is not something you every stock, Dtilt to Uair etc can be escaped, and Fsmash is slow. Her strength which is kill power just doesnt really seem to shine as her kill moves are unsafe (well actually almost everything she does is) and she has no reliable kill confirms. Zelda has A LOT of bad matchups, some of them downright unwinnable.

Ganon and Jiggs are bad characters too with a bad overall matchup spread, I just think Zelda's is worse. Perhaps not enough to warrant an entire tier under them (which is why she isn't) but she's definitely worse imo.

 

[Gemzelda_ss]

Since nairo said he couldn't notice anything, the buffs we will get (if any) are most likely gunna be frame deduction. Which at this point still wouldnt save her from being classified as bottom tier. Now unless sakurai just slapped on some buffs last minute we can assume zelda is forever a Low tier Loser. But! i have a theory, nairo probably didn't use side b off stage since he never really does miss inputs often. Theres still hope that dins fire won't put us in free fall? Even if we got that id still think zelda is doomed...but her edge guarding would be insane.

 

[Valamway]

I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion on bottom-tier relative viability, but your writeups on Ganon and Jiggly are pretty good.
You're still exaggerating Zelda's weaknesses just a little bit, and missing some of her strengths when it comes to passive pressure and offstage coverage.
Plus, I don't think she has any unwinnable matchups among her admittedly bad spread, but she does go close to even with Rosalina.
If Ganon or Jiggs were better, why haven't any solo mains of theirs done what ven has on Anthers?
I would say that counts as enough of a "result" to put her up just a few spots.

Really though, the meta for low and bottom tiers will always be underdeveloped and therefore their viability debatable.
But we do all agree that a buff on Zelda would be Christmas.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion on bottom-tier relative viability, but your writeups on Ganon and Jiggly are pretty good.
You're still exaggerating Zelda's weaknesses just a little bit, and missing some of her strengths when it comes to passive pressure and offstage coverage.
Plus, I don't think she has any unwinnable matchups among her admittedly bad spread, but she does go close to even with Rosalina.
If Ganon or Jiggs were better, why haven't any solo mains of theirs done what ven has on Anthers?
I would say that counts as enough of a "result" to put her up just a few spots.

Really though, the meta for low and bottom tiers will always be underdeveloped and therefore their viability debatable.
But we do all agree that a buff on Zelda would be Christmas.

Two reasons: ven is just a really good player and barely anybody knows how to fight Zelda, a very good one anyway. She may be an awful character but barely anybody uses her, so I wouldn't blame them if MU inexperience got to them.

Jiggs has BrianYDG getting 17th place at Super Smash Con, which is at least better than anything Zelda has ever done. I find her worse than Zelda, but I'm just throwing that out there.

also lol, implying online results mean jack****. Zelda can punish way more mistakes than normal in lag, it's why she was legit cancer to fight on Brawl's Wi-Fi.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

On a casual level, Zelda still hold some "cancer" statut in online battles (one could argue that EVERY character is played "cancer style" online).

I'll say what I usually say about Zelda, it's not that she is the worst, it's she is the least suited for the competitive level.

An environement where winning is the goal can't let go a playstyle that revolve so much on risk / reward and punishment. This and her need for precision.

 

[Meru.]

On a casual level, Zelda still hold some "cancer" statut in online battles (one could argue that EVERY character is played "cancer style" online).

I'll say what I usually say about Zelda, it's not that she is the worst, it's she is the least suited for the competitive level.

An environement where winning is the goal can't let go a playstyle that revolve so much on risk / reward and punishment. This and her need for precision.

I dont really agree on her need for precision if youre referring to her sweetspots (I just think theyre limited since they are nothing more than ultra small hitboxes that are out for one by one frame), but I completely agree with the rest. In a non competitive setting she fares just fine, and unfortunately that whats also important for the balancing team (even though casuals won't even notice most of the buffs and balance barely even matters in free for alls with items on but whatever)

One of my classmates who plays Smash casually told me Zelda was way too overpowered because of her Up B and strong smashes. Needless to say I immediately jumped from my seat and lighting kicked him in the face in real life (it sweetspotted).

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

I dont really agree on her need for precision if youre referring to her sweetspots (I just think theyre limited since they are nothing more than ultra small hitboxes that are out for one by one frame), but I completely agree with the rest. In a non competitive setting she fares just fine, and unfortunately that whats also important for the balancing team (even though casuals won't even notice most of the buffs and balance barely even matters in free for alls with items on but whatever)

One of my classmates who plays Smash casually told me Zelda was way too overpowered because of her Up B and strong smashes. Needless to say I immediately jumped from my seat and lighting kicked him in the face in real life (it sweetspotted).

Well, yes I was mostly referencing Lightning Kicks (as it needs timing and placement, althought we could say that this applies to every moves of the game), but it's also an overall statement, as you need to use all of her moveset: not because it's good, but because she has to use all of her tools to get results (compared to Ninja Zelda who can throw Fair almost mindlessly, for example). Anyway, that's just my point of view, I may be wrong on that actually.

Smash 4 has the merit of being well balanced across the various modes: 1vs1, FFA, even doubles, when they nerfed moves absorbtion in teams. Items, no items... Ect. There's so many parameters.

And then there's the competitive world. As someone who play casually (but since Smash 64), I see how the mindset is different, and the playstyle too. It's not a bad thing of course, but I admit not being that much interested in it because of that.

I think that the competitive world is kinda restrictive: the safer your character is, the more he will be played, the more he will get AT, ect. Winning is a defining parameter, and that's normal. But therefore, there's characters who get overlooked for small things. I'm especially thinking of Luigi who fell down in the tier list because of the grab nerf.

And then, there's our girl, a fine character "so OP plz nerf din & farore" in casual play, but who gets a lot of those small things, such as low speed, hurtbox size, and unsafe moves.

But if there's flaws that need to be fixed (I'll never understand the design choice into making Din freefall), there's also things that define her as character, yet make her not viable in competitive play.I think that it makes balancing her kinda hard, honestly, although I also think that she does needs buffs made for the casual play.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

I've said it many times (maybe not here specifically) but I'll say it again:
Zelda isn't viable in any play of Smash (outside maybe Doubles). Even in a casual FFA setting she's still extremely flawed and relies too much on Din's and Farore's, while in competitive play these are two moves you don't want to use too often. You can argue that some characters have their own "competitive play tools" and also "casual play tools" such as Zelda's Dtilt as opposed to Farore's spam. The issue is that these themselves aren't balanced out too well in Zelda's case. For what she lacks in she does not make up in, which is why she's always been so low on the tier list. Sure, Zelda might do well in a FFA from time to time, but if you're playing by stock (which I'm assuming everyone does, even casually) if it comes down to her and, say, Ness, which one would come out on top? All the Ness probably has to do is PK Fire > Bthrow and she's out, meanwhile the Zelda (being a casual) is probably not going to be on point, screw up barely and die because of it, causing her to lose even in a FFA setting. There are similar issues with other characters that also place low on the tier list which aren't too awesome in FFA/Casual play either. It's those characters that deserve the buffs. Yes, certain characters are clearly better for competitive play than others because of their tools, but when a character suffers all around in most modes, there is surely an issue.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, on the competitive part, her flaw is her own design, something that can't really change, and on the beginner side, it's that she's hard to pick up. Zeldas in FG are already so bad, but when I play in For Fun double with a friend, Zeldas are just a pure catastrophe. A catastrophe. A CATASTROPHE.

But the fact that she's hard to play for a beginner is something that we can't really change either IMO...

Therefore, I think that a buff patch should focus on actual issues (Din Freefall and Clang, for example), more than "making her viable for one kind of players". Doesn't mean we can't do that in the process, of course.

 

[MOI-ARI]

#PoopTeirWaifu4Laifu

I know this is all hypothetical, (and wishful thinking.) But I honestly don't think there's anything they can do to help her drastically, and considering the rate the team has been going...I honestly am expecting nothing (and i dont wanna care all that much) but whether im the only one that thinks she's 'hopeless' in terms of improving her placement. I just don't see anything being changed to the point of pulling her out of the bottom teir in the community's eyes. We're just gonna have to 'stay stong' and keep at her no matter....then kidnap Sakurai

 

[Valamway]

At this point I'm questioning whether buffing Zelda would even be a good idea.
I want it because I'm selfish, but would it benefit the meta at all?

When PM had a strong, high tier Zelda, people were upset.
They nerfed her, despite her not being top tier.

Maybe it's best to have 2-5 top tier picks and 5-10 high tier picks.
It's what worked for other Smash games...



In other words, why does Sakurai and everyone hate Zelda?

 

[Deleted member]

At this point I'm questioning whether buffing Zelda would even be a good idea.
I want it because I'm selfish, but would it benefit the meta at all?

When PM had a strong, high tier Zelda, people were upset.
They nerfed her, despite her not being top tier.

Maybe it's best to have 2-5 top tier picks and 5-10 high tier picks.
It's what worked for other Smash games...



In other words, why does Sakurai and everyone hate Zelda?

I doubt he hates Zelda. She's just badly designed and Sakurai is too stubborn to change most veteran's movesets. It's why Ganondorf is still a Falcon semiclone or why Jigglypuff still has awful specials.

 

[buzzard]

Captain, Falco, Ike, Kirby, Bowser + Jr, Little Mac, Charizard, Lucina, Marth, Dark Pit, Roy, Sheik, ZSS, Toon Link and Zelda have changes.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ShinyQuagsire/status/695089014114660354

 

[Valamway]

My placebo ideas for changes:

• Nair is sparklyerer
• Uthrow sooner FAF
• Airspeed increased from 1.040 to 1.041
• Phantom is sassier
• Nayru's has increased endlag
• Zelda is also sassier
• Dins is faster, but moves foward and back on the zaxis rapidly
• Ftilt has .5 frames less startup and .5 frames less endlag, rounded up

 

[Jaguar360]

Hey gorls, can any of you confirm the following?

• Faster startup on U-air (95% sure about this)

Zelda seems to have no damage changes, no changes to her specials and no landing lag changes on her aerials (Up air seems to have less lag when fast falling, but I think that's because U-air's faster startup is making the autocancel activate better).

If U-air is indeed faster, that could possibly make DI less of a factor with D-throw -> U-air and D-tilt -> U-air. Hopefully I'm not too guilty of placebo here.

EDIT: Run speed thing is probably wrong. Speed still seems comparable Mii Gunner when I set it to run in Training mode.

EDIT2: Looking at the github files, Zelda only has one change, which is probably U-air. Removed the other two bullet points.

 

[ZombieBran]

I can't test anything because I don't have my Wii U or 3DS with me

But gorls
the sooner you accept that Zelda is THE worst character in the game, the better off you'll be.

 

[SM Mystic]

It just looks to me like Up Air got a bigger hitbox.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Hey gorls, can any of you confirm the following?

• Faster startup on U-air (95% sure about this)

Zelda seems to have no damage changes, no changes to her specials and no landing lag changes on her aerials (Up air seems to have less lag when fast falling, but I think that's because U-air's faster startup is making the autocancel activate better).

If U-air is indeed faster, that could possibly make DI less of a factor with D-throw -> U-air and D-tilt -> U-air. Hopefully I'm not too guilty of placebo here.

EDIT: Run speed thing is probably wrong. Speed still seems comparable Mii Gunner when I set it to run in Training mode.

EDIT2: Looking at the github files, Zelda only has one change, which is probably U-air. Removed the other two bullet points.

I tested run speed (but once heh) and Uair. They are both the same.

 

[SM Mystic]

I tested run speed (but once heh) and Uair. They are both the same.

Then the bigger hitbox?