evmaxy54
Smash Champion
It would be nice, but she really doesn't need it at all. A frame 5 move that can combo from 30% to kill % & can hit underneath ledges is great for any character to have really.
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Official Zelda Patch and Changes Discussion Thread
- Thread starter BJN39
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Dtilt's hitstun is artificial. As I've mentioned before, at 0%, it has a -4 hit advantage. It gets to a +1 hit advantage by 13-20%, and +3 by 20-30%. (on the weight spectrum Jiggs-Bowser) By 20-30%, Dtilt can still be avoided by frame 2 airdodge, and by then probably can be jumped away for even less risk. Dtilt #2 is only available by 26-38%--even later. An Utilt becomes truly guaranteed at 33-47%. (Take ~5% and it can manage to hit before most airdodges, but it/s easier to jump out) I'm not even sure Dtilt has low enough KB by then unless it's the rare case of belwo the ledge usage.
Hitstun for Dtilt only guarantees UAir by 73-102%, and until a few percent later, it has to be frame-perfect. If they don't happen to DI away, which all but neuters aerial followups. NAir hit 1 becomes guaranteed just a little below 46-65%, where a FH NAir hit 1 cannot hit anyways. NAir hit 2 is true at 60-83% or thereabout. By then FH NAir probably cannot hit.
Now let me put this in perspective:
Bayonetta's Dtilt has the same 19F endlag upon hitting with the first hitframe, though it hits 2F later. It does 6/7%. By 0%, it ALREADY has a hit advantage of +12, and would be able to guarantee Zelda's NAir hit 1. By 27-40% it would guarantee NAir hit 2. Also note it has amazing range.
Corrin's Dtilt hits the same frame as Zelda's albeit ending multiple frames later. (FAF 31) It does 7.5%. It also has sword-range. By 0%, it already has a +1 hit advantage, AND it hits the opponent INWARD. Admittedly it only gets to Zelda's NAir 1 levels of hitstun by 45-65%, but it can do more on Corrin than Zelda's does for her.
Greninja's Dtilt also hits frame 5, but has FAF 27--only 2F worse than Zelda's. Inversely it does have a lower and outward angle. It does 7%. By 0%, it has a +5 hit advantage. It doesn't do as much as it could for Greninja (RAR BAir is probably the first aerial you could land, and it starts later) but his Dtilt is doing far better than Zelda's.
Falco's Dtilt hits 2F later than Zelda's, and has 1F more endlag. However it does 9/10/12%, and has fraudulent sword-disjoint. It has a +9/+10 hit advantage at 0%, (Or a still better +2 if you manage to land the sour-spot) and the good hit guarantees Zelda's NAir hit 1 by 3-10%. Admittedly, Falco's is probably not the best example, but it's still a really solid Dtilt. Despite the 5 degree lower angle, Falco can get ez $$$ off of it, and it does kill too.
Little Mac's Dtilt hits on a hilarious frame 3, and has 1 less frame of endlag vs Zelda's. It does 8%. By 0%, it has a hit advantage of +5--enough to land another Dtilt immediately. 31-45% and you could land Zelda's NAir hit 1 off of it. An important different with his Dtilt is now he not only does better damage and hitstun, but it even has lower endlag. Of course, Little Mac is known for a good ground game, but his Dtilt is still solid and shouldn't be ignored here.
Ike's Dtilt is overall a tiny bit slower than Zelda's (hitframe 7, 21F endlag vs Zelda's 19F) but it does 8%, and has long range. At 0%, his Dtilt has a +12 hit advantage, (Zelda NAir 1 guarantee) Its hitstun maxes out by 26-39% range.
Mewtwo is one of my favorites to note. While ha Dtilt hits 1F later, and manages to be the only one I list without higher damage, (4-5% damage) his Dtilt has 5F less endlag than Zelda's. Yes, FIVE. At 0%, his Dtilt has a hit advantage of +14/17/15. (Depending on the spacing. It's actually really odd, hit middle hitbox has the highest hitstun) Higher than Bayonetta's own hit advantage. Mind you his own FAir/NAir/UAir are guaranteed on either non-innermost hitbox at 0%. His growths are a little slower, and hitstun maxes out later than Zelda's, but that means combo-likeable KB sticks around longer. His Dtilt is also one of the longest-ranged Dtilts in the game.
Link's Dtilt is also hilarious. The only negative is that his is frame 11. Otherwise it has 2F less endlag than Zelda's, sword-range, and 11% damage. It pretty much already has maximum hitstun at 0%. (It's already at 38F), and at 0% it has a hit advantage of +21...LOL. Its KB scaling is really low, so it can get extremely ez $$$ during most of low percent. Zelda could probably legit get free FAir sweet-spots off of Link's Dtilt.
Honorable mention to Roy/Robin's Dtilts for being a lot better than Zelda's, (Range, damage, hitstun) but lacking a high angle. Also mentioning Cloud's, which happens to have mounds of hitstun with good damage and the slide range, though is a lot longer to end after the first hitframe. Also also, every quick Dtilt that can combo into itself reliable (Or do dirty things like Diddy's) but does not necessarily out-damage Zelda's Dtilt.
I'm ranting btw.
But I just want it to be clear that why can't Zelda have it? Every listed Dtilt has a similar hit angle, with better range and hitstun, and all but M2's have notably better damage. Not to mention almost every single Dtilt is on a more moobile and/or just better character. The in many cases very slightly worse frame data is more than compensated by the Dtilt being far better than Zelda's in every other way. A damage increase (As well as maybe little kb adjustments) would at least make it seem like Zelda's Dtilt wasn't intentionally bad as a "fast" Dtilt, but too weak to be a power Dtilt. The ONLY thing I would say that make her Dtilt unique and potentially an extra use is the longer hit duration. But realistically, you can't use that when considering shield advantage or combo/hitstun, because there is no way to "manipulate" Dtilt to hit on a later hitframe, people just run into that by accident.
tl;dr it's not the first problem Zelda needs addressed, but Dtilt should be buffed.
Hitstun for Dtilt only guarantees UAir by 73-102%, and until a few percent later, it has to be frame-perfect. If they don't happen to DI away, which all but neuters aerial followups. NAir hit 1 becomes guaranteed just a little below 46-65%, where a FH NAir hit 1 cannot hit anyways. NAir hit 2 is true at 60-83% or thereabout. By then FH NAir probably cannot hit.
Now let me put this in perspective:
Bayonetta's Dtilt has the same 19F endlag upon hitting with the first hitframe, though it hits 2F later. It does 6/7%. By 0%, it ALREADY has a hit advantage of +12, and would be able to guarantee Zelda's NAir hit 1. By 27-40% it would guarantee NAir hit 2. Also note it has amazing range.
Corrin's Dtilt hits the same frame as Zelda's albeit ending multiple frames later. (FAF 31) It does 7.5%. It also has sword-range. By 0%, it already has a +1 hit advantage, AND it hits the opponent INWARD. Admittedly it only gets to Zelda's NAir 1 levels of hitstun by 45-65%, but it can do more on Corrin than Zelda's does for her.
Greninja's Dtilt also hits frame 5, but has FAF 27--only 2F worse than Zelda's. Inversely it does have a lower and outward angle. It does 7%. By 0%, it has a +5 hit advantage. It doesn't do as much as it could for Greninja (RAR BAir is probably the first aerial you could land, and it starts later) but his Dtilt is doing far better than Zelda's.
Falco's Dtilt hits 2F later than Zelda's, and has 1F more endlag. However it does 9/10/12%, and has fraudulent sword-disjoint. It has a +9/+10 hit advantage at 0%, (Or a still better +2 if you manage to land the sour-spot) and the good hit guarantees Zelda's NAir hit 1 by 3-10%. Admittedly, Falco's is probably not the best example, but it's still a really solid Dtilt. Despite the 5 degree lower angle, Falco can get ez $$$ off of it, and it does kill too.
Little Mac's Dtilt hits on a hilarious frame 3, and has 1 less frame of endlag vs Zelda's. It does 8%. By 0%, it has a hit advantage of +5--enough to land another Dtilt immediately. 31-45% and you could land Zelda's NAir hit 1 off of it. An important different with his Dtilt is now he not only does better damage and hitstun, but it even has lower endlag. Of course, Little Mac is known for a good ground game, but his Dtilt is still solid and shouldn't be ignored here.
Ike's Dtilt is overall a tiny bit slower than Zelda's (hitframe 7, 21F endlag vs Zelda's 19F) but it does 8%, and has long range. At 0%, his Dtilt has a +12 hit advantage, (Zelda NAir 1 guarantee) Its hitstun maxes out by 26-39% range.
Mewtwo is one of my favorites to note. While ha Dtilt hits 1F later, and manages to be the only one I list without higher damage, (4-5% damage) his Dtilt has 5F less endlag than Zelda's. Yes, FIVE. At 0%, his Dtilt has a hit advantage of +14/17/15. (Depending on the spacing. It's actually really odd, hit middle hitbox has the highest hitstun) Higher than Bayonetta's own hit advantage. Mind you his own FAir/NAir/UAir are guaranteed on either non-innermost hitbox at 0%. His growths are a little slower, and hitstun maxes out later than Zelda's, but that means combo-likeable KB sticks around longer. His Dtilt is also one of the longest-ranged Dtilts in the game.
Link's Dtilt is also hilarious. The only negative is that his is frame 11. Otherwise it has 2F less endlag than Zelda's, sword-range, and 11% damage. It pretty much already has maximum hitstun at 0%. (It's already at 38F), and at 0% it has a hit advantage of +21...LOL. Its KB scaling is really low, so it can get extremely ez $$$ during most of low percent. Zelda could probably legit get free FAir sweet-spots off of Link's Dtilt.
Honorable mention to Roy/Robin's Dtilts for being a lot better than Zelda's, (Range, damage, hitstun) but lacking a high angle. Also mentioning Cloud's, which happens to have mounds of hitstun with good damage and the slide range, though is a lot longer to end after the first hitframe. Also also, every quick Dtilt that can combo into itself reliable (Or do dirty things like Diddy's) but does not necessarily out-damage Zelda's Dtilt.
I'm ranting btw.
But I just want it to be clear that why can't Zelda have it? Every listed Dtilt has a similar hit angle, with better range and hitstun, and all but M2's have notably better damage. Not to mention almost every single Dtilt is on a more moobile and/or just better character. The in many cases very slightly worse frame data is more than compensated by the Dtilt being far better than Zelda's in every other way. A damage increase (As well as maybe little kb adjustments) would at least make it seem like Zelda's Dtilt wasn't intentionally bad as a "fast" Dtilt, but too weak to be a power Dtilt. The ONLY thing I would say that make her Dtilt unique and potentially an extra use is the longer hit duration. But realistically, you can't use that when considering shield advantage or combo/hitstun, because there is no way to "manipulate" Dtilt to hit on a later hitframe, people just run into that by accident.
tl;dr it's not the first problem Zelda needs addressed, but Dtilt should be buffed.
I just want Dtilt to actually combo into itself at low %s (so sick of everyone jumping out for free...)then guarantee (granted that your positioning is on point) a Fair castwide at mid to mid-high %s. The only characters I can get that on now (at least according to Training) are super fast fallers like Fox.
The hit duration is definitely nice though. It makes me wonder if the devs intended it to be a low risk ledge punish with high reward. It fits with the whole "Zelda is dangerous offstage" motif they have going on.
The hit duration is definitely nice though. It makes me wonder if the devs intended it to be a low risk ledge punish with high reward. It fits with the whole "Zelda is dangerous offstage" motif they have going on.
evmaxy54
Smash Champion
I find it completely unfair to compare moves purely on their numbers. Sure Zelda's Dtilt isn't technically the best move in the game, but in the context of her moveset it works & works very well I would add, as it gets her some solid damaging combos & even kill combos for something unreactable without prediction. You're underestimating it's range, it's decent enough to get the job done as it is & doesn't need changes (I would argue that a longer range would make Uair/Fair combos harder to land since they would be further away). And at 0% you're gonna be fishing for a grab or an Utilt anyways since Zelda gets so much off them, more so even if they somehow buff Dtilt.
Also "frame perfect" **** (like Dtilt Uair) is so easy in this game as well LMAO. If you legitimately have to complain about executing that I can only say is "stop being bad". And if people start DI'ing it I already told you what to do & stop being predictable
Also "frame perfect" **** (like Dtilt Uair) is so easy in this game as well LMAO. If you legitimately have to complain about executing that I can only say is "stop being bad". And if people start DI'ing it I already told you what to do & stop being predictable
Excuse you if you thought my using of the phrase "frame perfect" was to suggest I was complaining about it. I was using it in a technical sense, as it takes a minimum 20F for j.UAir, and the numbers I was talking about for that were exactly 20F hit advantages. Nothing to do with my ability (or likely lack therof) to land it. It's so that when I say "UAir is guaranteed by X%," people don't assume based off of the word "guarantee" that it's lolez$ guarantee, Zelda has to work her butt of for everything, including damage at times, because a majority of her truly damaging attacks in reality, a relegated to multihits or sweet-spots, or just plain punish-only moves. If something quicker or more often useful like Dtilt were to get a damage buff at least, then it would just be complementary.
I'll just drop the subject. Patches are likely dead anyways and the devs won't address her in meaningful ways.
I'll just drop the subject. Patches are likely dead anyways and the devs won't address her in meaningful ways.
I agree with most of what you said but saying a d-tilt range buff would make the move worse in any way doesnt really make any sense. Of course if d-tilt had longer range then u-air would be harder to string, but the d-tilt never would have even connected in the first place had it not been (hypothetically) buffed! It's like might as well take the damage and spacing tool.
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Lavani
Indigo Destiny
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
- Messages
- 7,256
This isn't necessarily correct. The move has a lot of active frames; if your opponent is moving forward for any reason, they'll move into the hitbox and then you have your combo (along with more frame advantage for hitting later in the move!) If you extend the range past the space where those combos work, late hits have significantly less value and you need to be precise for combos.
If it were to be buffed in any way I think higher BKB/lower KBG would be the most meaningful; copypasting Bayonetta dtilt knockback numbers would open up a lot, and make it more usable at low percents. Dtilt's already pretty good, though.
Floofzy-Kitten
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2016
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- 4
Why would you give D-Tilt more knockback? Combo's require your opponent to be CLOSE to you for another follow up. D-Tilt combos into F-Tilt and jab at low-mid percents. Tilts are usually combo moves. Giving D-Tilt more KB would hinder it's combo potential. A damage buff would also be bad since that would inadvertantly increase how much knockback they take from it comboing into itself, meaning you can get less consecutive hits before you can F-Tilt or Jab.
Lavani
Indigo Destiny
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2014
- Messages
- 7,256
Hitstun is derived from knockback, and at low percents Zelda's dtilt knockback is so low she actually has negative frame advantage on hit.
Increasing base knockback, say, 20→60, and reducing growth 120→50 would make it better at low percents while preserving how it currently is at higher percents. It'd be a net buff in every way.
Increasing base knockback, say, 20→60, and reducing growth 120→50 would make it better at low percents while preserving how it currently is at higher percents. It'd be a net buff in every way.
Every time I imagine Zelda's Dtilt with high base/low growth I think that's too good,
but then I remember Bayo & Mewtwo's Dtilts exist and are longer ranged to boot, and I'm like, 'make Zelda broken now k.'
Balance mod attempters please take notes.
but then I remember Bayo & Mewtwo's Dtilts exist and are longer ranged to boot, and I'm like, 'make Zelda broken now k.'
Balance mod attempters please take notes.
Or both buffsOr we could just decrease the endlag and have guaranteed Dtilt>Kick on everyone
BAN ZELDA
At this point I've given up on thoughts of over-carefully buffing Zelda and have moved to things like, "reduce FAir landing lag to 17F" or "make Dtilt do 7% and combo like Bayo's."
basically Zelda needs so much help I've
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So this thread has been dead for over a year now
Anyone have any new perspectives on Zelda changes/theories?
Oh and back on the Dtilt discussion; I guess another unique property of Zeldas Dtilt is her iron leg. This move seems to clank with literally everything lmao. Even if they'e behind you
Anyone have any new perspectives on Zelda changes/theories?
Oh and back on the Dtilt discussion; I guess another unique property of Zeldas Dtilt is her iron leg. This move seems to clank with literally everything lmao. Even if they'e behind you
Luminario
Smash Lord
This place was dead for a reason 
Nothing's really changed, our girl still struggles with everything.
Maybe in the next game the devs will listen to the fans as they patch characters. Of course they could just start off with listening to the fans as they make the base moveset.
Nothing's really changed, our girl still struggles with everything.
Maybe in the next game the devs will listen to the fans as they patch characters. Of course they could just start off with listening to the fans as they make the base moveset.