Official Zelda Patch and Changes Discussion Thread

[FullMoon]

I believe Lucas and Ness can heal only 30% at most from an absorption

 

[BJN39]

Well, that's still 30%

With that in mind you don't even need to try investing in more than a half-distance Din's to get the full results.

 

[Valamway]

Whoa guys, you're throwing around a lot of bad info here...

For one thing, all team-projectile absorbs (G&W, Villager, Ness, Lucas, etc) were nerfed just a few updates ago.
Whatever the end result percent would be is halved if it came from a teammate.

Also, Ness heals about 1.6x, I think.
Less than 2x.
And Lucas is 2.5x, not 3x.
The cap is 30% for both though.
So Ness heals 12% from a friendly max-range sweetspot Din's, and Lucas heals 15%.
If my math is right.

 

[BJN39]

Y'know, I though that they were nerfed! I remember Villager and G&W's nerfs. Thanks for clearing up that info Valamway

But if Ness's is healing x1.6 the damage, then maximum Din's would yield 22% and Lucas would heal 30% (capped)

Edit: LOL forgot one part! 11% for Ness and 15% for Lucas! Yeah....now I'm not sure Din's healer team is even worth it lmao.

 

[Valamway]

11% for Ness

Did you test that?
It's not 12%?
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure all the heal%s in the game are ceiling, not floor or rounded.
Partial percents are confusing enough without fractional negatives.

 

[BJN39]

Did you test that?
It's not 12%?
I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure all the heal%s in the game are ceiling, not floor or rounded.
Partial percents are confusing enough without fractional negatives.

Well, I just rounded it from 11.2% to 11%. I'd need to test to actually confirm. Considering decimal percents are not uncommon in SSB4, it very well might just do 11.2%. I didn't think percents in SSB4 would use ceiling.

 

[Valamway]

Well, I just rounded it from 11.2% to 11%. I'd need to test to actually confirm. Considering decimal percents are not uncommon in SSB4, it very well might just do 11.2%. I didn't think percents in SSB4 would use ceiling.

Looks like it doesn't round at all; it uses the fraction.
A post on the Ness boards had me thinking otherwise, but it heals more than 11.2%...
Like 11.6 or 11.7.
I dunno, partial percents are confusing.
Can you test it too?

 

[Macchiato]

I find that Brawl Zelda much better at Doubles than Smash 4 Zelda. It was much easier to follow up with kicks and I still think that Brawl Din's was marginally better although still very situational. D-tilt would easily lock and set up for combos and Din's would help teammates recovery rather than kill them. One good thing is that Smash 4 Farore's Wind is great at sniping kills although you should be cautious in case of hitting your partner. Either way though, Zelda is much more viable in doubles. Only in Doubles, Zelda is better than her emo clone.

 

[BJN39]

I recently was reminded that IF a new patch was released, it would be like, not too far off from now if it were to match the usual patch timings. I decided why not share my current patch stuff gimmes for Zelda?

One can always hope they get seen and applied plox.

Zelda

Weight 85 -> 89
Walk Speed 0.87 -> 0.95
Run Speed 1.3 -> 1.4
Air Speed 1.04 -> 1.09

Jab loop hitbox 2 size 4.0 -> 5.0

Ftilt
        FAF 38 -> 35
        hitbox 2 z2 n/a -> -4.0

Dtilt
        damage 5.5 -> 7.5
        bkb 20 -> 35
        kbg 120 -> 90
        size 3.6 -> 4.0

Fsmash FAF 50 -> 45

Dsmash kbg 86/96 -> 92/102

Usmash FAF 64 -> 60

NAir
        FAF 51 -> 48
        landing lag 19F -> 16F
    final hitboxes
        bkb 40/40/40/40 -> 55/55/55/55
        size 4.0/4.0/6.0/6.0 -> 5.0/5.0/6.0/6.0

FAir/BAir
        landing lag 23F/25F -> 21F/23F
        hitbox 0 size 1.9 -> 2.4
        hitbox 3 size 5.0 -> 6.0
    hitboxes 1/2/3
        damage 4 -> 6
        bkb 5/5/5 -> 20/20/30
        kbg 80/80/96 -> 70/70/90

Nayru's Love
    loop hitboxes
        damage 2/1 -> 3/2
        size 6.0/4.0 -> 6.5/4.5
        x1 -4.0/-10.0 -> -4.5/-10.5
        x2 4.0/10.0 -> 4.5/10.5
    final hitboxes
        damage 5/4 -> 6/5

Phantom Slash
        phantom attacks act as projectile -> melee
        release animation FAF 47 -> 43
        phantom health 13.0 -> 16.0
        maximum charge, hit 1 angle 62 -> 80
    maximum charge, hit 2
        duration 4F -> 5F
        size 4.0/4.5/5.5 -> 4.5/5.5/6.5

Nayru's Passion damage 15 -> 17

Farore's Windfall ledge snap no -> yes

I'll go through stuff:

• Stat buffs, all somewhat subtle, but Zelda at least could use a little help here and there.

• Jab hitbox size increase > why da hex is the loop hit so small vs the final hit, so we DON'T NERF THE FINAL HIT.

• Ftilt FAF buff and blindspot fix. Yes, it can be solved with one change Sakurai.

• Dtilt damage and hitstun buffs. The KB changes calculate to not "punishable on hit at low percent" hitstun levels. The move would feel bulkier and better.

Ftilt and Dtilt are not actually that extravagant of buffs tbh, Dtilt pretty much matches Samus's 1.1.5 Ftilt buffs in style. I explained somewhere else how Ftilt FAF buffs are perfectly fair.

• smash attacks each get a buff. Dsmash ~matches Brawl power nao (maybe 2KBG stronger secretkpop) Fsmash is like Bowser Jr's now, where you could be safe on block. Usmash is just a little bonus buff. Hey, M2 AND Bowser Jr got 5F off their Usmash endlags...

• NAir final hit sizes actually larger than multihits now, just for the sake of design logic. BKB increase for more hitstun, and complementing FAF buff. Landing buff will make landing those FF NAir followups slightly smoother~

• LK buffs. I decided the 'power' route seems more like it might actually happen for Zelda than the frame data buffs. Sourspot buffs equate to better hitstun. Hitting with the outer sourspot will not be suicide now. Size buffs for range and so the sweet-spot isn't so small that it misses when it's supposed to actually land smh. This is honestly BL a bug fix lmao.

• Nayru damage buff and the multihits are slightly more similar in range to the final hit, for similar reasons as Jab. Passion gets a buff because it would be even more literally useless if Nayru's did the same amount of damage. Now it KOs at a reasonable percent as well~

• Windfall can you just snap ledges seriously wtf.

• Finally, Phantom. Primarily the changes were to try and eliminate the two remaining possible "whiffs" for maximum charge. Tipper hit one whiff-spot should be shrunk to almost nothing now. Changing Phantom shield hit properties to "melee attacks" instead of acting as a projectile should, SHOULD. Make hit 2 not dodgeable should you block hit 1. Also 3rd FAF buff lol, and Phantom health buff. Being at 16% alone would do wonders. You don't really even need more than that. I don't list custom Phantoms but obviously similar whiff fixes would be applied there as well.

I had simpleton ideas for Din's buffs as well, but I didn't really care to put them out because once again, don't waste the buffs on a move so bad it would take a lot to salvage. Except LKs, those need buffs because Zelda basically doesn't have side aerials.

 

[buzzard]

I recently was reminded that IF a new patch was released, it would be like, not too far off from now if it were to match the usual patch timings. I decided why not share my current patch stuff gimmes for Zelda?

One can always hope they get seen and applied plox.

Zelda

Weight 85 -> 89
Walk Speed 0.87 -> 0.95
Run Speed 1.3 -> 1.4
Air Speed 1.04 -> 1.09

Jab loop hitbox 2 size 4.0 -> 5.0

Ftilt
        FAF 38 -> 35
        hitbox 2 z2 n/a -> -4.0

Dtilt
        damage 5.5 -> 7.5
        bkb 20 -> 35
        kbg 120 -> 90
        size 3.6 -> 4.0

Fsmash FAF 50 -> 45

Dsmash kbg 86/96 -> 92/102

Usmash FAF 64 -> 60

NAir
        FAF 51 -> 48
        landing lag 19F -> 16F
    final hitboxes
        bkb 40/40/40/40 -> 55/55/55/55
        size 4.0/4.0/6.0/6.0 -> 5.0/5.0/6.0/6.0

FAir/BAir
        landing lag 23F/25F -> 21F/23F
        hitbox 0 size 1.9 -> 2.4
        hitbox 3 size 5.0 -> 6.0
    hitboxes 1/2/3
        damage 4 -> 6
        bkb 5/5/5 -> 20/20/30
        kbg 80/80/96 -> 70/70/90

Nayru's Love
    loop hitboxes
        damage 2/1 -> 3/2
        size 6.0/4.0 -> 6.5/4.5
        x1 -4.0/-10.0 -> -4.5/-10.5
        x2 4.0/10.0 -> 4.5/10.5
    final hitboxes
        damage 5/4 -> 6/5

Phantom Slash
        phantom attacks act as projectile -> melee
        release animation FAF 47 -> 43
        phantom health 13.0 -> 16.0
        maximum charge, hit 1 angle 62 -> 80
    maximum charge, hit 2
        duration 4F -> 5F
        size 4.0/4.5/5.5 -> 4.5/5.5/6.5

Nayru's Passion damage 15 -> 17

Farore's Windfall ledge snap no -> yes

I'll go through stuff:

• Stat buffs, all somewhat subtle, but Zelda at least could use a little help here and there.

• Jab hitbox size increase > why da hex is the loop hit so small vs the final hit, so we DON'T NERF THE FINAL HIT.

• Ftilt FAF buff and blindspot fix. Yes, it can be solved with one change Sakurai.

• Dtilt damage and hitstun buffs. The KB changes calculate to not "punishable on hit at low percent" hitstun levels. The move would feel bulkier and better.

Ftilt and Dtilt are not actually that extravagant of buffs tbh, Dtilt pretty much matches Samus's 1.1.5 Ftilt buffs in style. I explained somewhere else how Ftilt FAF buffs are perfectly fair.

• smash attacks each get a buff. Dsmash ~matches Brawl power nao (maybe 2KBG stronger secretkpop) Fsmash is like Bowser Jr's now, where you could be safe on block. Usmash is just a little bonus buff. Hey, M2 AND Bowser Jr got 5F off their Usmash endlags...

• NAir final hit sizes actually larger than multihits now, just for the sake of design logic. BKB increase for more hitstun, and complementing FAF buff. Landing buff will make landing those FF NAir followups slightly smoother~

• LK buffs. I decided the 'power' route seems more like it might actually happen for Zelda than the frame data buffs. Sourspot buffs equate to better hitstun. Hitting with the outer sourspot will not be suicide now. Size buffs for range and so the sweet-spot isn't so small that it misses when it's supposed to actually land smh. This is honestly BL a bug fix lmao.

• Nayru damage buff and the multihits are slightly more similar in range to the final hit, for similar reasons as Jab. Passion gets a buff because it would be even more literally useless if Nayru's did the same amount of damage. Now it KOs at a reasonable percent as well~

• Windfall can you just snap ledges seriously wtf.

• Finally, Phantom. Primarily the changes were to try and eliminate the two remaining possible "whiffs" for maximum charge. Tipper hit one whiff-spot should be shrunk to almost nothing now. Changing Phantom shield hit properties to "melee attacks" instead of acting as a projectile should, SHOULD. Make hit 2 not dodgeable should you block hit 1. Also 3rd FAF buff lol, and Phantom health buff. Being at 16% alone would do wonders. You don't really even need more than that. I don't list custom Phantoms but obviously similar whiff fixes would be applied there as well.

I had simpleton ideas for Din's buffs as well, but I didn't really care to put them out because once again, don't waste the buffs on a move so bad it would take a lot to salvage. Except LKs, those need buffs because Zelda basically doesn't have side aerials.

Really liking what you propose and I'd be ecstatic if we got 1/3 of those once updates are done.

 

[Lord Renning]

I'd like it if LK's could be used as safe pokes with the edge of the sour spot. But in the middle it would be punishable, and then obviously sweetspot would be safe. That way we keep the risk/reward for proper spacing and keeping her as an advanced/technical character, while giving her tools in neutral.

 

[BJN39]

Ftilt
       hitbox 2 z2 n/a -> -4.0

I feel like expanding on how Ftilt blindspot is worked for anyone who cares. All I show listed is "z2 n/a -> -4.0" which obviously means 'wtf' for the normal onlooker.

Formally, this would mean: A z-axis "stretch coordinate" is added that stretches -4 units back from the origin placement (Which is connected to Zelda's elbow or so). Still kind 'wtf' for the normal onlooker. Let me explain the parts of this:

First, let's look at SSB4 Ftilt courtesy of @Furil

Spoiler: SSB4 Ftilt

Random notes: The data "sizes" of the hit-spheres "boxes" from innermost to outermost is 3.0/3.5/4.0 units, which measures the radius. Basically they progress in size 0.5 units a hitbox to have a gentle increase per distance. Remember the radius of the size 3.0 hitbox for later explanations!

Now look at Brawl's. ty @MechaWave for your ancient Brawl IMGs. Some still haven't died!

Spoiler: Brawl Ftilt

See that 4th hitbox that is absent in SSB4? That pretty much sealed the deal. Also rip old 11-13% damage and up/in angle

As you could see in the pics, an oddly important inside hitbox was removed when Ftilt was brought from Brawl. While it initially seemed like no big deal, (It was a sourspot anyways) it ended up assisting in creating the infamous blind spot the size of Mario at point blank. Now, in SSB4, the innermost hitbox is actually a unit (AKA slightly) more inward, but it obviously doesn't cover the area that is the blindspot.

Other random note: These hitboxes are directly attached to data "bones" on Zelda. Thus, they move WITH her arm, and their placement coordinates are relative to her arm, and not the normal x/y/z. With this in mind, when the z axis is altered for these htiboxes in this instance, they will move in and out horizontally, AKA the normal x-axis. (I explained this when explaining how an alteration in 1.1.5 gave Ftilt a slight range improvement.)

Short of it: z-axis changes for these particular hitboxes will equate to visual and functional x-axis changes.

Now, there are "stretchy" hitboxes. Basically they have two programmed coordinates, and the hitboxes "stretches" between the coordinates, and appear "pill" shaped. They are used now in SSB4 for many moves so that you don't need multiple hitboxes to cover a straight horizontal area, for example.

So now stretch hitboxes and coordinates relative to Zelda's arm are explained. Currently, the innermost hitbox (ID=2, thus "hitbox 2") is located at x=0,y=0,z=-1, attached to a bone that equates to ~her elbow. So, just a touch in from her elbow. The proposed addition is a stretch coordinate at the same bone, at x=0,y=0,z=-4, so, 3 more units inward. (All the area in between the two coordinates woukld be covered and it would be a "pill-shaped" hitbox reaching from its original position, to her perspective "left" shoulder.

If you look at the SSB4 GIF, and pause or set it on the main horizontal hitbox frame, then eyeball the horizontal distance from the center to the left edge of the circle, and double it to the left. That would be the distance added inward for her Ftilt. This would look almost the same as the inward horizontal distance of the old Brawl hitbox. (Minus negligible vertical distance, would not negate the improvement/potential blindspot removal.)

Somethingsomething. Relatively simple change. You don't need to re-add the missing hitbox to fix it pretty much. IDK are there any other glaringly confusing things in my list? Because it's fun when people know all that they get from "x change."

 

[SM Mystic]

I would just do this with Din's Fire.
-> Faster Casting Animation
-> Major Endlag Reduction after release (Includes in the air, which makes Din's Fire slightly better in the air as well)
-> Explosion of Din's Fire comes out a few frames faster (Makes it slightly easier to punish someone who has good airdodge frames).

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I would just do this with Din's Fire.
-> Faster Casting Animation
-> Major Endlag Reduction after release (Includes in the air, which makes Din's Fire slightly better in the air as well)
-> Explosion of Din's Fire comes out a few frames faster (Makes it slightly easier to punish someone who has good airdodge frames).

I seem to be in a minority who wants Din's fire buffed. I'd also like helplessness to be removed when used in the air. Not fair to die to a misinput. I think that Phantom Slash should always reach the same distance (Fully charged), in exchange for making the move 3% weaker and less knock back. Also for the love of God, please improve Lighting Kick. The Sweetspot is ridiculously small. I land it often, but that's because I have been using her ever since Brawl. It's not fair on new players.

 

[Valamway]

I always thought it would be cool if the phantom distance was the reverse of what it is now:
The quick release goes the furthest but is the weakest, but the max charge stands right in front of you and covers your endlag with massive, strong hitboxes.
Never going to happen, but that's how I would have designed the move to begin with; it makes a lot more sense.
Plus I would make the charge animation cancel on shield, but not store the charge.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I always thought it would be cool if the phantom distance was the reverse of what it is now:
The quick release goes the furthest but is the weakest, but the max charge stands right in front of you and covers your endlag with massive, strong hitboxes.
Never going to happen, but that's how I would have designed the move to begin with; it makes a lot more sense.
Plus I would make the charge animation cancel on shield, but not store the charge.

I think the best way would be:Storeable at full charge, but only at full charge, make it unreflectable, and your charging idea as well. Also remove the whiff when the opponent is right in front of you.

 

[Valamway]

I think the best way would be:Storeable at full charge, but only at full charge, make it unreflectable, and your charging idea as well. Also remove the whiff when the opponent is right in front of you.

Even just unreflectable would be a dream...
Like, Sakurai, Phantom is a "projectile" but Luma shot is not.
Wat.

 

[Macchiato]

Even just unreflectable would be a dream...
Like, Sakurai, Phantom is a "projectile" but Luma shot is not.
Wat.

Well actuallty Luma Shot is, you can reflect it as well but it's just unorthadox.

Star Bits is the one that's not a projectile.

 

[Valamway]

Well actuallty Luma Shot is, you can reflect it as well but it's just unorthadox.

Star Bits is the one that's not a projectile.

Yes, that's the one I meant
It makes no sense that those aren't projectiles but Luma itself is during Shot.

 

[Lord Renning]

Where's my patch?

 

[BJN39]

The dream is dead

 

[Freelance Spy]

The dream is dead

Only if there isn't a patch some time next month...

 

[MOI-ARI]

Smash NX patch hype. Kappa

March2017bois

 

[SM Mystic]

I'd like to bring to everyone's attention that we can now mod Zelda's frame data however we please.
>

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I'd like to bring to everyone's attention that we can now mod Zelda's frame data however we please.
>

Make Zelda great again.-Project Z

 

[SM Mystic]

http://prntscr.com/b51x5k Patch 1.1.6 has been confirmed to come out sometime later this month. Maybe today? Who knows, but I KNEW IT WAS COMING.

 

[Meru.]

Get back to praying gurls!

 

[buzzard]

*Prays super hard*

Lightning kicks fix pls Sakurai

 

[Meru.]

*Prays super hard*

Lightning kicks fix pls Sakurai

For real!! I hate it when I have the read AND I hit tjem with Fair/Bair AND it's supposed to sweetspot but they don't because **** logic. Also buff Elevator, make it inescapable plz. I just want to kill my opponents when I have the read AND I execute it properly.

 

[buzzard]

For real!! I hate it when I have the read AND I hit tjem with Fair/Bair AND it's supposed to sweetspot but they don't because **** logic. Also buff Elevator, make it inescapable plz. I just want to kill my opponents when I have the read AND I execute it properly.

Agreed! I'd love it if they made it a bit easier to get the sweetspot.

If not, then buff KO power to heaven. There's no reason for them to be weaker than Falcon knee or Marth tipper FSmash when kicks are way harder to setup/get and they make you way more vulnerable if you miss/sourspot. LKicks should kill you around 75-80% no matter what character you are and no matter where on the stage you are.

 

[frest123]

Make Zelda great again.-Project Z

Again? She was great before...? (Sorry, just had to)

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Again? She was great before...? (Sorry, just had to)

You seem to be implying PM Zelda wasn't good. Although, to be fair, every character was good in Project M

 

[BJN39]

Maybe since the timing was a little late, perhaps they needed time to implemenT my buffs after seeing them??

Prayers girls!

 

[Meru.]

Maybe since the timing was a little late, perhaps they needed time to implemenT my buffs after seeing them??

Prayers girls!

If they implement your changes I'm going to send you Dutch cookies.

Not kidding. I will actually do that.

 

[BJN39]

Maintenance has begun!

 

[Valamway]

Maintenance has begun!

Not for Smash though; none of those servers are down.

 

[BJN39]

Not for Smash though; none of those servers are down.

Yeah I realized like, 2 seconds later that tonight it wasn't happenin'

;_;

 

[SM Mystic]

Maybe it'll be like that one patch. We get it while we're asleep.

 

[Mad Duck]

I have a gut feeling that the patch will be released next week,or maybe this weekend, I mean May's almost over.

 

[Lord Renning]

Where's my patch?