Official Zelda Patch and Changes Discussion Thread

[SM Mystic]

So...I feel like at certain percents, Jab to Up Smash is a true combo now. Can anyone test?

 

[Valamway]

So...I feel like at certain percents, Jab to Up Smash is a true combo now. Can anyone test?

You mean like, at really really low percents?
Jab to a quick dash jump cancelled upsmash?

 

[Freelance Spy]

I want nothing more than airspeed/maneuverability. I think that more control would open up the floodgates to all kinds of follow-ups.

I'd like brawl's upsmash back as a minor note. This one never connects it seems.

Faf buffs and landing lag changes are nice and all, but I feel fine with what we have. Even though it's not good. I just feel like I could do so much more with better control in the air than I could do with dome frame data tweaks.

Also phantom doesn't need to be storable imo, I think it needs less respawn or more HP though. It would be a perfectly serviceable move if you could act out of it. It still would wall and be a huge disjoint stores or not. FAF/endlag reduction + doesn't leave your arsenal for a year equals a great move I think.

Also fix din's freefall, that **** is insulting.

...Extremely insulting.

 

[KlicKlac]

Also fix din's freefall, that **** is insulting.

...Extremely insulting.

The most insulting thing about Din's Fire is how pathetic the damage it does up close. The explosion is so delayed that to hit someone with it you have to make a hard read and pray they don't just run up and hard punish you. But the reward you get for making such a hard read is so small, it's never worth it. Even worse, the explosion clashes with so many moves, sometimes you make the right read, but you're opponent was in the middle of an attack and it justs eats up din's fire.

IMO, din's fire needs to have a lot more stun or much less end lag, so you can do follow ups if you hit someone with it up close. It would be neat if you could hit someone with din's fire and then run up and lightning kick them while they were stunned.

 

[Lord Renning]

I don't like that you can spot dodge it so easily. There's absolutely no way to play with the timing.

You can roll away from it too. Or throw any move. Or projectile. The most amazing part is how they made the custom Din's Fires worse.

 

[ArthurPennington]

Din's needs a lot of things, off the top of my head I would give it: a speed increase and better vertical mobility; earlier explosion and more active frames on said explosion; increased base damage and size; increased shield damage; and significantly earlier FAF on release.

Unfortunately since the only change it has received is a Sweetspot size nerf, we're probably never going to see any of that, cause Sakurai apparently thinks it is too good a move.

 

[Meru.]

I agree Phantom doesn't need to be storable. Its design is already good.The problem with it, however, is that

- The start-up is too high, 31 frames is WAY too much
- The lag is too much, it's too punishable
- Charging it takes way too long, uncharged version is pretty much the only reliable Phantom
- The range is too little, it's supposed to be a projectile and it's easy to jump over it
- The reward is too little, uncharged it does nothing but tickling the opponent, charged it may be damaging but for a move that comes out on frame billion it's not that impressive

If half of of these points were adressed, Phantom would be a good move, even with some of its other existing weaknesses (reflectable, getting destroyed). I would prefer them touching the frame data (less start-up, faster charge,less lag), but if they buff things like its reward (more damage knockback) and its range (it actually functions like a projectile and goes somewhere) that would be fine too. Phantom has the potential to be a REALLY good move that could solve a lot of Zelda's issues (bad neutral) while keeping her design.If only they gave it the right adjustments...

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

So then what move/moves can we generally agree on need not even too much of a buff to truly be useful?
Phantom for sure, maybe NL with slight less end-lag...anything else?

 

[Lord Renning]

Just make lightening kicks do 100% damage and multiply the knockback.

Then we'll be okay without a neutral and Nintendo doesn't have to change her design.

Win/Win.

Seriously though, if Farora's Win could lose the endlag and total paralyses, I'd be so happy. I'm tired of dying because I was off by a millimeter and can't drift towards the ledge. Also make it do 100% damage.

 

[AncientCode42]

Personally I feel the Phantom should be cancelable between charges rather than storable. (Though the latter option could be beneficial too.) I feel like if the charge is what the designers are going for it'd help a lot to shield between charges, then you couldn't get punished for the atrocious 31 frame startup (That's too much with all the weaknesses it has to it) it could be a great move with some adjustments added to it.

Din's just needs tuning in general. No end lag, being able to move as it's moving along the screen or simply make the pathetic sourspots have some sort of reward would do something. I feel Din's would be quite unique if sourspot caused a minor spike or hit stun. And the sweet spot could send the opponent to you allowing for combos, that is if the hitbox gets bigger. Of course there's the no-free fall option too, I still would hope for that change.

The Lightning Kicks just need hitbox adjustments and no freeze frame, I feel as if the freeze frame as she hits causes massive end-lag, just make their cool down not so punishable to where two can be used from a single SH. The hitbox and hitbox placement need to be fixed. Make them almost as good as Melee, of course applying shield pressure would be nice too.

I feel if Farore's Wind had much less end-lag where Zelda could shield upon re-appearing this would make up for her lack of mobility. This is just me though.

 

[Rickster]

Idk I feel like the endlag on Farore's is actually justified given how much utility it gives Zelda plus the powerful hitbox.

Shield cancelable Phantom would be amazing. It would make us a lot harder to approach, since we'd be able to shield aerials, dodge grabs, and jump out of a charge. Heck you could even JC Nayru's or something to stuff their approach. It would make the opponent have to guess what Zelda will do each time she uses the move. Aka she'd actually have a superb defensive game like she's supposed to and a usable neutral.

Like if I could change one core thing about one of Zelda's moves, it would be that. So much missed potential with this move tbh.

 

[AncientCode42]

Idk I feel like the endlag on Farore's is actually justified given how much utility it gives Zelda plus the powerful hitbox.

Shield cancelable Phantom would be amazing. It would make us a lot harder to approach, since we'd be able to shield aerials, dodge grabs, and jump out of a charge. Heck you could even JC Nayru's or something to stuff their approach. It would make the opponent have to guess what Zelda will do each time she uses the move. Aka she'd actually have a superb defensive game like she's supposed to and a usable neutral.

Like if I could change one core thing about one of Zelda's moves, it would be that. So much missed potential with this move tbh.

But the thing is with Farore's Wind having no lag and Zelda being able to shield right after would create possibilities. She can kept the powerful hitbox/high KO factor, but be able to act out of the move upon re-appearing. This would allow Zelda to mind game as the opponent is force to shield or dodge either way due to the KO factor, considering they'd shield the re-appearing Farore's with Zelda being able to cancel it she could use that to her advantage and go for her already buffed grab and surprise Farore's/elevator KOs. Opponents would have to guess what she'd do each time upon reappearing, plus with how far it goes in distance this would make up for her lack of speed. This is just what I think though.

 

[Lord Renning]

If Sheik can have Bouncing Fish be a lagless actionable variable ranged horizontal recovery and kill move to make up for a lack of Zelda finishers, teleporting antics to make up for a lack of Zelda having access to Sheik's damage racking, speed, frame data, and godlike neutral seems kind of fair.

 

[buzzard]

I don't know if that's such a good idea, I mean Zelda would just spam teleport > followup/shield/evade all the fight (on top of the powerful hitbox). It would make her broken IMO and also a boring character.

What I think it'd be cool is if you could use Farore upwards and instead of being in helpless state she could strike with an aerial attack inmmediately or almost.

 

[Rickster]

...what? Farore's keeping its hitboxes without any lag is completely broken, even on Zelda. The proper way to do this would be what PM did; make the lagless version have no reappear hitbox. But that clashes with Zelda's core design philosophy. She's built to be more defensive, not offensive.

 

[AncientCode42]

I don't know if that's such a good idea, I mean Zelda would just spam teleport > followup/shield/evade all the fight (on top of the powerful hitbox). It would make her broken IMO and also a boring character.

What I think it'd be cool is if you could use Farore upwards and instead of being in helpless state she could strike with an aerial attack inmmediately or almost.

You do make a good point there. I actually had that as a second thought in mind. Perhaps that would be a better option.

Perhaps Rickster has a point. I guess I was being a bit too optimistic. lol Yeah that would be overpowered thinking about it, we don't want Zelda to be broken either. I will say though I like her KO option Farore's better.

 

[Valamway]

Shield cancelable Phantom would be amazing.

I've been saying this since 3DSmash came out.
We could do wavebounce shenanigans, and cancel into any natural OoS option...
Like, ROB gets a better projectile that he can store the charge AND cancel the charge.
Not fair.

I also think Phantom spawn should be "guaranteed" from frame 1.
The startup could be similar, but if we were hit out of it he would still appear.
Like Peach's turnip pulls.

 

[BJN39]

I've also been saying that shield cancellable Phantom charge is what could actually happen. If anything could actually happen.

Even without stacking charge or something like that. We just need to not be literally free if someone jumps while we're charging Phantom.

Also I known they've already taken off 8F of endlag since SSB4's release, but can we get more off pls&ty

Because reasons:

Spoiler: BJN'a 4/6/16 Phantom slash alterations list

Phantom Slash
        release animation FAF 47 -> 42
        phantom health 13 -> 16
    minimum charge
        damage range 6-8 -> 8-10
        kbg 100 -> 92
    medium charge
        damage range 11-15 -> 13-17
        kbg 80 -> 72
    maximum charge hit 1
        angle 62 -> 80
        hitlag x2.0 -> x1.5
    maximum charge hit 2
        duration 4F -> 5F
        size 4.0/4.5/5.5 -> 4.5/5.5/6.5

Damage increases to lower charges because they do poor damage for all the slowness.

Phantom health of even just 16 would do wonders. It would take more commitment for almost everyone to destroy the Phantom.

Slight kbg decreases to conterbalance the damage. Otherwise they would probably be a bit too strong.

The edits to the full charge variation should be enough to remove both the unreliability to land both hits on a shield, and also so that the second hit doesn't whiff if you hit with the far edge of the first hit.

Of course these damage numbers would put Slash on par with Strike. The other variations should obviously get similar adjustments as well.

 

[Lord Renning]

I'm not talking about being lagless, but we can't even give directional influence when we're falling in a helpless state for 3 seconds. Being helpless is fine, but I don't get why it's so important we fall straight down. That's the lag I want gone. I'd be okay with a reduction in grounded lag too, but just a bit. Like they do to spin slash and tether grabs. Still unsafe, but you can no longer run up and charge a smash to punish whiff.

 

[SM Mystic]

So guys, wanna know how Zelda fares against Bayonetta?

 

[Lord Renning]

Weirdly okay by Zelda standards because Love beats every combo starter and our defensive nature and lack of neutral leaves us naturally unable to take risks while our high KO power lets us kill her fairly early and we're already used to be one-touch KO'd by every member of the cast but Bayonetta can't really edge guard Farora's Wind?

 

[Meru.]

Bayonetta absolutely wrecks Zelda. Approach her is impossible and one if the most dangerous things to do. Her Dtilt beats our entire moveset and it's one of the best starters she has. She can approach is just fine though and she's super hard to punish.

Characters that do decently vs Bayonetta are those that have somewhat decent neutral games. I can tell you Zelda is not one of those. Add to the that the fact that Bayonetta's reward is much better than that of Zelda's (which sucks since that's Zelda's biggest strength, orbat least supposed to be) and you've got a pretty horrible matchup.

I don't know why we are talking about that in this thread though lol.

 

[Lord Renning]

Okay by Zelda standards does not preclude Zelda getting absolutely wrecked.

Bayonetta's Dtilt 7-9

Nayru's Love Intangible: 5-15

We have a 2 frame advantage, which is 200 milliseconds.

Human reaction time to auditory cues is 170 milliseconds

=

0.17 SECONDS

so we have .03 second grace period to press B.

Had we not gotten buffs, she could trade and hit up b with frame 4 Witch Twist and it would be scientifically impossible to win against Bayonetta in laboratory conditions, making it relevant to the patch.

The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, so R.I.P. headphones users.

 

[Valamway]

Bayo isn't our worst matchup, but it's far from a good one.
After Bayo gets balanced in the next patch, it'll be almost even.
Still not good for us, but maybe we'll get more buffs.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I don't know if that's such a good idea, I mean Zelda would just spam teleport > followup/shield/evade all the fight (on top of the powerful hitbox). It would make her broken IMO and also a boring character.

What I think it'd be cool is if you could use Farore upwards and instead of being in helpless state she could strike with an aerial attack inmmediately or almost.

Okay by Zelda standards does not preclude Zelda getting absolutely wrecked.

Bayonetta's Dtilt 7-9

Nayru's Love Intangible: 5-15

We have a 2 frame advantage, which is 200 milliseconds.

Human reaction time to auditory cues is 170 milliseconds

=

0.17 SECONDS

so we have .03 second grace period to press B.

Had we not gotten buffs, she could trade and hit up b with frame 4 Witch Twist and it would be scientifically impossible to win against Bayonetta in laboratory conditions, making it relevant to the patch.

The average reaction time for humans is 0.25 seconds to a visual stimulus, so R.I.P. headphones users.

Frame one nayru's please kapparai.

 

[Lord Renning]

Frame one nayru's please kapparai.

And make it do 100% damage.

 

[Amiracle]

Bayonetta if you spot dodge her DABK you can just UP B and kill her at like 60%. Just be patient and wait for those moments

I feel like Zelda's Dsmash is a bit better than it used to be. I'm able to do a lot more with it, and I'm starting to incorporate it more into my gameplay. I think the key to playing Zelda effectively is to always keep your opponent guessing as to which tool you're going to use next. She has a lot of kill options to be frank and her ledge guard game is astounding.

I play other characters but I always come back to her. If her Side B was actually useful it would make her much more enjoyable though

 

[AncientCode42]

Speaking of Dins what do you envision for the move? Dins really needs so much fine tuning. I've stated before I think Dins should work either as a long range combo setup, like having the sweetspot be way bigger so that the sourspot doesn't take over the whole attack (or have the sourspot have hitstun), make it send opponents toward you and have no free fall offstage. (Traveling hit box would be nice too.)

If Dins is suppose to work as a move where you have control of it the whole time why don't they make it like Dark Pit's arrows then? (Or even Pit's since it's slowly directional.) Make it start and end faster, no free fall and has hitstun as it hits the opponents. This may sound silly to some people, but it's a thought.

 

[BJN39]

My current short-run agenda is that Sakurai and co should not waste their "pocketful of patch changes" for Zelda trying to fix Din's Fire. To make the move functional would require a lot of improvements, many of which are changes that Sakurai and co would probably never do for the move. At least not all together.

• Less endlag on release
• quicker to hit on release (^or)
• more damage
• bigger sweet-spot (^or just make the whole hitbox strong/useful is a common alternative) (also gonna point out they NERFED the sweet-spot size in 1.0.6)
• bigger hitboxes (^or)
• better maneuverability of the wisp (very unlikely, less necessary)
• no free fall (very unlikely)
• transcendent hitbox (less necessary)

Literally every inch of the move could and needs to be made better. I'd be surprised if it even got a damage buff.

Anything more "unique" design-wise than these changes won't happen.

 

[SM Mystic]

I feel like Zelda's Dsmash is a bit better than it used to be. I'm able to do a lot more with it, and I'm starting to incorporate it more into my gameplay. I think the key to playing Zelda effectively is to always keep your opponent guessing as to which tool you're going to use next. She has a lot of kill options to be frank and her ledge guard game is astounding.

That Dsmash buff shortened the frames, so obviously you can do more with it. Like punish a double roll.

My current short-run agenda is that Sakurai and co should not waste their "pocketful of patch changes" for Zelda trying to fix Din's Fire. To make the move functional would require a lot of improvements, many of which are changes that Sakurai and co would probably never do for the move. At least not all together.

• Less endlag on release
• quicker to hit on release (^or)
• more damage
• bigger sweet-spot (^or just make the whole hitbox strong/useful is a common alternative) (also gonna point out they NERFED the sweet-spot size in 1.0.6)
• bigger hitboxes (^or)
• better maneuverability of the wisp (very unlikely, less necessary)
• no free fall (very unlikely)
• transcendent hitbox (less necessary)

Literally every inch of the move could and needs to be made better. I'd be surprised if it even got a damage buff.

Just a bigger hitbox in general is fine with me. No need to make the sweetspot bigger imo.

More damage would be good. Means more shield damage, which would be beneficial for Zelda in the long run. She wouldn't be punished as easily unless it's Sonic.

If Zelda were to get no free fall, Sheik would also have to get no free fall on her side b too (Canonically speaking). One can hope, so...

What's a transcendent hitbox?

Better maneuverability would be a big help. Would mean we can set Din's Fires close to our feet.

The first two is a no comment. That's one of the biggest issues with Din's to begin with.

 

[Lord Renning]

Din's Fire could be useful if they made it hang when you release B, and you have to tap b again to make it explode, and did 100% damage. Much like they did to Sheik's needles being auto-stored on B release. You could let it auto-explode after a few seconds too.

It's main use now is in doubles, because it's kind of hard to track in chaos, and you can poke your partner out of grabs from across the screen.

 

[Rickster]

Din's is bascially one of those moves Sakurai described in an interview as "useless in one on one but powerful in FFAs" or something along those lines.

 

[Amiracle]

I can see its use in doubles and I agree. Her teleport is also crazy good in doubles

 

[buzzard]

Din's is bascially one of those moves Sakurai described in an interview as "useless in one on one but powerful in FFAs" or something along those lines.

But it's not only useless in 1v1, it's straight up harmful

 

[AncientCode42]

That Dsmash buff shortened the frames, so obviously you can do more with it. Like punish a double roll.



Just a bigger hitbox in general is fine with me. No need to make the sweetspot bigger imo.

More damage would be good. Means more shield damage, which would be beneficial for Zelda in the long run. She wouldn't be punished as easily unless it's Sonic.

If Zelda were to get no free fall, Sheik would also have to get no free fall on her side b too (Canonically speaking). One can hope, so...

What's a transcendent hitbox?

Better maneuverability would be a big help. Would mean we can set Din's Fires close to our feet.

The first two is a no comment. That's one of the biggest issues with Din's to begin with.

So how about having Dins Fire just be Brawl Dins with no free fall? Outside of putting Zelda in a helpless state and some predictability it was the best version of the move.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Dins is not magically good in doubles. It still loses to any weak hitboxes and it is easy to avoid.

It may be marginally better in dubs, but only to the extent of EVERY other move in the game. If it's harder to avoid in dubs than so are needles.

Don't use dins.

 

[Lord Renning]

Ehh....

Needles only gain marginal utility in doubles, whereas Din's gains large amounts of utility, called having utility. Din's Fire is hard to see in the chaos of doubles, it reaches across the stage, and it's a good poke to break a partner out of grab or combo, and can't be intercepted like needles can. It can be aimed to hit both opponents, or force a block or reaction from both of them if they don't know who you're aiming at to make an opening or disrupt an action or safely relieve pressure, or to cover an off-stage option while your ally edge guards. That it can kill, unlike needles, and be modified, unlike needles, is nice. That you can fire it through your ally without hitting them to aid their approach and create or capitalize on openings with them, unlike with needles, is also nice. With the latest patch, it also has much more range than needles. Forcing an air dodge close to the ground with a Din's Fire gives landing lag that's much more valuable to a team than it is to slow Zelda on her lonesome. That's definitely not to imply that Din's Fire is better than needles, but just to say that every projectile doesn't get a flat boon. Saying Din's Fire is not magically good in doubles is like saying Zelda is not magically good in doubles, and you shouldn't use Zelda, but the consensus says otherwise. Actually consensus says to use Cloud, but it also says that Zelda goes from unviable to a decent doubles partner, and it's not magic. Zelda is magical though.

 

[Rickster]

Don't forget that you can even create G&W buckets of death or heal Ness and Lucas.

BJN39 I have a question about Din's being reflected. When it's "reflected", does the explosion only change ownership? If so, does that mean that someone standing really close to the reflector could actually get hit by the "reflected" Din's and take more damage since it would be powered up?

It would be really funny to get a KO like that.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Don't forget that you can even create G&W buckets of death or heal Ness and Lucas.

BJN39 I have a question about Din's being reflected. When it's "reflected", does the explosion only change ownership? If so, does that mean that someone standing really close to the reflector could actually get hit by the "reflected" Din's and take more damage since it would be powered up?

It would be really funny to get a KO like that.

That's pretty damn sweet.

In any case, dins is situational in dubs. Most of the time when dins would be useful you could get a similar effect by playing a different character and just, running...

Dins is a character sized glowing orb. It's only hard to see if you aren't paying attention. Most regular dubs players in my area would laugh at me for saying dins is hard to see in doubles because of *added confusion*. When you play enough doubles the added chaos is much less chaotic and much more normal.

I'm not convinced that it is a good move in doubles. Sure it becomes available as a move unlike in single format, but it still makes you stand still for a long time.

Not to mention that if you are using it at a good distance it's easy to avoid plus Zelda can't follow up after one; and if it's close it'll do punitive damage and still be horribly punishable.

Maybe it could be REALLY good in doubles, but it'd need the same fixes we want in singles to make it anything better than below average to situational at best.

 

[BJN39]

I legit have no idea what happens to someone in range when Din's is reflected, lol. My assumption is it gets a damage increase from the reflector's multiplier and hits 'opponents' aka anyone else in a 2v2.

Keep in mind that Din's Fire hitboxes are so small (especially the only actually harmful hitbox, the sweet-spot) that any team move involving reflecting Din's would be extremely impractical. Like, not worth it. Theoretically, landing a reflected x1.4-1.5 sweet-spot would be pretty powerful, but it's the SWEET-SPOT. Which is probably almost inside the reflecting character at the time.


Healing teams would like the Din's sweet-spot, though. Ness can heal 14-28% per sweet-spot, (min-max range. He heals 2x I believe.) and Lucas (iirc heals 3x damage?) would heal 21-42% per sweet-spot. That's pretty crazy. Since Zelda should do the turtling on a Lucas team, then that works even better. You just have to find time to heal Lucas~