Official Zelda Patch and Changes Discussion Thread

[Freelance Spy]

I don't know why but the ' X-Files' music started playing in my head

I got doctor who theme music...

I have never heard "ban Zelda" before. Sounds dumber than nerf greninja.

I say we have a Zelda strike of some kind. Use social media to cry like a bunch of annoying babies?

 

[Rickster]

I got doctor who theme music...

I have never heard "ban Zelda" before. Sounds dumber than nerf greninja.

I say we have a Zelda strike of some kind. Use social media to cry like a bunch of annoying babies?

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ban•zelda

 

[Alacion]

I have never heard "ban Zelda" before. Sounds dumber than nerf greninja.

+1 respect.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Alright gorls, I feel like expressing my thoughts and theories here to hopefully rekindle some hope to your tortured souls.

I think Zelda will get significant buffs within the next few patches. The balance team has a lot of work to do and I can only assume that they have sparse manpower due to the company working on other titles, moving away from smash because sakurai said so, and the mystery of smash for NX. Out of the 15,000+ matchups in existence, the team has to consider balance against a wide range of opponents for a character. Then you must factor in DLC characters. Suddenly the team has to stop tinkering with the already "finished" characters and work on things pertinent to their new deadline.

Now you have fire emblem characters being sent to the forefront to make sure they are not made irrelevant in the wake of the new character, oh and Shiek and ZSS have been stomping everything afirst, everyone begs for nerfs all over the social media so gotta do something there as well. Your time to check the status of a character with a diminutive playerbase is limited drastically. You need to focus on the important things first; such as making sure Marth mains don't ragequit from lack of fun. And whatever falco buffs you finished during your lunch breaks can be stuffed in the patch as well. Good enough for now, now we have time for the first time in a long time.

Time to look at the bottom of the barrel.

I think that what is happening isn't a lack of caring or communication, they have been doing a fantastic job cleaning up messes and listening to the playerbase for the most part. But that's just what it is, a job; there are deadlines and issues that take priority and there is (probably) only one team in charge of it.

I have no doubt that if a large portion of the playerbase had direct input of could help take the load off that the game would balance much faster, but as it is things are going to take time.

Zelda probably has a laundry list of changes not quite ready to be implemented. She is a terrible character and will require a LOT of work to get working right, way more than most characters. So much, that it could very well be a waste of time to rework her when there are three new characters that need to be ready in a month. Deadlines are real gorls.

Gorls, Zelda hasn't been forgotten. She is just going through some development hell. If we get any more patches you can bet that she will get substantial support. Most likely not enough to be A+ teir, but certainly something to make us feel better and perhaps we will start losing to players instead of their mains.

Stay sassy, hope will never die.

 

[Rickster]

Reminder that they nerfed Din's Fire back in 1.0.6

But really...I have a hard time having hope now. I personally don't think Zelda is the worst of the worst, but she's definitely somewhere in bottom 3 along with Jigglypuff and...some other character (tempted to say Samus but she actually has results so...). I think it's more that the devs don't know how else to buff her while also preserving their "vision" for her.

But the thing is...they continue to buff mid to low tier characters...over. And. Over. Again. That's just bizarre to me that they would do that while there are much worse characters on the roster.

I hope your idea is right, but I'm still doubtful. Also, keep in mind that Jiggs and Samus have been considered bottom tier since the game came out...and they've received even less than Zelda has. The devs have had plenty of time to review them and test changes.

 

[Valamway]

Honestly though, Din's was pretty OP for free for alls and for some single player modes.
Even in 1v1, I still occassionally get some ridiculously early kills with max distance sweetspots.
...Very occasionally.

There will definitely be at least one more balance patch, as there's no way they won't wanna touch more DLC characters.
I think this next patch might be the last one, and since they have no stages or costumes or characters to work on, it could end up being a pretty significant change overall.
No guarantee that they'll care about our "official" tier list at all, and I would never expect them to.
But Sakurai has a chance here, to make sure this game functions exactly as he wants it to.

 

[Furret]

Din's was pretty OP

let's be honest, no matter what they will do to din's it only effects 1 match up anyways

 

[Lord Renning]

There was an announcement from Sakurai that he's quitting and taking a vacation, but he misleads people so much I can't take him seriously. The idea that he's going to send the bottom of the cast to development hell between the content patch and when they release the actual final patch makes a lot of sense. Some characters just have broken or miss-matching hitboxes, or abysmal gameplans and data, and the dev team seems to take that very seriously.

Alternatively, I could see him giving everyone a well deserved break, and coming back to make changes after the data on the new characters rolls in. Calling it the final patch would stop the community from yelling at the team when they need rest.

 

[ZombieBran]

Is there actual stated plans for one more balance patch?
Then us gorls can get our hopes up only for Sakurai to buff Zelda's item throw strength and nothing else.

Honestly though, Din's was pretty OP for free for alls and for some single player modes.
Even in 1v1, I still occassionally get some ridiculously early kills with max distance sweetspots.
...Very occasionally.

Din's is not even OP in FFAs. It leaves Zelda open for far too long.
It's just not USELESS in FFAs.

Against CPUs every projectile is broken lol

 

[Lord Renning]

Quite the opposite. But you don't play Zelda if you let reality ground your ambitions.

 

[Freelance Spy]

Quite the opposite. But you don't play Zelda if you let reality ground your ambitions.

It doesn't say anything about balance patches at all tho.

We will just have to wait two months or so to see what happens.

 

[LightningHelix]

Literally only buff Zelda needs is one to din's fire. For starters, there is absolutely no reason that Zelda should free fall after a din's fire. Also, it is too easy to block/roll away from. I think it should have a shield degrading effect akin to Marth's shield breaker. At least that way it forces them to approach you and it improves Zelda's camping game as she has few decent approaches. Either that or make the end lag of the move way shorter so you can't get punished so easily. Every other of her B moves are solid.

The problem is she isn't mobile or fast, so aggro isn't an option and her camping game is awkward. Phantom slash is good for spacing out, but you're keeping them out to do what exactly? She needs them close to punish them and if they are patient they won't just run into you and get punished, so she needs some better camping ability to keep them from being too patient. Customs definitely help in this manner, but a buff into din's fire is really what we need.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

literally the only buff you need is a brain

 

[LightningHelix]

literally the only buff you need is a brain

Only buff you need is *********........on your face.

Now go back to whatever hole you crawled out of.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Now go back to whatever hole you crawled out of.

k lemme go get the lube

 

[Macchiato]

literally the only buff you need is a brain

Only buff you need is *********........on your face.

Now go back to whatever hole you crawled out of.

k lemme go get the lube

no get that kinky **** outta here

 

[Darktundra]

In smash 4, what make a character great is their ability to cover up options in a safe manner. Zelda is regarded as one of the worst characters in smash 4 because she cannot safely execute options that will counter the opponent's movements and while attempting to do so, her life is at risk. Fixing/improving Din's fire would not help her much because she prosper in close range combat.
On top of that she will still have no safe landing options that will allow her to smoothly transition to the ground. Zelda's attribute improving would make little difference; personally I like her weight because she falls out of many rapid jabs.
I highly encourage analyzing some frame data to see where she falls in comparison to other characters

Good examples
Zelda f-tilt compared to Marth/Roy's f-tilt
Zelda's grab compared to Marth's Grab
Zelda's down smash compared to Pit/Dark Pit Down Smash
Very similar yet one is just better

P.S. Zelda's Dash attack is so jank

 

[Lord Renning]

I pretty much live off of turn-around tilts and dash attack follow ups.

 

[BJN39]

ATTN: Actually since patches are done I'm gonna lock this ol' thread for good now. It was nice while it lasted, the OP still shows what we did manage to get over time (Pivot grab nerf and Din's sweetspot size reductions ) even though our character will remain with a mountain a flaws we did get some well-deserved fixes. All in all, pretty good patch history.

If y'all wanna talk future patch-esque things, I'll direct you to the "Things we want for Zelda thread."

Edit : http://smashboards.com/threads/things-we-want-for-zelda.418533/

Sooo.....

Obviously as soon as I'm like, "Okay I guess 1.1.4 is it!" we get ninja'd by a new patch.

So I guess I'll just keep this open yea.

Will add 1.1.5 changes to the OP too.

 

[LightningHelix]

So, Zelda seems awesome now. Hyperbole a little maybe, but noticeably better and a lot more satisfying to use. Could we see more Zelda presence at tournaments finally?

 

[Valamway]

Obviously as soon as I'm like, "Okay I guess 1.1.4 is it!" we get ninja'd by a new patch

I dun warned you gurl!

Anywayz even if these patches aren't really the hugest, they are giving Zelda some attention.
Which is much more important for developing a character's meta than any patch.
It's a hype time to be a Zelda main.

 

[SM Mystic]

So, Zelda seems awesome now. Hyperbole a little maybe, but noticeably better and a lot more satisfying to use. Could we see more Zelda presence at tournaments finally?

If people are willing to put in the work, then by all means. Zelda did get better, more damage on attacks which = more Shield Stun, Nayru's Love was fixed, and longer grabs, faster and slightly longer Ftilt and faster downsmash, and the Up Air changes, but that won't change how she's played overall. Just gives us more reward, and a little less risk.

 

[KlicKlac]

So, Zelda seems awesome now. Hyperbole a little maybe, but noticeably better and a lot more satisfying to use. Could we see more Zelda presence at tournaments finally?

There have already been players dusting off their Zelda's last weekend at tournaments. Most notably Purple Guy who has said he is planning on going Zelda now (He previously used Sheik and Zelda).

Honestly, zelda needs more speed buffs instead of the damage buffs she obtained in the patch. She still has a poor neutral that high tiers can easily exploit.

 

[BJN39]

Linking the thread where the 1.1.5 discussion began because I opened this a little late after the patch dropped.

http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-5-zelda-changes.433160/page-1

 

[Rickster]

Good news! Apparently, according to this patch video by Ksizzle and co.
( https://youtu.be/0exwrXo9UoE )
some of our damage buffs actually do make a decent difference in kill %s.

Uair vs Marth on Battlefield top platform: 100%>94% (6% difference is pretty nice. That's one Dthrow.)
Front Nair vs Marth near edge of FD (final hit only):172%>157% (easier to outright KO someone while edgeguarding now)

 

[LightningHelix]

There have already been players dusting off their Zelda's last weekend at tournaments. Most notably Purple Guy who has said he is planning on going Zelda now (He previously used Sheik and Zelda).

Honestly, zelda needs more speed buffs instead of the damage buffs she obtained in the patch. She still has a poor neutral that high tiers can easily exploit.

Unfortunately, I don't think she will ever get speed buffs, as I don't think her character is meant to be any faster than she is. Her improved defensive tools that can be used depending on the match-up and the damage buffs with rage could be enough to close the gap in the hands of a capable player, surviving is not always guaranteed though.

Still combos seem to connect better, defensive options seem decent and more useful and opponents stocks are lost much quicker than before. It's like we actually have a character now, instead of the butt of all smash jokes.

Still you have to be super patient in neutral and your approach options haven't improved at all and her options to force approaches haven't improved either, din's fire is still too easy to deal with and phantom is okay, but way too slow to use effectively to force approaches from afar, so you kind of have to approach, which is ass

For sure she isn't suddenly top tier, but I could see a few specialists who dedicate to her doing well in medium-large scale tournaments that aren't APEX or EVO, unless Nairo drops ZSS for Zelda (Spoiler alert....haha....never going to happen.) Love to see what Purple Guy will do with the improved Zelda.

 

[Lord Renning]

The scariest place for Zelda is still closing into that one step away from jab distance.

 

[KlicKlac]

Unfortunately, I don't think she will ever get speed buffs, as I don't think her character is meant to be any faster than she is. Her improved defensive tools that can be used depending on the match-up and the damage buffs with rage could be enough to close the gap in the hands of a capable player, surviving is not always guaranteed though.

Still combos seem to connect better, defensive options seem decent and more useful and opponents stocks are lost much quicker than before. It's like we actually have a character now, instead of the butt of all smash jokes.

Still you have to be super patient in neutral and your approach options haven't improved at all and her options to force approaches haven't improved either, din's fire is still too easy to deal with and phantom is okay, but way too slow to use effectively to force approaches from afar, so you kind of have to approach, which is ***

For sure she isn't suddenly top tier, but I could see a few specialists who dedicate to her doing well in medium-large scale tournaments that aren't APEX or EVO, unless Nairo drops ZSS for Zelda (Spoiler alert....haha....never going to happen.) Love to see what Purple Guy will do with the improved Zelda.

Yeah, you said some good points. I hope zelda will get the mewtwo treatment, if there is ever any future patches. As in getting tiny subsequent buffs in her speed/lag reduction.

 

[Lord Renning]

They tend to buff characters incrementally, and not leave character alone once they've started on them. Link keeps getting tweaked, and so does Kirby, while they continuously buffed Marth and Lucina and Ike over and over after starting until they got them how they want them. We see them doing the same thing with Greninja now, and Bowser, Mewtwo, ect. So now that they've started on Zelda, I think we're going to see her get incremental or not so incremental (lol 11% jab and lol Mewtwo's speed) buffs until she's good.

I doubt they'll make her fast, because Mewtwo is the speedy glass cannon, and Zelda's high risk high reward. So they'll either lower the risk, or keep amping up the reward until it's worth the risk, or some combination of both. They might also up her air speed to make air-combos easier, since they seem to want her to jump a lot after she hits or throws people.

 

[LightningHelix]

They tend to buff characters incrementally, and not leave character alone once they've started on them. Link keeps getting tweaked, and so does Kirby, while they continuously buffed Marth and Lucina and Ike over and over after starting until they got them how they want them. We see them doing the same thing with Greninja now, and Bowser, Mewtwo, ect. So now that they've started on Zelda, I think we're going to see her get incremental or not so incremental (lol 11% jab and lol Mewtwo's speed) buffs until she's good.

I doubt they'll make her fast, because Mewtwo is the speedy glass cannon, and Zelda's high risk high reward. So they'll either lower the risk, or keep amping up the reward until it's worth the risk, or some combination of both. They might also up her air speed to make air-combos easier, since they seem to want her to jump a lot after she hits or throws people.

Actually, increasing her air speed seems like something they could do and it makes quite a bit of sense.

I was thinking they would improve her options to force approaches so she can trap them. Like make Din's fire faster and more shield degrading, so people can't play too patiently, allowing you to trap them with Nair, D-Tilt and start some small combos, while still maintaining silver bullets like Nayru's Love or Phantom slash.

I would love to shake up a patient or campy opponent with a din's fire and read their escape option with something like elevator for the kill, but that's just me dreaming, they would have to seriously buff din's fire to be that useful.

But a defensive/aerial comboist could be a cool way to patch her towards. A better aerial mobility could let you get in and out of punish situations in the neutral. Granted I feel like that is really covered well by

 

[Lord Renning]

I don't think it would help her approach as much, since all of her aerials are designed to be unsafe on shield. But mobility is always good.

One thing that was interesting was how her back hits of Nair used to be stronger than the front hits, and Bair was faster than Fair. This implied that they wanted Zelda to fight backwards. Particularly with the correct way to DI her D-Throw, and the way the CPU does it, being to go behind her. This let you chain strong back hits of Nair into each other for more reward than approaching with Nair, and be better able to Bair people. I guess if they DI'd up or forward you were supposed to go for Up-Air. They reversed ship on that because it wasn't as cool in practice as it was in theory, but you have to admit the idea of Zelda fighting in reverse was nice.

 

[Rickster]

Just goes to show how backwards Zelda's character design really is
I'm so sorry.

 

[Meru.]

I think we're going to see her get incremental or not so incremental (lol 11% jab and lol Mewtwo's speed) buffs until she's good.

Jab doing 11% now was actually a really good chance. Aside from it being more rewarding, the 2% extra on the last hit gives the move more hitstun so it's easier to follow up. It also has a frame more shieldstun. I'm fine with her jab now, it's a safe and rewarding starter. Jab > grab > Dthrow > Nair does like 33%, jab > dast attack does 20+. Dsmash buff was probably the least useful one.

Phantom is the move I REALLY want them to change. I want to some frames removed from its start-up (31 is way too much! make it 22 or something), I want it to charge faster (so I can actually use the stronger version) and I want it to have less lag. This way it can be an actually useful move/projectile. It would actually help her approach without making it her strength while improving her defensive game.

 

[buzzard]

About Phantom, those changes would be great, and I know many would like a storeable phantom. Personally I'd be fine with one single change: canceling the charge (like Mewtwo/Samus with neutral B or Cloud with down B). It's painful when you know your opponent won't get hit and you release early so you can move out of the way before you are punished but Zelda is still too slow and they get you anyways.

That would make the move safer and it would let Zelda mindgame a little bit as well.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

What if Samurai's "vacation" is actually him checking tourney videos of sm4sh or going online and such to really see how he should patch characters..........NAH......well...maybe?.....nah doubt it...although..........nah no way.

But seriously though, if more patches come.....I have a feeling Zelda may start getting the treatment she deserves. Though they would have to be logical buffs to THEM so.....some endlag reductions on some moves or less lag there would be a good start. Maybe make some moves easier to land/safe on shield.

 

[Rickster]

They should just start giving her stuff she had in Brawl/Melee. They've actually nerfed some of her frame data across games. See: Aerials, Smashes

BJN39 could probably go into specifics.

 

[BJN39]

Giving her everything good from Brawl and Melee would be dangerous tbh.

Duly noting like, a lot of her moves would be stronger/have larger hitboxes from Brawl. Melee provided good FAFs.

I would say that adding all of her better Melee endlag totals would be a sizeable improvement alone.

Spoiler: What you'd see

Ftilt FAF 38 -> 35 (LOL my recommendation matches Melee's endlag. Duly noted this is strictly by endlag. Melee's FAF is 37 because the hitframe is 12)
Dash Attack FAF 40 -> 36
Fsmash FAF 50 -> 40
Dmsash FAF 38 -> 32
Usmash FAF 64 -> 51
NAir FAF 51 -> 42
FAir FAF 53 -> 36 (LOL)
BAir FAF 53 -> 33 (LOL!)
DAir FAF 45 -> 43
Grab FAF 38 -> 31
Dash Grab FAF 47 -> 41
Pivot Grab FAF 45 -> 40 (iirc this is Brawl's pivot grab FAF)

Also gonna mention some moves weren't this bad in Brawl. Usmash went FAF 51 -> 57 -> 64 through the three iterations iirc. FAir went 36 -> 40 -> 53, and Dsmash actually went 32 -> 40 -> 38 due to 1.1.5.

By SSB4's design though these numbers would be really skewed and "unfair" dare I say since we're talking Zelda. I'm always overly conservative with FAF buff ideas and try to base mine off of comparison moves.

Spoiler

Which is why these FAF buffs:

Ftilt 38 -> 35
Fsmash 50 -> 46
Usmash 64 -> 60
NAir 51 -> 46
Grab 38 -> 35
Dash grab 47 -> 44
Pivot Grab 45 -> 42

would all be perfectly fair tbh.

 

[Valamway]

I think we need to start accepting that parameter changes are not very likely:
Zelda will be pretty slow and light forever.

Overhauls to her special moves are several orders of magnitude less likely than even those:
Dins will always be slow and trigger a special fall.
Phantom will never be storable or cancel-friendly.

Buffs to frame data, including special moves, are more likely.
At this point, that's all I really want.
Damage, knockback, angle, etc would be good too but nothing is guaranteed.
Even if there is at least one more patch, Zelda might go untouched from now until the game really is finished.

 

[BJN39]

I remember when we thought Utilt FAF buff was out of the realm of possibility. There's always a chance of param buffs. Their patching is really unpredictable. With how many mobility/param alterations happeneed in 1.1.5, I'm gonna keep it in mind as possible.

That said it obviously wouldn't be huge buffs. I don't think anyone would think that.

Spoiler

My thoughts:
- run speed 1.3 -> 1.39 (Still a tiny bit slower than Link's current run speed, but better than before, and better than a few other characters now. Almost the same as Peach's run speed.)
- air speed 1.04 -> 1.09 (Matches Lucario's. Slightly better, could be noticeable in gameplay I think.)

Note that Samus's mobility buffs were larger than this. Slightly.

But yeah. Patches. Whenever I list changes to Zelda that I could see/want to be done, there's always so many FAF buffs lol.

 

[Lord Renning]

I remember when we thought Utilt FAF buff was out of the realm of possibility. There's always a chance of param buffs. Their patching is really unpredictable. With how many mobility/param alterations happeneed in 1.1.5, I'm gonna keep it in mind as possible.

That said it obviously wouldn't be huge buffs. I don't think anyone would think that.

Spoiler

My thoughts:
- run speed 1.3 -> 1.39 (Still a tiny bit slower than Link's current run speed, but better than before, and better than a few other characters now. Almost the same as Peach's run speed.)
- air speed 1.04 -> 1.09 (Matches Lucario's. Slightly better, could be noticeable in gameplay I think.)

Note that Samus's mobility buffs were larger than this. Slightly.

But yeah. Patches. Whenever I list changes to Zelda that I could see/want to be done, there's always so many FAF buffs lol.

If they buff Zelda's run speed they'd probably feel like they should buff Link's, and they've been adamant on never doing that. Then again, they're so unpredictable.

They do seem to like reverting moves to Melee or Brawl days for buffs. Link's Fair became Brawl, and his jab functions more as Melee.

Maybe Up Air will go back to being a miniature sun and Up Smash will be the invincible repulsion wall they were in Brawl.