Zelda Matchup Thread // OUTDATED

[Dark.Pch]

See your signature? I think it's funny how you get mad at people for that while you're assuming something about me. Aren't we cute?


And no, Ninjalink didn't influence my opinion. The myriad of Peach players soundly beating me did. Don't make up bull****.

Who said I get mad at that? WHO? look at WHO is talking. You just set a good example of my sig. AssumingSeriously, relax. The heck is up your butt?

I could honestly not give a damm if you boys think it is that bad of a match. better and more power to me to just destroy you like that.

I'm comming in here to tell you my side of the match up, not just yours. best to look and know how it feels from the other side to get a good understanding of a match up. You are the only one catch a PMS moment here. Learn to debate without being on period mode or don't bother comming to me with this. I don't care what NinjaLink says or what you think is right and wrong after the way you been running your mouth. I'm doing my damm job as a Peach main and member of this community to help others (really when I can just say fawk you all and worry about Peach mainers only). So Cool it.

 

[Brinzy]

Sorry for losing my cool. I'm just not used to people trying to tell me what does and doesn't work against my character while also not reading.

Regardless, allow me to go PMS. In the meantime, learn how to not get nair'd and maybe you'll sound more credible.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

*puts on debate nail polish*

well i already said earlier i think this princess battle is at worst 40:60 Peach. Zelda really has to leave her comfort zones to fight the woman.

Nair is very helpful to Zelda, and it helps in catching turnips along w/ pestering peachs air game, but its her tradeoff for losing Dsmashes help i think cause zelda can't often wack peach w/ it. at kill percents trading Utilt w/ Peachs Fair is too sexy. Peach does have a chance to escape from Uair, but thats all in the mindgames department cause her airdodge is trash, but her 2nd jump, float, and Bair help.

Dins should have like no effect on Peach, best just tossed to make her annoyed. even at long range peach doesn't have alot to worry about cause if zeldas shooting off she can just instafloat Nair and move closer at the same time. Peachs camping isn't toonie like camping, but it does very effective against zelda due to there flexibility.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I'm officially done talking to you around here, I'll talk to any other Zelda player. Cause you are obviously getting too butt hurt to understand what I am telling you.

And here is my tip for you. get some GOOD Peach experience and learn what a Peach player is telling you to help you understand a match up better than you THINK you know it. Also Learn to take advice and learn how to debate without being on your period.

Have a good nite.

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Now excusing this Mess, Nair is a good tool that helps against Floating Peaches. Done and used Right it is a good tool. Fair Can beat Zelda Nairs but Peach has to be on point with the timing and spacing since that is a 16 frame move. I forgot how many frames is Zelda's N-air. A smart use of Nair can get a Peach, I kid you not.

I say this match ups is like 60-40 at most. Least would be 45:55

 

[Brinzy]

Dins should have like no effect on Peach

No. No, you're wrong. YES IT DOES BECAUSE I SAID IT DOES, STFU ZELDA PLAYER.

EDIT: I'm not even debating with you, at all. Notice how I am actually a good poster when it comes to debating and how I don't go on, what you call, a period. I'm just treating this like nonsense because you're overhyping some ****ing Zelda nair, lol.

 

[KayLo!]

Let's all be friends, please.

I will say that nair is pretty good vs. Peach, in my experience. But that's all I can contribute..... the only Peach I ever play is super aggressive and turnip-happy. I have a feeling defensive Peach is a lot different and gives Zelda much more trouble.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I have 3 jobs, a boyfriend and I'm a full time student.

Fellow Smasher with a life! I approve.

Lol, I thought I was the only one.

Two jobs, generally have a girlfriend (not right now though), Executive Board for a regional organization and full-time student. Pretty much the reason why I rarely show up at tournaments.

I'm officially done talking to you around here, I'll talk to any other Zelda player. Cause you are obviously getting too butt hurt to understand what I am telling you.

And here is my tip for you. get some GOOD Peach experience and learn what a Peach player is telling you to help you understand a match up better than you THINK you know it. Also Learn to take advice and learn how to debate without being on your period.

Have a good nite.

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Now excusing this Mess, Nair is a good tool that helps against Floating Peaches. Done and used Right it is a good tool. Fair Can beat Zelda Nairs but Peach has to be on point with the timing and spacing since that is a 16 frame move. I forgot how many frames is Zelda's N-air. A smart use of Nair can get a Peach, I kid you not.

I say this match ups is like 60-40 at most. Least would be 45:55

I think I see what you're trying to say. If Zelda nairs while peach is floating close, Peach has no option but to retreat since fair isn't fast enough to deal with the nair on reaction and peach doesn't really have anything else that can beat out nair.

I also see why this deals with a lot of Zelda's issues with the match-up, Peach can't really destroy Zelda's spacing anywhere near as well if she can't float.

Question, but about bair, it's got a ton of priority.

 

[Dark.Pch]

An agressive Peach is easier for you to deal with then a defensive Peach. peach has no means to be rushing at Zelda since Zelda can be good at punishing her stuff. and when she does, that **** hurts. That's why I am usually cautious when going to Zelda. You can't just Rush her.

Playing it defensive makes Zelda approach sometimes, and she sucks at doing that. That's when she then gets baited and Peach uses the oh so many tools to get at her.

If you ever Face a Peach being aggressive on you, consider it a break. But don't get it twisted. Peach can get at Zelda while playing aggressive. But its a lil less stressful for Zelda to punish her for it.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I have no idea what a good Zelda looks like. I've never played a competent Zelda in my entire life.

I thought that you were a good Zelda, considering how much you seem to know about her...

I'm not talking about long range camping. I'm talking about camping within the range where Zelda wouldn't be using Din's. At that range, turnips force an approach. And that's probably one of the worst things you can do to Zelda.

Can you elaborate a bit? I thought that Zelda was good at approaching...

 

[MrEh]

I thought that you were a good Zelda, considering how much you seem to know about her...

That comment was a joke btw.

Can you elaborate a bit? I thought that Zelda was good at approaching...

She has a terrible approach. She has no move that's safe on block, minus her Fsmash, but that's a terrible option unless you're defending. Which you shouldn't be doing if you're approaching.

She has a slow grab and no usable jab in approaching situations.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

And her aerial game isn´t designed to be used to approach. It´s terrible for that.

BTW, why does every matchup discussion here turn into a freaking war nowadays? >_>

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I say this match ups is like 60-40 at most. Least would be 45:55

I've played this matchup enough to say that it's definitely worse than 45:55

 

[Kataefi]

Alright so since everyone's discussing peach so indepth I'm gonna make a rediscussion thread for her. I hope you can all take your posts there as this is meant to be about samus.

It's here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237496

Also if you want to find a past matchup we've talked about go here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232732 and then just click the necessary link from there

 

[mountain_tiger]

She has a terrible approach. She has no move that's safe on block, minus her Fsmash, but that's a terrible option unless you're defending. Which you shouldn't be doing if you're approaching.

She has a slow grab and no usable jab in approaching situations.

Really? I thought she had some good approach options. Of course, I might be missing something, so if there are any flaws here feel free to tell me:

- SH Naryu's Love
- SH Nair
- Grab (yes, it's slow, but it has the third best non-tether range in the game IIRC)
- Farore's Wind (but only if used sparingly...)

 

[Brinzy]

Nayru's has horrible range, attacks slowly, and is laggy.
Nair is her best approaching aerial, and her aerial approaches are all terrible.
Grab being slow does hamper it.
Farore's Wind should *never* be used to punish anything short of another Zelda's Din's Fire

She is slow, she is easy to predict, and all you really have to do is shield and watch for her hands to move in a dash grab, which is incredibly slow. If someone can keep on top of watching her, there really is nothing she can do while approaching.

 

[mountain_tiger]

So basically what you lot are saying is, if someone forces Zelda to approach, then she's essentially ****ed. Well, I guess I'll take your word for it; you probably know Zelda better than I do...

 

[Brinzy]

Smart play is needed to work around this; it is what Zelda is worst at and is really the main thing that makes her so bad.

 

[RoyalBlood]

What I'm trying to explain here is that you can't say a character has the advantage over another character by going solely off of what you see at tournaments or how you do vs your friends. It doesn't work like that. When you guys start bringing in BAITING and MINDGAMES into a match up discussion your whole point of view practically becomes invalid. Baiting and mindgames are intangibles, you can't discuss them. They don't show how a character matches up against another, just the player vs the other player.

Check it out

This makes almost all of your points invalid, you know who you are.

Also, Samus was the current discussion, go make another thread if you wish to discuss something else or request a theme change.

 

[Brinzy]

Actually, Sonic has more options to mindgame his opponents than Zelda does. That is completely tangible.


(adum educated me)

 

[RoyalBlood]

Completely missed the point, theme/topic evation = Insecureness

I guess it's OK. Mindgames working = better player.


PS:: Please don't reply to this, no more meaningless arguments.

 

[Brinzy]

I didn't miss the point. I was actually talking to Steel2nd in that quote, but I guess I didn't make that clear.

 

[KayLo!]

Check it out

This makes almost all of your points invalid, you know who you are.

I read Steel's entire post (I'd only skimmed it before), and I agree with most of what he says. But if you're going to quote that, I feel like I should quote Adumbrodeus in response:

There's a lot I agree with here.

However, in terms of mindgames, I've gotta disagree. This is one of those things where you need to get a better paper. Like it or not, mindgames have an enormous effect on match-ups, because if everyone just did their best option all the time, then the one character with the best overall option would win every single game.

So, instead of looking at it in terms of the mindgames themselves, it's best to look at the characters in terms of mindgames potential, which is completely 100% quantifiable.

Factor in raw chance (my options versus your options, randomly picked, who wins), margin of error (how precise the timing), potency of the counter on mistake, and other factors and you get a picture of how effective the character should win at "mindgames" and how effective the characters counters are at mindgames without ever leaving tangible evidence and never using player skill.

I did a complete explanation of this on a previous thread.

Like he said, mindgame potential does come into play, but you have to do it right. Many people, however, do it wrong.

I advise everyone to read both of those posts and use that knowledge for discussing matchups in the future. It's a really good read.

PS:: Please don't reply to this, no more meaningless arguments.

Oops.

 

[Ochobobo]

I just updated that Zelda/Sheik Matchup chart in the first post.

The most noticeable difference is that Game and Watch used to be 40/60 for both Zelda and Sheik, and is now 25/75 for Zelda and 45/55 for Sheik. That really puts things in a newer perspective, lol.

 

[MrEh]

I like my chart better. Not for the artistic aspect of it, but because the ratios seem more realistic. XD

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

they both look wrong to me.

why don't they have a baby so they can meet in the middle.

 

[Brinzy]

What I still don't understand is how those that know others better than anyone else here can say that a match-up is ____ while that chart completely nullifies it.

 

[KayLo!]

They're just numbers. Nothing to get butthurt over.

Experience/actual knowledge of each matchup >>> the ratio itself.

 

[Brinzy]

I agree with that, but I'm not getting butthurt over anything. Not sure where you got that idea. The chart is about ratios, so that is why I am discussing ratios.

 

[Ochobobo]

they both look wrong to me.

why don't they have a baby so they can meet in the middle.

Yeah I agree with some, but just so you know they're all the matchup ratios we came up with in those discussions.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I read Steel's entire post (I'd only skimmed it before), and I agree with most of what he says. But if you're going to quote that, I feel like I should quote Adumbrodeus in response:



Like he said, mindgame potential does come into play, but you have to do it right. Many people, however, do it wrong.

I advise everyone to read both of those posts and use that knowledge for discussing matchups in the future. It's a really good read.

Thanks for the show of support.

They're just numbers. Nothing to get butthurt over.

Experience/actual knowledge of each matchup >>> the ratio itself.

Everything is something to get butthurt over, the internet is serious business, remember?


Regardless, I think the issue overall is that a lot of the match-ups are simply outdated, the metagame has changed enough (and not in a way that favors Zelda) that at least a few of those ratios are gonna be worse.

 

[KayLo!]

I agree with that, but I'm not getting butthurt over anything. Not sure where you got that idea. The chart is about ratios, so that is why I am discussing ratios.

.....What? Why are you getting so defensive? Afaik, I never mentioned your name, nor did I quote you.

I was making a general statement.

Thanks for the show of support.

No problem.

Everything is something to get butthurt over, the internet is serious business, remember?

So I've noticed, which is why I've largely stopped contributing to this particular character board.

Regardless, I think the issue overall is that a lot of the match-ups are simply outdated, the metagame has changed enough (and not in a way that favors Zelda) that at least a few of those ratios are gonna be worse.

That's what the re-discussion threads are for, right? There's no way to discuss every matchup at once..... at any given point, some of them are going to be outdated no matter how fast you try to get through them, especially while other characters' metagames are still in the process of evolving. That's just something y'all are going to have to accept.

It's either this or have blank spaces for everyone we haven't gone through again.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

at least we don't have to redo DDDs >.>

whens the last time his metagame advanced to warrant a big relook?

we should just have a thread to discuss "Aircamping: How does it screw our princess?"

that takes care of quite a few characters i think

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

What I still don't understand is how those that know others better than anyone else here can say that a match-up is ____ while that chart completely nullifies it.

honestly, probably because the chart is just a chart and why should the boards as a whole say "let's just take this Ochobobo or Mr. Eh chart as law with no thought or discussion?"

 

[Brinzy]

.....What? Why are you getting so defensive? Afaik, I never mentioned your name, nor did I quote you.

I was making a general statement.

Well when you see something go

- post made by you
- my post
- post made by you which goes off from my post

... it's very easy to make that assumption.

honestly, probably because the chart is just a chart and why should the boards as a whole say "let's just take this Ochobobo or Mr. Eh chart as law with no thought or discussion?"

Still, the main reason I'm showing concern is that people will look at these charts and base it off of whether or not they'd use Zelda for certain matchups, or whether or not things are ok, or whatever. I'm sure that some of the more... powerful users on this forum look at charts and take them seriously.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I'm not ENTIRELY understanding what you are trying to say. Are you worried that the SBR is going to look at Ochobobo's list and increase Zelda's tier position or that they'll look at Mr. Eh's and lower it?

I'd say they wouldn't do something like that. But I think they ask a monkey when it comes to any decision they make about Zelda.

 

[Brinzy]

Nothing that drastic, but I do think people will look at them and try to come up with reasons as to why it could be such. "This match-up is blah blah blah according to this/that/these charts, and it's because of this, that and the other."

It happens all the time. Ratios are also a decent way to tell a story. Saying, for example, that Zelda is 60:40 against DDD would give most users a different perspective on things than if she were 40:60. Because of these reasons, I think that they still hold some importance, and I just hope these charts are pretty reflective of what we've been talking about (at least the recent parts of it).

 

[KayLo!]

Well when you see something go

- post made by you
- my post
- post made by you which goes off from my post

... it's very easy to make that assumption.

I never posted before you......

But I think they ask a monkey when it comes to any decision they make about Zelda.

I lol'd.

Zelda's just not important enough. A few switched-around matchup ratios isn't going to do anything, and tbh, the ones we should be focusing on are low tiers since that's all Zelda's good for. Low tier tournaments (if she's allowed).

In terms of matchup numbers, all someone really needs to know is that the farther up the list you go, the harder it's going to be, ranging from doable to ridiculously impossible. (I actually think MrEh's chart shows this rather nicely with the color coding.)

Then you go play in tournaments and get yourself some experience. End of story.

 

[Brinzy]

I meant the other way around. *smacks forehead*

Actually, just ignore that part. That's why I assumed. All I meant.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I never posted before you......

She's actually refering to herself in the second person because she's using the second person to refer to the insulted party (aka, the linguistic, "if you were in my shoes").

"Somebody else's post" would've probably been better then "my post" in this case though, basically if you reverse you positions (you being the insulted person, Successor of Raphael being the insulted person) it makes perfect sense, which since Successor of Raphael was trying to get you to put yourself in Successor of Raphael's shoes, works.

I meant the other way around. *smacks forehead*

Actually, just ignore that part. That's why I assumed. All I meant.

Or the reversal was accident, maybe that's what happened, lol

I lol'd.

Zelda's just not important enough. A few switched-around matchup ratios isn't going to do anything, and tbh, the ones we should be focusing on are low tiers since that's all Zelda's good for. Low tier tournaments (if she's allowed).

In terms of matchup numbers, all someone really needs to know is that the farther up the list you go, the harder it's going to be, ranging from doable to ridiculously impossible. (I actually think MrEh's chart shows this rather nicely with the color coding.)

Then you go play in tournaments and get yourself some experience. End of story.

So, pretty much. Unfortunately being "not important" comes with the territory. At least with Marth I can be reasonably sure that they have a fairly accurate understanding of him.

 

[Ochobobo]

honestly, probably because the chart is just a chart and why should the boards as a whole say "let's just take this Ochobobo or Mr. Eh chart as law with no thought or discussion?"

They were discussed, lol. That's how those numbers were made, by what mostly everyone agreed upon by the time the discussions were over. I just put them together.

We'll probably rediscuss a lot of these, though...