Zelda is the Worst Character in the Game.

[KayLo!]

While I agree with this, I know a lot of people who dont. Seriously I dont get why people are shamed to pick up MK.

The only reason why I refuse to pick up MK or dislike seeing people pick him up is because it makes tournaments godawfully uninteresting. In this region especially, there are so. ****ing. Many. MKs.

It gets so boring after a while seeing MK vs. [insert character, usually another MK or Snake or another overused top tier] every other match. I don't even watch GFs most of the time, lol.

That said, she does make a reasonable secondary for a Marth player such as myself.

Or for a Pikachu maiiiiin~. =D

Except not really, because G&W, Diddy, Marth, and Olimar are still bad.

She only helps for ICs and other Pikas, tbh. x.x The latter only because I hate dittos.

 

[Aibou]

While I applaud people who have a "can do" attitude when it comes to bad characters like Zelda/Ganon/etc., the bottom line is this: if you're playing against semi-pro/pro players, you will not place exceptionally well with Zelda in a standard tournament environment. (EDIT: When I say "place well," I mean place in money in tournaments with notably good players in attendance.) I don't mean to be a negative nancy, but to win with Zelda, you have to be a LOT better than the common MKs, Snakes, and other top tiers running around; at top levels of play, the skill gaps between players generally become small enough that people will quickly learn + abuse Zelda's weaknesses after a match or two. It's not hard. And you probably won't have the skill advantage to make up for that.

That's true, Zelda just can't make it in the tournament scene. But there's still no excuse to whining about it. If we want to play Zelda, then we have to accept the fact that we won't win. And maybe, if we actually try to move ahead with Zelda instead of wallowing about how crappy she is, maybe something might get accomplished. It's a very slim chance due to those **** matchups she has, but that's what a reliable secondary is for (not that that does anything for Zelda herself but at least it can improve the player's chances of winning).

I really think people should start using Zelda for what she's good for: doubles, low tiers, wifi...

I have that area covered. I've entered quite a few (though only two have finished so far). It's my thing until I can go to a real tournament.

People who try to use her for characters like Snake and the like are just asking to get 2-stocked or more when the opponent learns that all he has to do is nade camp, ftilt, and utilt.

That MU is too much fun not to use Zelda in it...

If you're dead set on using Zelda for regular tournies, pick up a secondary, use Sheik, something, ****. There's no loss of pride in doing that.

A lot of us wish we didn't have to do that, but it's the truth.

 

[KayLo!]

That MU is too much fun not to use Zelda in it...

Zelda vs. Snake is hella fun....... if I haven't paid money to enter a tournament.

Friendlies and small mms are one thing, but I really don't understand people who use Zelda for Snake (and other ridiculously impossible MUs) in tournament. It's literally nothing but a waste of money if the other player is in any way competent. @.@

I dunno, maybe Riot can enlighten me since he's the only hardcore Zelda main we got left, lol.

 

[.Marik]

I suppose this is the 11th topic you've trolled, right Mars?

 

[zeldspazz]

Riot said that Snake was actually about as easy/easier than DDD I think the DDD MU thread iirc. We should seek his wisdom lmao

 

[Half-Split Soul]

What !oLyaK said:

Close dis ****. But in the meantime, since it's open:

It's upsetting because I, along with everyone else here, love Zelda and want to win with her.

Nah, I just play her because of a bet I made in Melee days. /semitruth

If you're dead set on using Zelda for regular tournies, pick up a secondary, use Sheik, something, ****. There's no loss of pride in doing that.

Let me add: if you're dead set on using Zelda for regular tournies with the hopes of placing high. If you only go to tournies to have fun and don't really care about the outcome there obviously is no need for secondaries/Sheik/etc.

While I agree with this, I know a lot of people who dont. Seriously I dont get why people are shamed to pick up MK.

Probably because of the "OMG U TOTALLY WON ONLY 'CUS U USED MK!!!" attitude many people have. Also, if you aren't either pro or serious tournament player it's very easy get labeled as a tier *****.

 

[noradseven]

As far a picking a terrible character in a tourney when I go to a tourney im not there to win Im there to get better, if I am there to win that means in my mind I am better than everyone else there, which happens when I see a tourney with a bunch a scrubs I go ohh look free cash.

Probably because of the "OMG U TOTALLY WON ONLY 'CUS U USED MK!!!" attitude many people have. Also, if you aren't either pro or serious tournament player it's very easy get labeled as a tier *****.

This attitude bothers me because like most fighters this game is like 70-80% knowing the game and just like 20-30% knowing your character, if you know definitely the game better than the other guy unless the matchup is like 8-2 or 9-1 your going to win, plus MK is NOT that easy to play, partially because every single other player knows the matchup and MK doesn't lol insta win versus most of the played cast as much as many of the other S -tier character do.

Like when I see ppl who switched from MK from someone else I see one of 3 things, too much reliance on nado(rare for good player), too much relyance on flight and up B, too much reliance on j.d-air(okay this actually does invalidate some of the cast but still, not the whole cast). I know I fall into the last category myself.

Like it would be different if lets say MK was mad easy to learn and 8-2 or worse over 3/4 the cast

 

[-Mars-]

I suppose this is the 11th topic you've trolled, right Mars?

Considering this is my own topic I don't really consider it trolling when i'm being dead serious lol.

I think Zelda used with Sheik is still pretty good, MK is also not an auto-win against most of the cast....you neeed to be extremely technical with him to become good, and if you were to pick up MK right now you would be 2+ years behind other MK players.

 

[Kofu]

Just poking in to say that part of the reason Zelda may have worse tier results than Ganon is the mindset people use to play against them.

Zelda was thought to be decent in the beginning, and as such people play well against her.

Ganon's always been bad, so people don't play properly against him.

Plus making a mistake against Ganon is usually a bit more devastating than making a mistake against Zelda. Lightning Kicks hurt though.

 

[Aibou]

Just poking in to say that part of the reason Zelda may have worse tier results than Ganon is the mindset people use to play against them.

Zelda was thought to be decent in the beginning, and as such people play well against her.

Ganon's always been bad, so people don't play properly against him.

Plus making a mistake against Ganon is usually a bit more devastating than making a mistake against Zelda. Lightning Kicks hurt though.

Tell it like it is, Kofu *nods in approval*

 

[Bandit]

I'll throw something in here.

Zelda is ultra defensive, and we all know that. You must abuse your TP smashes, abuse Dtilt, and her range effectively. There was a time when I almost never jumped when using Zelda because why use a risky aerial when I have a safe smash.

Zelda destroys the low tier characters, does ok in the mid tiers, and presents unique matchups to a lot of the high tiers. I say unique because she presents approach problems. MK's cannot use glide approach, dash approach or even tornado if you time stuff right. They have to actually think, use their quickness, and bait you (which is Zelda's game only without the quickness).

Zelda is a tough character to play, but she is far from the worst in the game. Even in Brawl+ she is mid-tier at best because her move set is just that bad even when buffed.

Jab is a good anti-air move.
F-Smash is a pretty safe smash, great range, and tp.
U-Smash is the best smash in the game. Period.
D-Smash is a great killing smash that should be used for the spacies, link, ganon, etc
U-Tilt needs d-tilt setup and is more powerful than U-smash in kill percents
F-Tilt is stupid
D-Tilt is amazing. Period.
LK's are ok. When they flub, it sucks for you.
D-Air is a fantastic aerial. Flub spike is like a footstool and sweetspot is 4th strongest in the game. And it is high priority/disjointedness.
N-Air is meh but useful.
U-Air needs dins setup.
Naryu's sucks... and so does love jumping.
Dins is a pressure aerial when they are off stage or strong distance.
Dash attack is 5 frame goodness but highly shield punished.
All Grabs and Throws suck though U-throw to U-air does work (at least on fast fallers).

I've been playing Zelda for a year and a half. I can't play any other character in regular brawl, and I can only play 2 other characters in Brawl+ (none of which are Sheik). I love her play style, and I just have gotten a lot better with her. Her defense is almost unrivaled. She has a projectile camping weakness, and if she gets timed out, it's because Brawl was built to do that.

If someone times you out, rip out their controller cord then strangle them with it. Then, when they are gasping for air, tell them you are timing them out and they should just quit. See if they ever time you out again. (I know, mean, but this is Brawl )

In the end, Zelda is lower middle tier. Her metagame is slow to develop because there are just a handful who play her seriously. She has a simple, straight forward game because that's how she was programmed. To play her at a high level, you have to make smart decisions, space correctly, and abuse her abilities. You might be able to say that about any character, but with Zelda, it is extremely important to be technically sound. She does not have the ability to be played sloppy and win.

I have no idea if I summed up the post or not, but I am done typing for now.

:bandit:

 

[Aibou]

Zelda destroys the low tier characters

That's truth. She suffers a bad MU against Ike and that's pretty much it. Others are roughly even or in her favor imo. Shouldn't that alone prove that she's not the worst in the game?

U-Smash is the best smash in the game. Period.


:bandit:

MK has a d-smash unfortunately T.T

 

[Bandit]

MK has a spammable, d-smash that is quick and powerful. I agree 100%.

Zelda has an U-smash that only a handful of aerials in the game beat. This renders most aerial approaches useless against her. It also abuses platforms. And it has tp like MK's d-smash. For all its uses, it is probably the most used smash of any character. Without it, she would be the worst character in the game. That's how good of a smash it really is.

 

[★Chaos★]

so basically zelda has alot of bad MU's, is a crappy character, but just isn't the worst character in the game. u have to admit she is bad but if ur good with her and believe then can get somthing accomplished. she has a good Usmash that u can rely on when in trouble and distress.her Usmash is a high priority move that is almost impossible to beat. use it often cuz without she is the worst character in the game. cuz then she doesn't have much priority or a helpful counter attack. ganon only has a spike. without it he would possibly be unplayable and always last
u zelda's have no idea what the ganon mains are going through. they're trying to fight past link, falcon, and jiggly. constantly but until the next tier last they wont know if they got somthin accomplished. i honostly doubt zelda is F tier material, shes not like ganon or link. zelda isn't the worst but isn't close to the best. PERIOD

 

[Aibou]

W-what the heck? Chaos what are you doing here?!

 

[-Mars-]

Zomg Bandit owned this thread!

I miss the days when me, Bandit, and Kyle used to argue about matchups and stuff. Good times.

Edit: Also Samus destroys Zelda imo.

 

[KayLo!]

so basically zelda has alot of bad MU's, is a crappy character, but just isn't the worst character in the game. u have to admit she is bad but if ur good with her and believe then can get somthing accomplished.
u zelda's have no idea what the ganon mains are going through. they're trying to fight past link, falcon, and jiggly. constantly but until the next tier last they wont know if they got somthin accomplished. i honostly doubt zelda is F tier material, shes not like ganon or link. zelda isn't the worst but isn't close to the best. PERIOD

You, sir, have a KH avatar.

I like you.

 

[Aibou]

Edit: Also Samus destroys Zelda imo.

Oh hell yeah. I forgot about that one. Maybe not destroys, but it's not exactly in Zelda's favor. Yoshi's kinda hard too (for me). Though none are unwinnable.

 

[★Chaos★]

You, sir, have a KH avatar.

I like you.

um.........thx i guess

 

[MrEh]

Kingdom Hearts was fun until I realized that I'm pressing one button blindfolded and winning.

Jab is a good anti-air move.

Marth and MK are laughing. A move that is situationally useful is not good.

U-Smash is the best smash in the game. Period.

Haha. No.

D-Smash is a great killing smash that should be used for the spacies, link, ganon, etc

Dsmash rarely kills. If you are killing with Dsmash, then you could have kicked your opponent at a much lower percents. Dsmash sets up for kills, it rarely does it on its own.

U-Tilt needs d-tilt setup and is more powerful than U-smash in kill percents

Utilt needs no set up. If you are relying on a dtilt setup, then you're never going to land this move at high levels of play. Utilt needs one thing to be useful: fear. Airdodges are eaten. The end.

D-Air is a fantastic aerial. Flub spike is like a footstool and sweetspot is 4th strongest in the game. And it is high priority/disjointedness.

Dair is a terrible aerial. MK's Dair is a fantastic aerial. Peach's and Wario's Dairs are good aerials. Zelda's Dair is mediocre.

U-Air needs dins setup.

Uair does not need Din's setup. Not in the traditional sense anyway. Uairs need only one thing to be useful: fear. Airdodges are eaten. The end.

Naryu's sucks... and so does love jumping.

Naryu's is better then Dair.

 

[Bandit]

Zomg Bandit owned this thread!

I miss the days when me, Bandit, and Kyle used to argue about matchups and stuff. Good times.

Edit: Also Samus destroys Zelda imo.

Past: Good times

I have never had a problem with Samus. Her power missiles can't hit you if you don't jump. Her homing missiles are just annoying, her charge blast is telegraphed, and she's slower than us.

I've also never lost to DDD or Yoshi.

Just sayin'

:bandit:

 

[adumbrodeus]

1 word, zair

 

[mountain_tiger]

Marth and MK are laughing. A move that is situationally useful is not good.

It's main uses aren't really for anti-air purposes. It's good because it's one of only two moves that has both fast start-up AND cooldown (the other being DTilt), and the low cooldown means that at low percnets you can follow up quite well.

Haha. No.

It's definitely not the best smash, but it's still good, especially on heavy, fast falling characters. If they SDI up and out, then that simply opens them up for another USmash... You can often juggle slower characters 3 or 4 times with good prediction.

Dsmash rarely kills. If you are killing with Dsmash, then you could have kicked your opponent at a much lower percents. Dsmash sets up for kills, it rarely does it on its own.

DSmash mainly kills due to the angle it sends her opponent, rather than the knockback itself. It ***** agaisnt characters like Link and Ganondorf. Plus it's easier to land than most moves due to how fast it is.

Utilt needs no set up. If you are relying on a dtilt setup, then you're never going to land this move at high levels of play. Utilt needs one thing to be useful: fear. Airdodges are eaten. The end.

Agreed.

Dair is a terrible aerial. MK's Dair is a fantastic aerial. Peach's and Wario's Dairs are good aerials. Zelda's Dair is mediocre.

Zelda's Dair is worse than terrible. It is actually genuinely laughable at best.

Uair does not need Din's setup. Not in the traditional sense anyway. Uairs need only one thing to be useful: fear. Airdodges are eaten. The end.

Agreed.

Naryu's is better then Dair.

This goes without saying.

 

[-Mars-]

Jab in no way has fast startup. Just pointing that out it's like frame 11 or something, the low cooldown is nice and jab can create a nice semi-wall against characters with little range.

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, jab's not fast on startup at all. x.x It's faster than fsmash, which can come in handy sometimes, but it's basically just a baby fsmash that's easier to follow up on.

Btw, @Bandit: I watched people play B+ the other day (didn't get to play myself), and Ganon's sped up jab is ****ing hilarious. Fast *** arm thrust, lol.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ah, so I see as Im the only one who agrees that dair is actually a decent move?

Its one of my saving graces when I play Peach because it can gimp her with a sweetspot lmao.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ah, so I see as Im the only one who agrees that dair is actually a decent move?

Its one of my saving graces when I play Peach because it can gimp her with a sweetspot lmao.

Never in my life I had a Zelda gimp me with that move. Itp easy to weave and see comming.

 

[zeldspazz]

Never in my life I had a Zelda gimp me with that move. Itp easy to weave and see comming.

Its wifi. Nuff said.

And the fact I dont play top level Peaches like you on a daily basis ;_;

 

[Dark.Pch]

Its wifi. Nuff said.

And the fact I dont play top level Peaches like you on a daily basis ;_;

Come to NYC and I'll make it happen.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Yeah, jab's not fast on startup at all. x.x It's faster than fsmash, which can come in handy sometimes, but it's basically just a baby fsmash that's easier to follow up on.

Btw, @Bandit: I watched people play B+ the other day (didn't get to play myself), and Ganon's sped up jab is ****ing hilarious. Fast *** arm thrust, lol.

It's not fast compared to other jabs, but its fast in its own right. I consider anything below average reaction time (which IIRC is 12 frames) fast. Though yeah, it's basically a baby FSmash.

Ah, so I see as Im the only one who agrees that dair is actually a decent move?

Its one of my saving graces when I play Peach because it can gimp her with a sweetspot lmao.

Only if the Peach player isn't very good or doesn't expect it.

 

[zeldspazz]

Only if the Peach player isn't very good or doesn't expect it.

I actually think the Peaches I play are pretty decent. It gimps at like 100% when it send them for enough down without a sweetspot to recover. And mostly the surprise factor and the worse reflexes caused by wifi.


@Dark: I wish I could but no traveling far for me :\

You could come up to Syracuse

 

[KayLo!]

It's not fast compared to other jabs, but its fast in its own right. I consider anything below average reaction time (which IIRC is 12 frames) fast.

11 frames isn't fast.

MK's dsmash is fast.
Zelda's dsmash/usmash are fast.
Snake's ftilt is fast.

Jab isn't fast.... it's not even one of Zelda's faster ground moves. It's pretty average.

But I guess if anything less than 12 frames is fast to you, then, uh. Cool.

And mostly the surprise factor and the worse reflexes caused by wifi.

You just countered your own argument. @.@

 

[zeldspazz]

You just countered your own argument. @.@

Why? He said it was because my opponents were bad. Suprise factor isnt bad, its just.....a surprise. And yes, wifi lag helps too, but Im sure it would dampen it too much from offline play.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's not fast compared to other jabs, but its fast in its own right. I consider anything below average reaction time (which IIRC is 12 frames) fast. Though yeah, it's basically a baby FSmash.

Average gamer is 10 frames, top of the metagame is 8.

 

[KillerJawz]

Zelda has an U-smash that only a handful of aerials in the game beat. is.

It is also ridiculously easy to DI out of.

Kaylo is correct zeldaspazz you did kinda just counter yourself xD

 

[Bandit]

D-air is a beast move. Zeldas just can't be afraid to go out and use it.

U-smash is ridiculous to DI out of because (judging by your icon) you are a Samus/Zamus main. They pop out of Zelda's smashes all the time (sometimes without DI).

I land most of my U-Airs after connecting with Dins. True combo.

Her moveset is crap, but most of it has a use. That's mainly what I was getting at.

:bandit:

PS - Seriously, Naryu's has almost no use in her moveset. As a reflector, you have to hit your opponent with the projectile, or be punished for using NL. Wind down sucks, hitboxes are not consistent, and love jumping is some stupid thing someone found when they recovered incorrectly. If you are love jumping, you are recovering wrong.

 

[KayLo!]

Naryu's is bad, but I'd argue that dair is ~equal to it in usefulness. They're both crappy, risky, situational moves, although sweetspot dair has a better payoff (but is also harder to hit with).

 

[mountain_tiger]

It is also ridiculously easy to DI out of.

Kaylo is correct zeldaspazz you did kinda just counter yourself xD

That depends on the opponent. Fatter, faster falling characters can have a lot of trouble DIing out of it (though small characters can usually DI out of it fairly easily). Regardless, it simply puts them above you again, resetting the whole thing.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Don't forget that it also depends on how you hit with Usmash. It's much harder to SDI out of a hyphen Usmash that hits you straight from the side, trapping you in the middle of the move next to Zelda, than it is out of one where she only hits you with the very tip of her arm swing.

 

[Kataefi]

Only 8 or so characters can reliably SDI out of usmash without needing to react on the first hit. Marth, Samus, Lucario, ICs, Ness, Lucas and Pit. I'm sure there's one other I've forgotten. With the rest of the characters it's doable but much harder.

It actually has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the opponent is big, small, light, heavy, floaty or fast falling.

And even then... it's totally dependant on the hitboxes at hand and the spacing. Some of the characters above can still get stuck. In contrast, if you catch people on the side tips of Usmash they drop out and punish, namely smaller characters.

Basically the move was programmed to be unSDIable according to PSA. Nair is similar, except with this move Zelda has some control over the opponent's SDI here.