Yugioh, Pokemon, Magic, and other various TCG's discussion

[Life]

(YGO)

Also that deck with Exodia coming up on average on turn 2 - 3 Luke means your best possible win % would be less than 8% of the time.

Considering that there are only 5 possible cards that can draw on play or out of hand during the same turn. 2 of which were restricted up until recently. So by turn 3 you have drawn 8 cards. Of the 40 minimum you must have in a tournament deck, 25% of them can draw the cards you want, (unless you draw Exodia off the first draw, which is highly unlikely but still possible). Out of those 5, only 2 give you redraw on each consecutive turn. This means that out of your 40, there are a possible 6 cards that can increase your chance of drawing by one more on turn one, 2 on turn 2, and a third by turn three. Add to this getting any one of the exodia in your hand on the first draw, which then restricts your ability to draw the other exodia cards. There were 2 cards available when Exodia was available that would allow you to sort through the deck to find any one of the pieces. However, when exodia was introduced, it was banned in competitive play.

So as Grim said, the Exodia deck has never been a very viable deck. Especially now with cards that make you discard on draw and destroy your hand entirely.

There is so much wrong with this post my head hurts. Factually:
1. Exodia decks draw a LOT more than eight cards in three turns. The probability is complicated, but testing shows the chance of a well-built, fast Exodia deck getting all the pieces by turn three is a lot higher than 8%.
2. Exodia has never been banned. http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Historic_Forbidden/Limited_Chart
3. The existence of and recent hype surrounding Dark World makes running hand discard a bit of a sketchy proposition right now, or has something new come up that makes me wrong?

Opinion: Exodia was a reasonable (if never popular) strategy at one point, using the level-8-destiny-heroes engine (or whatever they're calling it now). A user over at TCGPlayer (I think his name was Card-Trader) once won a regional (or came very close, it's been forever) using that strategy. I personally messed with the Cards of Consonance / Trade In engine a while ago (using BEWD and that egg thing) and found it inconsistent, but not nearly as bad as this thread makes it out to be.

tl;dr I've been gone forever, but Exodia is better than you think (or at least was).

Finally: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264400

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Last time I tried to make an Exodia deck it used this pretty weird engine, let me see if I can dig it up on TCGPlayer. It didn't really work though, drawing Exodia cards too early messed with consistency.

EDIT: The deck used Divine Sword - Phoenix Blade, Kuraz the Light Monarch and D.D.R. - Different Dimension Reincarnation.

I got draw power by special summoning Kuraz over and over (usually via DDR) and destroying cards to draw and removing Kuraz from play via Phoenix Blade (getting a +1 in hand in the process) until I drew Exodia.

I tried a few win conditions with it but none of them ended up working, unfortunately, I should take a stab at it again now that there are some new sets out.

 

[Remastered]

OK the reasons why you have misread by statement.

1. The draw of 8 cards is the regular draw phase for that amount of turns, if you read on further, I go in to explain how any one of these cards increases your draw rate and by how much.
2. I didn't state that exodia was banned, but the cards that draw them in the deck were. Not the exodia specific, but the ability to draw on the deck cards were. The forbidden pieces have always been restricted to 1 as far as I'm aware.
3. Dark world is incredibly popular, and easy to take down along with it. Double edge sword play is popular but needs set-up. Hand discards used to be gimmickle, and random at the best of time, but there are a number of synchros and other such switch in's that can make you fold your hand and even clear the field completely.

Exodia has never been a safe option in my own opinion, but others opinions may differ. I had the exodia deck and saw no success with it, so I have experienced that pain Grim.

Edit: On a side note Grim, if you still have the original exodia and a support deck, I would recommend selling it, as it still fetches a ridiculous price these days.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I already sold all my cards, thanks though

And yeah, Exodia... is blegh. I tried to do a plant build as well which I am interested in looking at again...

 

[asianaussie]

is there a certain deck you have in mind, tibs?

i can set you up with deck staples (if you're going to melbourne battle roads this sat) but the rest is up to you - buy singles if you come to a decision, don't buy sealed packs

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fark, why is Necroface still limited?

 

[Life]

1. Your paragraph was kind of confusing. It's definitely above 8% tho. I've seen claims of 70%+ from certain builds (though I think it's an exaggeration, something like 50% in three turns seems totally reasonable).
2. "There were 2 cards available when Exodia was available that would allow you to sort through the deck to find any one of the pieces. However, when exodia was introduced, it was banned in competitive play." Again with the confusion. I assume you're referring to Sangan and WOTBF, then? The latter is banned, but it didn't get banned until Chaos forced it to be forbidden, while Exodia's been around since the beginning. Still factually wrong (WOTBF+Exodia was legal for a while), just a different fact, heh.
3. Again, I've been out of the loop for a while. Mind linking a few examples? Say, from the past year or so?

Grim:

Ah, the Kuraz engine. I vaguely remember that, but I could never get it to work right either.

Plant Exodia... hm, I'd be concerned that it'd be weak with the lack of Lonefire and all.

Necroface life gain decks were great back in the day, never really understood why they never took off in America (are we too lazy to play slow decks?)

Makes me tempted to pick up YVD or something similar again and see what I can get working m'self, but there's so much other crap I could be doing instead...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim:

Ah, the Kuraz engine. I vaguely remember that, but I could never get it to work right either.

So far I can get it to work, but without a win condition. i.e. it mills through my entire deck consistently within 1-2 turns, but it can't win.

Whenever I add a

Plant Exodia... hm, I'd be concerned that it'd be weak with the lack of Lonefire and all.

Oh, no, no, no. Plant Kuraz, not plant Exodia.

Necroface life gain decks were great back in the day, never really understood why they never took off in America (are we too lazy to play slow decks?)

It just annoys me because I made this AMAZING (in my opinion) deck that was super consistent, swarmed, beat down and locked down but just as I finished it, Necroface was limited

Makes me tempted to pick up YVD or something similar again and see what I can get working m'self, but there's so much other crap I could be doing instead...

If you get YVD, hit me up, I'm keen for a game.

 

[Remastered]

@ Grim: If you are looking at a plant deck, I am assuming you will most likely be structuring around tokens? If so, can I suggest a card called Black Garden I think it's called, I haven't used my plant deck in a while. Also you will want the Synchro card Black Rose Dragon (again not 100% sure the name is right) as it gives you the ability to wipe the entire field. Which if you are using tokens, effectively only destroys your opponents cards.

Look it up and structure around that if you like, otherwise I would be happy to sell you my current plant deck with it included. Very decent deck.

Imferiority: Sorry for my poor, confusing descriptions, I am currently at work, typing like a mad thing without proofing it. Your understanding is sound enough, but I think you would be hard pressed to basically say an Exodia deck would win every second time it is used in the first 3 turns of the game. Very hard pressed. With current decks as they are now, Exodia winning in 3 turns under 8% is incredibly reasonable. Due to the extensive amount of draw in an exodia deck, I would expect the likelyhood of pulling all pieces to your hand to go up greatly as the game plays on (dependant only on your opponents deck), however 8% in 3 turns with your opponent countering draw, and knowing exactly what your strategy is, I thought was a very reasonable estimate. Remember too, that as soon as most decent players see any of the key cards in exodia draw builds, they will act to counter it.

Your understanding does seem reasonable for early on the games build, nowadays though Exodia is almost non-existant. Do you still play at all?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Not looking for a plant deck, just some plant tech to add to give the Kuraz engine a win condition And I didn't quit THAT long ago, I know what the key plant cards are

 

[Remastered]

Not looking for a plant deck, just some plant tech to add to give the Kuraz engine a win condition And I didn't quit THAT long ago, I know what the key plant cards are

When did you last play?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Let me see... When did the ban list that brought Dark Hole back come out?

Cause I quit at the exact same time as that.

 

[Remastered]

That wasn't too long ago really, and please tell me that wasn't the reason you quit?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, definitely not.

I quit for 100% monetary reasons. Only things I've done with Yugioh since is teach wh1te5had0w how to play and discussed stuff in this thread.

 

[Remastered]

If you ever travel oos, we will have to duel. You can choose the deck I use, I don't honestly mind.

I have the Wattlock deck too, so just don't pick that one.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'll need to get a new deck first, I sold all of my cards, but I'll totally take you on your offer!

 

[Ghostbone]

Dark Hole's legal in yugioh these days?

Interesting >.>

I haven't played since like 2008, and that wasn't competitively at all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dark Hole's unbanning was controversial to say the least.

 

[Remastered]

Yeh, the argument against it was primarily because it doesn't target, and it has no cost in some instances.

I don't mind dark hole, and even now that it's legal, I still don't have it in my decks.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The only reason I don't like Dark Hole is because the strategies you can use with it don't out-weight it's luck sackyness.

I mean, the chance of you drawing it and just getting "lol+1" (or even higher numbers mid to late game) is way more likely than the player actually using it strategically (blowing up their own Sangan, for example).

 

[Remastered]

I have adjusted my deck slightly for dark hole (nothing drastic), giving me 3 free special summons from anywhere as long as I control no monsters. Plus I have 2 cards that block blanketing spells, and 3 effect monsters that destroy it before activation from graveyard, field or hand. The fact that a card can cause an entire deck to change, shows how broken it really is, but there are always ways around it, and to stop it.

I personally don't like any card that blankets, rather than targetting because they make so many cards unattractive to use, when they should be 100% viable in almost every other instance. I suppose this is why most blanket cards are restricted though.

 

[Darkwing SykeDuk]

just found out bls envoy is legal again.. zomgwtfhax

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know, I just read that as well.

****'s old school.

 

[tibs7]

@aa: battle roads is sunday right? not saturday

anyway. need psychic energy (i think, ill look for more), proffessor juniper, duosion, pokemon: communication, catcher and collector. rare candy's alot i think :S
i could go with reshiboar but i really dont want to. might go boar with someone else, mmm ill come up with something

 

[asianaussie]

oh god

i have a feeling you chose the deck i happen to be playing

if it's gothitelle/reuniclus ill give you my list and you can play it, i might not actually go >_>

 

[tibs7]

lol haha. yeahhh i kinda am.
got reuniclus in a booster the other day and was like yeahhhh why not.
but i dont have the zekroms and reshiroms for it. am going on troll and toad adding crap to the cart. mmm just will take time to get which is why i think i might even go to the geelong one the following week
and please come. even though i dont really know you...

 

[xXArrowXx]

play tyram.. its the cheapest and probably best deck.... =p

 

[asianaussie]

Melbourne's current meta is a load of Ross.dec, Reshistuff and Stage 1s, which means TyRam is not as good a play as Goth imo. The only Mew player I know of isn't going. Not much ZPST either, but Goth will win ZPST if they survive the first 2/3 turns. TyRam is hella cheap but you won't be able to get the components in the 3 days between now and then.

I'll do all I can to get there and can lend you some deck staples.

Don't run Reshiram, run more Zekrom.

 

[xXArrowXx]

zpst is great 2....
or just put together a water deck to troll tyrams cause they deserve it

 

[asianaussie]

if you want to piss off tyram, play reshiboar with SEL and lots of Switch

though blastoise can walk all over reuniclus decks (to be fair it's a setup race more than anything)

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

tyram is pretty good. I run SEL in it myself actually. xD

If it wasn't for Magnezone and Zekrom I would run Blastgatr cause I like being able to snipe for 100 every turn. Needs to have some really good fighting tech that isn't Donphan though.

 

[asianaussie]

Blastzel with Donphan doesn't sound too bad to be honest

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

no but Blastoise really doesn't need the recoil damage. Maybe I could try Blastzel with reunicles (lol spelling) and Vileplume. Probs wouldn't work too well but then with Donphan Prime things might be all right.

 

[asianaussie]

You could try Krokorok/Krookodile. Torment is the biggest ******* of a move ever.

 

[tibs7]

U can't go today
I have to go to church/ study win for me aa

 

[blaze3927]

duelmasters is not in that list
thread is invalid

 

[swordsaint]

i liked duel masters

 

[Remastered]

^ ^ This bothers me because I don't know if you are trolling, or if duel masters is actually a real card game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Was Duel Masters that one where the anime was a Yugioh rip-off and the TCG was a Magic rip-off?

 

[Pete278]

I don't think you've played Magic very much if you think Duel Masters was anything like it.