Yoshi v. Meta Knight

[Delta-cod]

The reason it didn't inspire us is because this match up is unwinnable against a smart MK (read: doesn't run into grabs and usmash).

There's no point, there's nothing to do. We can't safely pressure him and we'll just eventually run out of space on the stage. Then we die offstage.

 

[~Firefly~]

Wow, you guys are really pessimistic. ._. I don't think it's that bad, but I don't think I can say much to support that for two reasons; one, my theorycraft is bad; and two, I'll probably get region-flamed for saying MK isn't that bad. :x

I do want to see what others have to say about the MU right now...

 

[Delta-cod]

Wow, you guys are really pessimistic. ._. I don't think it's that bad, but I don't think I can say much to support that for two reasons; one, my theorycraft is bad; and two, I'll probably get region-flamed for saying MK isn't that bad. :x

I do want to see what others have to say about the MU right now...

You just don't live in a MK full region. It's horrible and it sucks and it's depressing and it makes me want to quit this game.

Anyways, everything I really have to say I said in my last post. There's no way to safely approach him or string him, so a smart MK will avoid damage forever. A smart MK will also take forever to kill, because he can avoid everything so easily it hurts. I was trying to learn to go aggro on MK a bit and see if it would work, but nothing. I got stuffed. Over. And over. And over. And over. A MK that knows his options will not let that work. A MK that knows his options will not let your camp work, either. You'll just slowly be pushed offstage.

**** MK.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Meta Knight is the only MU I use Yoshi for....

I think...

 

[Shiri]

Just play Diddy, seriously.

Much less work for infinitely better results.

Use Yoshi for Snake--I cannot actually express in words how much more tolerable that matchup is.

 

[Deleted member]

Mk really isnt that good guys >.>
Its hard, but its not like MK is some god character. Just get better, all there is to it.

/smashboards rehabing

 

[indigestible_wad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNRKwNfQt4w

Don't do this.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Holy crap.. I'm.. I'm astonished at what you've done. And THREE Times at that.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Just play Diddy, seriously.

Much less work for infinitely better results.

Use Yoshi for Snake--I cannot actually express in words how much more tolerable that matchup is.

truu...

but I like Yoshi v. MK

Mk really isnt that good guys >.>
Its hard, but its not like MK is some god character. Just get better, all there is to it.

/smashboards rehabing

This guy knows wassup

 

[.Marik]

Wow, you guys are really pessimistic. ._. I don't think it's that bad, but I don't think I can say much to support that for two reasons; one, my theorycraft is bad; and two, I'll probably get region-flamed for saying MK isn't that bad. :x

I do want to see what others have to say about the MU right now...

What are you talking about?

You got two-stocked by Clouderz, who isn't even a top Meta Knight.

The matchup is pratically impossible if we're playing against knowledgable players.

 

[Braxton2011]

I've been considering learning the MK match up with Yoshi for a long time. I only do it for fun right now...

I only really use Yoshi vs Ganon or Wario.

Wario/Ganon vs Lucario is too scary ;~;

Spoiler

I used Lucario vs M2k and got 3 stocked.
Then I used Yoshi vs m2k and got him down to 1 stock

I just need to play more different match ups.

 

[indigestible_wad]

That's probably because you switched your character to something that he doesn't normally play against. Also, the fact that you switched may have screwed him up a little.

 

[~Firefly~]

What are you talking about?

You got two-stocked by Clouderz, who isn't even a top Meta Knight.

The matchup is pratically impossible if we're playing against knowledgable players.

fail

Most of my matches with him went to last hit. >.> There was like, one match that I remember getting two-stocked out of 10+ matches. Me losing to a mediocre MK doesn't make the match-up impossible anyway, it just means I'm bad and need to get better. When have I ever said or implied that any of my matches are anything close to the peak of the metagame?

 

[.Marik]

fail

Most of my matches with him went to last hit. >.> There was like, one match that I remember getting two-stocked out of 10+ matches. Me losing to a mediocre MK doesn't make the match-up impossible anyway, it just means I'm bad and need to get better. When have I ever said or implied that any of my matches are anything close to the peak of the metagame?

You losing to a "mediocre" Meta Knight does in fact, show how stupid the matchup can become.

Imagine it at top levels of play, when the Meta Knight is a lot smarter, and then compare how much more options Meta Knight has over Yoshi.

If you're not trying to imply something, then what's the point of posting in a thread?

Seems like a logical fallacy to me.

 

[Deleted member]

>.>
Seriously its not that bad.
Egg lay ***** MK

 

[~Firefly~]

You losing to a "mediocre" Meta Knight does in fact, show how stupid the matchup can become.

Not if I'm equally mediocre.

Imagine it at top levels of play, when the Meta Knight is a lot smarter, and then compare how much more options Meta Knight has over Yoshi.

Yoshi still has options. And it's not like we have any great Yoshi mains anyway; the best MK mains are much smarter players than the best Yoshi mains in the first place. Yoshi losing all the time means the MKs are much better players, not necessarily that Yoshi vs. MK is unwinnable, which is what other people are saying.

If you're not trying to imply something, then what's the point of posting in a thread?

Seems like a logical fallacy to me.

lmao

Saying I've never implied that my matches mean anything is not the same as saying I'm posting for no reason. >.> I made my original post to question the extreme pessimism on the match-up expressed by the posts above mine. I'm implying something, just not what you're telling me I'm supposed to be implying.

 

[indigestible_wad]

fail

Most of my matches with him went to last hit. >.> There was like, one match that I remember getting two-stocked out of 10+ matches. Me losing to a mediocre MK doesn't make the match-up impossible anyway, it just means I'm bad and need to get better. When have I ever said or implied that any of my matches are anything close to the peak of the metagame?

You're also supposedly one of the top five yoshis, so you should be doing better at this stuff, and because you're not says something about how terribly the rest of should be doing, and therefore how bad the matchup is.

 

[~Firefly~]

Except I'm definitely not one of the top five Yoshis.

...Unless you're talking top 5 in Canada.

*crickets*

 

[Deleted member]

Forget it.
Wad thats a terrible arguement, just because you get 3 stocked by mediocre MKs doesnt mean that its an unwinnable matchup.

W/e im done here, the fact is, if you are losing to MKs that arent top MKs nationally, you should get better instead of complaining.

Its bad, not impossible

 

[indigestible_wad]

The past three posts I've made have been completely sarcastic. I'm cracking up because you think it's a horrible argument.

I don't think the matchup is unwinnable. The only reason I posted that video was to poke fun at myself for doing the same stupid thing three times in a row against some who knows me really well. I kind of like the matchup actually.

 

[Judo777]

I don't know that much about the MU but i do know this. Yoshi doesn't have many options against MK but neither does anyone else in the game. No body can actually attack MK in the air or on the ground in a head to head scenario. But the people that can combat MK in the air are character who are capable of out maneuvering MK in the air like Wario, Marth, and even Zss.
Yoshi does also out maneuver MK in the air so at least you have a few more options in the air then 75% of the cast.

Characters that can actually combat MK on the ground and put up a fight are characters that can in one way or another out range him on the ground. Be it projectiles on massive hitboxes characters like Snake, Diddy, Falco, and Marth have a way of out ranging or at least coming close (in marths case). Yoshi also has a few options in this area. He has a pretty good projectile that MK cannot swat and can setup and even combo into other things. And his pivot grab is pretty freaking big too. Also he has some pretty big smashes and his tilts are fairly long when coupled with his great ground mobility via his double jump garbage i think yoshi has some tools here also.

Lastly everyone, everyone gets ***** by MK offstage. The only people that don't get ***** by MK offstage all have 1 thing in common. Btw i am referring to snake, and wario and maybe jiggs. They have the ability to completely avoid MK in the air entirely. Snake just by the way his recovery works and wario through his insane aerial speed and multiple jumps same with jiggs. Yoshi has a few options here also. 1 if yoshi can recvoer high MK should never be able to hit u ur air speed is just too high and ur b reversals allow you to do what snake does only way better. If u can recover high at least u have something that not even wario gets. You have the ability to lob projectiles to help cover ur jump and u have heavy armor on ur double jump. Wario has to jump and try to outspace or use his airdodge while moving to get past MK while ur airdodge moves farther and u have heavy armor before that.

Granted im not saying the MU isn't bad because it probably is but Yoshis problems are the same as everyone elses but yoshis at least has some tools to deal with it.

 

[.Marik]

Sigh.

I'll break it down.

Yoshi still has options. And it's not like we have any great Yoshi mains anyway; the best MK mains are much smarter players than the best Yoshi mains in the first place. Yoshi losing all the time means the MKs are much better players, not necessarily that Yoshi vs. MK is unwinnable, which is what other people are saying.

No.

Compare the number of options between Yoshi and Meta Knight. Imagine both parties playing to win.

Top Yoshi players lose to top Meta Knight players.

It's not the players that are important, necessarily, but it's the character's viability in a particular matchup at hand. Matchups are always examined at top levels of play, so we'll naturally assume both parties are knowledgable with their designated mains.

If Clouderz is, as you say, mediocre, imagine facing Mew2King or Dojo.

"But I'm an equally mediocre player!" No kidding. You live in Alberta.

On a serious note, it's safe to assume you're both around the same level.

You still lose the majority of games in a set. There's a reason why this happens.

lmao

Saying I've never implied that my matches mean anything is not the same as saying I'm posting for no reason. >.> I made my original post to question the extreme pessimism on the match-up expressed by the posts above mine. I'm implying something, just not what you're telling me I'm supposed to be implying.

You lose to a bad Meta Knight. Now imagine good Meta Knight players.

If you didn't lose a matchup that's supposedly not bad, it wouldn't be a logical fallacy.

Except I'm definitely not one of the top five Yoshis.

...Unless you're talking top 5 in Canada.

*crickets*

I'm the best Yoshi in Canada. Scientifically proven.

I love you. But the matchup is bad.

Come to Ontario, you'll see what I mean.

It's not impossible. Nothing is impossible, but realistically, Meta Knight has the advantage by a significant amount.

 

[Shiri]

I rate this matchup

hopeless/10

 

[Poltergust]

The match-up is not hopeless, you guys. >_>

Honestly, this is nowhere near one of Yoshi's worst match-ups, so why the melancholy?

 

[~Firefly~]

Stuff

lmao

Why are you turning this into a debate? >.> All I said is that Yoshi vs. MK isn't unwinnable, and you're just responding with walls of text blowing my comments out of proportion and treating my experience as though it's at all relevant to the peak of the metagame, while making a lot of bad generalizations and throwing in more than a little bit of regional bias. None of this is at all relevant to the thread, so I'm just going to stop posting now.

Totally called the region flaming BTW.

 

[Deleted member]

Im curious polt, who would you say is worse.

I can only think of...
uhhh
diddy.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I see all these posts...

and only Burntsockz and Polt's posts says anything

Every other post has a whole lotta nothing

 

[demonictoonlink]

From an MK perspective, there actually are some things to be scared of.

And before I write, could everyone just not be a ****** to this post? Most of you seem cool, but there's one or two of you that, when anyone says it's not horrible for Yoshi, just flip ****.

Pivot grab is annoying for MK. It doesn't limit him TOO much, but it beats a lot of ground option.

Being above Yoshi at high percents. I'm pretty certain MK's dair>Yoshi's Uair, but it kills so freaking early and this is one of those times that MK's ****ty air mobility matters.

Gimping Yoshi is... awkward. If they aren't SDing, Yoshi should probably be making it back.

Usmash...It puts a lot of pressure to space Dairs.

No shield poking... Tornado is still pretty good in the MU, but just needs to be used more safely.

Yoshi seems to be able to kill MK pretty well overall. He's got a lot of stuff that once it KO's you, you're just like...what move was that? lol And stupid GR shenanigans. I'd definitely say 60-40 MK.

 

[.Marik]

From an MK perspective, there actually are some things to be scared of.

And before I write, could everyone just not be a ****** to this post? Most of you seem cool, but there's one or two of you that, when anyone says it's not horrible for Yoshi, just flip ****.

Pivot grab is annoying for MK. It doesn't limit him TOO much, but it beats a lot of ground option.

Being above Yoshi at high percents. I'm pretty certain MK's dair>Yoshi's Uair, but it kills so freaking early and this is one of those times that MK's ****ty air mobility matters.

Gimping Yoshi is... awkward. If they aren't SDing, Yoshi should probably be making it back.

Usmash...It puts a lot of pressure to space Dairs.

No shield poking... Tornado is still pretty good in the MU, but just needs to be used more safely.

Yoshi seems to be able to kill MK pretty well overall. He's got a lot of stuff that once it KO's you, you're just like...what move was that? lol And stupid GR shenanigans. I'd definitely say 60-40 MK.

This post would be good, except it forgets to mention Yoshi can't handle shield pressure.

Due to Yoshi having poor defensive options, he gets pressured quite easily, something Meta Knight is very efficient at accomplishing.

If Meta Knight also chooses to camp because of this, Yoshi can egg camp back. That's about it.

I'd definitely say, because of the overall, inherent disadvantage Yoshi faces, it's a lot more severe than 60:40.

GR shenanigans? I think you mean DR shenanigans. [Dragonic Reverse.]

 

[Judo777]

I see all these posts...

and only Burntsockz and Polt's posts says anything

Every other post has a whole lotta nothing

Really? I didn't say anything? I guess im doin it wrong.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Really? I didn't say anything? I guess im doin it wrong.

I didn't see your post

and I was mainly talking bout Marik's and Firefly's pointless argument.



edit: I just read you're post, and it was informative. I agree with what you wrote for the most part.

 

[.Marik]

I didn't see your post

and I was mainly talking bout Marik's and Firefly's pointless argument.

If you actually looked at what I posted, it's not really "pointless" but just refutes an argument.

 

[indigestible_wad]

Lastly everyone, everyone gets ***** by MK offstage. The only people that don't get ***** by MK offstage all have 1 thing in common. Btw i am referring to snake, and wario and maybe jiggs. They have the ability to completely avoid MK in the air entirely. Snake just by the way his recovery works and wario through his insane aerial speed and multiple jumps same with jiggs. Yoshi has a few options here also. 1 if yoshi can recvoer high MK should never be able to hit u ur air speed is just too high and ur b reversals allow you to do what snake does only way better. If u can recover high at least u have something that not even wario gets. You have the ability to lob projectiles to help cover ur jump and u have heavy armor on ur double jump. Wario has to jump and try to outspace or use his airdodge while moving to get past MK while ur airdodge moves farther and u have heavy armor before that.

Lightbulb. I have never considered b-sticking to get past meta knights offstage ****. The mindset behind recovering is to always move toward the edge. Granted, you weave past the person, but you're always going in the left or right direction. B-sticking backwards would be an excellent mindgame against shuttle loop or other stuff, but mostly shuttle loop. Yoshi's super armor is not as amazing as people think against meta knight's offstage game.

Yoshi certainly does have options. He has the chaingrab, which is increasingly effective due to his huge grab range. He has a very malleable recovery. His super armor goes through tornado, which basically makes tornado a fifty/fifty shot for them. That's something a lot of the cast would kill for. Tornado can also be egged, and can be hit by a few of our attacks in the early frames, and be grabbed if the tornado is near the ground. Our projectile forces him to us, although I don't know if that's a bad or a good thing. Nobody should disagree that we don't have tools for meta knight.

But then let's see meta knights options. Disjointed hitboxes. Speed. Shuttle loop. I don't think it needs any explanation, but shuttle loop has aproximately 2/3 the height of our second jump, eh give or take. If we are near the same level meta knight is in the sky when we're recovering, that's essentially a stock. We have nothing on shuttle loop, unless we're right above him with dair, which probably shouldn't be attempted. We can dodge I guess. Even with our options against tornado, it can still go through most of what we've got, and a lot of the time they will hang in the air to not get grabbed, hit our shield for a while, then float away so we won't hit them when they fall, or auto cancel it, since our oos options are bad. Dair. Dair camping is stupid. Fair. Fair can outrange anything we have in the air I think, but if it hits our attack anyway, we're the ones getting the damage. All they have to do is run up and fair you and you can shield. On occasion though you can upsmash them through this if they're high enough. Downsmash is fast. Fsmash is fast. Other stuff.

Meta knight has more on us. I don't even have to say imo. It's just kind of obvious.

 

[Deleted member]

Getting gimped by shuttle loop is quite annoying, but airdodging and DIing towards the stage basically will get u back. MK has no aerial mobility, and yoshi has a lot, so hes gonna have a hard time gimping u with it unless he gets u at the tip, in which case u didnt dodge. If u dodge and DI towards him, he probably wont be getting u with the tip (assuming he reads the dodge anyways).

Fair is the least of yoshis worries, pivot grab and usmash both beat it. Empty short hops to bait it and then a pivot or running grab are good counters to MK that like to use fair.

MKs nado is the only reason yoshi loses the matchup nearly as badly as he does. The reason is that MK cant really punish commitments all that well unless you are really obvious. Nado basically gives MK a long range punish for trying to bait or space most moves. It punishes very well, putting yoshi in the worst possible place, above MK. Without it, yoshi would still lose, but he could safetly space and try to bait stuff without having to worry about a move that beats everything except for upsmash and falling nair.

 

[indigestible_wad]

I agree with all your points, I just didn't discuss them in my post.

If nado is that bad for us, why don't we start using the super armor stuff that everyone was talking about seven pages ago?

 

[Deleted member]

Because MK shouldnt be nadoing in any situations where yoshi has time to double jump. Like i said, its only a punisher against yoshi, but its so amazing at punishing. I think rising nair through nado if he is nadoing back airs might work, though i havent really done that much.
Im not a fan of abusing super armor that much unless its like some guaranteed stuff. Generally a risk i dont wanna take, especially against a character like MK.

Implementing empty foxtrots is a good way to keep MK guessing, while not commiting to anything that gets punished by nado.
>.>

 

[Sunnysunny]

I really don't think this is a 35/65. Its bad but not horribly bad. I mean are air mobility lets us completely avoid metaknight off stage. We also have that choke chain grab on him. If we play really defensivly with our eggs and U-smashes i'd say its like 40/60

 

[OverLade]

Poltergust is better than you guys....just sayin.

 

[Shiri]

Hopefully we don't have to go through this again.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Halzy trollin us again....