YGD - As the snow melts, the mighty Dinosaur rises once more!

[Z'zgashi]

If I had a quarter for everytime I was beaten in tourney by an MK i'd probably have enough money for smash 4 by now.

Id have enough to buy Nintendo.

 

[Scatz]

Realize that very few people can use DR as efficiently as I have. It's always a dream to take the best parts of top Yoshis and put them together, but the realization where we have to work (in a sense) twice as hard to kill hurts us in tons of matchups that come to last minute hits. .

 

[Nikes]

Working twice as hard for anything isn't news to any Yoshi main, that's just how life is for him. Since we don't really have all that many kill setups we've just gotta be a bit more creative, but isn't being creative part of what Yoshi's all about?
Using our momentum to play trickzies around our opponent and not getting hit will give you the kill opportunity before long, it just sucks as some others have said how other characters can close up our lead in little time while we're trying to get a stock.

And Scatz, your avi's adorableness level is off the charts.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Lol.
All players start out wanting to make some hybrid playstyle of all the best aspects of there favorite top players. Then, without realizing it end up coming up with there own unique style when they DO start making a name for themselves. In the end, we all do what we're comfortable with, perfect it, then make it our own.

 

[Scatz]

It matters in the long run. The amount of mental pressure we have while playing (not as much as Shiek) becomes detrimental on our game play as the intensity increases near the end of a set/game.

And thanks lol.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I'd die if there's a Raichu costume in smash 4. Ahhhh~ <3

 

[Delta-cod]

Working twice as hard for anything isn't news to any Yoshi main, that's just how life is for him. Since we don't really have all that many kill setups we've just gotta be a bit more creative, but isn't being creative part of what Yoshi's all about?
Using our momentum to play trickzies around our opponent and not getting hit will give you the kill opportunity before long, it just sucks as some others have said how other characters can close up our lead in little time while we're trying to get a stock.

You can only work twice as hard for so long in a tournament before you can't do it anymore. And tricking people doesn't work forever either. You can try to bait Snake into a million different things. Then he hits you with utilt. GGs.

Yoshi as a character can't handle last hit/last stock situations. The amount of safety he has while applying pressure and baiting the opponent just isn't large enough.

 

[RaptorTEC]

I'll admit in most last stock last hit situations we will most likely lose the match due to our shield (on top of the fact that this is the time when both players play super careful). We have to win before we get into kill percent so it's not stressful for us lol.

 

[CourageHound]

Man...the things I'd do to have a hybrid Yoshi of all the best qualities of every Yoshi

I tend to be somewhat clutch in last hit situations but often times i feel somewhat awkward at high percents. Other times I just tend to choke...it's something I need to get over.

 

[Scatz]

Just the shield alone? It's a combination of lack of reliable approach in a defensive based game, lack of safe kill move that lacks having a hard read (Usmash is the closest to fulfill this), and the lack of utilizing his shield as efficiently as the rest of the cast.

I'm fairly sure people wouldn't know what to do with the DR skills I cultivated over the 3 years the move was discovered lol. I had almost a 95% efficiency when I was playing consistently. Too bad it was useless against certain matchups.

 

[Delta-cod]

Well Scatz, the shield is a huge thing. Not being able to do things like PS > Usmash, PS > Down B, etc, really sucks. Especially when characters can do things like PS > Shuttle Loop, PS > Utilt, or even just normal shield and do that. It's so baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

 

[Scatz]

Let's just say we got parrying, but still have our regular shield. How do you think that'd pan out for us?

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm not too sure on the details of parrying, but it would help a little. I believe parrying is still risky though, so while it's a nice thing to have, it wouldn't really be applicable to most of our struggles.

 

[Sunnysunny]

He should legit just have a normal shield and he'd be infinity better. Ha.

Also, I never liked the idea of "trying twice as hard and you'll win." Sense, it's not like other characters arn't capable of trying twice as hard to win. Everyones playing at there peek in tournament at all times.

 

[Karaoke Man]

I mean, you can say the MU isn't bad in general, and I don't think it is for the most part. But then you get to the part that matters, those first stocks that you need to take to give you momentum and a real lead, and then you realize there's no safe way to kill Snake, and all your safe options don't lead to kills, and that if you mess up ONE read you die, or your 50% lead is gone, and the MU sucks. Because when you do mess up and lose that lead, you still have to kill Snake, except each mistake is now putting you 1/5th of the way to your next death, and you need to work it all back.

We have the tools to deal with Snake, but our margin of error is so abysmally small that the MU just becomes that much harder. The amount of times I've lost last stock last hit to Snake just because he has so many more tools to finish out that situation is unreal.

That's the thing though:

There's absolutely no safe way to kill anyone. A lot of kills don't always come from being safe. They come from being Bold.

With that being said, Nikes pretty much said what I was going to say:
It's not a surprise anymore that our character is limited in a lot of ways, but that doesn't mean he can't pull through like a lot of other characters can. It all comes down to the way you're playing. Of course, there's more than one way to win. Also, I'm more than will to bet that Snake is overwhelmingly hard when he's on the ground. That's honestly the only time he becomes like "Nintendo hard", but Yoshi has ways to pop him off the ground.

Using the earlier example of Raptor; You literally need to spam Egg Lay. If you're pressuring him in the way I mentioned earlier, it is almost impossible for Snake to avoid.
Once you get rewarded from those baits, you have to follow up as much as you possibly can. The one thing you want to avoid is letting him have a picnic on the ground. Following up includes punishing/grabbing him out of all of his landings. You don't want to let him breathe even for a second. Zeton's set with UltimateRazor at last year's Apex is a good example of what I mean. One thing you'll know is that any lead that you lose, will be made up from those same followup, very...very easily.

Realize that very few people can use DR as efficiently as I have. It's always a dream to take the best parts of top Yoshis and put them together, but the realization where we have to work (in a sense) twice as hard to kill hurts us in tons of matchups that come to last minute hits. .

One thing that stood out to me here is:

Last Minute Hits

I know you're being more figurative in this, but if it's the last minute of the game why are you expressively trying to get in that last minute hit? It's true that you'll likely need that hit to finish it off, but there is one thing you guys aren't seeing, but it'll put it this way:

Majority of games played by a Sonic player, isn't going to involved them charging at you like the Juggernaut. In fact, they probably aren't going to come to you at all. Because they know they will get punished for doing it because of the limits of the character. Another thing to note is that most games with Sonic almost always go to time and most of those games they are successful. I guarantee that Delta probably understands this concept in a more....Defensive way I guess you can say.

If they can't realibly approach, or be aggressive, how do they still score hits if they don't have any safe options to kill with you ask? Here it is:

The goal isn't to work to get the kill. That alone will likely get you killed. The real goal is: Getting them to **** up and half the time....They do. THAT'S when you'll get all the hits you'll ever need.Yoshi is doing the exact same thing as Sonic in his own way. Camping alone won't beat any good Snake, but neither will mindless aggression; Whether you're Sonic, Yoshi, Bowser or whomever, baiting is your absolute best friend this game or in any fighting game. This applies to fighting just about any character as well. With all that being said, there's the one thing in this MU to keep in mind.

Aside from C4, Snake can't bait people from the air or offstage. He doesn't have the options. This is where all those years of pilot school pays off for Yoshi. Snake may live forever, but absolutely nobody lives from getting spiked or even gimped as long as it's at a reasonable percentage. As long as you don't get footstooled, you're good.

Oh yeah and Scatz, I didn't mean that everyone should use DR to your extent necessariy, but the same application of it should definitely be utilized. As of course, it opens up far more options for the character when used at the right times. It's definitely a strong key to unlocking Yoshi full potential as a character.

 

[Depster]

Super Theorycraft Bros., LET'S GO!!!

 

[CourageHound]

In the same pool I had an Olimar I struggled and lost to. I had no idea how to fight him since he's like the first real Olimar i've fought. Halp plz?

Oh and what are some mixups or baits you guys like to use? I've been told I need to be less straightforward.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Guys.
Brawl is almost dead. The nail in the coffin 4 SHORE!
Is MLG ending. Cause brawl started slowing down to a crawl after MLG in 2010.

Just wait till Smash 4 to get back to theorycrafting again, cause MLG ending in prolly November like it did 4 years ago.

 

[Scatz]

You make it seem like that part of my sentence was a correlation to 2D fighting games. What I mean by last minute hits is where both characters are in kill percents (the beginning part). Those last hits can decide whether you win or lose depending on the severity of your mistake. Now, when we take into account information that's been gathered over the past years on characters, moves like MK's D-tilt, Snakes F-tilt & U-tilt, and other moves that have deceptively big hitboxes with oddly quick cooldowns have inherent advantages over us BECAUSE of our shield. Against other characters, OoS aerials come into play, but we have to outright dodge the move first then attack. If we try to keep them from even attacking, then we're just like most other characters, but with a problem that a handful of slow characters possess; the inability to use a quick kill move that covers directly ahead of us. While we can bait our opponent into making a mistake as much as we'd like, we also have to realize that we're limited to certain kill moves because of some other issue with them (long CDs, slow start up, etc.). This now reduces our chances from a safer option to an situation where our kill options will get us killed. Usmash was the main outlier from causing this cause the knockback, CD, and hitbox movement made a difference when opponents were deciding to retaliate with a kill move of their own or backing off for another chance.

While you're right that there's no safe way to kill anyone, there's no denying that there's a difference in difficulty of a character's ability to kill.

 

[Delta-cod]

But MX, what happens when we're behind in percent?

 

[Scatz]

Guys.
Brawl is almost dead. The nail in the coffin 4 SHORE!
Is MLG ending. Cause brawl started slowing down to a crawl after MLG in 2010.

Just wait till Smash 4 to get back to theorycrafting again, cause MLG ending in prolly November like it did 4 years ago.

Eh, I rather would let this debate continue. It's fun having something to talk about in here since most of us are too busy to play or are bored with the game. At least theory crafting into smash 4 would let us have some types of fun, expectations, etc.

 

[Nikes]

I'm with Scatz here, anything to keep these boards alive
Even though Brawls "dying" I still love playing this game, and we're not gonna have Smash 4 for a while-may as well embrace Brawl while people still play it.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Slush, if you don't have anything productive to say don't hit the post button. As much as people keep saying the game has been dying for years the numbers at nationals have been getting bigger every time with the exception of Apex 2012

 

[Sinister Slush]

Raptor just cause your scene over in NY/NJ is active doesn't mean everyone else's is active lololol.
Like... what Nationals are there that matter not named APEX (which most of the time is a disappointment to people that go and mostly negative things said about it, anybody not Top players that get the money).

SKTAR series and WHOBO all I know.
SKTAR big cause top players from everywhere going there to get pot money along with pot fillers makes it big and the fact a lot of top players live there or nearby.

WHOBO hasn't been as big since WHOBO 2 or 3. And upon just clicking any random tournaments in Tournament Results that had PM Melee and Brawl or Brawl and the other. Brawl didn't have the most entrants.

People are moving on for a reason, brawl is becoming tiring samey and dumb (at least more cause of the Meta of META knight and Ice climbers with a side of banana milkshake and Marfa). Hell, even I moved on to P:M kinda over Brawl when I bash how bad the mod of Brawl is.
Only reason SA is even gonna touch brawl now is cause of Xyro hosting a WHOBO MLG series then we're done for good cause by May Smash 4 will prolly have a date set for release.

 

[Scatz]

Raptor, you just suck. Don't be all Mortons.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Think it's even worse when Brawl players start requesting Brawl TO's to host P:M or even Melee along with brawl.
My first post was both throwing some truth in there and also sarcasm which I thought would've been maybe obvious with the misspelling of For and sure and starting off with Guys instead of posting like a normal person.

There's a reason TX is the state of trolling and trashtalk.

Also why is APEX 2012 not included? It has the most brawl entrants by 64, (dunno about 2014 cause they didn't care enough about brawl to put numbers for it cause Melee had the most entrants from all games, 629) and most in brawl teams.
I think P:M even surpassed brawls numbers at APEX 2014 lol.

 

[Delta-cod]

As I'll say 29438u20983209 times, Project Melee gets the most entrants at multiple game events because it attracts a bunch of people who enter for the hell of it. It's nice that it can attract players from both crowds, but I don't think PM exclusive events are pulling bigger numbers than Brawl exclusive events in active regions.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Or, ya know, people actually like P:M. Though I will admit most of the people who play it are horrid outside of the top players for Melee or Brawl.

 

[Nikes]

PM delivers a richer experience than any other Smash game imo, so it's only to be expected it should get more entrants. Most smashers like PM but I don't think it will take Brawls place anytime soon, no matter how much people try to exclude it.

 

[Delta-cod]

Slush, while there are people that like it and it exclusively, I don't think a PM only scene is stronger than the Brawl scene. Playing a mod of Brawl that caters to Melee, and having it run at events where Brawl and Melee are both at, is a surefire way to inflate its numbers above those of Brawl, because it DOES attract all the dabblers.

 

[CourageHound]

@ Nikes By richer experience you mean a combination of attributes from Melee and Brawl? Yes I suppose.

While I do enjoy and think P:M is a fun game...I just sometimes can't take it seriously. There are plenty of things I see as broken or just straight up whack. From my observation as well, the only people I see winning P:M are melee vets with overwhelming technical ability or people who find, exploit, and abuse some of the many hidden and broken attributes of X character.

I just don't think that most brawl players would find the enjoyment in P:M as melee players or P:M newcomers do in any reasonable amount of time.

 

[Nikes]

By richer I mean like refreshed movesets, everyone's viable, no horrid MUs etc. The whole game feels a lot smoother too.

Still prefer Brawl 100x more though personally.

 

[Sharky]

Did MLG pick us up again? Why would they do a thing like that?

 

[Sunnysunny]

I honestly dislike project m.

Not that it's a bad game.
But merely because it ate up the brawl scene in Colorado. Sense it came around to version 3.0 the amount of brawl entrance have been cut down by half. Granted no one particularly talented is gone, but it is sad to see so many leave. I also miss not fighting a power ranked player every match. Ha!

I also detest it for changing Lucario's playstyle so much. The majority of brawl characters that were converted to PM were given just relatively improved upon playstyles without changing the characters TOO much. But with Lucario, they changed everything. They took a character that could space properly from damn near any range and made him a rush down character whos approaches all get stuffed if you stay at a certain range. A lot of Lucario players are reluctant to play it for this very reason.

blah.

 

[Sinister Slush]

People that mess with Project M playing god with characters when they really shouldn't never goes well for any franchises.
Along with answering Sharky and his question, will say MLG picking up P:M too will hopefully bring out a cease and desist from Nintendo cause
>making money from a mod for their game.

 

[Scatz]

MLG is only supporting the tournament, which is ran by another company. It is not an official MLG tournament(s).

 

[Delta-cod]

Nikes, not everyone is viable in Project Melee. I guarantee you that without rebalancing patches, there will be a sizable number of characters who just won't be able to compete.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Raptor just cause your scene over in NY/NJ is active doesn't mean everyone else's is active lololol.
Like... what Nationals are there that matter not named APEX (which most of the time is a disappointment to people that go and mostly negative things said about it, anybody not Top players that get the money).

SKTAR series and WHOBO all I know.
SKTAR big cause top players from everywhere going there to get pot money along with pot fillers makes it big and the fact a lot of top players live there or nearby.

WHOBO hasn't been as big since WHOBO 2 or 3. And upon just clicking any random tournaments in Tournament Results that had PM Melee and Brawl or Brawl and the other. Brawl didn't have the most entrants.

People are moving on for a reason, brawl is becoming tiring samey and dumb (at least more cause of the Meta of META knight and Ice climbers with a side of banana milkshake and Marfa). Hell, even I moved on to P:M kinda over Brawl when I bash how bad the mod of Brawl is.
Only reason SA is even gonna touch brawl now is cause of Xyro hosting a WHOBO MLG series then we're done for good cause by May Smash 4 will prolly have a date set for release.

Who said I was going by my scene? You said the game has been dying since 2010 meanwhile just by looking at national numbers they have been increasing every time with the exception of Apex 2012. Apex 2013 didn't reach the number 2012 had but in 2014 it increased again. Maybe if it decreased even more this year I could see the argument for this one case, but numbers show that it hasn't been dying. A lot of people might hate the game but the attendance has always been there and is still there. Now is it going to die this year? I think it probably will, especially when Smash 4 comes out, but it's hard to tell with MLG now sponsoring big smash tournaments. There's going to be 7 of those this year and the first one (Shuffle) has already capped (although this is combined not single event).

I do hope once smash 4 comes out it's put into the circuit instead of being MLG sponsored but I think that probably depends on what Nintendo wants to do.

Also I don't think either Brawl or P:M will last once smash 4 comes out as long as it's good. P:M is fun and all but there's too many stupid little things that make it hard for me to take the game seriously. Even with all these patches it feels like the idea of balancing is giving every character something stupid/unnecessary.

 

[Karaoke Man]

If people have continued to play Melee for 12+ years now...
Brawl isn't going to die out just yet.

Yeah, yeah I know. We all think having Meta Knight legal sucks, Ice Climbers' chaingrab sucks, Olimar being in the game sucks, but I guess one thing I should point out is that

We still love the game anyway. Why would we have put so much time into the game getting pooped on by the characters like the one above if we didn't love it?

I mean, really. Players like DLA, KirinBlaze, or even Gashi here plays some of the worst characters in the history of the franchise. You could say they "fill the pot" in a way, I but I've never heard of them switching to an entirely different game because they couldn't win or anything.

Another thing I find funny is that when people say Brawl is bad because of dumb things like CG'ing and stuff, even though they do the exact same thing in Melee and P;M.
Ice Climber's chaingrab is super dumb, but I guess players forget that a lv. 100 JigglyPuff can use Metronome, and use Explosion off random, all in it's sleep from an Uthrow. You can potentially break out of the IC's CG, but with the Melee rest, you're already dead.

Even though Slush is kind of right in a sense saying "there's a reason people are moving on from Brawl", it's still subjective from the player that says it. People aren't all moving for the same reason because some people aren't moving on at all. Whether it's Melee, Brawl, or even P;M

 

[Scatz]

When you really get down to it, most people here are still casuals. If you've understand the mentality that traditional FGCs go through, most of the cheap stuff in smash would barely faze ya.

Pot monsters are people who go to tournaments and can't win. We're all in that category except for Delta's All Brawl win (you still a pot monster tho <3). You'll either realize you're wasting money pushing for a false hope, or do it because you don't really care. Or I guess you could do it because you have some Naruto DNA and believe you'll be the best there ever was lol.

Anyways, no one is going to know what's going to happen to Brawl after SSB4 comes out.