YGD - As the snow melts, the mighty Dinosaur rises once more!

[~Firefly~]

MK can side B offstage as well. :x

 

[Boomer3d]

and up b and neutral b and down b

 

[Yink]

That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that alot of people don't like infinites and want those banned as well.

/ness main lol. I choose to use my character and must take the ENTIRE package. Grab Releases/Infinites and all. It's my problem to deal with when I picked him up. Besides, they WERE banned, and then were re-allowed, and I really haven't seen too many problems.

So if a ban of metaknight does happen, which would be the first character in the smash bros history to be banned, what else would be open up to be potentially banned, such as infinites and chain grabs. What it really comes down to is what is considered an advantage and what is considered cheap.

I don't really understand your logic here. Cheap is never to really be used in a fighting game, that's like saying "spammers are cheap". I don't consider a Fox main spamming his Blaster to be cheap, I consider him to be using his character to his FULLEST abilities, and that while it may seem "cheap", it's a total advantage to use the Blaster to force an approach.

You're gonna play IC mains? Don't get grabbed, pick up a secondary, mash correctly, use platforms to your advatange etc.

 

[Scatz]

Yink ninja'd me before I could even read the post. lol

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

ICs are free.

 

[CT Chia]

What else is opened up to be banned? Things are already banned. IDC is banned. 75m is banned. Items are banned. Who cares if MK is the first character to be banned, it's just another part of the game. Nothing new is opened up, and MK is unlike every other character in the game.

 

[Boomer3d]

eh, I'm newer here so I'm definetly not the best informed....
Point in case, I really don't care if he is banned doesn't really affect me. I'm just trying to throw in all of the point of view others might have.
I mean some people might not want metaknight banned because they spent so much time learning how to play this hard to learn character.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50S5pS0Frbs

 

[Chuee]

Honestly, I don't think MK is broken enough as a character to warrant a ban, however everyone is picking him up as a secondary. Banning him would make things a lot more interesting rather than top non-mk vs top mk in later tourney matches all the time.
meh

 

[Boomer3d]

Honestly, I don't think MK is broken enough as a character to warrant a ban, however everyone is picking him up as a secondary. Banning him would make things a lot more interesting rather than top non-mk vs top mk in later tourney matches all the time.
meh

That's how I feel, I don't like him being completely gone, but, on the other hand, i don't like him spammed to get to the top 8. If there was a middle road I'd take that but that doesn't seem possible.

 

[F-Tier Player]

I'm not trying to be bias and do it for just Yoshi. I'm saying ban him for the community. There is more and more people quitting because of MK solely. If you want to do it just for Yoshi, then go ahead. I'm going for more balance and diversity rather than letting this game sit there and further degrade into MK vs MK in the future. Yet, this has already happened to an extent considering that just about every national this year has been MK vs MK.

Degrade is a biased word.

Please explain how. I already know we have a better MU against MK than other characters do. Also, it still promotes my point. The metagame right now is about how to beat MK and whether you lose/win vs him.

MK is just another hurdle. Nothing more. There are way more other characters that give just as many problems to the cast as MK.

As I said above, I'm not using assumption to make my judgment on whether MK being banned would benefit the community or not. I stated matchups because that's information that's given to us right now. Looking at how it may end up is pointless when you have virtually no information to even back any points you make. You're making the slippery slope argument that stated when MK gets banned, (insert character here) would be near the level of brokenness as MK and would need to get banned. Then after (insert character here) is banned, then someone else would be broken and needs to get banned. The matchup chart negates this claim as we have proof that it's not the same (as I said earlier, the only character to possibly make this an exception is Diddy).

There is a solution out there, and it doesn't have to involve getting rid of a single character. You can handicap that character to make it more "fair", we're only 3 years into the game and you're saying that have enough evidence to support a ban? I think this is more about not wanting to deal with the problem. There are ways to deal with the easy button option, the camping, the gayness, etc. That is not solving it, it is merely ignoring it.

This isn't about just the Yoshi boards and us as Yoshi mains trying to improve our chances at winning. I'm fully aware that more of our actual bad matchups would come and still rock our character.

Ok, then we both agree MK isn't the only worst MU for every character and that banning him will only take a small load off our shoulders.

 

[Yink]

There is a solution out there, and it doesn't have to involve getting rid of a single character. You can handicap that character to make it more "fair", we're only 3 years into the game and you're saying that have enough evidence to support a ban? I think this is more about not wanting to deal with the problem. There are ways to deal with the easy button option, the camping, the gayness, etc. That is not solving it, it is merely ignoring it.

Excuse me? What's the magical solution? Getting rid of more stages perhaps, stages that are otherwise fine without MK on them...more of a LGL, when in fact even at major tournaments the LGL wasn't the problem, it was the time in the air?

You shouldn't have to handicap a character, or even attempt to keep him "balanced" towards the rest of the cast.

I'd say the easy button is actually giving him more character-specific rules, like his own LGL, banning glitches etc. The HARD part is actually following through with a ban. You yourself said it's been 3 years, and this topic has come up many times. If it's so easy, why has it not happened yet?

 

[Delta-cod]

@Delta: We lose because of ourselves. Confidence(self, regardless of character) + Knowledge(basic) + Comfort(tournaments attended) + Stability > MU

No, we lose because MK has 10 broken, safe options at any given time, and we don't. I've played countless players and their assortment of mains. Falcos, Marths, Snakes, DDDs, Diddys, you name it. And I win. But once they switch to MK, I get *****. I wonder why that happens. It's not because I don't know the MK MU. It's not because I'm bad at fighting him. I'd say I'm very good at it. But it doesn't matter how good you are when MK has 9 options to beat every one of yours. You have to play perfectly, and you have to make a godlike read every time you want damage, while MK only has to pick one of his several abusable options for free damage, set ups, and kills.

It doesn't matter how confident, calm, or knowledgeable you are when you're dealing with MK.

@Scatz/Celes: So you're saying that we've come to a dead point and can't advance any character's metagame unless we get rid of MK? True, talented players would not know who to choose at first, but it's when results will begin to look like Top 8 at Apex: 5 Diddys & 3 Snakes or Top 8 at Genesis III: 5 Warios & 3 Falcos, etc that you will probably say that that character is overpowered/overused and this whole ban will have lost its luster.

If results start looking like that, it'll at least be because the players succeeding with those characters have to be amazing at the game and need to outskill their opponents rather than being carried on bat wings by MK.

And several characters' metagames are slowed down because the only thing that's viable to focus on is MK. Looking into anything else is pretty much a waste of time.

Besides, let's thank MK for bringing us this far into the metagame, learning how to play it safely and not recklessly.

Brawl in general would have done that anyways. MK has simply limited that sort of play as the only option. He choked any sort of aggressiveness that other characters could potentially have had.

Let's try and just think about Yoshi and how it will benefit us, not the rest of the cast. We have a slightly decent chance against MK, we have some good stage cps, but because there are so few Yoshi mains that actually want to advance the metagame is hurting what you are regarding as a better fighting chance in the competitive scene. How much more interest will there be in characters below high tier? Sure there will be easier MUs to play in tournaments, but what's really going to change the top players from not choosing an easy-to-learn character and still winning $$? You'll probably get worse headaches over losing to say Snake's tilt spam after you banned MK. I am looking at this as to how it may end up, not really how it will help when examining better countering, and you are also assuming things will end up favoring the rest of the cast too. This is what this whole debate is about: We have to assume things will look better for the community.

Other characters actually have abusable features. MK doesn't. If you lose to Snake's tilt spam, you suck. You can punish them. Snake can be exploited.

There are plenty of us that want to advance the metagame, but we're stuck in a metagame where the only progress is towards fighting MK (or losing to him less badly). There's no reason for us to explore our stage CPs and various other options because MK just shuts them down anyways. We could have some godlike stuff on RC/Brinstar. But it doesn't matter. We'll never CP there, or even get the chance to use those options, because MK exists.

Them late edits:

Also, handicapping MK even more than we already have is NOT the answer. Isn't there a problem when we're adding in all these complicated rules just to make him less broken? It sort of sends the message that he's not fit for competitive play, don't ya think?

AND HI CHIBO! What brings you here? Name searching "Ban MK"? =P

 

[F-Tier Player]

Yink, I'm implying there's a solution because maybe there possibly is. I'm obviously in opposition of the ban because of the major reasons people want MK off the legal character's list. The arguments about his gayness sounds like venting/rage to me and it needs to stop. It won't however because of the overwhelming evidence supporting the claim such as results and MU info, etc.

The LGL was a way to go and for some tournaments here in TX, there is another rule about gliding underneath stages a limited number of times.

Find what you can to argue against me, but I'm stopping here. This debate probably doesn't even belong in here. I don't want to become some sort of nuisance for the boards here and annoy everyone. Thanks for your attention.

 

[Yink]

Yink, I'm implying there's a solution because maybe there possibly is. I'm obviously in opposition of the ban because of the major reasons people want MK off the legal character's list. The arguments about his gayness sounds like venting/rage to me and it needs to stop. It won't however because of the overwhelming evidence supporting the claim such as results and MU info, etc.

The LGL was a way to go and for some tournaments here in TX, there is another rule about gliding underneath stages a limited number of times.

Find what you can to argue against me, but I'm stopping here. This debate probably doesn't even belong in here. I don't want to become some sort of nuisance for the boards here and annoy everyone. Thanks for your attention.

It's whatever dude, you can do whatever you want around here as long as you keep it totally civil (as you can see, the Yoshi mains are partaking in the discussion anyway) and as the co-mod I don't see anything out of place or flame-y.

Evidence is pretty much everything though, like you said. Let's just see how the community handles it.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I'll just beat all the MKs for you guys. No big deal.

 

[Depster]

I'm not sure that Alejandro understands that we want him banned based on the whole community and not just for Yoshi. I know it's been said and that he's responded, but it doesn't seem like he truly understands out train of thought on that.

Also, I think a lot of people don't even understand out the boards work/should work. People act like SWF, the BBR, and the BBR-RC rule over us. In reality, they have to (or at least should) make decisions based on what the community wants or at least will accept. If the community wants MK banned, then that's that lol, no amount of what one or two people say will change the fact that Smash could still be played without the boards. The BBR-RC for instance seems like it's trying to rule over the community, but it has no real power, and there are tournaments all the time that don't run those rules. People do what the BBR-RC says though because what they say makes sense and many people see its logic. But now, both the data and the community agree on something, and I rambled, not even staying on topic with myself. Justwakingupfromanap johns.

Regardless, it still makes some sense, but I'm having troubles keeping my train of thought.

 

[Scatz]

Degrade is a biased word.

Is it really a biased word when you can take the information from 2009 to 2011? I've said it before, I'm not using anything within bias.

MK is just another hurdle. Nothing more. There are way more other characters that give just as many problems to the cast as MK.

Explain this without delving into low tiers. Those characters have multiple problems regardless. This is reflecting high and mid tiers (even a few top tiers). MK creates problems in the sense Sagat causes problems back in Street Fighter.

There is a solution out there, and it doesn't have to involve getting rid of a single character. You can handicap that character to make it more "fair", we're only 3 years into the game and you're saying that have enough evidence to support a ban?

We've handicapped the character throughout the three years already. Also, random people have been posting about rules that bring up insane ideas just to keep him "fair". I've seen threads that involve an air time rule, some that involves rules where MK loses if he's timed out (forcing him to approach), and other wild ideas. Let's bring up the handicaps we have on MK now:

• He has a lower LGL than the entire cast (which barely affects him to any degree)
• He has a ban on his one completely broken move that leaves him invincible and invincible (IDC)

I haven't looked back at any recent rulesets to pull out what rules are directed to MK, but as you can see, we've already placed handicaps on him to make him "fair".

3 years is enough for this particular reason because of the information given.

• He's won more than 50% of tournament money to date.
• MK takes about an average of 4 placings out of top 8.
• It's agreed that he's extremely dominant in doubles to the point where you have to have an MK partner to have a chance.
• There's extremely more pocket MKs these days or MK mains because he's the best way to go now. More tourneys are popping up with an extreme amount of MKs taking top 8.

We have this, and it's still expanding each month.

I think this is more about not wanting to deal with the problem. There are ways to deal with the easy button option, the camping, the gayness, etc. That is not solving it, it is merely ignoring it.

This is completely untrue. Back when this entire discussion started, we were told by anti-ban people to wait it out for (insert major tournament here) each year. We were told that we should wait and let MK be more dominant before making decisions. We've dealt with the problem from 2009 to today. I'm pretty sure we've attempted to deal with MK in hopes of having better chances vs MK (and that's not just directed to Yoshi).

Ok, then we both agree MK isn't the only worst MU for every character and that banning him will only take a small load off our shoulders.

I've said that from the every beginning. It's not about Yoshi. I'm fully aware that we'll be playing against our real bad matchups much more than just playing against MK. I'm not making any excuses about them because they're not anywhere close to the level MK does.

Also, you're not being a nuisance. It's debating and that's how it goes. I'm just extremely adamant about this subject because people have danced around this discussion since 2009 without bringing a straight answer. Compared to the MK ban thread that happened back in 2009, this is extremely better considering this isn't being blown out of proportion. The only thing that's slightly annoying me is that you're saying he's not broken because we're refusing to deal with the problem. While mentioning that, you've only brought solutions that almost everyone else have done (aka handicaps). When is it enough?

I'll just beat all the MKs for you guys. No big deal.

At this point, I don't think you beating MKs would even make me happier. I just want him gone. It's not enjoyable anymore.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Let's try and just think about Yoshi and how it will benefit us, not the rest of the cast. We have a slightly decent chance against MK, we have some good stage cps, but because there are so few Yoshi mains that actually want to advance the metagame is hurting what you are regarding as a better fighting chance in the competitive scene. How much more interest will there be in characters below high tier? Sure there will be easier MUs to play in tournaments, but what's really going to change the top players from not choosing an easy-to-learn character and still winning $$? You'll probably get worse headaches over losing to say Snake's tilt spam after you banned MK. I am looking at this as to how it may end up, not really how it will help when examining better countering, and you are also assuming things will end up favoring the rest of the cast too. This is what this whole debate is about: We have to assume things will look better for the community.

I don't think any of us here want the ban for Yoshi. It probably will benefit us in the end but that isn't the point. We seem to have a good MK matchup, but really its over hyped. We just do better than others and its still no where close to even.

Who cares if the interest in characters doesn't dip below High tier? Most people will just go back to their old main, who they dropped because they needed a MK to stay relevant. After MK, there is ALOT of effort needed to be put into any given character to be good. I'm not saying MK mains don't put work into their characters, but lets be real here, Name 1 character who is easier to learn and be good with than MK.

@Scatz/Celes: So you're saying that we've come to a dead point and can't advance any character's metagame unless we get rid of MK? True, talented players would not know who to choose at first, but it's when results will begin to look like Top 8 at Apex: 5 Diddys & 3 Snakes or Top 8 at Genesis III: 5 Warios & 3 Falcos, etc that you will probably say that that character is overpowered/overused and this whole ban will have lost its luster.

Besides, let's thank MK for bringing us this far into the metagame, learning how to play it safely and not recklessly.

The results will be more varied than that, Top players would probably be on that Ally swag with like 5 mains. I will never see any of those characters to be too overpowered (possibly over used) unless their character some how gains a few extra jumps, gets alot faster, starts wearing a mask and maybe finds a gold meat cleaver around.

For me I personally think that metaknight should not be banned, but I do think some sort of restriction should be put into it. One thing that I know I would be happy with is if each person could only use metaknight only 1 game out of 3 or 2 out of 5. That way, a person has to win at least one match with a evener character. This would allow metaknight to be played, but not overused as much.

My problem with banning metaknight is he is programmed in the game. It's that same reason why I don't complain about ice climbers. I just don't like the idea of banning a character.

From a yoshi standpoint, I'm pretty comfy with the MU, depending on the stage of course, so I'm fine whatever the final vote is. There are definetly harder MU then metaknight ( such as Lucario) so banning him won't really make it any easier or harder for me.

If you have to limit the use of a character to like once a week or something dumb like that you'll be better off with a ban.

That's not what I'm saying. What I am saying is that alot of people don't like infinites and want those banned as well. So if a ban of metaknight does happen, which would be the first character in the smash bros history to be banned, what else would be open up to be potentially banned, such as infinites and chain grabs. What it really comes down to is what is considered an advantage and what is considered cheap.

A good rule of thumb for banning metakinght would be comparing metaknight to akuma in super street fighter 2 turbo. http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/200...er-2-turbo-hd-remix-tiers-character-rankings/

IC's are free, and infinite banned tournies aren't exactly rare. I don't see your point. Also smash isn't a traditional fighter and shouldn't really be compared to them.

Degrade
MK is just another hurdle. Nothing more. There are way more other characters that give just as many problems to the cast as MK.

Who O_o

There is a solution out there, and it doesn't have to involve getting rid of a single character. You can handicap that character to make it more "fair", we're only 3 years into the game and you're saying that have enough evidence to support a ban? I think this is more about not wanting to deal with the problem. There are ways to deal with the easy button option, the camping, the gayness, etc. That is not solving it, it is merely ignoring it.

I'd love to see your magical solution to making MK fair. Add more stages? He's still better than you there. Get rid of some? Same issue. Add more limits to him? Seriously anything beyond what we already have on him would be punishing the player for playing the game. I mean honestly if you have to add a bunch of surgical nerfs to make a character fair in the first place he obviously isn't.

Ok, then we both agree MK isn't the only worst MU for every character and that banning him will only take a small load off our shoulders.

One small step for Yoshi one giant leap for brawl? People have said it already, we don't want him banned for Yoshi only.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

At this point, I don't think you beating MKs would even make me happier. I just want him gone. It's not enjoyable anymore.

I just posted hoping someone would read and reply to my post.

I feel invisible when I come here now.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Why does yoshi beat yoshi so bad?

 

[CT Chia]

AND HI CHIBO! What brings you here? Name searching "Ban MK"? =P

Nope, just being friendly

 

[Silent Beast]

If you want to ban MK from a purely gameplay standpoint (i.e. he has too many options that are too good, how campy he can play, how he plays on CPs, etc.), I'm not going to argue that, both because I can see the argument and because I'm not smart enough to come up with counterarguments. I will, however, respond to the more statistical arguments (and a few other random thoughts):

3 years is enough for this particular reason because of the information given.

• He's won more than 50% of tournament money to date.
• MK takes about an average of 4 placings out of top 8.

That honestly seems appropriate to me for the best character in the game. There's no reason to expect any sort of even distribution in tournament winnings. I'm not trying to say that you think that MK should only have 1/37 of the winnings, because no one here is that stupid, but I'd think that in any fighter, you'd only have a handful of viable characters. Even out of those viable characters, a lot of them would only be viable on a fringe level (one main here and there that is a threat to win money at a large tourney), leaving you with only a few characters that have a reasonable shot at winning a national-level tourney. Of those few characters, it makes sense for the best of them, especially, if he doesn't lose any of the matchups against the other members of the few, to win most often. I don't see any problem with the two stats you gave above.

• It's agreed that he's extremely dominant in doubles to the point where you have to have an MK partner to have a chance.

I don't remember seeing any sort of tourney-based doubles ranking (I think someone did try a couple years ago or so), but yeah, I can see your point when it comes to doubles.

• There's extremely more pocket MKs these days or MK mains because he's the best way to go now. More tourneys are popping up with an extreme amount of MKs taking top 8.

Similarly to the first part of my response, I don't really think the number of MKs is a problem.

Who cares if the interest in characters doesn't dip below High tier?

Agreed. A disproportionately high number of people will always play the best few characters in the game. There's nothing wrong with that.

Top players would probably be on that Ally swag with like 5 mains.

Eh, I think most top players would still use only 1 or 2 characters. Wouldn't you say most of the current top non-MK mains don't use more than a couple characters? In the event of a ban, I think most of the top MK mains would generally stick with a character or two.

Also smash isn't a traditional fighter and shouldn't really be compared to them.

I don't think this argument works if you're going to use any sort of statistical evidence from tourneys to fight for a ban. Remember how I said before that MK winning over 50% of tourney money and averaging 4 out of the top 8 spots in tourney didn't seem like too much to me? Realistically, my statement doesn't have any more merit than someone who thinks that those same stats are proof that MK is too dominant because there's really no context for those stats.

What would be better evidence for my (or the other person's) point of view would be to compare MK's tourney results to the tourney results from other best characters in other games. If we see that MK's tourney results are consistent with other non-banned characters in other games, then we can conclude that there is probably nothing wrong with how often MK wins. If MK's winnings are significantly higher than other best characters, or if they're consistent with the placing of other banned characters (before they were banned, obviously), then we can conclude that the tourney data probably suggests that MK should be banned. Unfortunately, as far as I know, other games don't have a comprehensive tournament character ranking system like the one for Brawl.

 

[Scatz]

I'm not sure if my information is completely correct, but he wins almost 3 times more money than the rest of top tier combined. I'm going for more diversity rather than MK vs MK/amazingly godlike player. The money doesn't have to be evenly distributed (it wasn't what I was implying), but getting close to it shows that there's more diversity and other metagames that are being used with success.

 

[Atomic Yoshi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEJpoH-wwh0.

 

[Mr. game and watch]

Let's just plae teh gaem and fogit about it.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEJpoH-wwh0.

Who cares, its just Steam losing to a Lucas....wait

-watches-

LOL GET *****

 

[Yink]

Celes I love your avatar.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Oh the feeling is very mutual.

 

[Boomer3d]

Btw for people who want metaknight banned, you might want to look at this tourney here

 

[NinjaFoxX]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Joyf8KKdg4&feature=feedu

so what frame is Yoshi's dair on?

 

[Scatz]

Starts Frame 15.

 

[Delta-cod]

Dair would be a bad idea anyways due to SDI-ability.

And putting us at the blastzone.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Our best option would be timing a Nair, and honestly, if we miss that's our stock. So yeah. Imma stick to throwing eggs at this because Uair planking never really scared me.

 

[Z'zgashi]

We cant even do that, our sheild drop is 13 frames lol.

Oh wait, nevermind, I just watched the vid, he rolled, scratch that.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

17 frames <3, and assuming you were serious, when we get pushed off the ledge, like we would with this, it doesn't matter anyway.

Saw that edit, he didn't roll, Sheild DI iirc

 

[Z'zgashi]

oh, well, im ******** then. K

 

[Sinister Slush]

...13 Frames?
Also I do this alot in most of my matches, never tried it Vs MK though cause... Why bother?
And I never go for Dair I use Bair/Nair most of the time. Dair is SDI'able and the fact we could accidently fastfall while doing it which could take an entire stock off.

 

[Scatz]

You'd most likely need to fastfall Dair just to hit him. We don't have anything that's worth it.

 

[Z'zgashi]

@Slush: I dont know where i got 13, i meant 17, i just mistyped i guess.

@Scatz: Bair > possible stagespiked uair maybe? Lol, iunno, just trying to be creative here

 

[Scatz]

Depends on the position. As you could see, we're above MK when he Uair's us off the stage. So, Bair or Uair might not work without having to fast fall, which would only be useful at high percents to keep us from being gimped.