X or Y? - PT Social

[Bomber7]

> !

> Wtf?

I believe they don't have good mid/low tier mains :/

Either that or we are just stupid because Japan > the world

 

[Rizen]

Every nationality has done enough to secure they're at least as stupid as everyone else with the possible exceptions of Tibet, Canada and a few nowhere islands no one cares about.
(/jk)

 

[Célja]

Man I really need to get some of my friendlies up on the internet, my PT needs some critique x.x

It's been forever since I've been on these PT boards and I notice we changed the french title for the thread. In other news (and I know this is actually a while away from now) but I'm fully planned on taking my PT to Apex when it comes next year. I'm hyped because this will be my first national and the first tourney I'll be going to out of state.

In my match up/friendly news:
I'm starting to think that imo the PT vs Yoshi match up isn't completely impossible. From my experience, Ivysaur is probably the best option to start since she's so good at racking up damage on Yoshi. Squirtle however needs to be out as little as possible (which I am unused to). I have found out a small trick that with the right timing, Charizard can actually dash under a low far thrown egg toss, and punish him with a grab (timing is difficult though)

Outside of that, the match up is still stupid hard

In related news to nothing, I have found little tiny figures of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard that can fit in the three pokeballs I have which now means I have swag.

Or should I say TM 87?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think Squirtle does the best overall, but it requires you to be able to mash out of grabs like a madman.

Also, the matchup isn't that hard, IMO.

 

[T-block]

Yeah the Japanese have had PT hella low for a looong time.

Where can we read this paper, Reflex? =P

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It was for the Project M Back Room--They wanted to know some of my thoughts on potential changes on the transition from Brawl to P:M.

It's not that interesting--I only got into a few moves, because I'm long-winded when explaining things, and they wanted it in 1000 words or fewer.

 

[T-block]

Oh I see - that's pretty cool. If it's not confidential, I'm sure most of us would be interested in giving it a read though.

 

[Bomber7]

I still don't think Ivy is as good of a choice as Squirtle. Sure, you can try to out spam yoshi with razor leaf but try anything up close and Yoshi can go for a second jump (I forget what yoshi players call it), but they take advantage of the second jump's super armor and counter your attack. Though that's if they really want to camp with that. I don't have much yoshi experience unless it's against my friend in Smash 64, so I can only say so much.

 

[Myollnir]

Lol have you ever heard of karamity??

He plays Fox most of the time, no?

Also, I can't mash out of grabs quickly.

 

[Karnu]

Guys, got a tournament on the 25th of August.

Going straight Lucario but I get to test PT offline! Can't wait to see how he goes, well I got a MM so I will use PT for that

 

[Myollnir]

Haha GL! Got a big tournament on the 25th too (Bushido Brawl Impact 2)

 

[Karnu]

Haha Well it would be the 26th for me Because AUS is like almost a full day ahead of the USA and Europe.

Would you guys like me to try and get a recorded match?

 

[Rizen]

^Wow, can you look up the USA's winning lotto #s for your yesterday and PM them to me? I'll give you half
Lol, good luck everyone.

 

[Myollnir]

Haha Well it would be the 26th for me Because AUS is like almost a full day ahead of the USA and Europe.

Would you guys like me to try and get a recorded match?

Yes!

@Rizen :

 

[Bomber7]

We need more recordings. The video archive has collected so much dust.

 

[CoonTail]

Ugh I know itt's been soo long since I have done anything, with Vinnie in Japan I haven't had much of a chance to play .

 

[Bomber7]

Well, my SD cards came today, so I've been able to put a replay hack on it. I don't have a dazzle but I know people who I can borrow one from and post videos more often. Even if some of the vids are friendlies.

 

[Bomber7]

Man, so much BS in this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU4tFVffAhw&feature=g-u-u

 

[Myollnir]

Agreed. So much Bullet Seed in this vid.

 

[Bomber7]

Agreed. So much Bullet Seed in this vid.

should have put inb4bulletseedjokes. I just didn't think people would be so low as to say something like that.

 

[Myollnir]

I am! lololol

inb4ivyislow

 

[Bomber7]

inaftertheinb4s.

 

[Rizen]

inpresentlywith'anydecentplayercanmakecobmoslookgoodvsscrubs'

 

[NickRiddle]

Nice space bar, bro.

 

[Rizen]

^nonconformist, if you don't like it then leave the country.

 

[Bomber7]

^The best advice you could ever give someone.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Unfortunately, I was limited to 1000 words (the bit I sent didn't explain the similarties between Squirtle and most Melee characters, too), so it was just a small portion of what I felt could be said.

Squirtle is probably the most "Melee" character in Brawl--The character has many traits that are shared by a good deal of the Melee cast, and comes closer to matching others than most other Brawl characters.

For instance, stringing together moves in simple, effective combos is a staple of Squirtle's game. U-Tilt and U-Air combo into themselves, each other, and high-knockback moves like F-Air until high percents. Many aerials and F-Tilt combo into Jab until middling percents. Fatigue, while being a huge pain for the character overall, allows the aforementioned combos to work until higher percents, making it slightly beneficial in some ways.

Squirtle has a relatively straightforward, mediocre recovery that is par for the course when comparing it to Melee recoveries. The angle of the Up-B can be changed slightly, but it doesn't take a great read to stuff it if the opponent is in the right position. Solid distance and potential mix-up with Forward-B, but, nothing that a smart player can't reliably deal with.

Squirtle is all about frame traps in general; U-Air's IASA frames start at frame 25, which gives him more than enough time to react to and punish a Brawl airdodge, which usually takes 39 or 49 frames to complete, depending on the character. A frame 1 Jab gives him many opportunities to stuff opponents attempting to get something started. Most of his aerials have only a small amount of cooldown upon landing during the animation, which limits the opponent's potential options, both offensively and defensively, due to Jab's incredible speed. F-Throw at low percents puts the opponent in a bad position where an incorrect guess between a Jump and a Shield makes the opponent eat an aerial or a grab, respectively. U-Tilt can be timed to take away opponents' mid-air jumps, causing a combo to last much longer when timed well.

Squirtle's basic mix-ups are also very versatile even without needing to trick his opponent into making mistakes. His general safety from what the game considers to be a neutral position is amazing--F-Tilt is virtually unpunishable without a hard read, his standing grab is one of the largest non-tether grabs in the game, he can move forward in his Shield or while doing most ground moves via Shellshifting (his pivot animation, which is used for spacing and many ATs), and his average movement speed is quite high, due to True Hydroplaning and other Shellshifting ATs. Shellshifting actually causes the game to consider Squirtle to be in neutral animation for most of the pivot animation, meaning you can pivot into a sliding Shield, sliding Jab, F-Tilt (which stops the slide), U-Tilt...For a look at a few of them, check this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PrCcuSqAHU

Due to these traits, as well as my belief that Squirtle fits in the Melee mold rather well in his unmodified state, leads me to suggest that gameplay changes in relation to the character should largely be concerned with tweaks, rather than overhauling his moveset. I will go over some strong and weak points in relation to Brawl Squirtle being played in the P:M engine, as well as a few creative alternatives to potentially mitigate any issues.

First, F-Tilt is a huge concern. The cooldown is extremely low, and it starts putting opponents into tumble animation at somewhat low percents. That becomes much more powerful in P:M, due to the gravity changes forcing a tech from opponents. As a result, it becomes too easy to create a very advantageous position for Squirtle in its current state. I would recommend preventing it from putting the opponent into tumble animation until higher percents (or never causing them to tumble from it), so that it becomes a safe, simple poke with low risk and low reward. It's good enough as an annoyance, a gimping tool, and a good anti-air; it doesn't need to be any more than that. Alternatively, the cooldown could be increased, but, the increased movement speed of Melee seems to suggest that it wouldn't be nearly as safe as it once was. It's worth looking into, since it's almost impossible for most Brawl characters to punish a well-spaced Squirtle F-Tilt without a hard read.

Neutral-B must also be dealt with in a very careful manner, as it has the potential to be an ineffective move (as it is in Brawl) or an overpowered move (as it might be in P:M). In Brawl, hitting an opponent with Neutral-B usually does very little; hitting an aerial opponent would usually just prevent them from falling instead of hurting their recovery (possibly because of the generally floaty physics). In Brawl, its uses are almost entirely limited to messing with projectile users (canceling/pushing away projectiles, and pushing opponents offstage when they can't move against the water knockback) and Doubles shenanigans (sliding Smashes, saving a partner, etc.). However, the general physics of P:M make me wonder how it would transfer.

My greatest concerns involve the greater aerial mobility of run jumps causing it to push the opponent almost nowhere in a relatively neutral position, and the gravity, weaker recoveries, and lack of an auto-ledgesnap making the Neutral-B a monster for edgeguards and gimps. I propose an interesting potential solution to both while enhancing the utility and usefulness of the move altogether--Focus on its hitlag-inducing properties. When Neutral-B hits an opponent's attack in its current state, the opponent becomes stuck in hitlag, due to constantly hitting each "piece" of water. This is very difficult to capitalize on in Brawl due to significant endlag, but still possible, due to the ability to retain horizontal aerial mobility while using it in the air. In P:M, I suggest making Neutral-B's stream either cancelable in some useful way or greatly reducing the endlag. Either way, it should also be limited on it pushing properties to only affecting grounded opponents (or at least being very weak pushback against aerial opponents). This way, a Squirtle edgeguard would still rely on putting oneself out there, and characters heavy on short-hopped, fastfalled, L-Canceled aerials (hereby referred to as "shuffled" aerials) would have to think twice about throwing them out, for fear that they're frozen in place by Neutral-B and punished accordingly. This puts an interest spin on the move that modifies both Squirtle's offense and defense in a way that requires thought to use effective and for an opponent to overcome without being particularly powerful.

Another move of concern would be Squirtle's Forward-B. Its main use in Brawl is useless in P:M (momentum canceling), and the risk involved with getting grabbed in P:M is much greater, so it needs some tweaking, as the reward is very weak in its current state. A good solution doesn't require much work--If the move were made to be jump-cancelable, it would give Squirtle the ability to defend himself if the opponent shields, and it would allow Squirtle to follow up on the pop-up if it hits the opponent. Reduced startup and greater speed on the Forward-B would probably be necessary to make it effective. Another thing to consider would be the no-damage super armor the move has in its Brawl form, which is similar to Kirby's Down-B. I would recommend changing it to slight heavy armor (think Brawl Snake's Cypher), if only to prevent rapid Jabs from being a brainless solution to defending against it, but, either way, it probably shouldn't retain its current no-damage super armor, for fear that it would be too low a risk for too high a reward.

Some basic tweaks involve differentiating some of his moves. There could be greater differences between F-Air/B-Air/N-Air, F-Throw/B-Throw, and F-Smash/D-Smash that would allow for a more versatile moveset.

N-Air has a weaker hitbox than F-Air in terms of both knockback and damage, and the range is reduced. An interesting new trait for N-Air would be to add super armor on the sweetspot hit (frames 4-7, I believe). That creates a small window of opportunity to defend that isn't instantaneous, which seems fair to me. Squirtle's aerials are very straightforward and don't swing around on a 2D plane, making him vulnerable to diagonal approaches.

The main differences between F-Air and B-Air in the heat of a match come down to this--F-Air is stronger due to greater knockback and damage, while B-Air is safer due to better range and less landing lag. I think that B-Air could be tweaked to supplement his moveset more than just being a safe alternative. Giving it pseudo-spike properties, sort of like a weak Melee/P:M Sheik F-Air could open up tech chase possibilities with more risk involved than F-Tilt. Giving B-Air more active sourspot frames would also be helpful for making it threatening as a poke, but that is negligible.

I'm in the PMBR now.

 

[Bomber7]

Congratz Luis!

 

[Rizen]

Good work, congratz

PMBR=Project Melee Back Room, right?
How does the PM Team feel about SSB4 that might be released in 2013? /just curious

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Good work, congratz

PMBR=Project Melee Back Room, right?
How does the PM Team feel about SSB4 that might be released in 2013? /just curious

Correct, that's what it means.

I don't think they've expressed an opinion. They're probably not concerned with it.

 

[Strong Badam]

The answer to that will depend on who you ask. Not everyone is a uber melee purist; some of us do play brawl a decent amount. We don't have a collective opinion on it

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

That read was so good. You'd still have oh so much fun with Marth.

 

[Myollnir]

Congratulations!

 

[Rizen]

'Just saw this:

Need y'alls input for this. It's sort of like an MU discussion.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228591

Spoiler

I'm beginning to think Rizen posts everywhere now.

Lol, no. Almost exclusively on the regional and boards for characters I use.

Spoiler

 

[Bomber7]

'Just saw this:

Lol, no. Almost exclusively on the regional and boards for characters I use.

Spoiler

I was like you once. I had connections on multiple boards, but then I stopped posting. Didn't have many connections after that.

Edit: Looking back at the online thread I made back in 2008 makes me feel really OLD.

[COLLAPSE="Hugz? "]

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[MaTA]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=142615

I'm pool bracket 6, I feel confident I'll make it out. Its top 3... One person will be pretty tough. Have you guys heard of anyone else? Not to familiar with them.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I assume D12 isn't D1. Isn't D1 a Dedede main?

 

[Myollnir]

Good luck! I don't know anyone in your pool (except M2K).

I'm gonna sleep lol, it's almost 6AM here.

 

[T-block]

I played a few friendlies with Soren I think. Won those as PT, but they were friendlies and he might have gotten a lot better since G2. Or it might be a different person entirely haha. No clue on anyone else.

I'm sure you'll do great though ^^

 

[Bomber7]

Saw a few names I recognized. Shaya, MikeHaze, Zigsta, and so on.