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Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
If it's the same as Brawl, it's not small; it's almost twice as fast. Frame 5 for half/mostly-charged and Frame 9 for full charge.
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On the subject of custom moves, what about hyper suction/suction chomp? I find the suction effect to make up for the loss of damage, but maybe it's not worth it?
I'm also kinda curious if the higher corkscrew is worth the loss of damage and not being able to angle it at all.
I'm also kinda curious if the higher corkscrew is worth the loss of damage and not being able to angle it at all.
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I guess I can elaborate. I did a bunch of testing this morning and found a good bit of information.
Normal Neutral-B was super-buffed since Brawl--Less endlag, more range, more knockback, and the ability to continue moving forward in mid-air for a bit on start-up. Hard to beat based on its sheer versatility; even though the next option increases its range, I think the safety it provides in low endlag is a slightly better advantage than the added range.
Suction Neutral-B is pretty good, as the windbox is active as soon as the normal grab-box would be. Most people will mash out of the regular Chomp one or two hits in, so the damage lost is a largely negligible in most cases, and the extra range provided is substantial. That said, it becomes much more vulnerable to "roll behind Wario" and doesn't have the flexibility that normal Neutral-B does in getting to close your mouth early. More testing is required, but I could see its uses varying by playstyle/matchup. Worth your time, most likely.
Garlic Neutral-B seems pretty awful outside of ledgeguarding, where it might very well shut down some characters' options on the ledge, period. Wario already has a lot of options on the ledge, though, and unless it is incredibly crippling to a specific opponent, I don't think it's worth losing your aerial command grab over.
Normal Forward-B is faster than it was in Brawl; it is harder to put on the stage, mostly requiring an edge and putting you offstage afteward, which is kind of risky to do. Recovery is less important with the knockback momentum glitch, but it's a nice balance between traditional recovery and offensive potential. Pales in comparison to the Heavy bike, but if you're not confident in the aforementioned glitch, this isn't a bad option.
Fast Forward-B increases your burst range for when people try to punish your landings or roll away in comparison to the other bikes, but the other bikes do well enough at that, IMO. The low bike HP means that throwing it around is much less potent (and I think that bike throwing will become an important part of his gameplay in Smash 4), and even though it's great for recovery, the knockback momentum glitch he has pretty much assures that Wario will never have to worry about recovery, so it's a moot point. The worst of the three, though it's still a good move, regardless; if anything, having less than 5 HP is great for building Waft by eating bike parts. Ideal for Smash Run, but not much else, I feel.
Heavy Forward-B is my personal favorite--Any bike hit resulting from the bike riding along the ground puts the opponent in the ground like the Pitfall item. I think the time spent grounded is relative to how much damage they've taken, so you can use it to set up follow-ups reasonably well. The shorter jump off the bike also speeds up your ability to follow up. The bike has loads of HP (seems to be about 40%, compare that to the normal bike's ~20%) and doesn't slide far if you jump off while on-stage, meaning you don't need a ledge or convenient platform to quickly get it lying around. A wheelie gives you a short burst of speed and will still ground people, even if it's just because the front tire hits someone on a platform! It is less useful for recovery (but still useful if you jump off immediately), but that, again, should be a moot point since Wario players need to use and abuse the knockback momentum glitch to recover. Honestly, I think this one is a no-brainer, though the regular Forward-B is still a great move in and of itself.
Normal Up-B was buffed since Brawl--A lot more range and fair knockback make it stand out as a good recovery option. Solid out-of-shield in a pinch, as well. No invincibility, and it's not especially fast, but it's a no-frills, good recovery move.
Flexible Up-B decreases the range and damage (9% instead of 13% because it gets fewer hits) a fair amount, but the real draw would be the fact that it becomes a more interesting out-of-shield option. Someone trying to space moves on your shield horizontally might get the LARIATOOOOO, and that's cool. If you're trying to recover vertically, always-always-always try to go straight upward, or close to, as you lose a -lot- of height going diagonally. This might be a matchup-specific one, but I kind of like it and encourage people to experiment with it.
Recovery Up-B is awful; regular Up-B is already pretty great for recovery, and losing the ability to steer it at all as well as the ability to hit people with it makes it very predictable and punishable. Never, ever use this move.
Normal Down-B takes almost two minutes to charge but has obscene knockback, dealing 28% when full and often killing at ~50% before the hit. Great way to decisively take a stock, no real drawbacks, just a great ace-in-the-hole.
Flower Down-B has a longer charge time than Turbo Down-B and only adds a bit of extra damage in comparison to normal Down-B through the Flower status in exchange for a lot of knockback. The worst of both worlds, and it only exists as a "your **** don't stink" joke as far as I can tell; stay away from it.
Copy/pasting my Turbo Down-B text: Turbo Waft does 19% at full while normal Waft does 28%, which is also not that significant a difference in terms of damage (where the latter used to do 42% in Brawl), but 30 seconds compared to ~1:51 definitely is. If you're landing Wafts in neutral often, you're either a mind reader or your opponent isn't that great at fighting Wario; it's all about getting them while they're vulnerable. Sure, you don't have to worry about "wasting Waft time" holding onto a full charge as much with the normal variant, but you don't feel the pressure of it just going to waste if you miss, either. Utility trumps raw power, I think, especially when it's still pretty powerful for how flexible it is.
tl;dr--There are two interesting choices within Neutral-B, Up-B, and Down-B. My personal favorite right now is Normal Neutral-B, Heavy Forward-B, Normal Up-B, and Turbo Down-B (1313).
Normal Neutral-B was super-buffed since Brawl--Less endlag, more range, more knockback, and the ability to continue moving forward in mid-air for a bit on start-up. Hard to beat based on its sheer versatility; even though the next option increases its range, I think the safety it provides in low endlag is a slightly better advantage than the added range.
Suction Neutral-B is pretty good, as the windbox is active as soon as the normal grab-box would be. Most people will mash out of the regular Chomp one or two hits in, so the damage lost is a largely negligible in most cases, and the extra range provided is substantial. That said, it becomes much more vulnerable to "roll behind Wario" and doesn't have the flexibility that normal Neutral-B does in getting to close your mouth early. More testing is required, but I could see its uses varying by playstyle/matchup. Worth your time, most likely.
Garlic Neutral-B seems pretty awful outside of ledgeguarding, where it might very well shut down some characters' options on the ledge, period. Wario already has a lot of options on the ledge, though, and unless it is incredibly crippling to a specific opponent, I don't think it's worth losing your aerial command grab over.
Normal Forward-B is faster than it was in Brawl; it is harder to put on the stage, mostly requiring an edge and putting you offstage afteward, which is kind of risky to do. Recovery is less important with the knockback momentum glitch, but it's a nice balance between traditional recovery and offensive potential. Pales in comparison to the Heavy bike, but if you're not confident in the aforementioned glitch, this isn't a bad option.
Fast Forward-B increases your burst range for when people try to punish your landings or roll away in comparison to the other bikes, but the other bikes do well enough at that, IMO. The low bike HP means that throwing it around is much less potent (and I think that bike throwing will become an important part of his gameplay in Smash 4), and even though it's great for recovery, the knockback momentum glitch he has pretty much assures that Wario will never have to worry about recovery, so it's a moot point. The worst of the three, though it's still a good move, regardless; if anything, having less than 5 HP is great for building Waft by eating bike parts. Ideal for Smash Run, but not much else, I feel.
Heavy Forward-B is my personal favorite--Any bike hit resulting from the bike riding along the ground puts the opponent in the ground like the Pitfall item. I think the time spent grounded is relative to how much damage they've taken, so you can use it to set up follow-ups reasonably well. The shorter jump off the bike also speeds up your ability to follow up. The bike has loads of HP (seems to be about 40%, compare that to the normal bike's ~20%) and doesn't slide far if you jump off while on-stage, meaning you don't need a ledge or convenient platform to quickly get it lying around. A wheelie gives you a short burst of speed and will still ground people, even if it's just because the front tire hits someone on a platform! It is less useful for recovery (but still useful if you jump off immediately), but that, again, should be a moot point since Wario players need to use and abuse the knockback momentum glitch to recover. Honestly, I think this one is a no-brainer, though the regular Forward-B is still a great move in and of itself.
Normal Up-B was buffed since Brawl--A lot more range and fair knockback make it stand out as a good recovery option. Solid out-of-shield in a pinch, as well. No invincibility, and it's not especially fast, but it's a no-frills, good recovery move.
Flexible Up-B decreases the range and damage (9% instead of 13% because it gets fewer hits) a fair amount, but the real draw would be the fact that it becomes a more interesting out-of-shield option. Someone trying to space moves on your shield horizontally might get the LARIATOOOOO, and that's cool. If you're trying to recover vertically, always-always-always try to go straight upward, or close to, as you lose a -lot- of height going diagonally. This might be a matchup-specific one, but I kind of like it and encourage people to experiment with it.
Recovery Up-B is awful; regular Up-B is already pretty great for recovery, and losing the ability to steer it at all as well as the ability to hit people with it makes it very predictable and punishable. Never, ever use this move.
Normal Down-B takes almost two minutes to charge but has obscene knockback, dealing 28% when full and often killing at ~50% before the hit. Great way to decisively take a stock, no real drawbacks, just a great ace-in-the-hole.
Flower Down-B has a longer charge time than Turbo Down-B and only adds a bit of extra damage in comparison to normal Down-B through the Flower status in exchange for a lot of knockback. The worst of both worlds, and it only exists as a "your **** don't stink" joke as far as I can tell; stay away from it.
Copy/pasting my Turbo Down-B text: Turbo Waft does 19% at full while normal Waft does 28%, which is also not that significant a difference in terms of damage (where the latter used to do 42% in Brawl), but 30 seconds compared to ~1:51 definitely is. If you're landing Wafts in neutral often, you're either a mind reader or your opponent isn't that great at fighting Wario; it's all about getting them while they're vulnerable. Sure, you don't have to worry about "wasting Waft time" holding onto a full charge as much with the normal variant, but you don't feel the pressure of it just going to waste if you miss, either. Utility trumps raw power, I think, especially when it's still pretty powerful for how flexible it is.
tl;dr--There are two interesting choices within Neutral-B, Up-B, and Down-B. My personal favorite right now is Normal Neutral-B, Heavy Forward-B, Normal Up-B, and Turbo Down-B (1313).
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Really appreciate the write up. I wasn't aware that you can still recover from the heavy bike, but I haven't really even unlocked it yet to try out. Though you're right about the momentum glitch being our main recovery, so I guess it's not a big drawback.
Thanks again.
Thanks again.
I mean, it's not a huge boost, but you still get about your double-jump's worth, as well as being flung forward during the jump. It is significant.
Goodstyle_4
Smash Journeyman
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http://smashboards.com/threads/grab-release-mega-thread-spoilers-almost-zero-combos.373720/
Sooo... Grab Release in this game turned out to be mostly a non-issue (thank god) except against Little Mac. I haven't fought a good Mac player so I can't analyse the match-up, but I think he will be a prominent character competitively so this is still important. Anyone have insight on what to do with this little *******? In my experience against low level Macs, biting works like a charm and ledge guarding seems fairly easy against him.
Sooo... Grab Release in this game turned out to be mostly a non-issue (thank god) except against Little Mac. I haven't fought a good Mac player so I can't analyse the match-up, but I think he will be a prominent character competitively so this is still important. Anyone have insight on what to do with this little *******? In my experience against low level Macs, biting works like a charm and ledge guarding seems fairly easy against him.
Abusing his poor airgame by staying airborne is probably Wario's best bet.
Both of his anti-air options are plenty punishable if they whiff, and you have an easy method of getting him into the air by using a late nair hit. Once he is in the air, his only options are to try to airdodge past you and risk being punished on the landing, or try to counter, which can be predicted or you can just bite him instead.
If you manage to get him off the stage at any point, he's pretty much dead as long as you don't fall for a counter, though at low percents, you could just bite him if he tries, which basically ensures his demise if you fall low enough before it ends.
Both of his anti-air options are plenty punishable if they whiff, and you have an easy method of getting him into the air by using a late nair hit. Once he is in the air, his only options are to try to airdodge past you and risk being punished on the landing, or try to counter, which can be predicted or you can just bite him instead.
If you manage to get him off the stage at any point, he's pretty much dead as long as you don't fall for a counter, though at low percents, you could just bite him if he tries, which basically ensures his demise if you fall low enough before it ends.
Tips against Rosalina and ZSS?
It sucks that his air game is nerfed, but his ground game is kinda buffed now.
Btw, do you guys want to talk someday about the future of Wario in Smash 4?, i think it will be really cool to discuss and we can meet all of the Wario mains.
Edit: Should we start a MU thread? ;P
;3
It sucks that his air game is nerfed, but his ground game is kinda buffed now.
Btw, do you guys want to talk someday about the future of Wario in Smash 4?, i think it will be really cool to discuss and we can meet all of the Wario mains.
Edit: Should we start a MU thread? ;P
;3
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Bike is probably your best bet against Rosalina, since Luma is pretty vulnerable to it. I haven't really faced good Rosalinas or ZSS to say for sure, though, but even the bad Rosalinas gave me trouble. She's really tough.
A MU thread would be great.
A MU thread would be great.
I don't think she can "swallow" the Bike, either. I could be wrong about that.
Ridel
Smash Ace
I think if it is moving she can get rid of it, but if it's lying down it will just gravitate toward her because it's considered an item.
Twewy
Smash Lord
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Wario's aerials are good in this game, right? Bait him to the ledge, throw him off, and do a couple of fairs to him.
What exactly am I supposed to do to edge guard aside from waft and not including custom moves?
Ridel
Smash Ace
You could use his N-Air, F-Air, D-Air, D-Tilt, and in some cases D-Smash and F-Smash to edge-guard. At least that is what I have found mot useful.
I just double fair people to gimp them most of the time. I try to bair the characters who can't be gimped due to their stronger recovery, though.
And I agree that the bike probably helps a lot against Rosalina, since it sends Luma flying a good distance if it connects while Wario is riding it. Wario's also one of the few characters who can actually grab her semi-reliably due to his back throw knocking Luma away.
And I agree that the bike probably helps a lot against Rosalina, since it sends Luma flying a good distance if it connects while Wario is riding it. Wario's also one of the few characters who can actually grab her semi-reliably due to his back throw knocking Luma away.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
So I was testing DACUS earlier (DACUS in 3DS is a *****) and I found out that Wario can do a gatling combo like Falco and Snake in Brawl.
Was this previously known?
Was this previously known?
Yeah, I'd heard he has that available to him. Might be useful against shieldgrab attempts in a pinch, too.
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Bike throwing is incredible. Just got off from playing some matches where I made some comebacks (or close) thanks to the huge damage it deals.
Really need to find a safe way get the bike to stay on the stage after dismounting it, though.
Really need to find a safe way get the bike to stay on the stage after dismounting it, though.
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Magik0722
Smash Champion
Run off the stage, then once you are immediately off the stage bike back onto the stage. The bike will take very close to the edge. Its what I've been using to get the bike on stage quickly.
The problem with that is that it puts you under the stage and falling. It feels pretty vulnerable.
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Been experimenting with it. There aren't a lot of opportunities to do it reliably, especially when you're rushed down, but I've had success in getting the damage I wanted out of it when I did get the chance.
Granted, it's For Glory, so not exactly the best place...
EDIT: Should clarify that this is about throwing the bike in general haha.
Granted, it's For Glory, so not exactly the best place...
EDIT: Should clarify that this is about throwing the bike in general haha.
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Magik0722
Smash Champion
Huh? We talking about the same thing here? Everytime I've done it I'm never too far from the stage. A double jump more than puts you back on.
Sure, but then you're almost out of resources to get back. A character doing a shorthop aerial can cover a lot of the space that Wario can occupy, and since his horizontal aerial mobility was nerfed from Brawl, it just doesn't feel so safe to me.
Maybe I'm paranoid.
Maybe I'm paranoid.
I've noticed that for some odd reason, the initial speed of Wario's bike is much lower if you use it at the right edge of a level, and only the right edge.
It goes slow enough for the normal bike that you can jump off and it'll be in the perfect position for edgeguard usage.
On a random sidenote, the HP values for the different bikes are 18, 5, and 40 respectively, and each bounce the bike makes off of an opponent or when tossed in the air/at the ground seems to reduce that value by five.
It goes slow enough for the normal bike that you can jump off and it'll be in the perfect position for edgeguard usage.
On a random sidenote, the HP values for the different bikes are 18, 5, and 40 respectively, and each bounce the bike makes off of an opponent or when tossed in the air/at the ground seems to reduce that value by five.
A hard downward bike throw will cause it to bounce twice if you face left, but only once if you face right.
TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
So, IDK if this has been discussed before but, I love using Dair as a kill move/pressure move now, even if it doesn't autocancel. It kills really good and since SDI is basically non-existent it connects really smoothly. Kills at 130% or higher for midweights I THINK, high %s but it's fairly good especially if they're recovering vertically. The last hit is what does it so you can just throw it out and be like WAHAHAHA.
Reason I suggest it vertically is cause that way no matter where they're sent they're dead, if they're sent inwards they get stage spiked and if they're sent to the side they just die normally =3
This character is super super fun in this game.
Reason I suggest it vertically is cause that way no matter where they're sent they're dead, if they're sent inwards they get stage spiked and if they're sent to the side they just die normally =3
This character is super super fun in this game.
crazyninjagod
Smash Rookie
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just asking (I might be asking a noob question started using him in smash 4 
sorry)
doesn't wario kind of counter little mac with his chomp because he can just neut b on the edge when mac tries to side b recover and most of the time it goes into chomp and keep on throwing him out even killing him from the knockback as well as using his bike which you can use to trick macs to use his counter or try to hit and jump and use a waft or something?
i could be wrong but i'm a noob Wario player
just asking too isn't garlic breath an amazing edge guard?
sorry)doesn't wario kind of counter little mac with his chomp because he can just neut b on the edge when mac tries to side b recover and most of the time it goes into chomp and keep on throwing him out even killing him from the knockback as well as using his bike which you can use to trick macs to use his counter or try to hit and jump and use a waft or something?
i could be wrong but i'm a noob Wario player
just asking too isn't garlic breath an amazing edge guard?
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Wario is good at gimping, which automatically gives him a bit of an edge against Mac.
The problem is actually getting him off the stage in the first place, since intelligent Macs play defensively and wait for you come to them at the center of the level.
As for the garlic breath, it's just a terrible custom overall. The stun doesn't scale with the opponent's damage, and they can mash out of it quickly enough to prevent follow-ups.
The problem is actually getting him off the stage in the first place, since intelligent Macs play defensively and wait for you come to them at the center of the level.
As for the garlic breath, it's just a terrible custom overall. The stun doesn't scale with the opponent's damage, and they can mash out of it quickly enough to prevent follow-ups.
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Tintin_20
Smash Rookie
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Nice tip. I had no idea it kills, and I use it now to mix up when people get used to air dodging my Fairs offstage.
GroundZero996
Smash Apprentice
Bowser strats?
It looks like Shulk can't sweetspot Yoshi's Island's edge against Garlic Breath because of the angle change at the edges. I would imagine he's not the only one.
Garlic Breath might be pretty good for ledgeguarding in certain matchups, too; it covers an astounding amount of ledge options.
EDIT: Bowser strats? Bite more. He doesn't like it.
Garlic Breath might be pretty good for ledgeguarding in certain matchups, too; it covers an astounding amount of ledge options.
EDIT: Bowser strats? Bite more. He doesn't like it.
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TTTTTsd
Gordeau Main Paint Drinker
Yo, BOYS! Dair is love, Dair is life! I found something funny about it. It's great for blocking vertical recoveries (ESPECIALLY FIREFOX) cause if they trade against it, they actually get softly meteor'd, and at high %s that usually spells death! I'm not even kidding! (IDK if it's just on the first hit but I'm pretty sure it's on any hit but the last). You can literally not go wrong with a Dair.
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GroundZero996
Smash Apprentice
Really? because it feels like everything Browser has out ranges Wario by just a bit.
It's also pretty good for getting easy stage spikes.
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Yeah the first hit of DAir is a weak spike. I've gotten early kills from it because the other person was so confused :lol
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andalsoandy
Smash Lord
How do I manage to hit it without the rest of the hits connecting? This sounds like an interesting tactic but I can't quite figure out the timing.
Shmebulock
Smash Cadet
Quick question, does anyone else think Wario's dash animation looks slightly like his shoulder dash? There are times when I do, and times when I don't.