Meta Wry Mustache Man: Dominating Strategies Discussion

[Ridel]

Wario is the favorite of my mains so far he just fits my play-style perfectly. He is my most played character in For Glory 1V1's and I have only lost 2 of the 50 or so matches I've played with him. A lot of people don't know this but you can auto-cancel short hop B-Air. If you do B-Air as soon as you short hop and time it correctly when you land you should be able to act out of it almost instantly. This allows you to follow up with with a dash grab and it works quite often.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Wario is the favorite of my mains so far he just fits my play-style perfectly. He is my most played character in For Glory 1V1's and I have only lost 2 of the 50 or so matches I've played with him. A lot of people don't know this but you can auto-cancel short hop B-Air. If you do B-Air as soon as you short hop and time it correctly when you land you should be able to act out of it almost instantly. This allows you to follow up with with a dash grab and it works quite often.

Ya, the timing can be a real ***** though. I hate accidentally falling on my back and eating a smash attack from my opponent lol. Doing the same thing with Fair is much easier. Although, I'm not too familiar with the dash grab follow up, that's interesting, especially when combined with roll canceling.

I'm doing really well with Wario on For Glory too (I've never done as well online in any other FG), played about 200 matches with 85% wins. Wario is so perfect online because he's heavy as hell, the bike is a scrub killer, and no one ever sees the Waft coming.

I recently played a match between me and some ZSS player. My opponent got a massive lead on me early on, by the time I killed him for the first time I was already over 100%. Anyways, since ZSS can't kill for ****, I was able to survive until 166% when he was at around 40%. Thinking he was safe, the guy has ZSS attacking while getting up from the ledge, probably thinking "what's the worse that could happen? I'm only at 40%...", I block the attack and immediately Waft and the dude died. It was my most rotten win yet lol.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ya, the timing can be a real ***** though. I hate accidentally falling on my back and eating a smash attack from my opponent lol. Doing the same thing with Fair is much easier. Although, I'm not too familiar with the dash grab follow up, that's interesting, especially when combined with roll canceling.

I'm doing really well with Wario on For Glory too (I've never done as well online in any other FG), played about 200 matches with 85% wins. Wario is so perfect online because he's heavy as hell, the bike is a scrub killer, and no one ever sees the Waft coming.

I recently played a match between me and some ZSS player. My opponent got a massive lead on me early on, by the time I killed him for the first time I was already over 100%. Anyways, since ZSS can't kill for ****, I was able to survive until 166% when he was at around 40%. Thinking he was safe, the guy has ZSS attacking while getting up from the ledge, probably thinking "what's the worse that could happen? I'm only at 40%...", I block the attack and immediately Waft and the dude died. It was my most rotten win yet lol.

In other words

 

[Twewy]

That physics glitch is really good for recovering back onto stage.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

In other words

I have no idea what you're trying to say with this. Also, good matches btw. You have a good Robin

 

[PK Gaming]

I have no idea what you're trying to say with this. Also, good matches btw. You have a good Robin

Game Bandit. Perhaps I should have used a different image.

And right back at you. Your Wario is absolutely vicious.

 

[warioismymain]

I just vs'd an awesome wario named wario game, I think his name was if your here then pls reply. Btw my name was Tyler. P.S. Those matches were mirrors.

 

[Ridel]

I'll just leave this here..........................................................................

https://vine.co/v/OAMg71Qga1m

 

[Ridel]

I just vs'd an awesome wario named wario game, I think his name was if your here then pls reply. Btw my name was Tyler. P.S. Those matches were mirrors.
I recently played a match between me and some ZSS player. My opponent got a massive lead on me early on, by the time I killed him for the first time I was already over 100%. Anyways, since ZSS can't kill for ****, I was able to survive until 166% when he was at around 40%. Thinking he was safe, the guy has ZSS attacking while getting up from the ledge, probably thinking "what's the worse that could happen? I'm only at 40%...", I block the attack and immediately Waft and the dude died. It was my most rotten win yet lol.

Had a similar experience with a Rosalina except we were both at high percents and she made the mistake of F-Smashing my shield. The biggest problem I seem to be having now are bloody projectile campers since Wario has such difficulty approaching. It's also a problem if the rest of your mains don't have any good projectile either so when I face a Toon Link, R.O.B, or Robin I'm basically screwed.

(Yeah I know Dedede has his Gordos and Ludwig his Mecha-Koopas, but they are some of the easiest to counter projectiles in the game)

 

[Twewy]

I usually end up Chomping most projectiles that come my way. There are some he can't though. From the top of my head, Pac-Man's key and Dedede's Gordos are some of them.

 

[Magik0722]

You can eat the gordo.

 

[Twewy]

Really? That helps a lot, then.

 

[Spinosaurus]

You can also eat the key.

 

[warioismymain]

So apparently using the bike is unsafe as he'll so I'm gonna start only using the bike for recovery I think giving up the bike is gonna make me a better player.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Bike is really good.

Just don't overuse it. It's such a scrub killer that I have a habit of pulling it out at every opportunity though. :<

To be honest, I still feel like this character is largely unexplored in this game.

 

[Ridel]

Bike is really good.

Just don't overuse it. It's such a scrub killer that I have a habit of pulling it out at every opportunity though. :<

To be honest, I still feel like this character is largely unexplored in this game.

Yeah not many people main him in singles in Brawl because of his bad approach and it seems a good chunk of people still have no interest in him, so it is manly going to be a few who are going to develop Wario's meta.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Doesn't help that he still has trouble approaching as well. This is a character that demands your patience.

 

[Ridel]

Doesn't help that he still has trouble approaching as well. This is a character that demands your patience.

Luckily being a Jiggs main in Melee has allowed me to develop a good sense of patience so it's not a problem for me. It's only really frustrating when that patience doesn't pay off.

 

[Shaya]

From what I've seen, air dodging in the air is definitely still a good thing. The mobility of the likes of wario and jigglypuff means that their directional (as in holding that way in advance) air dodges are pretty hard to cover, combined with fast-ish body aerials and you have something slippery and annoying.

I think the likes of jiggs and wario will be using air dodges all over again, much like Wario did in Brawl. It's all about not landing with it though. In wario's case I think the b reversing bite is going to be key to opponent's respecting you if they're grounded/antsy about jumping up in the air to follow you.

I'm by no means a wario player or main, but one of my main training partners/rivals in Brawl mained Wario for a solid 3 years and have ubermeinsche practise against that character.

 

[meleebrawler]

Has anyone ever experienced a weird surge of speed or acceleration in the air?
I think I remember it happening after getting hit.

 

[Rakurai]

That's Wario's momentum glitch.

There's a whole topic about it.

 

[-Mars-]

From what I've seen, air dodging in the air is definitely still a good thing. The mobility of the likes of wario and jigglypuff means that their directional (as in holding that way in advance) air dodges are pretty hard to cover, combined with fast-ish body aerials and you have something slippery and annoying.

I think the likes of jiggs and wario will be using air dodges all over again, much like Wario did in Brawl. It's all about not landing with it though. In wario's case I think the b reversing bite is going to be key to opponent's respecting you if they're grounded/antsy about jumping up in the air to follow you.

I'm by no means a wario player or main, but one of my main training partners/rivals in Brawl mained Wario for a solid 3 years and have ubermeinsche practise against that character.

Yea he still hits like a truck, has probably top 3 best recoveries in the game, and never dies.

And now he doesn't have to worry about MK....he's going to be a problem.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Plus Marth's reduced reach, lack of chain grabs and no more grab release (for the most part).

But then there's Sheik.

 

[Shaya]

Plus Marth's reduced reach, lack of chain grabs and no more grab release (for the most part).

But then there's Sheik.

Marth doesn't have less reach.
I would even dare to make the claim that moves like Forward Smash, Shieldbreaker and Down Tilt have more range than they did in Brawl.
Having no grab release in this match up definitely is going to make it harder though, but I think the lack of air dodging into the ground probably is going to equate a losing match up to Marth again (as that was really the only way to get in against him beyond punishing silly whiffs).

My opinion of that match up in Brawl was like, "we'd probably lose if we didn't have grab release kill moves". We legitimately can never kill him in that game at all without it.

 

[PKNintendo]

Marth doesn't have less reach.
I would even dare to make the claim that moves like Forward Smash, Shieldbreaker and Down Tilt have more range than they did in Brawl.
Having no grab release in this match up definitely is going to make it harder though, but I think the lack of air dodging into the ground probably is going to equate a losing match up to Marth again (as that was really the only way to get in against him beyond punishing silly whiffs).

My opinion of that match up in Brawl was like, "we'd probably lose if we didn't have grab release kill moves". We legitimately can never kill him in that game at all without it.

Isn't that the case in Smash IV as well? Marth can keep Wario out for days, but when it comes down to killing Marth seems like he would have an incredible difficult time doing the deed. Furthermore, how does Marth deal with the Waft? Marth seems especially vulnerable to it off stage, and if it's charged, all Wario has to do is block or spotdodge a KO attempt to punish Marth and get an early KO (it kills at like 70% in this game, max charged).

 

[Shaya]

If I don't have to fear air dodging into the ground, I can actually use kill moves in situations that aren't going to result in me taking a forward smash if they get through with invincibility and his landing lag would otherwise turn pretty neutral in frame advantages rather than be a massive negative.

That inability to do that cripples the match up at every stage, I have to respect Wario significantly less. I don't have triple jump glitch from the ledge anymore, which was a position in which Wario could basically guarantee a stock against Marth in Brawl, the forward throw/back throw change up was also a nail in the coffin for that scenario as well. All Wario had to do was grab one move and fthrow at any decent percent to put me in a situation I had close to zero options in. That's what defined the match up for him.

Unless Waft was significantly buffed, it really wasn't a thing you could rely on against Marth. I'm not sure how vulnerable he is to waft off stage when you don't have the ability to go to the vertical depths we do.

 

[Rakurai]

Wario has a very large amount of vertical distance on his recovery if the bike is tilted backwards before he jumps off.

Enough that you can make it back to the stage from pretty much anywhere when used in conjunction with a fully charged waft.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Unless Waft was significantly buffed, it really wasn't a thing you could rely on against Marth. I'm not sure how vulnerable he is to waft off stage when you don't have the ability to go to the vertical depths we do.

Doesn't Wario have a significantly better vertical recovery than Marth with bike alone? I don't believe in discussing matchups this early in the game's lifecycle (and before the Wii U release), but I don't know if you can make that point about vertical depths here.

 

[Shaya]

Have you seen Dolphin Jump? But I get what you're saying, I didn't doubt you could get back from those depths, just that we have speedy invincible options.

I'm not going to put a number on a match up, but I feel relatively comfortable talking about characters from previous games, especially when character capabilities haven't been changed drastically. I do agree that we won't be having a good time killing you, but at the same time I don't think your means of getting in on us have gotten any better (IMO, it's worse), so who knows where it'll end up in tournament play.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

My older brother's friend plays Wario competitively. They both have played Smash competitively since Melee and the friend has played Wario since Project M. There was something important he took notice of when playing against my brother.

There is a movement glitch off the stage that allows you to eat your bike and immediately spawn another one.

From what I gathered from what my older brother said in the match:

You run the bike close to the edge and fall off and wait at just the right moment to up B then immediately eat the bike.

I don't know the full details, but I will look into them more.

Eating the bike twice gives you near full charged waft and it can K.O. at 40%.

 

[Rakurai]

I know from experience that eating the bike doesn't actually increase the waft's charge any more then eating a standard item does, and it takes over 40 items to max out the waft, so that sounds kind of iffy to me.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Alright, I briefly tested the Waft charge mechanics and it looks like it goes like this.

The Waft charges to max at 1:50
Big items like the bike itself add 2 seconds of Waft Charge
Small items like the bike parts add 1 second of Waft Charge each

Haven't tested bombs or energy projectiles yet.

EDIT: OK, bombs and projectiles don't add anything to the Waft charge, but eating explosives does 5% to Wario and anyone close gets hit with a really high knockback shockwave.

Tomorrow I'll test eating food items, you may be able to get Waft charge just from eating them normally without the Chomp attack.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was asked what I thought about Wario, but most of the stuff is what you already know, I'm sure. Sorry!

Not a lot to say, I think. He's worse than he is in Brawl, but I doubt that it's by a lot. Mechanics changes were largely against him this time around, is the biggest issue. His toned down horizontal aerial mobility is a significant blow, especially with multiple new characters having high aerial speeds and greater range. Many traditional approaches are much riskier this time around because it's a lot more difficult for him to land safely while mounting a reliable offense. N-Air being nerfed to hell hurt a -lot.-

That said, he got a number of small changes that give him a more balanced gameplan. Less endlag/more range/greater aerial drift after using Neutral-B is a huge boost; this move went from garbage in Brawl to being a real cornerstone of his offense. Slight range buff on F-Air/B-Air are appreciated, and the roll-cancel grab helps his grab range and general offense a whole lot. Ledge changes weren't great for him recovering but help him with edgeguards a whole lot, as does the increased power on D-Air.

I think he's still pretty good; I use him a fair amount in this game.

 

[Rakurai]

The vulnerability time when landing with air dodges hurts, since short-hopped air dodges were one of his best ways to get in on people in Brawl.

The bike changes at least help him a bit when it comes to approach options, though.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, it was one of my favorite things about new Wario. Being able to move better with it in your hands is huge; I think it will play a bigger role in fighting than most might think.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Let's not forget how important the Waft changes are in this game, especially now that it is a hell of a lot harder to kill all around. I think being able to kill people at the ledge at 40% with the max Waft is a huge deal, especially in this game where being able to kill reliably is a rare commodity for most characters.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The Waft wasn't changed all that significantly; as far as I can tell, full Waft is now more powerful than almost-full Waft (which was toned down), which is less interesting but a bit of a buff for Wario, sure.

As far as customs are concerned, I like Turbo Waft more, anyway. 18-damage, solid-power Waft every 30 seconds? Sign me up.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

The Waft wasn't changed all that significantly; as far as I can tell, full Waft is now more powerful than almost-full Waft (which was toned down), which is less interesting but a bit of a buff for Wario, sure.

As far as customs are concerned, I like Turbo Waft more, anyway. 18-damage, solid-power Waft every 30 seconds? Sign me up.

Turbo Waft lacks dat kill power though. I don't even think it kills at 100% lol, but I suppose it's good damage builder and I'd imagine it retains the super armor so it's good in that regard.

And the Full Power Waft is a lot more powerful than the near max variant this time around, killing at 60-70% at the centre and 40% at the ledge. Even though the almost-full Waft was toned down in this game, it is also still a potent kill move, killing at 80-90% (with the 1:00 charge killing at around 100%). Honestly, since killing in general in this game takes a lot more time, the knockback is still incredibly high considering the speed of the moves.

I firmly believe matches will be won or lost on this move since it is by far the best kill move Wario has and one of the best in the entire game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The full Waft still takes almost two minutes to charge, and full Turbo is perfectly fine as an edgeguard finisher, which is something Wario excels at to begin with. I'd rather have ~3 solid Wafts for gimping potential and extra damage than one for an all-or-nothing bit. Wario isn't as good at camping as he was in Brawl, so it's harder to run the clock for extra Wafts.

Turbo Waft does 19% at full while normal Waft does 28%, which is also not that significant a difference in terms of damage (where the latter used to do 42% in Brawl), but 30 seconds compared to ~1:51 definitely is. If you're landing Wafts in neutral often, you're either a mind reader or your opponent isn't that great at fighting Wario; it's all about getting them while they're vulnerable. Sure, you don't have to worry about "wasting Waft time" holding onto a full charge as much with the normal variant, but you don't feel the pressure of it just going to waste if you miss, either. Utility trumps raw power, I think, especially when it's still pretty powerful for how flexible it is.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Alright, maybe I ought to test out this turbo Waft more and use it in combat. I was immediately turned off to it originally due to the lack of kill power, but you do raise an interesting point. To land the regular Waft I often had to rely on mistakes my opponent made like unsafe aerials, ledge attacks, or grabs I spot dodged to punish. Perhaps that doesn't quite work in high level play, so it might be worth something to pick up a more consistent Waft.