World>USA in smash?

[AlphaZealot]

Metaknight is not the only problem. (Random question, is it actually Metaknight or Meta Knight? I feel like it's the first since it's his name.) Those stages cause the focus of competitiveness to shift from "Who is better at character v. character combat" to "Who is better at character v. character combat multiplied by who is better at taking advantage of the stage." This is not something that can be classified as right or wrong - here we reach a point where we are attempting to answer the very opinion-based, subjective question of "What should competitive Brawl be focused on."

The underlying complaint with the likes of Brinstar/Rainbow is MK. I've always found it ironic, considering he has always done way more horrific things on "neutrals".

 

[-Vocal-]

The underlying complaint with the likes of Brinstar/Rainbow is MK. I've always found it ironic, considering he has always done way more horrific things on "neutrals".

This is true. I'm beginning to have thoughts about how large of an effect these stages have on the definition of "Competitive Brawl," but by and large for the time being Meta Knight is the main concern when these stages are brought up.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Based on the fact that you had to take him to stages that heavily favor MK in order to win (minus the first match when you wrecked him), that shows that Brood is a more skillful player than you. Even with the gayness of sharking, timing out, Nados, dair etc, he still won.

Two ways to overcome this:

Choose a different character.

or

Get better. Since you are already the best MK player in the states, and if you refuse to choose another character, you must rethink your style vs Brood.


Best of luck.





Id love to see a couple of US players go to a large Japanese tournament to see how they do since the Japanese rules seem to favor who is more skillful than who can CP a really bad stage or time out their opponent. They pretty much just play on neutrals right?

I wonder if thats why the Japanese are so good? They cant rely on some auto-win rules, they must face their opponents fairly and improve on their weaknesses.

M2K never played Brood before these matches in tourney before AFAIK. Saying that he needs to get better or switched characters based on a tourney set is taking things a bit too far. You think that because M2K is (considered) the best player in the world, he isn't trying to get better? Of course he's trying to get better.

americans are always stupidly biased towards themselves and think of america as the center of the world, not just in smash. you're all raised to be patriotic *******.

If you honestly think all Americans are like this then you're just as bad as the people you're criticizing. Stop being ignorant.

 

[Nosboss]

Mew2King ain't best in the world.

He's the best in North America. I know most of us are from the U.S., but we ain't the world.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Then who's the best in the world?

 

[-Vocal-]

Then who's the best in the world?

M2K obviously.

Oh? What's that? They're the same person?

Nevermind.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I know. Kid said he wasn't the best, I want to know who is if M2K isn't.

 

[Nosboss]

lol

I'm not implying some Japanese/European/other NA player is the best in the world.

All I'm saying is you can't say M2K is better than the Japanese players he hasn't even played yet. I can make an equally unjustified claim that one of the Japanese players who didn't show up is the best.

You can likewise say the same thing for European players and whatnot, but I'm not getting that vibe from them as much as I am from the Japanese. Maybe it's because I saw them actually play whereas I have not had the fortune to see the Europeans play live.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Unless any Japanese player shows me that he's better than M2K, he's the best in the world in my book.

By your logic, someone would have to play against every player in the world to be considered the best.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

Brood just showed he was better player than him >_>

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Hahahaha, because beating someone on any given day definitely shows he's a better player. You're funny.

 

[Nosboss]

And by using your logic, I can claim one of the Japanese is the best player in the world.

I don't see why you have such a problem with this. Is there some problem I don't think M2K is the "best in the world" because on the technicality that I'm defining being the "best in the world" in a different way than you are?

 

[-Vocal-]

Iirc, in an interview during Apex, the Japanese players said that M2K is far better than Metaknights in Japan. So...they said it.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

And by using your logic, I can claim one of the Japanese is the best player in the world.

I don't see why you have such a problem with this. Is there some problem I don't think M2K is the "best in the world" because on the technicality that I'm defining being the "best in the world" in a different way than you are?

No, because I'd have no case proving that one of the Japanese is the best in the world.

I'm just saying your way of defining the best player in the world is irrational and unrealistic. Playing every player in the world to become the best is an impossible goal.

 

[Nosboss]

Before I say what I want to say, I'm going to ask this first:

Where did I ever say that to be the best in the world, you have to beat everyone in the world?

If you just assumed that's what I meant, you're highly mistaken.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You said "all I'm saying is you can't say M2K is better than the Japanese players he hasn't even played yet. I can make an equally unjustified claim that one of the Japanese players who didn't show up is the best."

Based on this, you make it seem like M2K would have to beat all of these Japanese players to become the best in the world.

 

[Nosboss]

So you got from my statement "Beat the best of Japan" and turned that into "Beat everyone in the world".

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You said players in Japan, not the best players in Japan. I don't see how what you said and what I said to be any different.

Besides, playing every good player in Japan is still quite a difficult thing to do. And to play them enough to make it so that one set isn't a fluke or anything would be even harder. Flying to Japan ain't cheap.

 

[Nosboss]

Neither is flying to America.

Is M2K the best in the world? I dunno, I haven't seen him play the Japanese (or the Europeans for that matter).

Are one of the Japanese the best in the world? I dunno, haven't their top players play us.

It doesn't matter if you think my definition of being "the best in the world" is unrealistic, irrational, improbable, whatever. It's the definition of the term. You can't be the "best in the world" if you haven't fought the world. Who knows? After APEX2, maybe the other Japanese will show up to a national. I hear the Europeans plan on coming over next year. So it may not be as "unrealistic and irrational" as you think it is.

I'll stick to calling M2K the best in North America until then, kthx.

Also, what's wrong with calling M2K the best in NA instead of best in the world? If you're curious by the way, I don't know who I'd put as the best in the world. If I had to pick right now though, I'd have to say M2K or Brood/Rain. I'll be glad to explain why.

 

[-Vocal-]

Neither is flying to America.

Is M2K the best in the world? I dunno, I haven't seen him play the Japanese (or the Europeans for that matter).

Are one of the Japanese the best in the world? I dunno, haven't their top players play us.

It doesn't matter if you think my definition of being "the best in the world" is unrealistic, irrational, improbable, whatever. It's the definition of the term. You can't be the "best in the world" if you haven't fought the world. Who knows? After APEX2, maybe the other Japanese will show up to a national. I hear the Europeans plan on coming over next year. So it may not be as "unrealistic and irrational" as you think it is.

I'll stick to calling M2K the best in North America until then, kthx.

Also, what's wrong with calling M2K the best in NA instead of best in the world? If you're curious by the way, I don't know who I'd put as the best in the world. If I had to pick right now though, I'd have to say M2K or Brood/Rain. I'll be glad to explain why.

You should know that the top players in Japan (of which I hear there are roughly 8) alternate on winning tournaments - there isn't one start and they're all basically on the same level. Calling Brood the best would be to say that those other 7 are the best as well. Not to mention it also means choosing Brood as the best has no argument: if you're going to say that it's because he beat M2K, then you'd have to say Larry is the best because he beat both of them.

 

[CO18]

smg @ the nonsense. M2k is still the best player. I do however belive Japan is on our level cant say theyre above us however. We have many many top players brood still lost to peeps as did rain losing to ally,lee,atomsk etc.

Like some of the things automatically assuming their chars because of brood is wrong. like kakera for example gets slayed by rain's mk from what ive seen yet atomsks ic's handled his mk pretty easily. Varying styles have lot to do with it.
No snake there is on ally's level however I do agree they have about 3 that are either about on or maybe slightly better than razer/hrnut/fatal's level etc.
Japanese interview was after ally played brood iirc where he got *****, Im sure rains opinion wouldve prob changed after ally manhandled him however.

But as far as chars are concerned its hard to tell, we knnow brood is the best oli, masashi is best pit and they have alot of top level players that are comparable to ours. No way to definitively say theyre better but I do believe we're about the same level. Europes good but they only have like 4 players that can be considered top.

also how can brood/rain be a contender for best in the world but not ally or dehf. that doesnt make any sense rofl.

If anything larry scraped everyone(m2k,brood,rain and ally in a mm) and his falco is clearly above rains though rain is def 2nd best so theres no way rain can be in the discussion but not larry. Rain is extremely smart but hes not nearly as technical and abusive as larrys falco. so plz explain cuz larry didnt lose to anyone and his wins were very convincing.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

You can't be the best if you haven't fought the world...?

That's not how it works, in my opinion.

It's based on tourney results, who you've beaten, etc. I don't think you have to beat all other good players to become the best. But that's just my opinion, this is a pretty dumb argument.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Why does this thread keep reminding me of this video?

I remember that. Be thankful that it isn't that extreme. There are some parallels for some reason, like how Olimar isn't seen much outside of Dabuz/Logic over here.

M2K's defeat is just proving DSP's point.

If there will be another apex, this side of the globe should take a better look at Pit, Fox, and Wolf. I don't want a Gamerbee to happen to this community too.

For the matches I'm referring to, check out these vids.

First this happened
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckg0PUizbFQ&feature=related

Then this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh1fzwJeaEI&feature=related

 

[AllyKnight]

I dont think larry would have beaten me in tournament at all, during our mm, I was beating him while trashtalking and laughing. I suck vs Brood and olimar, them saying I am not better than their snakes is only because they know how to fight brood, Isnt rain #1 in japan? then hes obviously not close on being top 8 player in the country, esp after getting 2 stocked and 1 stocked low percent vs me.... lol even SHUGO did 3x better, got me to last stock last hit both games.

Overall, I think Japan are good, but yet again overhyped, no one knew how to fight a smart Olimar because US olimar dont know how to use their pikmen right...

I do believe I suck now, I might drop Snake and just main MK, Snake sucks in the U.S

 

[-Vocal-]

I dont think larry would have beaten me in tournament at all, during our mms, I was beating him while trashtalking and laughing. I suck vs Brood, them saying I am not better than their snakes is only because they know how to fight brood, Isnt rain #1 in japan? then hes obviously not close on being top 8 player in the country, esp after getting 2 stocked and 1 stocked low percent vs me.... lol even SHUGO didnt 3x better, got me to last stock last hit both games.

Overall, I think Japan are good, but yet again overhyped, no one knew how to fight a smart Olimar because US olimar dont know how to use their pikmen right...

I do believe I suck now, I might drop Snake and just main MK, Snake sucks in the U.S

I knew u were gonna keep saying Snake sucks after Apex

Don't sell your soul and become an MK convert.

 

[Silent Beast]

No snake there is on ally's level however I do agree they have about 3 that are either about on or maybe slightly better than razer/hrnut/fatal's level etc.
Japanese interview was after ally played brood iirc where he got *****, Im sure rains opinion wouldve prob changed after ally manhandled him however.

Actually, the interview where they said the bit about Japanese snakes vs. Ally came after the tourney ended.

 

[Nosboss]

This will be my last response on this topic of da bess.

Tournament results? Who you've beaten? Again, this is fine for defining the best using the resources we have on this forum...of North America. M2K definitely has the tournament results and win record to show he's clearly the best...in North America.

This is indeed a dumb argument; you're saying that M2K is the best in the world because he ***** the United States hard. Unless you're saying something else, in which case, please enlighten me.

Now then

You should know that the top players in Japan (of which I hear there are roughly 8) alternate on winning tournaments - there isn't one start and they're all basically on the same level. Calling Brood the best would be to say that those other 7 are the best as well. Not to mention it also means choosing Brood as the best has no argument: if you're going to say that it's because he beat M2K, then you'd have to say Larry is the best because he beat both of them.

I am well aware of this. However, I stated "If I had to pick now". I haven't seen the other Japanese play. I haven't seen the Europeans play. I have, however, seen Rain and Brood play.

Explaining M2K is simple enough; he's destroyed everyone in North America. He wins.

Why am I calling Brood potentially the best? Beating M2K and Ally in the same tournament is one thing, but it's how he won. By the 3rd stock on Game 1, Brood seemed to get a feel for M2K, then read him like a book the rest of the set. You don't get 3 stocked by M2K and then beat him in a best of 5 by accident. Yes M2K probably doesn't know the MU very well, but even outside that set, Brood (and Rain) seemed to be able to adapt and read people at a stupidly alarming rate. At least at a higher rate than I've ever seen anyone in Brawl.

As for Rain, I believe his reading ability is about the same as Brood. I'd say his Falco is around DEHF's; I'm not going to say he's better/worse based on ****ing Falco dittos. Brackets is more solid evidence, but against the set he had against Lee Martin sending him to Loser's, he SD'd once in Game 3 I believe. Going by what happened rather than what could have happened, Rain shouldn't be on the level I'm suggesting. I'll just say he did bad in brackets, but I believe he was one of the people in brackets that had a chance of beating M2K. Just think of it as johning for gnes getting 13th or Anti getting 9th or something.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

This will be my last response on this topic of da bess.

Tournament results? Who you've beaten? Again, this is fine for defining the best using the resources we have on this forum...of North America. M2K definitely has the tournament results and win record to show he's clearly the best...in North America.

This is indeed a dumb argument; you're saying that M2K is the best in the world because he ***** the United States hard. Unless you're saying something else, in which case, please enlighten me.

Go ahead and show me a Japanese player with a track record as impressive as M2K's and I'll be convinced.

 

[KoNfucius]

Go ahead and show me a Japanese player with a track record as impressive as M2K's and I'll be convinced.

i agree

what i dont agree with is us bending the rules for them (i know we did it so they would come, lets just not do it again) would they bend them for us?

 

[-Vocal-]

i agree

what i dont agree with is us bending the rules for them (i know we did it so they would come, lets just not do it again) would they bend them for us?

It would be different. If someone were to ban two of the stages that Japan plays, then they'd only have 1 familiar ground stage left. The same wouldn't be said if one of us went to Japan; we're entirely familiar with all the stages they play on, considering there are only three.

 

[Black Mantis]

America has work to do.

 

[Denzi]

So my opinion on the M2K vs Brood thing is that M2K was simply unfamiliar with the matchup. There are no Olimars that are close to Brood's level, and there's also the difference in playstyles to take into account (the buffering/PSing from Japan). I also remember it said that Brood whistles a lot smarter than most US Olis, which I'm sure helps a lot in avoiding getting gimped, especially combined with his general skill at reading and good reaction time.

You could say the way I look at it is in the same light as back in the NL days, where M2K just did terribly vs Diddy. But since then he's gotten the matchup down and doesn't do nearly as badly. He just needs to learn what tricks work vs Oli (example: the Dair vs Uair thing a few pages back).

Overall I'd still put M2K as the best in the world, especially because he shows much more consistency than a lot of our other top players. It's just that Olimar wasn't an entirely necessary for M2K to be concerned with until now.

I'm also going to say that one of the reasons Larry did so much better in the matchup is because of his matchup knowledge courtesy of Rich Brown, possibly coupled with the fact that Brood was expecting something more like Rain (at the start anyway).

 

[-Vocal-]

So my opinion on the M2K vs Brood thing is that M2K was simply unfamiliar with the matchup. There are no Olimars that are close to Brood's level, and there's also the difference in playstyles to take into account (the buffering/PSing from Japan). I also remember it said that Brood whistles a lot more than US Olis, which I'm sure helps a lot in avoiding getting gimped, especially combined with his skill at reading.

You could say the way I look at it is in the same light as back in the NL days, where M2K just did terribly vs Diddy. But since then he's gotten the matchup down and doesn't do nearly as badly. He just needs to learn what tricks work vs Oli (example: the Dair vs Uair thing a few pages back).

Overall I'd still put M2K as the best in the world, especially because he shows much more consistency than a lot of our other top players. It's just that Olimar wasn't an entirely necessary for M2K to be concerned with until now.

I'm also going to say that one of the reasons Larry did so much better in the matchup is because of his matchup knowledge courtesy of Rich Brown, possibly coupled with the fact that Brood was expecting something more like Rain (at the start anyway).

I will admit that it's very possible that M2K just doesn't know the MU well enough. (It feels weird to say that...)

Brood actually whistles a lot less. Watch him recover and watch American Olimars recover. It's not a criticism at all - we just noticed that he whistles less. Perhaps it's when he chooses to whistle that sticks out.

I agree at putting M2K at best in the world.

I'm also going to say that Larry knows the matchup probably better than any other Falco in America, but he did have some assistance during Apex. I'll leave it there.

 

[Denzi]

Brood actually whistles a lot less. Watch him recover and watch American Olimars recover. It's not a criticism at all - we just noticed that he whistles less. Perhaps it's when he chooses to whistle that sticks out.

Yeah, it must be that he's just excellent at knowing when to time it (the higher PS rate might have something to do with it). I have seen some players that just spam it, and as long as you know when the super armor is active it can be predicted and punished. It would have to be much tougher to deal with someone who only whistles once or twice.

 

[-Vocal-]

Yeah, it must be that he's just excellent at knowing when to time it (the higher PS rate might have something to do with it). I have seen some players that just spam it, and as long as you know when the super armor is active it can be predicted and punished. It would have to be much tougher to deal with someone who only whistles once or twice.

Indeed. He also appears to have a habit of not whistling things he should (and would) during his first stock - he did this against both M2K and Chibo. I'm sure it was on purpose, because in the vs. M2K set he whistles it in the second game as well as the assured followup, which is something that hadn't occurred in the first game so he obviously knew ahead of time. My guess is that he tries to use the whistle as a mind game, to force the opponent into a guessing game of whether he's going to whistle, attack, or simply return to the ground.

 

[Kuraudo]

This world is far too big to truly comprehend who is the best or not.

North America, Asia, Europe, little places that no one knows about...

I say that the best way to improve is to never assume. If you automatically assume and resort to ignorance, blissfully so, your skills and caution to the competition is dulled. Expect ANYTHING. PREPARE for ANYTHING.

Even our top professional players are not at their full potential. Does that mean the Japanese are at the top of it all? No. Because we both differentiate and clash. Playing at your full potential would be to cast aside ignorance and accept limitless possibilities for what the world has to offer. If Mew2King accepted that sooner against Olimar, mayhaps even studied and focused that much more on what to do instead of falling into the weakness of underestimation and ignorance, he could have very well won.

There has been no true World Championship amongst the best of the best. Until then, I find it hard to believe that we can truly conclude who is the best of anything right now. Otherwise we're just using Global Inui logic, as in "If we can beat this guy. We beat everyone else." etc. etc.

That's my two-cents at least. I will never underestimate. I will focus and consider the potential of the world, and fight against it at my very best.

America needs to learn to embrace that mindset if they truly want to take themselves that one step further towards being the most powerful Brawl nation.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Go ahead and show me a Japanese player with a track record as impressive as M2K's and I'll be convinced.

thats a ******** and invalid argument, since how well you do in a competitive game is based around how well the people around you are able to play against you. maybe if m2k was in japan he wouldnt have such an impressive track record, or maybe if one of the top japanese players lived in the us he'd have an even more impressive track record then m2k.
japan could be playing brawl (and 64 and melee for that matter) on a much higher level overall then america for all you know.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

thats a ******** and invalid argument, since how well you do in a competitive game is based around how well the people around you are able to play against you. maybe if m2k was in japan he wouldnt have such an impressive track record, or maybe if one of the top japanese players lived in the us he'd have an even more impressive track record then m2k.

It's pretty clear that Japan and the US are fairly equal in Brawl in terms of how many really good players there are. So I'd say that the people around M2K are around as good the people around the good Japanese players. This is just speculation, go ahead and disprove it if you want.

japan could be playing brawl (and 64 and melee for that matter) on a much higher level overall then america for all you know.

Like I said, unless you SHOW ME EVIDENCE as to why this is true, I'm inclined to believe M2K is the best.

By the way, no need to be a prick and call my argument ********.

 

[Chis]

Why don't you provide evidence showing that M2K is number one in the world? Everytime I see people talk about Japan's metagame they speculate and make generalisations like they don't fully understand their metagame yet.

And hagger made a good point.

We know that M2K is the best in the US, but the world? Pfft.

 

[Neverbound]

America vs. Europe vs. Japan GO!