World>USA in smash?

[Jiffyboob]

So..... I'm just wondering: Does anyone else out there feels like we (the USA) took a big punch to the face after Apex?
U.S. Smash as a whole is fairly cocky. I know many of us thought we had a superior metagame to everyone around the world. We knew that the Japanese would be decent. They proved to be excellent. We slept on Europe in melee and now they're showing us they are not weak in brawl either.

Point is: we got exposed as being more bark than bite. I hope if anything this spurs all of us to put aside the bickering and petty BS for a while and actually concentrate on improving.

I'm not really sure how much discussion this thread will get as it is just me basically venting a bit. Kinda sounds like a pep talk after reading it over again.

 

[Strong Badam]

looks to me like #1 spot in the results are still USA

 

[RedyBz]

U.S.A have to be biased for thinking he is the best at Smash.

Larry may have won against BROOD but that doesn't mean USA>JAPAN or whatever country.

What if BROOD was just some top 10-20++ in Japan? IF so imagine how strong the top 3 are?

That's no surprise USA won first since the tourney was hosted in USA.

 

[JOE!]

That's no surprise USA won first since the tourney was hosted in USA.

that argument can be made for every country, no?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Mewtwo king didn't do so well in that MU. He got nervous and started doing stupid things, like being predictiable with shuttle loops, etc... You also have to remember that beating the top player doesn't mean you're automatically better than the rest. The metagame of Brawl is completely non-linear. Think of the Pokemon starters. The fire one beats the grass, grass beats water, water beats fire. Sometimes players happen to act like this. Some people like M2K just don't do well against Diddy Kong, but others do great. Then those people that do well against Diddys, may do horribly agasint people like M2K.

 

[X-FACTOR]

Nah, Dawg! America still the bess!

 

[RedyBz]

that argument can be made for every country, no?

I didn't say otherwise, what's your point? Mine was just because USA won a tourney in his own country, doesn't mean usa> the world like some try to claim since 90%+ of the players are probably from U.S.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Remember, Brood got 2-0'd by Chibo. That aside, The Japanese did roughly as well as I expected. Brood obviously went above and beyond, but it was clear pretty early on we don't have an Olimar in the US on his caliber, which makes for pretty likely upsets. Olimar as a character I think has been exposed now as being supremely underrated. He got a bad rap early in the US metagame because, and only because of, his recovery. People thought it was to easy to gimp, but I think is apparent now with good DI his recovery isn't a huge liability, which leaves him with combos, one of the best grabs, one of the best projectiles, and one of the best upwardly hitting KO moves. Combine that with little cool down and you got a great character that has been overlooked by the US scene for a long time.

I forget who it was, but someone after Pound 4 mentioned Logic placing 7th and more or less said "I wish we could have seen his matches, I feel like there is more to this character". That person was right.

 

[-Vocal-]

I've heard foreigners say this for a long time. I'm kind of starting to wonder if it actually is true O_o

Remember, Brood got 2-0'd by Chibo. That aside, The Japanese did roughly as well as I expected. Brood obviously went above and beyond, but it was clear pretty early on we don't have an Olimar in the US on his caliber, which makes for pretty likely upsets. Olimar as a character I think has been exposed now as being supremely underrated. He got a bad rap early in the US metagame because, and only because of, his recovery. People thought it was to easy to gimp, but I think is apparent now with good DI his recovery isn't a huge liability, which leaves him with combos, one of the best grabs, one of the best projectiles, and one of the best upwardly hitting KO moves. Combine that with little cool down and you got a great character that has been overlooked by the US scene for a long time.

I forget who it was, but someone after Pound 4 mentioned Logic placing 7th and more or less said "I wish we could have seen his matches, I feel like there is more to this character". That person was right.

Everyone still thinks that Chibo really 2-0ed Brood playing his best? I would bet any money that Brood wasn't really trying. This statement isn't biased at all. Considering the amazing things we've seen Brood do, I find it extremely hard to believe that his hardest mu is ROB. (Harder than Falco? Really?)

And they may have been right, but it wasn't because of Logic exactly. Brood has played the character in a way that no American Olimar player has even thought of until we saw him. We're all agreed - Brood has far outclassed us in technical skill - and no it's not just me (a nobody, for now) but this is Rich and Logic too. (Dabuz is saltier than a Pringle, however.)

 

[CT Chia]

Remember, Brood got 2-0'd by Chibo. That aside, The Japanese did roughly as well as I expected. Brood obviously went above and beyond, but it was clear pretty early on we don't have an Olimar in the US on his caliber, which makes for pretty likely upsets. Olimar as a character I think has been exposed now as being supremely underrated. He got a bad rap early in the US metagame because, and only because of, his recovery. People thought it was to easy to gimp, but I think is apparent now with good DI his recovery isn't a huge liability, which leaves him with combos, one of the best grabs, one of the best projectiles, and one of the best upwardly hitting KO moves. Combine that with little cool down and you got a great character that has been overlooked by the US scene for a long time.

I forget who it was, but someone after Pound 4 mentioned Logic placing 7th and more or less said "I wish we could have seen his matches, I feel like there is more to this character". That person was right.

I'm not sure if I think Brood is the best Olimar or not. Tbh I'm thinking it's more like Dabuz, but the playstyles are massively different. Fortunately Brood's style was quite easy for me and ROB tbh compared to Olimars like Rich Brown and Dabuz. However, Broods offensive game is amazing and on point, and his best skill by far (especially compared to other Olimars) is his ability to adapt to his opponent and have amazing reads. It's a little hard to explain what needs to be done to take Brood down, but you can see it best in M2K's first match vs him and my matches vs him when they're up tonight. He actually plays fairly unsafe using his double jump a bit too often when not needed, etc however a lot of what he does is a trade off for more offensive capabilities, which is why we see a lot of insane damage racking combos from him. Camping him back really doesn't work, which M2K did more and more of as the set went on. You really need to drive him off stage and read his offstage game well. He doesn't do a lot of things like boost pivot grabbing (didn't see him do a single one vs me and M2K) and stuff which makes it a tad easier imo.

Everyone still thinks that Chibo really 2-0ed Brood playing his best? I would bet any money that Brood wasn't really trying. This statement isn't biased at all. Considering the amazing things we've seen Brood do, I find it extremely hard to believe that his hardest mu is ROB. (Harder than Falco? Really?)

And they may have been right, but it wasn't because of Logic exactly. Brood has played the character in a way that no American Olimar player has even thought of until we saw him. We're all agreed - Brood has far outclassed us in technical skill - and no it's not just me (a nobody, for now) but this is Rich and Logic too. (Dabuz is saltier than a Pringle, however.)

What would be Brood's motive for sandbagging? I can not see Japanese players traveling across the world and spending a lot of money to sandbag in tournament matches. They also knew me (so they didn't think I was a random or anything). When I first met them on Friday they mentioned that they knew who I am and were glad to meet me.

I do not understand how no one else thinks that Brood only chose to lose to Chibo ;-;

Am I really the only one?

I'll have vids up tonight.

Is Kadaj another ROB player? And did he just face him in pools?

Hm. Maybe he does have a ROB weakness. Fino DID mention that he wasn't camping Chibo that hard, maybe it's not generally how he plays things and ROB doesn't fall into his ordinary traps...

Then again, maybe he was just sandbagging. It's hard to tell, simply because it'd be hard to believe that such an amazing player would have such a weakness to ROB, of all characters.

The only people that beat Brood were me 2-0ing him in r1 pools, Anti 2-0ing him in r2 pools, and DEHF beating him twice in brackets 3-1.

Kadaj is a Marth main.

 

[-Vocal-]

I'm not sure if I think Brood is the best Olimar or not. Tbh I'm thinking it's more like Dabuz, but the playstyles are massively different. Fortunately Brood's style was quite easy for me and ROB tbh compared to Olimars like Rich Brown and Dabuz. However, Broods offensive game is amazing and on point, and his best skill by far (especially compared to other Olimars) is his ability to adapt to his opponent and have amazing reads. It's a little hard to explain what needs to be done to take Brood down, but you can see it best in M2K's first match vs him and my matches vs him when they're up tonight. He actually plays fairly unsafe using his double jump a bit too often when not needed, etc however a lot of what he does is a trade off for more offensive capabilities, which is why we see a lot of insane damage racking combos from him. Camping him back really doesn't work, which M2K did more and more of as the set went on. You really need to drive him off stage and read his offstage game well. He doesn't do a lot of things like boost pivot grabbing (didn't see him do a single one vs me and M2K) and stuff which makes it a tad easier imo.

First off, he knows how to boost pivot grab; here's a video of him doing it in May 2009. Probably just found better alternatives since then. Which leads me to my next point.

You forgot one incredibly important thing that makes Brood's Olimar better than any American Olimar: he buffers EVERYTHING. And that statement isn't far from being true. You can even see it in that video from 2009 I just linked - he buffers from smash, from spot dodges, even from pikmin throws. He buffers everything, which makes his Olimar a lot faster and a lot more lethal. Every Olimar in North America has acknowledged that Brood is better (except Dabuz won't because he's mad salty with pride and stuff) so if they say it, you should trust the experts who know the character best. I'm talking Rich Brown and Logic, others as well but those are the two most recognizable.

What would be Brood's motive for sandbagging? I can not see Japanese players traveling across the world and spending a lot of money to sandbag in tournament matches. They also knew me (so they didn't think I was a random or anything). When I first met them on Friday they mentioned that they knew who I am and were glad to meet me.

I'll have vids up tonight.

The only people that beat Brood were me 2-0ing him in r1 pools, Anti 2-0ing him in r2 pools, and DEHF beating him twice in brackets 3-1.

Kadaj is a Marth main.

The point would be to take a break, geez. Example: even though Rain's Falco is miles ahead of his MK, he would routinely switch to Metaknight during the second game of a pools match. Why? To conserve energy. Furthermore, if Brood already knew he was getting out of pools, I find it most likely that he took his games with you as a scouting opportunity - to see how you play and what your habits are. From what Logic and Fino have told me of the match, it sounded like he was experimenting with different playstyles against you, which makes it even more likely that it was more about feeling you out (or maybe just America in general, who knows) than going all out.

So what's the point? He made it out of pools, didn't he? And he beat the one that mattered - M2K.

And as for my "feeling out" theory, just look at what happened against M2K. The first game it looked like he was going to get absolutely wrecked for the whole set and then everyone was shocked when he came back from it like a madman in the second game. Did he learn the mu that quick? No, since it's obvious he already knows the MK mu. He used it to feel him out, and proceded to read about half of his game from there on out.

And one last point for it: you should notice that he only made those dumb mistakes early in the set, as in game one against M2K. This could have been to make M2K underestimate him or perhaps it was to see what he would do under those circumstances. At any rate, he definitely was not making rooky mistakes when he got serious.

If every North American Olimar (minus a salty Dabuz) can admit that he is better than all of us, then you should take notice and listen. Believe me, we hated on him SOOOOOOOO much and for as LONG as possible, but then Singles happened and he made a believer out of every single one of us.

Spoiler

Minus, once again, salty Dabuz.

Oh, closing notes: we did have two slight criticisms though. When offstage, he uses whistle a lot less than usual, but that is probably a style preference. The other was that he never punished Falco's Illusion with Utilt/Nair, which leads us to think that he may not know they clash. (Also possible that it's not relevant to the Oli v. Falco MU in Japan, but we'd have to have extensive knowledge of their metagame evolution to know that >.>

edit: btw, here's Game Two. Now watch that match and tell me again that Brood does not boost pivot grab

 

[evileric]

very nice input, i have to say

 

[CT Chia]

Why is Vocal so salty about everything lol

 

[Mew2King]

: /

 

[Praxis]

I was there for the interview with the Japanese. The undersanding I gleaned was that they don't really have a top player; they have about 8-9 top players that can switch off at any tournament, Brood and Rain included in that class.

I feel their top players are in a similar class to ours, no more. They might have more than us at that peak though? Dunno.

 

[Tiersie]

You guys forget to take into account that Glutonny (European player) beat Ally in multiple sets the week before apex. Furtherly implying that the rest of the world really is catching up.

 

[Mew2King]

i did underestimate, but that is not a good john. Getting in is hard. Ground game/air dodge gets grabbed. Tornado gets blocked and punished. Dairs don't do anything. Any ideas?

 

[AvaricePanda]

@anyone who says brood was "feeling out" M2K game 1:

That makes no sense. Brood got destroyed game 1, and the only habits you find when you get 3-stocked like that is that your opponent's good at winning. If you want to find your opponent's habits, you have to play a close set so you know what they like to do in various situations. Getting low-percent 3-stocked is not how to read your opponent.

Instead, I think it was Brood's impeccable ability to adapt that won him the set.

 

[Mr.-0]

Is m2K asking for advice? He said, any ideas... I think that counts. And for Gluttony, I think Ally plays at his top level less than Isai did in melee. He only ever really brings it out I think is against M2K. But, seeing apex, maybe he's just not as good anymore.

 

[TKD]

Ally is great. M2K is great. I think Ally can beat M2K with a proper rule-set. I think M2K can beat Brood even WITH a proper rule-set, even though he had eight minutes/win by time-out/rainbow cruise & brinstar. I don't think your community is so united to consider best players = the country. It's more like best players = best players. As for great players, there are several in North America, several in Japan, several in Europe, a couple in Mexico...the only thing is that most or around half of the U.S.'s best players play one character and that said character is broken with your most popular rule-set.

To Mew2King: Meta Knight's dair hits through Olimar's uair. If he air-jump uairs to the stage, you gimp him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Japan is the strongest Nation in Brawl.

I've been talking about this with JJWolf and TKD before and we all aknowledged that Japan has the best Brawl players. This has nothing - or very little - to do with how well Brood performed at Apex because we all shared this opinion before Apex. If anything proves the strength of Japan in Brawl it's Sweet Pea's placing at Apex. Nobody I have talked to - all people that, like myself, have extensively concerned themselves with japanese Brawl - have ever heard of him before. From what I've heard on the stream and from people who played him he's playing Meta Knight but in Japan he is probably considered a "random". Ask around for japanese MK players and the names you will hear first are the likes of Akira, Ootori, L, Eru or Shikkoku.

Sweet Pea? Never heard of him before. And yet he is able to tie at Apex with the likes of Gnes (considered 2nd best US Diddy) and Malcolm (top 3 Wario in the US) beating the likes of MintyFlesh (top 5 Marth) and Logic (top 3 Olimar) in the process.

Brood. After Apex there is no doubt that he is the best Olimar in the world. He places 2nd/266 in Brawl singles being only the 2nd player in the history of Brawl to beat Ally and M2K at the same tourney. One thing people didn't seem to take note of yet:
He doesn't do as well at Japanese tourneys.
He never places above 3rd in Japan and even then he placing 3rd is a considerable achievment for him. Just to be clear: these are not "national" tournaments with the size of Apex - they never have 266 entrants. These are medium sized tournaments of about 50 players, which is not even a quarter of the Apex attendance. And he still is unable to make a showing there in the way he does at Apex.

Keep in mind that during all that, Brood had to deal with an unfair ruleset (uncompetitive stages like Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise, only 8 minute timer), that they were not used to. In Japan the stages favour Olimar a lot more than in the US but that also didn't keep him from doing better than he does in "random" japanese tourneys.

In several cases japanese players are the best in the world with their characers:
Smasher for Toon Link
Brood for Olimar
Ocean for ROB
Kakera for Ice Climbers
Masashi for Pit
Earth for Sheik (Jujux might be a better Zelda though)

Even if an american player (or european player in case of Glutonny) is considered the #1 for a character there are often one or more japanese players close behind. Mew2King is clearly the best Meta Knight but after that there's at least 3 MKs that give the US Top MKs (which are Lee, Anti and Tyrant atm) a run for their money, Akira being probably better than all of them (except M2K himself).
Dehf has established himself as the best Falco but not only is Rain close behind but he also leaves the rest of the Falco's far behind too. The best example for this however is without a doubt Snake: Ally is still the best Snake even though he might have hit a "low" now. After that: all japanese; Shuu, Souther, Hiko, Shuya - these people are probably all as good, if not better than the next best US Snake.

Japan has so many great unknown players, it's as if they had no "random" players because they are all great at powershielding and buffering - something only the top players in the US or the EU do.

Edit: despite all this I still think M2K is the best player in the world in Brawl.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think it's time we acknowledge the possibility that we are not the end-all tome of character knowledge in regards to character metas. The best Olimar in the world just came to the US and showed us what's what. We had no idea Olimar was capable of doing any of that, but here we are.

Japan has Pit ranked #5 for instance. We don't have any Pit players doing well here in America but clearly something is different in Japan so perhaps we ought to study their Pit players a little bit. This is just an example, I'm sure there are other characters as well. And "they're Japanese, their metagame is completely different or invalid" isn't a valid anymore (and really never was).

I wish this language barrier wasn't there, because clearly we have a lot to learn from each other.

 

[Laem]

well to quote ally

europe = usa in skill
usa > europe in amount of players

honestly, could go either way with japan
either = europe = usa in skill or perhaps even better, as good sir mister gheb truly believes?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

either = europe = usa in skill or perhaps even better, as good sir mister gheb truly believes?

What? Both Japan and North America are clearly better than Europe in my eyes.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

i did underestimate, but that is not a good john. Getting in is hard. Ground game/air dodge gets grabbed. Tornado gets blocked and punished. Dairs don't do anything. Any ideas?

Based on the fact that you had to take him to stages that heavily favor MK in order to win (minus the first match when you wrecked him), that shows that Brood is a more skillful player than you. Even with the gayness of sharking, timing out, Nados, dair etc, he still won.

Two ways to overcome this:

Choose a different character.

or

Get better. Since you are already the best MK player in the states, and if you refuse to choose another character, you must rethink your style vs Brood.


Best of luck.





Id love to see a couple of US players go to a large Japanese tournament to see how they do since the Japanese rules seem to favor who is more skillful than who can CP a really bad stage or time out their opponent. They pretty much just play on neutrals right?

I wonder if thats why the Japanese are so good? They cant rely on some auto-win rules, they must face their opponents fairly and improve on their weaknesses.

 

[cutter]

Why does this thread keep reminding me of this video?

Also, I don't want to feel stupid, but what exactly is sharking? I know planking and scrooging, but sharking sounds like another gay MK tactic lol. I've been a bit out of the loop.

 

[-Vocal-]

Long post incoming

Why is Vocal so salty about everything lol

Chibo, I'm not salty, I'm being a realist. Salty was when I was hating on Brood for the two days leading up to singles. Realistic is where I am now - not a fanboy, I'm looking at the evidence. (Look further below for some of that evidence.)

: /

I wish I could know what was in here orginally

I was there for the interview with the Japanese. The undersanding I gleaned was that they don't really have a top player; they have about 8-9 top players that can switch off at any tournament, Brood and Rain included in that class.

I feel their top players are in a similar class to ours, no more. They might have more than us at that peak though? Dunno.

That's how I always figured it was. Makes sense too; if you have a handful of great characters in the game and great players play them, it only makes sense that the top spot will commonly go to whoever plays best that day. I like that thought a lot.

i did underestimate, but that is not a good john. Getting in is hard. Ground game/air dodge gets grabbed. Tornado gets blocked and punished. Dairs don't do anything. Any ideas?

THIS IS WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO TELL EVERYONE. Game 1, Brood let M2K think he knew how to beat him. Game 2, Brood showed him everything he just thought was a lie AND M2K WAS AT A LOSS FOR WHAT TO DO NEXT. That's the reason M2K had to back off. I'm glad the man himself said it because none of you seem to realize this on your own. (You're awesome, btw, even if you do play MK ) Read next response for a more in depth analysis.

@anyone who says brood was "feeling out" M2K game 1:

That makes no sense. Brood got destroyed game 1, and the only habits you find when you get 3-stocked like that is that your opponent's good at winning. If you want to find your opponent's habits, you have to play a close set so you know what they like to do in various situations. Getting low-percent 3-stocked is not how to read your opponent.

Instead, I think it was Brood's impeccable ability to adapt that won him the set.

Here's a quote of a response I gave breaking down just how differently Brood played during Game One. Here is a link to Game One, so you can observe things for yourself.

That only happened after Brood changed - don't underestimate the effect that had on M2K

edit: Here, look at Game Two. I've only been watching the first segment of it and the difference is already showing itself.

M2K goes for a dtilt off the ledge to lead to a gimp - just like he did in Game One. Excpet this time it doesn't work.

As far as I can see, M2K is playing pretty aggro and trying to get those gimps in, just like the first game. The only thing that appears to have changed is what Brood is doing about it.

edit2: @about :55, Brood whistles a SL from M2K, and you all think he wasn't bringing less than his A game during Game One when he got juggled by Uair? I don't think there's much denying this.

edit3: During Game One in the very beginning, Brood uses a grounded tether, which any player with sense who has played the character longer than a week can tell you is just begging for punishment. Brood would NOT do this without a reason - my guess is that he wanted to scope out M2K's punishing habits.

edit4: Look at 3:33. Brood whistles both a uair and the immediately following dair. In the exact same spot he got juggled with one during Game One. And you would still insist that he wasn't sandbagging? No sir. Even if you could say that he adapted, it would not explain him also whistling the dair that followed. And he definitely wasn't just randomly mashing whistle - Brood uses it sparingly as it is.

edit5: I don't need to explain anymore. You can plainly see that M2K was playing the beginning of this game JUST as aggressively as the first, and the reason he changed IS BECAUSE BROOD STARTED PLAYING FOR REAL AND SHOWED HIM THAT WASN'T GONNA FLY.

In addition, here is a collection of quotes doing the same thing (to a lesser extent) with his set vs. Chibo. Here is the video link.

I've already watched enough to see that Brood wasn't playing his usual style. A huge giveaway was how he ran in to Chibo and shielded at 1:20 - he just doesn't do that. I'm sticking with my theory that he was just testing different playstyles on an American Smasher.

You can also look at how he plucks pikmin. In matches where he's going all out, he picks his pikmin in a more sporadic manner, as in he plucks a pikmin, dashes somewhere else, plucks another, etc. I've noticed in all of the games where he lost that he just plucked pikmin in place. I'm not 100% on if this is a pattern in all of his videos, but it appears to be so far.

He also died to an obvious bair at 1:45 that even a rookie Olimar could have whistled. He was sandbagging.

I kept on watching this Chibo v. Brood set. People really think he wasn't sandbagging? He makes so many rookie mistakes it's almost a joke reel. Brood doesn't make this many mistakes (like shooting a tether as soon as Chibo came back on screen, very far out of range).

edit: Ok, last note I'm gonna make to prove this. @3:25, Brood grabs Chibo with a purple pikmin and Chibo is at 129%. His Uthrow was entirely fresh. PURPLE UTHROW WOULD HAVE WON HIM THE GAME, PERIOD. Watch the video. He pauses, realizes this, and Dthrows instead.

I don't want to hear anyone assert that Brood wasn't sandbagging.

Please, after reading these and looking at the videos for yourself, please tell me that you still think Brood wasn't sandbagging. I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my ***; it's all there in the videos ^_^

Ally is great. M2K is great. I think Ally can beat M2K with a proper rule-set. I think M2K can beat Brood even WITH a proper rule-set, even though he had eight minutes/win by time-out/rainbow cruise & brinstar. I don't think your community is so united to consider best players = the country. It's more like best players = best players. As for great players, there are several in North America, several in Japan, several in Europe, a couple in Mexico...the only thing is that most or around half of the U.S.'s best players play one character and that said character is broken with your most popular rule-set.
King Funk made a post earlier about Europe's ruleset, and I do have to say that their stagelist favors combat skill much more than stage use skill. I kinda think that's a good thing, but that's a debate for another day.
To Mew2King: Meta Knight's dair hits through Olimar's uair. If he air-jump uairs to the stage, you gimp him.

Yes, if you are at the proper angle, and many Olimars have lost their stocks this way. Didn't you know this, M2K?

Japan is the strongest Nation in Brawl.

I've been talking about this with JJWolf and TKD before and we all aknowledged that Japan has the best Brawl players. This has nothing - or very little - to do with how well Brood performed at Apex because we all shared this opinion before Apex. If anything proves the strength of Japan in Brawl it's Sweet Pea's placing at Apex. Nobody I have talked to - all people that, like myself, have extensively concerned themselves with japanese Brawl - have ever heard of him before. From what I've heard on the stream and from people who played him he's playing Meta Knight but in Japan he is probably considered a "random". Ask around for japanese MK players and the names you will hear first are the likes of Akira, Ootori, L, Eru or Shikkoku.

Sweet Pea? Never heard of him before. And yet he is able to tie at Apex with the likes of Gnes (considered 2nd best US Diddy) and Malcolm (top 3 Wario in the US) beating the likes of MintyFlesh (top 5 Marth) and Logic (top 3 Olimar) in the process.

Brood. After Apex there is no doubt that he is the best Olimar in the world. He places 2nd/266 in Brawl singles being only the 2nd player in the history of Brawl to beat Ally and M2K at the same tourney. One thing people didn't seem to take note of yet:
He doesn't do as well at Japanese tourneys.
He never places above 3rd in Japan and even then he placing 3rd is a considerable achievment for him. Just to be clear: these are not "national" tournaments with the size of Apex - they never have 266 entrants. These are medium sized tournaments of about 50 players, which is not even a quarter of the Apex attendance. And he still is unable to make a showing there in the way he does at Apex.

Keep in mind that during all that, Brood had to deal with an unfair ruleset (uncompetitive stages like Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise, only 8 minute timer), that they were not used to. In Japan the stages favour Olimar a lot more than in the US but that also didn't keep him from doing better than he does in "random" japanese tourneys.

In several cases japanese players are the best in the world with their characers:
Smasher for Toon Link
Brood for Olimar
Ocean for ROB
Kakera for Ice Climbers
Masashi for Pit
Earth for Sheik (Jujux might be a better Zelda though)

Even if an american player (or european player in case of Glutonny) is considered the #1 for a character there are often one or more japanese players close behind. Mew2King is clearly the best Meta Knight but after that there's at least 3 MKs that give the US Top MKs (which are Lee, Anti and Tyrant atm) a run for their money, Akira being probably better than all of them (except M2K himself).
Dehf has established himself as the best Falco but not only is Rain close behind but he also leaves the rest of the Falco's far behind too. The best example for this however is without a doubt Snake: Ally is still the best Snake even though he might have hit a "low" now. After that: all japanese; Shuu, Souther, Hiko, Shuya - these people are probably all as good, if not better than the next best US Snake.

Japan has so many great unknown players, it's as if they had no "random" players because they are all great at powershielding and buffering - something only the top players in the US or the EU do.

Edit: despite all this I still think M2K is the best player in the world in Brawl.

I agree with everything you say here. Japan is just miles ahead of us in tech skill, and anything that we do they probably did a year earlier :/

Based on the fact that you had to take him to stages that heavily favor MK in order to win (minus the first match when you wrecked him), that shows that Brood is a more skillful player than you. Even with the gayness of sharking, timing out, Nados, dair etc, he still won.

Two ways to overcome this:

Choose a different character.

or

Get better. Since you are already the best MK player in the states, and if you refuse to choose another character, you must rethink your style vs Brood.


Best of luck.





Id love to see a couple of US players go to a large Japanese tournament to see how they do since the Japanese rules seem to favor who is more skillful than who can CP a really bad stage or time out their opponent. They pretty much just play on neutrals right?

I wonder if thats why the Japanese are so good? They cant rely on some auto-win rules, they must face their opponents fairly and improve on their weaknesses.

Here, here. Gay stages are gay; combat should be the focus. We see just how great players have been molded by Japan's extremely small stagelist, and while I don't think ours should be that small it should be an indication that some of our wilder counterpicks aren't necessary.

Why does this thread keep reminding me of this video?

Also, I don't want to feel stupid, but what exactly is sharking? I know planking and scrooging, but sharking sounds like another gay MK tactic lol. I've been a bit out of the loop.

Sharking occurs on stages where you can rise through the bottom of the main platform (like Delfino) and Metaknights abuse their fives jumps to use this feature; they generally make it a guessing game as to whether they will Uair, Tornado, or SL.

 

[Silent Beast]

Nobody I have talked to - all people that, like myself, have extensively concerned themselves with japanese Brawl - have ever heard of [Sweet Pea] before.

Hm, that's a bit curious. I thought Sweet Pea told me that he often places 3rd behind Rain (1st) and Brood (2nd). I suppose either a lot of Japanese tournament results go unposted (though there aren't very many of them, compared to the US, in the first place), or I just misinterpreted what Sweet Pea said, and he actually just meant that he usually places behind Brood, who usually places behind Rain.

From what I've heard on the stream and from people who played him he's playing Meta Knight but in Japan he is probably considered a "random". Ask around for japanese MK players and the names you will hear first are the likes of Akira, Ootori, L, Eru or Shikkoku.

Sweet Pea also plays Diddy.

Brood. After Apex there is no doubt that he is the best Olimar in the world.

Rain told me that the consensus in Japan is that Nietono, not Brood, is the best Olimar. I asked him about that again, after the tourney ended, and he reiterated that Nietono is considered the best Olimar.

He places 2nd/266 in Brawl singles being only the 2nd player in the history of Brawl to beat Ally and M2K at the same tourney. One thing people didn't seem to take note of yet:
He doesn't do as well at Japanese tourneys.
He never places above 3rd in Japan and even then he placing 3rd is a considerable achievment for him. Just to be clear: these are not "national" tournaments with the size of Apex - they never have 266 entrants. These are medium sized tournaments of about 50 players, which is not even a quarter of the Apex attendance. And he still is unable to make a showing there in the way he does at Apex.

Mew2King is clearly the best Meta Knight but after that there's at least 3 MKs that give the US Top MKs (which are Lee, Anti and Tyrant atm) a run for their money, Akira being probably better than all of them (except M2K himself).

Idk, during their interviews, the Japanese said they were very impressed by the level of US MKs, which, to me, combined with what Sweet Pea said about Pit (see my reply to SFP below), implies that there are more and better MKs in North America.

Ally is still the best Snake even though he might have hit a "low" now. After that: all japanese; Shuu, Souther, Hiko, Shuya - these people are probably all as good, if not better than the next best US Snake.

During the interview, the Japanese actually said they thought Japanese Snakes were above Ally's level (after hearing that, M2K said Ally wasn't playing his best at Apex, but I'm not sure if that was relayed to the Japanese, or if it would've changed their opinions).

Japan has Pit ranked #5 for instance. We don't have any Pit players doing well here in America but clearly something is different in Japan so perhaps we ought to study their Pit players a little bit. This is just an example, I'm sure there are other characters as well.

I wish this language barrier wasn't there, because clearly we have a lot to learn from each other.

Regarding Pit, I mentioned the dissenting American-Japanese opinions on Pit to Sweet Pea, and he thought that it was possible that the Japanese think he's a lot better than Americans do because Japan doesn't have as many top MKs. Rain also suggested during the interview that they may reconsider Pit's placement.

 

[Praxis]

The Japanese interview made it VERY clear that their MK's don't compare to ours.
*cough*probablywhyPitdoessowell*cough*

 

[-Vocal-]

The Japanese interview made it VERY clear that their MK's don't compare to ours.
*cough*probablywhyPitdoessowell*cough*

You know, this actually makes a lot of sense. A lot of the good players here realized MK was the best and so focused all of their energy on expanding his metagame as far as possible, and M2K's genius mind had a lot to do with this progress, as others learned things from him and became better as a result.

So why do Japan's best players choose not to play the best? Perhaps there is less honor in it. Or maybe they didn't have M2K to lead the way; who knows.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

americans are always stupidly biased towards themselves and think of america as the center of the world, not just in smash. you're all raised to be patriotic *******.

 

[-Vocal-]

americans are always stupidly biased towards themselves and think of america as the center of the world, not just in smash. you're all raised to be patriotic *******.

You just called an entire nation of people biased idiots.

I'm insulted. You can say that about many Americans, but not all, and I take great offense to that statement.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'm insulted.

This makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Per stages: Am I the only one who remembers that Plank started the planking wave on BATTLEFIELD? That DEHF lost to Dojo by time out at Genesis on SMASHVILLE? That M2K scrooged his way to victory versus Gnes on SMASHVILLE?

These stages are not immune to "uncompetitive" tactics, not by a long shot. There are far more instances of Smashville being the most "uncompetitive" stage in the game than you will ever find of Brinstar.

americans are always stupidly biased towards themselves and think of america as the center of the world, not just in smash. you're all raised to be patriotic *******.

This is not true! In America we readily admit that we are terrible at Soccer (the worlds "football").

 

[-Vocal-]

Per stages: Am I the only one who remembers that Plank started the planking wave on BATTLEFIELD? That DEHF lost to Dojo by time out at Genesis on SMASHVILLE? That M2K scrooged his way to victory versus Gnes on SMASHVILLE?

These stages are not immune to "uncompetitive" tactics, not by a long shot. There are far more instances of Smashville being the most "uncompetitive" stage in the game than you will ever find of Brinstar.

I can't help but notice every single example you presented to us was perpetrated by a Metaknight, and that leads me to place less faith in your post. It is not a problem with the stages - it is a problem with the character. This said, I invite you to make a revision of your post in a new post with new examples that do not include Metaknight.

 

[Praxis]

You just called an entire nation of people biased idiots.

I'm insulted. You can say that about many Americans, but not all, and I take great offense to that statement.

As an American who has spent about four years total overseas and speaks three languages...

Americans are biased idiots.

We are, on average, significantly more ignorant than the rest of the world.


Vocal, @ your last post to AlphaZealot...why does it matter that it was perpetrated by a Metaknight?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hm, that's a bit curious. I thought Sweet Pea told me that he often places 3rd behind Rain (1st) and Brood (2nd). I suppose either a lot of Japanese tournament results go unposted (though there aren't very many of them, compared to the US, in the first place), or I just misinterpreted what Sweet Pea said, and he actually just meant that he usually places behind Brood, who usually places behind Rain.

Of course, it's impossible for us to tell exactly what the scene in Japan is like. Not only are there language issues like that but Japan is also a big country with lots of big cities. Some players may not go to the same tournaments, some tourney results might go unnoticed too, especially if nothing is being recorded. It's probably hard to make accurate comparisions like that. They also don't have as many tournaments as the US does and if they miss a monthly tournament they're "off the scene" already.

In Sweet Pea's case it might be the case that he just got better recently but in either case their results are harder for us to keep track of.

Rain told me that the consensus in Japan is that Nietono, not Brood, is the best Olimar. I asked him about that again, after the tourney ended, and he reiterated that Nietono is considered the best Olimar.

Scary

Idk, during their interviews, the Japanese said they were very impressed by the level of US MKs, which, to me, combined with what Sweet Pea said about Pit (see my reply to SFP below), implies that there are more and better MKs in North America.

I'm sure there are more MKs in the USA but better one's I'm not sure. If japanese Snake's are truly better than Ally then you have to remember that these Snake's lose to Akira at the very least (but also to Ootori), which would imply that his MK is on a level that is close to that of M2K or at least Tyrant and Anti.

Brood also lost to japanese MKs like L or Eru but he might not have been as good then as he is now.

During the interview, the Japanese actually said they thought Japanese Snakes were above Ally's level (after hearing that, M2K said Ally wasn't playing his best at Apex, but I'm not sure if that was relayed to the Japanese, or if it would've changed their opinions).

I'm unsure about it. I don't think they are actually better than Ally though. Not if he's playing at his best. Too many specifics like match-up knowledge involved but he looks stronger against MK than japanese Snakes do imo.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I can't help but notice every single example you presented to us was perpetrated by a Metaknight, and that leads me to place less faith in your post. It is not a problem with the stages - it is a problem with the character. This said, I invite you to make a revision of your post in a new post with new examples that do not include Metaknight.

Thanks for proving my point for me. The problem isn't with Rainbow Cruise. It isn't with Brinstar. These stages aren't "uncompetitive". The problem is with Meta Knight.

 

[-Vocal-]

As an American who has spent about four years total overseas and speaks three languages...

Americans are biased idiots.

We are, on average, significantly more ignorant than the rest of the world.


Vocal, @ your last post to AlphaZealot...why does it matter that it was perpetrated by a Metaknight?

On average, but not everyone, which is why it was insulting.

And it matters because our stagelist should not be molded to combat an overpowered character.

Thanks for proving my point for me. The problem isn't with Rainbow Cruise. It isn't with Brinstar. These stages aren't "uncompetitive". The problem is with Meta Knight.

Metaknight is not the only problem. (Random question, is it actually Metaknight or Meta Knight? I feel like it's the first since it's his name.) Those stages cause the focus of competitiveness to shift from "Who is better at character v. character combat" to "Who is better at character v. character combat multiplied by who is better at taking advantage of the stage." This is not something that can be classified as right or wrong - here we reach a point where we are attempting to answer the very opinion-based, subjective question of "What should competitive Brawl be focused on."

 

[Kitamerby]

"Meta Knight" is two words in all official Nintendo documents, but nobody really cares how you spell it.

Also America is full of biased idiots AND I LOVE IT THAT WAY.