Will we have Smash Ball activated as an item in the pro/competitive scene?

[BentoBox]

For me they looking complete random, like the Unknows in Melee, only that you can attack, shield, dodge them and there are not so many in one direction. The point of the balance are not only the Ultra-Smashs them self, its also how to get the Smash-Ball, stop your opponet to get them and steal them form your enemy, etc. ... there some important non-luck steps even before using the ultra-smashs.

No, they were not random.
So to you, the 20seconds during which the players will fight for the ball should be enough as a deciding factor as to who shall go back home with a golden trophee? This isn't what smash should be about.

I read something about it too. Meta-Knight got an instance Kill ... but only if he gets you! You can dodge him!

Or he could combo you into his FS?

You can use a Ultra-Smash just ONCE in a Match. A Match will not only all about getting a ultra-smash, it will a part of it. You could loss one of your stocks, not all, and even than you also can use your Ultra-Smash. When you make a mistake by using yours, its your fail. If you cant get the smash-ball becauce of your oppponet, its his skill.

No you can use FS more than once per game.

 

[Metal B]

No, they were not random.
So to you, the 20seconds during which the players will fight for the ball should be enough as a deciding factor as to who shall go back home with a golden trophee? This isn't what smash should be about.

Its not what MELEE and 64 are about! This is BRAWL. You dont have to fight about the Smash-Balls. It could be a risk or it could give you an advance ... but only if you get it, use it well and your opponet cant dodge/counter it.

Or he could combo you into his FS?

But also he could lose his smash ball if you counter. And he cant use his B-Attacks, because it would trigger the Ultra-Smash...

No you can use FS more than once per game.

DOJO says:
"The Final Smash is a secret skill that can be performed but once ... "
They says "performed but once", that doesn't mean that there couldn't be more than one Smash-Ball!

 

[BentoBox]

Its not what MELEE and 64 are about! This is BRAWL. You dont have to fight about the Smash-Balls. It could be a risk or it could give you an advance ... but only if you get it, use it well and your opponet cant dodge/counter it.

So brawl should be less skill oriented now?

But also he could lose his smash ball if you counter. And he cant use his B-Attacks, because it would trigger the Ultra-Smash...

He can't use his neutral-B. Not all B-attacks~

DOJO says:
"The Final Smash is a secret skill that can be performed but once ... "
They says "performed but once", that doesn't mean that there couldn't be more than one Smash-Ball!

And yet, Samus has to use her FS twice to return to her original form. And Pit uses it twice here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=F92Vo4cLwnU

 

[Crispy4001]

A one hit KO move has no place in competitive play, period. "But, but it can be avoided" is no excuse. Think about what you're arguing for here, a move that can shave off a stock in a single sequence. Unless MK's FS is broken on a level like Ganondorfs up-tilt A, which it won't be, it needs to be banned.


And I hate to remind people of this once again, but Smash Balls appearances are random. Which means, you may get an opportunity to break one open while your opponent is busy doing something else like dying in a star finish or recovering back to the ledge. It's absolute BS to argue that the better player will always get the Smash ball. It's also wrong to conclude that both players will get an opportunity to use one every match. Not every match will be lopsided, but the possibility is there.

 

[brawlpro]

I repeat..smash ball will NOT be in tournaments!!!

 

[Crispy4001]

disregard..

 

[Metal B]

So brawl should be less skill oriented now?

Who has said that? Why is know how to doge Ultra-Smash from more ca. 30 diffrent on more than ca. 40 Stages, attacking with his own Ultra-Smash against someone how to know to dodge your Ultra-Smash, geeting a Smash-Ball, steal a Smash-Ball, etc. not skill?
Its not like Nintendo dont know that this Attacks are strong ... thats why there are not like normal items.

He can't use his neutral-B. Not all B-attacks~

Sorry my mistake ... but it changes not my point.

And yet, Samus has to use her FS twice to return to her original form.

Becauce she is Zamus know and did anybody know if she only take her Suit on or is she also attacking?

 

[Crispy4001]

No different to Samus getting a free charge.

Yes, it's different. Samus's charge attack takes more timing and skill to land than most of these Final Smashes will. It's not as big, doesn't grant invulnerability, presumably won't be as strong as many of these FSs, etc.

Posible, but assuming the respawn change stays in the final code, ther's no reason why you can't avoid the aiming by jumping off the platform.

Perhaps that could work for FS's like Metaknight's or Samus's ... but what about Yoshi's? Pit's? Bowser's?

Lets see how real smash players deal with that one on the 18th. Instant kill, I doubt it.

He can miss, but if it lands the KO is surefire according to Bozon. Expect expert players to work it into their combos (something E for All won't be good enough indication of due to unfamiliarity). Or worse, ledge guard with it.

That could vary from character to character. And no reason why you can't combo/grab someone who's picked it up.

You could combo/grab them, but all they need to do is hit 'B' at the right time to turn it all around on you (quite a few character's FSs wouldn't even need to worry about the timing).

Think about it. When someone else gets a smash ball before they've used it you have two options:

- Rush in at them in hopes that you'll knock it out before they hit you point blank with it
- Run away and hope you can position yourself so you can dodge it most effectively

Those aren't exactly great options. You're at a significant disadvantage when your opponent has the ball, end of story.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

there is confirmed invulerability on samus FS? is it blockable? those factors are very gd important. both of which you assumed the "best case scenario" for your argument.

stop assuming, to me they look worse than normal super moves. bad recovery. SLOW start up. you can even MOVE when there is "super freeze" (aka cut in) for the attack. thats HORRIBLE , in any other game that would make most any super worthless aside from punishment. aisde from that, the start up is attrocious. (AFTER the "super freeze, which dosent freeze)it only did 44dmg with (what appears to be) all hits hitting. the move looked about 30+ frames before it hit directly infront of her. (after the freeze) with the freeze it was almost a full second. not only that but after the last hit hits, shes stuck for 3 fulls seconds. THREE SECONDS. thats the worst recovery ive ever seen.

what if you can DI out of the **** thing? that alone could make it worthless. take the first hit and hold up, and you fly out of the top taking 10-15 dmg.

not only that, but what if she can be hit during the move but dosent take hit stun, only dmg? how much dmg do you think you couldet get on someone frozen in space for over 10 seconds?

your ignoring all of these factors because smash spawn point is random. but from what i see, having a smash ball might even be more of a disadvantage than an advatange. (what specials CAN you do when you have one? we dont know that either.)

dont know enough to judge. end of story. too many variables to go "omfg baaannned" cause you see a big scary beam that did under "half life" dmg.

watch some high level MVC2, or 3S chun/ken/yun.

Guilty Gear instant kills? Hokuto no ken instant kills? a broken move is a broken move, but the ability to do it few times, and at such disadvantage is what makes it balance out.

we just dont know enough, thats it.

 

[Zauron]

I repeat..smash ball will NOT be in tournaments!!!

This kind of absolutism is short-sighted and narrow-minded. Any tournament organizer would be a fool to ban them in their first Brawl tournament, when they have yet to see if people would prefer them or not and the game is still young and new. If you have rules people don't like, they aren't going to like your tournament, and they aren't going to go any more. The wisest course of action is to start with them turned on, evaluate feedback on them from the players, and then decide if they should be banned or not.

You can make arguments here, like Crispy is doing, about why you don't think they should be allowed. But making these absolute statements about them being banned when there is so little information and clearly a push to include them just makes you look like you are jumping on a bandwagon with no real thought behind your assertion.

 

[SAMaine]

The Final Smash is a secret skill that can be performed but once…and only after obtaining an item called the Smash Ball, which is a precious item, indeed.-Smash Bros. Dojo Just because it isn't listed as an item in Smash Dojo doesn't mean it isn't, especially with all the evidence. You guys can go ahead and argue while I just sit back and read your points. Continue on.

Well, personally, I think it's stupid to ban something without testing it out immensely, especially something that is a major feature that will be the focus of balancing characters. Heck, my personal opinion is that every thing in Brawl should be allowed and checked if each item, stage, AND character has balance issues or not, since this game isn't Melee. If they ARE too good and many people agree, then it can be banned. Super Smash Bros. isn't Street Fighter, you know. It may've changed immensely. I mean heck, from what I've seen of Meta Knight, even without his Final Smash, he appears to be "Akuma" good and might be banworthy as well. At least play test all aspects of Brawl before you bring down the banhammer on them.

Besides, if you ban too much from the travelling tournaments from the get go, new potential tournament players may just play online with friends, because I am SURE someone is going to use Tournament Mode with Wifi to make their own online tournament.

 

[nuro]

lol, the dojo said "but once" because when you pick up the ball you can only use it once but u have to get it again to use it again.

there will be no finalsmashes in the competitive scene. They are the cheapest item of all the other items.

And go ask any pro pokemon player what they think about the luck/random things that happen in battles. their response will most likely be "its bull**** and it makes it so you cant really be a master of the game"

actually sephirothken said those same words.

 

[nuro]

I can't see why not, but none of the noobs in any of the videos have tried yet .

lol, i like how you said you go to tournaments and rank high but yet when i check your profile there is nothing posted in the tournament section.

if you did go to tournaments fairly often you would know that they should be banned. when i first got into the tourny scene i at first wanted items but i quickly realized why items arent on and now i am completely on the side of saying no items for tournies. im sure if u went to bigger/more tournys u would too.

 

[SirroMinus1]

I dunno if anyone else has been wanting/thinking about this, but I honestly think that this is a debatable issue.

This item is so different in comparison to all the others; although it requires the same amount of luck (it floats around in random directions >_>; ), it's much better than the other items in that it can easily be taken away. It's a fairly balanced item.

So...thoughts?

at the end of the day its an effortless due to an item.

 

[Zauron]

lol, i like how you said you go to tournaments and rank high but yet when i check your profile there is nothing posted in the tournament section.

if you did go to tournaments fairly often you would know that they should be banned. when i first got into the tourny scene i at first wanted items but i quickly realized why items arent on and now i am completely on the side of saying no items for tournies. im sure if u went to bigger/more tournys u would too.

lol, I like how you assume I'd post in the tournaments section just because I attend them. Truth is I didn't really post at all, as my profile will show, until very recently, and only about Brawl stuff. I didn't even actually register until very recently. But I've used the boards for information for years. I just never had anything to say. I decided to register and start contributing myself when I started to see horribly misinformed comments from other posters about the possibilities of programming in Brawl. Being a full-time game programmer myself, I felt compelled to register and set the record straight on some of the horrible misconceptions on the truth about game programming.

In any case, I agree, IN MELEE items should be turned off in tournaments. I never said anything against that. I haven't played with items on in years. I'm stating that making assumptions about Brawl before it is out and already declaring what should and should not be banned is foolish. Just read some of the threads about how many changes are being made to the core mechanics of Brawl. Its a very different game, and we've only scratched its surface. Until the game comes out, I consider anyone who claims FS's should be banned without even trying it out first to be, quite frankly, immature and irrational. You can argue for why you believe they ought to be based on the information we have, as Crispy is doing, but just stating they WILL be banned as fact with so little information is just mind-boggingly stupid to me.

 

[Mama]

lol, the dojo said "but once" because when you pick up the ball you can only use it once but u have to get it again to use it again.

there will be no finalsmashes in the competitive scene. They are the cheapest item of all the other items.

And go ask any pro pokemon player what they think about the luck/random things that happen in battles. their response will most likely be "its bull**** and it makes it so you cant really be a master of the game"

actually sephirothken said those same words.

You sound like a complete newb. "cheapest item of all other items"....cry more noob.

Go back and read a few of the previous pages and try to post with some thought on the matter rather than sounding like a close minded douche.

 

[Doggalina]

I'll probably turn off Final Smashes right away, just like I turned off Skill Shots in Mario Tennis and never used Megastrikes in Strikers Charged (which, by the way, don't rely on ANY luck to execute, unlike the FS).

I just don't like moves that turn the game around like that. It's great when you're partying, but when you want to see who's the best, you don't want something like that.

 

[Solharath]

Page 26 and posting something now is a huge risk, seeing as everything I may say has been discussed already or de-confirmed and the like, but here I go anyway.

Smash balls should be allowed in tournaments, seeing as they are a staple for this game, unleashing pain and leveling out characters on the tier list. Meta Knight is a God Character, but his FS, I hear, sucks.

Plus, I might as well say that you can use a Final Smash after you have used one before. How would Zero Suit have one if, first, She had to be Samus? They are basically one charge items of ultimate, and let's face it, cool proportions. I mean, each character is no longer completely defined by their B moves - they now have a ultimate attack of doom. Plus, it's not completely one-sided if you think about it. Just imagine Team Attack on - You have to wait for your ally to get out of the way somehow, and they smack you until you lose it, creating a havoc display of desperation for the Smash Brawl.

 

[Doggalina]

Want proof that at least one FS is broken?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7IusuaM0Bi0
Now imagine that Giga Bowser with invincibility and a time limit. Can you say auto loss of stock?

EDIT: And how to we know a)Meta's FS sucks and b)Meta is God? Reporters were playing the game. Metaknight could end up in Low Tier for all I know.

 

[Gilgamesh]

I would have left the power shots on in Mario Tennis, but they just happen too often. In the end it was more fun playing without them.

I think it'll be different with Final Smashes, as it seems they're way more rare. But oh well, this thread is about the tournament scene and i won't go into that.

 

[GhostAnime]

I would have left the power shots on in Mario Tennis, but they just happen too often. In the end it was more fun playing without them.

I think it'll be different with Final Smashes, as it seems they're way more rare. But oh well, this thread is about the tournament scene and i won't go into that.

they aren't "rare". they work just like any other item.

 

[Zauron]

they aren't "rare". they work just like any other item.

Oh? Have you played the game? Because from what we've seen, they do not work "just like any other item." We don't even know for sure if they count as an item in the options screens - perhaps there is a whole different option for Smash Orbs separate from the item options. They certainly don't behave like any other item. You can't even pick them up, nor can you activate them by just touching them like a Starman. They actually move on their own and play a bit of keep-away when they are hit. They are actually much different than other items. We don't even know for sure yet that they CAN be turned off.

 

[pirkid]

No, they were not random.
So to you, the 20seconds during which the players will fight for the ball should be enough as a deciding factor as to who shall go back home with a golden trophee? This isn't what smash should be about.



Or he could combo you into his FS?



No you can use FS more than once per game.

"The Final Smash is a secret skill that can be performed but once…and only after obtaining an item called the Smash Ball, which is a precious item, indeed."

Unless he forgot, you can only use it once. I assume that you can't attack the SB after it respawns again.

 

[Doggalina]

Oh? Have you played the game? Because from what we've seen, they do not work "just like any other item." We don't even know for sure if they count as an item in the options screens - perhaps there is a whole different option for Smash Orbs separate from the item options. They certainly don't behave like any other item. You can't even pick them up, nor can you activate them by just touching them like a Starman. They actually move on their own and play a bit of keep-away when they are hit. They are actually much different than other items. We don't even know for sure yet that they CAN be turned off.

They come out of capsules. I think that's good support for Smash Balls being items.

 

[Zauron]

"The Final Smash is a secret skill that can be performed but once…and only after obtaining an item called the Smash Ball, which is a precious item, indeed."

Unless he forgot, you can only use it once. I assume that you can't attack the SB after it respawns again.

No, its just poorly translated. He didn't say "a secret skill that can be performed but once per stock" or "a secret skill that can be performed but once per match." In this case, "once" just means you can only perform the secret skill once and then you can't perform it again, until you get another Smash Orb. We've already seen a video where a character did a final smash then got another Smash Orb and did it again, without dying between the 2 uses.

He was just clarifying that getting a Smash Orb doesn't mean you can use the Final Smash as many times as you want, its a one-shot deal. Plus, it means only one Smash Orb can be active at a time - so you can't get a Final Smash charge and never use it and then have another Smash Orb come along and someone else get it, and then 2 people have Final Smash power at the same time. Once a Smash Orb comes out, another won't spawn until it leaves or someone manages to collect it and actually use the Final Smash. This prevents problems with "what happens when character X uses their Final Smash at the same time character Y uses theirs?", particularly when it comes to the likely graphics issues if multiple Final Smashes could be used at the same time.

 

[Crispy4001]

Want proof that at least one FS is broken?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7IusuaM0Bi0
Now imagine that Giga Bowser with invincibility and a time limit. Can you say auto loss of stock?

EDIT: And how to we know a)Meta's FS sucks and b)Meta is God? Reporters were playing the game. Metaknight could end up in Low Tier for all I know.

Agreed 100% about that Giga Bowser point. They could gimp him a little for his Final Smash in Brawl, but still, it's going to mean "darn, I'm just about ****ed now" for the other player.

And Bozon on IGN's boards stated that Meta Knight's Final Smash was an instantaneous KO. It doesn't have the range that others FSs have, but you could kill someone on 0% with it. Broken much?

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

lol if were gonna argue stupid phrasing , final smashes arent very secrect.

doggalina: so you just turned them off.. because you thought they were too powerful....

::holds head::

most of them arent even worth the effort, in tennis going for a lob shot mix up and rushing the net on any non technical character was magnitudes better. they werent hard to counter either.

also, blocking the charged shots in strikers was just timing, not letting hte person execute them to begin with was easier.

lol the options are for customization.. not ****** the gameplay mechanics. do you play fighters with max life and turn the time on infinite too?



edit: or bower could be rocking 3 hit super armor.... its not like every one started wailing on him. or tried to hit him pretty much at all anyway. did you even think he might just have infinite super armor? and is still dmgable even though he dosent take hit stun? (like pretty much all forms of super armor) we also didnt see how long it lasted or its recovery. but i guess those factors dont matter with a move/super mode right? cause theory fighting is stupid, and you can always say everything will always work. reguardless of how many ways there are to counter said thing.

why were at it, metaknight is banned, you heard what ign said. that sucka is BANNED. [/stupid]

or better yet, lets just trust initial impressions from a second hand source about anything at all?

im done with this thread. -.-

 

[Doggalina]

I didn't just turn the Skill Shots off because I thought they were too powerful; they were annoying too. Playing without them allowed for a more fluid game.

 

[SmashChu]

Want proof that at least one FS is broken?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7IusuaM0Bi0
Now imagine that Giga Bowser with invincibility and a time limit. Can you say auto loss of stock?

EDIT: And how to we know a)Meta's FS sucks and b)Meta is God? Reporters were playing the game. Metaknight could end up in Low Tier for all I know.

Yah, because a game that isn't the one were talking about is an indicator that Giga Bowser will be broken. You haven't even played Brawl yet. No talkie for U.

 

[Doggalina]

Yah, because a game that isn't the one were talking about is an indicator that Giga Bowser will be broken. You haven't even played Brawl yet. No talkie for U.

Well, unless Bowser's moveset completely changes when he becomes Giga Bowser, my point still stands. In that vid, Whirling Fortress was essentially unavoidable by FALCON of all people.

 

[Crispy4001]

Yah, because a game that isn't the one were talking about is an indicator that Giga Bowser will be broken. You haven't even played Brawl yet. No talkie for U.

Take it from someone who's played the game then:

"GigaBowser plays exactly like regular bowser, only he's freaking huge, can't be stopped and practically any attack from him sends characters flying like crazy."

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157914&page=609


Sounds pretty broken to me. But that's what Smash Balls are all about - creating artificial imbalances between characters to spice things up.

At least conceptually, they're completely out of place in a tournament setting, because it's no longer the players that dictate the pacing of the match. Instead, it the pacing becomes partially reliant on a heavy curveball the game throws out at random.

 

[Master Peach]

He's one thing to take into account. What if FS are allowed in tourneys after they have been tested. What if Pros say they have no problems with the FS? They say that it's easy to get around, counter, and combo into, that it requires skill and technique to use. What if they say that tournaments require the SB being on?

Are you never going to a tourney again? Will you hate Brawl?

If FS are in or not I still go to tourneys. I only thing I arguing about is that people say it won't work for tournaments. Which is untrue of course.

#1. You people have not played the game, so you don't know how it may work.

#2. Just because Something looks like it may not fit in a game doesn't mean it won't.

#3. You people are too quick to judge. You disconfirm something even before it can be tested for worth. Give it a chance why don't ya. You could be right, but we don't know enough to say that.

#4. Wait for the official game to come out before you judge. See for yourself if it fits or not. It may so happen that you may like FS's in a competitive match. Ya never know.

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

secondhand OPINION =/= fact

we dont know enough about them.

wait till the 18th.

done.

 

[Gum]

But here is something else to chew on. The smash ball would have to be turned on in tourneys if Sakurai doesn't make Zero Suit Samus selectable at the character screen. What if people just like her and not regular samus. I don't know if that will be the case or not, but if so the s-ball would have to be tourney legal.

 

[Maben]

But here is something else to chew on. The smash ball would have to be turned on in tourneys if Sakurai doesn't make Zero Suit Samus selectable at the character screen. What if people just like her and not regular samus. I don't know if that will be the case or not, but if so the s-ball would have to be tourney legal.

I have to disagree here. My personal feeling is that smash balls will not be in tournaments, along with all the regular items. If this is the only way to turn into ZSS then she's pretty much going to be excluded. If smash balls would be turned off without ZSS even being considered, there's no way they would be turned on just so someone can play as their favorite character.

 

[Mama]

I think its obvious that each Final Smash will have its weakness. Giga Bowser for example is really big and will probably be too large to maneuver efficiently in some stages. You shouldn't take the word of someone who writes articles as fact. For one, the guy is probably a total newb, two, he's probably exaggerating anyway. Sending a character flying =/= death.

 

[nuro]

lol, I like how you assume I'd post in the tournaments section just because I attend them. Truth is I didn't really post at all, as my profile will show, until very recently, and only about Brawl stuff. I didn't even actually register until very recently. But I've used the boards for information for years. I just never had anything to say. I decided to register and start contributing myself when I started to see horribly misinformed comments from other posters about the possibilities of programming in Brawl. Being a full-time game programmer myself, I felt compelled to register and set the record straight on some of the horrible misconceptions on the truth about game programming.

In any case, I agree, IN MELEE items should be turned off in tournaments. I never said anything against that. I haven't played with items on in years. I'm stating that making assumptions about Brawl before it is out and already declaring what should and should not be banned is foolish. Just read some of the threads about how many changes are being made to the core mechanics of Brawl. Its a very different game, and we've only scratched its surface. Until the game comes out, I consider anyone who claims FS's should be banned without even trying it out first to be, quite frankly, immature and irrational. You can argue for why you believe they ought to be based on the information we have, as Crispy is doing, but just stating they WILL be banned as fact with so little information is just mind-boggingly stupid to me.

You sound like a complete newb. "cheapest item of all other items"....cry more noob.

Go back and read a few of the previous pages and try to post with some thought on the matter rather than sounding like a close minded douche.

If it wasn't an item it would be another story but since its a random item that spawns out of nowhere its a no can do. Sorry, I'm just telling you thats the way its going to be with most tournaments. But who knows maybe a lot of people will have miniside tournaments like ala lowtiers.

 

[Demon_machinE]

They're really awesome looking, but sound like theyd get annoying after maybe 120 or so matches with em on. You might wanna turn em off

Who knows, the games fresh just play it and make your OWN strats, and contribute to the metagame. Try to do with it what you can I say

then decide the rules for a fair test of skill. That is all.

 

[iMichael]

Yeah I think Smashballs will be around in the tourneys

4 stock matches with the Smashball spawn on "low" or "very low" or something like that....

 

[Koga]

all the anti smash ball in tourneys is the most rediculous thing ever, its not like other items where you just pick it up and go, you have to hit it, this makes the game alot more deep i think, now you have to worry about beating your opponent, then once the smash ball comes out, you have to make sure you don't die chasing it, make sure you keep your opponent off you, keep your opponent off the smash ball, make sure you beat down the smash ball, make sure you don't get it hit out of you, then make sure you can position correctly and pull it off. That's worth winning the stock in my opinion, its just as tough as trying to KO your opponent.

I mean, can you imagine two pros Like Ken and M2K going after a smash ball? that wouldn't be ubalanced luck at all.

it just changes the dynamic of the game a little, and traditional smasher don't think they can make that radical adjustments and so they call it unbalanced, ugh. I hope they don't ruin this game with format restrictions