Will Smash 4 Be Competitive?

[RODO]

Thank you. ^^ But, isn't that PM? That changed character/stage selection? I've not kept up with PM so I'm not sure. ^^"

Also, too many MetaKnights and Ice Climbers. But oh well. Thank you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5CzS1NWB8#t=16
This is a pretty cool match but you'll have to excuse the quality.

 

[MasterofMonster]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5CzS1NWB8#t=16
This is a pretty cool match but you'll have to excuse the quality.

Thank you, RODO. Will Watch it. Though I do not know what's up with that Stage, though I guess it's just Modded~

 

[Fatmanonice]

Yes. I remember the first couple of months after Brawl came out how there were several prominent players that gave Brawl until the fall of 2009 before the competitive scene would be completely dead for it. More than six years later, it still has a fairly healthy competitive scene despite its flaws. When major players left, new ones took their place and the game has kept going instead of fizzling out like a number of people predicted. The point is that as long as enough people like the games and the games don't have too many things that are absolutely game breaking, people will keep playing them.

 

[Pazzo.]

Yes. I remember the first couple of months after Brawl came out how there were several prominent players that gave Brawl until the fall of 2009 before the competitive scene would be completely dead for it. More than six years later, it still has a fairly healthy competitive scene despite its flaws. When major players left, new ones took their place and the game has kept going instead of fizzling out like a number of people predicted. The point is that as long as enough people like the games and the games don't have too many things that are absolutely game breaking, people will keep playing them.

I think Brawl killed the competitive scene in the beginning because of the rift between Melee and itself. I mean,

Melee = Apple

Brawl = Orange

Both fruits, both organic(?), but VERY different. If anything, Smash 4 will be one of those weirdo-hybrid fruit you see in some super markets. Everyone will try it, and most will like it.

 

[S_B]

too much is balance.

Too much balance in a fighting game is like too many meatballs at an Italian family gathering.

It has never been observed and likely never will be.

 

[Mr. KoopaTurtle]

Thank you, RODO. Will Watch it. Though I do not know what's up with that Stage, though I guess it's just Modded~

This is a side note, but your signature is amazing.

 

[Boss N]

Is anyone else wondering how online ranking and matchmaking will work?
I know in the direct he said "rankings" will be based more on Global Smash Power, but in For Glory will there be a way to see who has the top Win/Lose ratio, and whether you can view who they are in your area/region/country?
In fact depending how online operates I could easily see it reviving region rivalries.
Actually does anyone have any ideas how match making could work, like how will ones "skills" be measured?

 

[PLATINUM7]

Is anyone else wondering how online ranking and matchmaking will work?
I know in the direct he said "rankings" will be based more on Global Smash Power, but in For Glory will there be a way to see who has the top Win/Lose ratio, and whether you can view who they are in your area/region/country?
In fact depending how online operates I could easily see it reviving region rivalries.
Actually does anyone have any ideas how match making could work, like how will ones "skills" be measured?

From the sound of things, you won't be able to see others matchmaking records. You might be able to see your own win/lose ratio but I don't think you can compare it except to people you know personally.

As for the invisible matchmaking, my guess is it just records your statistics in For Glory and places you in mathes with people who have similar statistics.

 

[Zebkeet]

This is a question everyone is asking. Going into the pro scene myself once Smash 4 comes out, I want to hear what the people think. Please leave your opinions below.

 

[Kapus]

Of course.

Pretty sure we've had several topics like this in the past asking the same question.

 

[D-idara]

Yes, it already looks pretty good, and with Nintendo taking feedback, I can just assume it's going to get better.

 

[Ulevo]

The question has never been whether or not the game will be competitive. If a game is popular and facilitates player vs player, the game will be competitive to some varying degree. Even if the game was downright horrible, this game would see competition.

The question is is it a good competitive game.

 

[AquaTech]

If Brawl had any semblance of a competitive scene (which it did), there's no reason this game shouldn't as well. I don't think P:M is popular enough to supersede a new edition being released.

 

[Ulevo]

If Brawl had any semblance of a competitive scene (which it did), there's no reason this game shouldn't as well. I don't think P:M is popular enough to supersede a new edition being released.

Project M is and always will be a mod, and there's some setbacks and struggles that come with that. Reality is that Smash Wii U will be the new shiny thing on the block, and people will go to it for a while. I think people will make up their minds on what to stick with much faster though.

 

[Xermo]

http://smashboards.com/posts/16582332/

 

[Gunla]

The threads "Will Smash 4 be competitive" and "Will Smash 4 be competetive" have been merged together for ease of access and prevention of redundant threads in a span of time.
Carry on.

 

[Renji64]

Well someone finally says it.

 

[VictoriaYr]

While that video does have some solid points, I feel like it still too early to tell.
I honestly don't understand why someone would outright call Sakurai egotistical and stubborn for not wanting to change his vision of the game. Playing a demo does not really give any insight on the development process or how it is being put together. Maybe something doesn't make sense from the outside perspective, but unless you are apart of the team it's sort of irresponsible to jump to conclusions on what the whole process is like.

And... I agree with what ZeRo was saying during his AMA. Smash 4 will be competitive. It might not be the kind of game some people want to play, but that doesn't mean it won't be competitive. The harder question is... how big will the scene get? If Nintendo promotes or endorses Smash 4 tournaments, a lot of people would be willing to turn up (if they get their rules straight). I think a lot can happen in five...seven months.

 

[CheeseBroJoe]

I agree with just about every point in that video. I just got back from playing the demo at Best Buy, and although I only played a 2 minute match, the gameplay seemed a bit lackluster. I sure as hell wasn't expecting project M, but I was hoping it'd be a little faster than it was. It seemed to me that the characters were just as floaty as they were in brawl, and that was pretty much my main qualm with brawl. However, I am sure that there will be loads of tweaking prior to the final product. While I was there, it froze once, and had a couple other glitches that I noticed. If that is any sort of indicator of how close this game is to being polished, it is apparent to me that there is still significant work to be done.

 

[The21stSmasher]

To be honest, that video kinda pissed me off... Nintendo's trying their best to support the competitive community of Smash and their trying to make the game more competitive for them, yet Matt wants to proclaim that Smash 4 isn't gonna be as competitive as Melee or Project M. Sure, it's not fast as Melee or Project M, but the game still have its chances. He shouldn't jump to that conclusion.

 

[Ulevo]

To be honest, that video kinda pissed me off... Nintendo's trying their best to support the competitive community of Smash and their trying to make the game more competitive for them, yet Matt wants to proclaim that Smash 4 isn't gonna be as competitive as Melee or Project M. Sure, it's not fast as Melee or Project M, but the game still have its chances. He shouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Jumping to conclusions and making reasonable assessments are two different things. He has legitimate reasons for why he's saying what he is.

This reminds me of when Gimpyfish told the community that Brawl wasn't going to be a very good game competitively, and everyone just turned on the hate and chewed him out for it. Low and behold, Gimpy was right. Matt isn't even the only person saying these things. A lot of people are.

 

[BioZelink]

Of course it will be. No matter how many Melee fans say that Brawl wasn't competitive, it still was. It just played slower and more strategic. So yes, no matter what it will be competitive.

 

[JayJay584]

The game will 100% be competitive, it'll just be a new Smash experience for everybody. Sure a lot of older players from previous installments may drop the game, but new players can spring up and truly shine in this game.

Jumping to conclusions and making reasonable assessments are two different things. He has legitimate reasons for why he's saying what he is.

Not too reasonable in my opinion. I still only see that video as bait. I especially didn't like what he was saying about Sakurai.

This reminds me of when Gimpyfish told the community that Brawl wasn't going to be a very good game competitively, and everyone just turned on the hate and chewed him out for it. Low and behold, Gimpy was right. Matt isn't even the only person saying these things. A lot of people are.

Sakurai didn't want Brawl to be competitive from the get-go, that much is true. Despite that Brawl was played competitively for years despite it's problems. You think Smash 4 can't do the same when it's fixing most of the problems it had? You think if Smash 4 doesn't meet the expectations of a select few people it'll just die out competitively? Smash is a series that isn't easily killed. I know a lot of people have been scared off by Brawl and what it turned out to be, but I also think that fear is carrying over to Smash 4 and is fogging the judgement of some people.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Jumping to conclusions and making reasonable assessments are two different things. He has legitimate reasons for why he's saying what he is.

This reminds me of when Gimpyfish told the community that Brawl wasn't going to be a very good game competitively, and everyone just turned on the hate and chewed him out for it. Low and behold, Gimpy was right. Matt isn't even the only person saying these things. A lot of people are.

Yeah, but that was Brawl. At the time Brawl was in the works, Nintendo was making the game for the casuals and only the casuals. But now since Nintendo knows the competitive side, their supporting them while developing Smash 4, other than pretending they don't know it and tries to kick out Smash from EVO from the past years. If Nintendo still doesn't support the competitive community today, then yes. Matt will be right.

It's like I said though. The game still have its chances. It'll be tragic if the game dropped outta the competitive side of Smash.

 

[Ulevo]

Not too reasonable in my opinion. I still only see that video as bait. I especially didn't like what he was saying about Sakurai.

Sakurai didn't want Brawl to be competitive from the get-go, that much is true. Despite that Brawl was played competitively for years despite it's problems. You think Smash 4 can't do the same when it's fixing most of the problems it had? You think if Smash 4 doesn't meet the expectations of a select few people it'll just die out competitively? Smash is a series that isn't easily killed. I know a lot of people have been scared off by Brawl and what it turned out to be, but I also think that fear is carrying over to Smash 4 and is fogging the judgement of some people.

First of all, there's something that's important for people to realize. Brawl had its shortcomings, but specifically saying its bad because it isn't Melee is both a poor generalization and too broad in scope to have meaningful discussion about. The things you want to consider in this topic are the following:

1. What did Brawl remove from Smash that was in previous installments? How did this impact the game?
2. What did Brawl add in to Smash that wasn't in previous installments? How did this impact the game?
3. What bugs, glitches, oversights had significant impact on the game, and why. Were they positive or negative?

Brawl removed a lot of things from previous titles without adding a lot of things that were new. That was a problem all on its own. Then you have the fact that Brawl also had a very large laundry list of problems associated with bugs and glitches, along with poor design choices, things the development and balance team missed, so on and so forth.

In regards to 1 and 2, I think it's pretty safe to say we know what to expect for Smash 4. That is to say that if you consider Smash having aspects removed during each new installment and not a lot of new aspects coming in to supplement a problem, then no, they're not fixing these issues. As for 3, we can see they're fixing many of them, yes. But how do we know new problems won't surface? Well, we don't. That's something we need to wait and see.

At best, problems associated with 3 will be fine, and Smash 4 will be a relatively 'clean' game, so to speak, if Sakurai and co. did well. But I mean, talking about this is silly because even thought this attracted a lot of hate towards Brawl, things like this should be expected to be handled properly, especially from a big budget title like this one.

For 1 and 2, it's looking disappointing unless some reconsideration's are made by Sakurai and the development team.

Also, as per Smash Wii U dying off or not as a competitive title. Things are quite different this time around. For one, it doesn't have the Melee hype train backing it up. In fact it's quite the opposite. People and players are giving exclusive praise to Melee as the competitive title that kept the series going. The Wii U is also not doing as hot as the Wii first was, and the sales of the console aren't going to carry the sales of the game regardless of how good or bad the game is. And finally, people are skeptical. Real skeptical. They remember what happened when they started dating Brawl and found out how deceitful she was. People, myself included, aren't even going to buy the game on launch day until we confirm it's actually worth buying. With Brawl, people were lining up at the door because they thought it was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Yeah, but that was Brawl. At the time Brawl was in the works, Nintendo was making the game for the casuals and only the casuals. But now since Nintendo knows the competitive side, their supporting them while developing Smash 4, other than pretending they don't know it and tries to kick out Smash from EVO from the past years. If Nintendo still doesn't support the competitive community today, then yes. Matt will be right.

It's like I said though. The game still have its chances. It'll be tragic if the game dropped outta the competitive side of Smash.

Um, yeah. Refer to ^.

Also, I think people need to realize that Nintendo isn't balancing this game. Sakurai and his team are. I actually genuinely believe Nintendo is jumping ships the way they should be, and actually has legitimate interest in us now. Unfortunately I don't think that means anything with Sakurai not on board the hype train.

 

[Morbi]

While that video does have some solid points, I feel like it still too early to tell.
I honestly don't understand why someone would outright call Sakurai egotistical and stubborn for not wanting to change his vision of the game. Playing a demo does not really give any insight on the development process or how it is being put together. Maybe something doesn't make sense from the outside perspective, but unless you are apart of the team it's sort of irresponsible to jump to conclusions on what the whole process is like.

And... I agree with what ZeRo was saying during his AMA. Smash 4 will be competitive. It might not be the kind of game some people want to play, but that doesn't mean it won't be competitive. The harder question is... how big will the scene get? If Nintendo promotes or endorses Smash 4 tournaments, a lot of people would be willing to turn up (if they get their rules straight). I think a lot can happen in five...seven months.

I believe you answered your own question in your own sentence. I just found the self-referential incoherence humorous; however, to elaborate, his vision is great and a lot of people enjoy it, but sometimes it is better to put your own desires at a lower priority for the benefit of the consumers. You cannot and should not always get your way. It is a detriment to the game, one that is; unfortunately, unavoidable. For instance; the video asserted it best, the game can be competitive and a party (casual) game at the same time, just like Melee and more notably: Injustice or Marvel vs. Capcom 3. The development process is irrelevant as it could obviously be much better given his resources. I agree with the video, there is no way that 12 people are sufficient to balance the game.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Um, yeah. Refer to ^.

Hm? What do you mean by that?

 

[PBK!]

A game like Super Smash Bros will always be competitive by definition. However, Ulevo and others are not saying that Brawl and this new smash won't be competitive, they are just saying that it won't be as deep as a game like Melee. And I agree

Also Brawl's competitive scene is dying and would likely be dead if Melee didn't bring a rush of competitive players into the Smash scene.

 

[grandmaster192]

Sakurai: Here's fast-rolls and lower landing lag overall.
Melee Etilists: Nah, we want wavedash! This game's Brawl 2.0 gg...we don't want another version of a previous game, oh wait...

Sakurai: Here's flat versions of all stages.
Melee Etilists: We feel like you're making fun of competitive players.

Mom: Sweetie, here's this 2000$ dress you wanted for the prom.
Daughter: Mom! That's not the exact shade of purple I wanted, my life is ruined, I hate you!.

Basically what I've collected on my two weeks of absence from Smashboards' reactions to the Direct news. Seriously guys...even looking at the trailer, you can see that this game feels much more fast-paced than Brawl, even though it's not Melee 2.0 (Not that any reasonable Smash player wants it to be Melee 2.0 or Brawl 2.0) you can see that Sakurai's working to give movement options without compromising the simplicity of the game, which was what Brawl aimed to do with gameplay but didn't quite get right. I said it back when I watched the Little Mac trailer, I love how this game looks fast (Melee) but fluid (Brawl) and tries to work on both games' shortcomings. Melee was fast to the point of being twitchy and wonky but Brawl was slow to the point of becoming boring, so a middleground's perfect.

Why do you always feel the need to bash melee players or the games mechanics? Nothing you say or do is going to change the fact that it's the preferred game in the smash community. It's the fan favorite game so naturally people are going to want something like it.

 

[Shaya]

Warning: Not much point replying to a 2 month old post.

 

[Ulevo]

Hm? What do you mean by that?

The quote above yours.

 

[Neoleo21]

of course it will, its a bit defensive but the metagame will evolve over time

 

[EPsilon933]

of course it will, its a bit defensive but the metagame will evolve over time

"A bit"? More like a lot. Attacking is too punishable. The metagame will basically be baiting the opponent to attack 1st and miss, then punish. Sure there will very likely be other intricacies, but on the surface from what we can tell, there's not a lot we know of that we can be optimistic about yet

 

[raymundoTheGod]

I really hope so. I'm not sure how much longer I could play Melee. Thank god Project M came out.

 

[tyc]

As long as there are at least 2 individuals who want to be the best, any game is competitive so ofc Sm4sh will be competitive considering the huge amount of people ready to play it and attend tournaments. The real question here is, where the game will be between the ultra aggressive Melee and the ultra defensive Brawl.

 

[EPsilon933]

As long as there are at least 2 individuals who want to be the best, any game is competitive so ofc Sm4sh will be competitive considering the huge amount of people ready to play it and attend tournaments. The real question here is, where the game will be between the ultra aggressive Melee and the ultra defensive Brawl.

Melee is not ultra aggressive. There's a good balance between offensive and defensive options. An example of an ultra aggressive game would be UMVC3

 

[Sasquatch180]

Yes.

[/thread]

While I agree with your statement, you cannot /thread your own post, someone else has to do it.

 

[JediLink]

Melee is not ultra aggressive. There's a good balance between offensive and defensive options. An example of an ultra aggressive game would be UMVC3

I don't think that's necessarily true. Ever heard of Chris G?

 

[EPsilon933]

I don't think that's necessarily true. Ever heard of Chris G?

soulsoulsoulsoulsoulhiddenmissilessoulsoulsoulsoulsoulsoulsoulsoulfist

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

soulsoulsoulsoulsoulhiddenmissilessoulsoulsoulsoulsoulsoulsoulsoulfist

I like Chris G's methods personally. It's not exactly the easiest technique on the block to execute, and whilst being repetitive it gets the job done. Weirdly enough, I'm less enthused by Flocker's Zero strategy.