Will Smash 4 Be Competitive?

[PBK!]

As long as there are at least 2 individuals who want to be the best, any game is competitive so ofc Sm4sh will be competitive considering the huge amount of people ready to play it and attend tournaments. The real question here is, where the game will be between the ultra aggressive Melee and the ultra defensive Brawl.

The point isn't if Smash 4 will be competitive or not. Any fighting game like Super Smash will always be competitive, the question is will it be a good, deep competitive game and so far it is not trending in that direction.

 

[staindgrey]

The point isn't if Smash 4 will be competitive or not. Any fighting game like Super Smash will always be competitive, the question is will it be a good, deep competitive game and so far it is not trending in that direction.

I think you're misinterpreting what "deep" and "competitive" mean in this instance. Smash Bros. is a very complex and multi-layered game with a wide, varied cast, stage alterations, complicated movements, etc. There's absolutely no question that it will be deep and competitive.

The question is whether or not it will be fun for a super-competitive community in the way that Melee was. Brawl was just about as complex and deep as Melee, but it was really boring to watch by comparison. It was slow, campy, floaty and adverse to long chains or combos. It still had its complexities and concepts to master in order to excel, but it wasn't fast-paced and fun.

The new physics and alterations to movement could possibly make Smash4 more fun to watch and play than Brawl, but we really won't know until we get to host full 1v1 tournaments and see what people's reactions are.

 

[Hydde]

If nintendo were more inteliggent, they would try to turn Smash bros into a full blown competitive game, and try to emulate games like league of legends in this aspect.

Melee had the capacity for this.... and now, if they can try to fix a little more smash 4...maybe it could.
They would get tons of money and advertisement for it. And im pretty sure people would follow it and try to win.

But their reluctance to this kind of things...and that nintendo is by nature a gfamily/casual oriented console/company... will never let this happen.

Its kind of sad. I think we can just pray that feedback reaches someone who will be able to make sakurai bend over and stop being so stubborn.

I dont know why he hates so much the complexity and awesomeness of melee.

 

[Cassio]

Agreed, very good post from stainedgrey. Although even its defensiveness was overblown, there were definitely times Brawl became as exciting as a golf match.

Also I think the only lesson LoL has taught us is no matter how poor a game is it can still succeed with the right support.

 

[KieRanaRan]

If nintendo were more inteliggent, they would try to turn Smash bros into a full blown competitive game, and try to emulate games like league of legends in this aspect.

"Inteliggent", really? Oh the irony.

And League of Legends, just no.

In any case, of course it's going to be a competitive game. Competitive players have been given the likes of For Glory mode and Final Destination versions of all stages. In terms of its likeness to Melee/Brawl, I think this is something people need to get over. It will be its own game with its own feel. So what if its pacing is a bit slower/faster, it's a new game! Is it too much to ask that people take time with it and learn it instead of modding it to make it more like an older game ala Project M?

 

[RODO]

The irony of catering to casuals is that it makes it boring for them to watch our scene. Just look at how much everyone at e3 hated when Zero camped out hbox. They would probably hate Brawl because they don't understand the tactics behind camping our someone or using mind games. Melee, however, while still having camping situations would probably look more fun because it just looks like 2 guys beating the crap out of each other.

 

[KieRanaRan]

The irony of catering to casuals is that it makes it boring for them to watch our scene. Just look at how much everyone at e3 hated when Zero camped out hbox. They would probably hate Brawl because they don't understand the tactics behind camping our someone or using mind games. Melee, however, while still having camping situations would probably look more fun because it just looks like 2 guys beating the crap out of each other.

The reason us casuals are 'catered' to is because Smash is first and foremost a party game, and the casual players make up the bulk of the sales. That's just how it is.

 

[Cassio]

The biggest issue with the invitational is most of its players were bad at the game, and didnt seem able to play it outside the context of melee. Other video footage by CT, etc. does a better job representing the game.

 

[DefenseTech]

Will smash 4 be competitive? Anything can be competitive...

Curling
Beer Pong
Eating hot dogs
Collecting stamps
Etc etc

"Casual" players are still competing, I find it extremely arrogant to think that your view of competition is somehow better than someone else's view

 

[Beats]

The irony of catering to casuals is that it makes it boring for them to watch our scene. Just look at how much everyone at e3 hated when Zero camped out hbox. They would probably hate Brawl because they don't understand the tactics behind camping our someone or using mind games. Melee, however, while still having camping situations would probably look more fun because it just looks like 2 guys beating the crap out of each other.

I agree with this. I think melee is better for casuals than brawl is. If a casual player loses in melee, the response will likely be "dang you're good". On the other hand, losing in brawl feels more like "camping with Meta Knight's tornado is cheap". Just camping in general probably feels more cheap and not as fun for a casual.

 

[KieRanaRan]

If a casual player loses in melee, the response will likely be "dang you're good".

Forgive me, but how does this make the game better for casuals?

 

[RODO]

The reason us casuals are 'catered' to is because Smash is first and foremost a party game, and the casual players make up the bulk of the sales. That's just how it is.

I know this....I'm talking about how it makes it worse to watch and for someone who doesn't actually play the game competitively to be interested in watching people like us play.

 

[World]

If nintendo were more inteliggent, they would try to turn Smash bros into a full blown competitive game, and try to emulate games like league of legends in this aspect.

Melee had the capacity for this.... and now, if they can try to fix a little more smash 4...maybe it could.
They would get tons of money and advertisement for it. And im pretty sure people would follow it and try to win.

I think there is money to be made for Nintendo in focusing on the competitive side for Smash 4.

They're bringing back Gamecube controllers with the adapter and I don't see the majority of casual players
feeling the need to purchase it. Especially when you consider the Smash event at Bestbuy using Wii U pro controllers.

There could be things like official character themed gamecube controllers, dlc, and hosting other invitationals.

The great thing about it is that a competitive Smash really has no negative effects for casual players.
As pointed out earlier, Melee was a fun game for both sides and had a competitive scene for years.

 

[Beats]

Forgive me, but how does this make the game better for casuals?

Less frustrating. Easier to understand that they're being beaten by someone who put more time and effort into the game. Giving them something to aspire to if they want. Casuals probably won't look at a brawl game and think "man I want to learn to camp that hard". I think they are more likely to want to learn how to do combos in melee or something.

 

[RODO]

Less frustrating. Easier to understand that they're being beaten by someone who put more time and effort into the game. Giving them something to aspire to if they want. Casuals probably won't look at a brawl game and think "man I want to learn to camp that hard". I think they are more likely to want to learn how to do combos in melee or something.

It would also be sad if smash 4 comes out and some casual player just playing with his buddy thinks "oh dude remember that combo from the direct that sonic did? (or any combo for that matter) let's go try it out!" Only to realize it can't be done. Basically Sakurai knows combos are cool so he uses them to showcase the game but then hypocritically makes it to where someone can easily escape combos. This is all just using the demo for reference though.

 

[KieRanaRan]

I know this....I'm talking about how it makes it worse to watch and for someone who doesn't actually play the game competitively to be interested in watching people like us play.

Ah, yes. Fair enough, I misunderstood you.

Less frustrating. Easier to understand that they're being beaten by someone who put more time and effort into the game. Giving them something to aspire to if they want. Casuals probably won't look at a brawl game and think "man I want to learn to camp that hard". I think they are more likely to want to learn how to do combos in melee or something.

I can see where you're coming from, but I've played Smash for years (with many people) and this doesn't seem to be the case at all. In truth casuals are simply more likely to want to have fun in either version.

I guess what I'm basically getting at is the game doesn't need to be played in a competitive manner for it to be a competitive experience.

 

[ImaClubYou]

"Inteliggent", really? Oh the irony.

I hope you didn't make an account just to say that.


Smash 4. Who knows. Every Smash game has been kept alive by its unintended exploits.

Z-Cancel, Wave Dash, and DACUS are some of the things that lights the candle. My proof comes from how successful Project M is. I guarantee you if the devs of Project M added everything in BUT the exploits, no one would play it.

Smash 4 might get something that'll speed the game up, we'll just have to wait.

And remember! If you're a casual(I seriously don't understand this term, btw) you DON'T have to use it!!

HOORAY

 

[KieRanaRan]

I hope you didn't make an account just to say that.

And remember! If you're a casual(I seriously don't understand this term, btw) you DON'T have to use it!!

HOORAY

It would be tempting, but no, I didn't

And casual just means someone who doesn't play Smash in the competitive scene, no?

 

[Cassio]

For the record, I dont think anyone should be too worried about the combo game in smash 4. Keep in mind that no one was able to buffer with their character yet (particularly those who came from melee). If anyone payed attention to how buffering changed Brawl once people started using it adequately then youll know why its not something to lose sleep over.

 

[Hydde]

I think there is money to be made for Nintendo in focusing on the competitive side for Smash 4.

They're bringing back Gamecube controllers with the adapter and I don't see the majority of casual players
feeling the need to purchase it. Especially when you consider the Smash event at Bestbuy using Wii U pro controllers.

There could be things like official character themed gamecube controllers, dlc, and hosting other invitationals.

The great thing about it is that a competitive Smash really has no negative effects for casual players.
As pointed out earlier, Melee was a fun game for both sides and had a competitive scene for years.

Like i said before. Nintendo should try to emulate business models that are on the profit. Thjey are pretty much in a dire situation with their sales... and we all know that Smash 4 will be THE do or die game for WiiU. IN fact.. the system already is a failure.. but the sales of wiius and smash4s can somehow make up for it. Brawl was like the icing on the cake for the Wii. Smash 4 on the other hand is like the last of the mohicans to take an already sinking ship save into the shore.

We all knoe Lol is a onster on its own... the most succesfull competitive game in history (in terms of acceptance and $$$ involved).

Smash will never ever get close to LoL, becaue for starters.. you need to buy a wiiu and a game to be able to play it, unlike LoL which is a free game focused on online play 24/7. but i feel that Nintendo NEEDS to pounce on this chance to make smash 4 something else--

They need to get out of their shells and realize that Nintendo as a company is getting old and fast..and they are not agining any new customers with their games.

Smash has a passionate community and the game can be attractive to expectators. MI prettys ure that if they continued the melee gameplay trend... and Nintendo was daring to push the competitive scene..... the smash internatonal scene and acceptance would have been a smashing sucess.

I know this will not happen anytime soon, maybe never will... but i feel that seriously Nintendo needs to analyze their situation and their position in the market. Smash is their most famous game by far in the last 15 years, and thats not a coincidence.

IMO they are sleeping on their laurels. Just look at how efervecent the fans were in the Invitational.... Im pretty sure Sakurai saw it, he felt it... He wants to den it.. bt he knows that out there , a lot of people see his game not only as a party game, but as a serious competitive one.

He needs to stop being stubborn and just stop witchunting the competitive players for the sake of casuals.. who in first place...never ever moaned about a game like melee. Casuals will always eb casuals and play for fun. They will not get mad by getting ***** by pros.. because most casuals stay in their casual circle and will nto go to compete in tournies and venues full of skilled peeps. But competitive players on the other hand.. get shafted hardcore by sakurai decitions---- and this is unfair because we are also customers...and the ones that hype the game the most at competitive levels.

 

[Reila]

^ Some Smash fans are so entitled.

Anyway, Smash 64 is competitive, Melee is competitive and even the divisive Brawl is competitive. Why wouldn't Smash 4 be as well?

 

[ImaClubYou]

It would be tempting, but no, I didn't

And casual just means someone who doesn't play Smash in the competitive scene, no?

Recently, casual means people who hate advanced techs, at least at the moment.

I for one am in an indifference with the competitive value of Smash 4 since I plan to main Bower, who has gotten faster honestly, but is still slow in my playtime on the demo. I literally press 2 inputs every 2 seconds as opposed to Melee where I main Falco and press an uncountable number of buttons per second.

 

[sunshinesan]

I think the better question is, "Was Smash 4 built to be uncompetitive."
I think it is safe to say all 3 Smash's so far have been built independent of the idea of being competitive. Only one game thus far has actually gone out of it's way to be specifically uncompetitive (though this did not stop people from trying to play it competitively.).
Smash 4 has been to some degree, been marketed as a competitive game, or at least had competitiveness in mind. Some of the design choices says otherwise, so this is actually a good question.

 

[Hokori]

Q: Will Smash 4 be competitive?

A: Absolutely.

Q: Will Smash 4 be a good, "deep" competitive title?

A/Q: Is there a universal definition for what's considered to be a "good" and "deep" competitive title? From who's POV are we looking at? One group of people might think one way while another group thinks otherwise, and I think that's when differences in opinions become an issue. People getting deep into the game for themselves can make a case that the game is deep and competitive, but others looking on the outside can make a case that it's not because it's "boring to watch", and doesn't have x, y, and z. The thing with Smash is that it's already so different compared to other Fighters (if you don't consider Smash a fighter, cool, if you do, that's cool too) so what exactly are we comparing things to? Melee? Previous iterations of Smash that have all been different from one another? Fighting games outside of Smash?

I don't know. These type of questions can stir up debates where sides really can't ever see eye to eye on some matters so I don't really bother with them. I just believe that you can make something as competitive as you want it to be. Just like how we're about to take this next "Party Game" and hit up the lab and learn as much as we can about it, bounce ideas off of one another, and so on and so forth.

Take what you have, and mold it into whatever you want it to be.

 

[KieRanaRan]

Recently, casual means people who hate advanced techs, at least at the moment.

I think a lot of this 'hatred' isn't malicious, it just comes from a complete lack of interest in advanced techs from casual players.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I think a lot of this 'hatred' isn't malicious, it just comes from a complete lack of interest in advanced techs from casual players.

You'd be surprised in other threads and *gasp* YouTube comments.

But the latter is correct as well.

 

[KieRanaRan]

You'd be surprised in other threads and *gasp* YouTube comments.

But the latter is correct as well.

That's the internet for you!

 

[ImaClubYou]

That's the internet for you!

Look through some of the comments on Nintendo's official Invitational announcement. The comments there are just full of as.s.

 

[Hydde]

^ Some Smash fans are so entitled.

?

why u say that

 

[staindgrey]

I think a lot of this 'hatred' isn't malicious, it just comes from a complete lack of interest in advanced techs from casual players.

Yup. I have a multitude of friends who love Smash to death, but they aren't about to go to tournaments or practice. When I play with them, I have to go out of my way to pick characters I don't know and "accidentally" die a few times. It's still fun and they love the game, but it's for different reasons than I do.

Nothing at all wrong with that. In fact, I'd argue it's a huge positive for the series. I can't just casually play Street Fighter with my friends in the same way.

 

[Orngeblu]

I agree with this. I think melee is better for casuals than brawl is. If a casual player loses in melee, the response will likely be "dang you're good".

My impressions is: "Wtf you're using a glitch to win, ****ing cheater!"

Yeah.

But...I can agree with your Brawl argument. I played someone I met online, to an online Brawl match and he said I was cheating because I spammed grab. More than half of my grabs didn't even connect, and I was by all means NOT spamming grab. Scrubs, yo.

To answer the question in this thread: Definitely, this game will be played competitively, just as Brawled was played competitively as well. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't.

 

[EPsilon933]

Like i said before. Nintendo should try to emulate business models that are on the profit. Thjey are pretty much in a dire situation with their sales... and we all know that Smash 4 will be THE do or die game for WiiU. IN fact.. the system already is a failure.. but the sales of wiius and smash4s can somehow make up for it. Brawl was like the icing on the cake for the Wii. Smash 4 on the other hand is like the last of the mohicans to take an already sinking ship save into the shore.

Competitive gaming is the new exciting trend in the gaming market now. It's been explosively popular. Millions of people have seen last years LOL and DOTA2 championships and millions of $ have been given out to the winners of these events. It's far from being small http://www.esportsearnings.com/tournaments

We all know Lol is a onster on its own... the most successfull competitive game in history (in terms of acceptance and $$$ involved).

Smash will never ever get close to LoL, because for starters.. you need to buy a wiiu and a game to be able to play it, unlike LoL which is a free game focused on online play 24/7. but i feel that Nintendo NEEDS to pounce on this chance to make smash 4 something else--

Smash will never get close to LOL because it's not a free to play game. In LOL, you can buy skins that fund competitive gaming leagues. Riot gives away free stuff to con goers and people who are likely to be influential on the internet. The fans of those people will get to see Riot's fan service, which advertises their game (and fills their wallets). Also, 95% of everyone who plays LOL plays the same main mode. There is no barrier dividing competitive players from casuals like no items, banned stages, and the crazy counter pick system

They need to get out of their shells and realize that Nintendo as a company is getting old and fast..and they are not gaining any new customers with their games.

Nintendo jumped on the casual gaming market before anyone else did in the console market. Now they have good competition against them there and they lost their monopoly

Smash has a passionate community and the game can be attractive to spectators. I'm pretty sure that if they continued the melee gameplay trend... and Nintendo was daring to push the competitive scene..... the smash international scene and acceptance would have been a smashing success.

The barrier dividing gameplay into 2 popular modes makes an us-vs-them mentality between the 2 groups. There's more of a divide in interests. But the most loyal fans of the game, namely competitive smashers, would be influential online helping to promote the game. However, the competitive Smash scene is still tiny. There are like 50,000 users following VGBC on twich. There are like 11,500,000 people who bought Brawl. We are tiny compared to the whole audience

I know this will not happen anytime soon, maybe never will... but i feel that seriously Nintendo needs to analyze their situation and their position in the market. Smash is their most famous game by far in the last 15 years, and that's not a coincidence.

Best selling game on the Gamecube and 1 of the top 10 best selling games on the Wii. That's pretty good

IMO they are sleeping on their laurels. Just look at how efervecent the fans were in the Invitational.... I'm pretty sure Sakurai saw it, he felt it... He wants to deny it.. but he knows that out there , a lot of people see his game not only as a party game, but as a serious competitive one

He needs to stop being stubborn and just stop witch hunting the competitive players for the sake of casuals.. who in first place...never ever moaned about a game like melee. Casuals will always be casuals and play for fun. They will not get mad by getting ***** by pros.. because most casuals stay in their casual circle and will not go to compete in tournies and venues full of skilled peeps. But competitive players on the other hand.. get shafted hardcore by Sakurai's decisions---- and this is unfair because we are also customers...and the ones that hype the game the most at competitive levels.

Casual players have moaned about Melee and tournament rules. I've talked to those kinds of players in high school and they hate it. However, it is true that a lot of casuals will never notice nor take advantage of the hidden depth Smash can offer when playing to win. The presence of wavedashing didn't honestly affect them until they played against someone who knew how to do it. Finding someone who does know how is very unlikely to happen

 

[CRASHiC]

I agree with this. I think melee is better for casuals than brawl is. If a casual player loses in melee, the response will likely be "dang you're good". On the other hand, losing in brawl feels more like "camping with Meta Knight's tornado is cheap". Just camping in general probably feels more cheap and not as fun for a casual.

That says more about the Smash community than it does casuals, as its also rampant here.

I've been part of a lot of communities, I've flickered back and forth, I've run small local tournies for various games, ran a moderate size state wide Brawl tournament, participated in online tournaments, went to a Magic GP, helped out as volunteer staff at Civil War 5, participated in a lot of online and spectator communities.

While a disdain for defensive play from spectators is certainly not uncommon, I've never seen players insulted for this playstyle like I have in Smash. I was in the room when Chrig G took the stage at Civil War to unveil Morgana/Doom and the crowd went insane. On the same token, Hungrybox (Jigglypuff) and Aramada (Peach) GF at Apex receive widespread disdain, I recall hearing the phase "I hope we never have a Peach Jigglypuff grand final again." You see players directly insulted for defensive playstyles in this community. There is a huge stigma attached to it.


Also the idea that Melee is a good casual game is really isolated thinking. These games are often played in public settings, be it lan cafes, card shops, conventions, or university rec rooms. Games with huge technical skill caps do not do well in these environments. It is fun for neither party to either lower their level of play to child steps or know that your constant defeats are not coming out of a lack of knowledge but a sheer lack of time dedicated to the game that they have no desire to play for anything other than socializing.

 

[Hydde]

But my point remains that they should use smash FOR SOMETHING else just than selling copies and thats it. The game has so much wasted potential.
Yes, LoL its unbeatable because of the way they earn money... but still. Nintendo is no tiny business either. I think something can be figured out to take smash 4 and show everyone how good the game can be, just like LoL does...

but, in first place, the game should BE GOOD and appealing to everyone, casuals and pros alike, just like LoL.

Yes in, in LoL everyne gets destroyed everyday by someone who abuse certain current OP character... we all know there will be always people moaning and rage quitting games.... but every player, scrubs and pros...enjoy the game for what it is, regardless of them getting owned or not.

Theres the essence of a good game.

 

[EPsilon933]

Smashers complain about everything ultra hard. Everything is gay in this game. Maybe it's no wonder that we've been called childish?

But my point remains that they should use smash FOR SOMETHING else just than selling copies and that's it. The game has so much wasted potential.

Yes, LoL its unbeatable because of the way they earn money... but still. Nintendo is no tiny business either. I think something can be figured out to take smash 4 and show everyone how good the game can be, just like LoL does...

Advertising their other games might work. Fire Emblem had a few boosted sales in America simply because Marth and Roy were in Melee before any FE game arrived in the states

but, in first place, the game should BE GOOD and appealing to everyone, casuals and pros alike, just like LoL.

Yes in, in LoL everyne gets destroyed everyday by someone who abuse certain current OP character... we all know there will be always people moaning and rage quitting games.... but every player, scrubs and pros...enjoy the game for what it is, regardless of them getting owned or not.

There's the essence of a good game.

LOL, by itself, is a pretty good game I've heard. The real reason players quit is because of it's horrible community. Everyone yells at each other, including teammates. Characters are well balanced, but that's not entirely good (competitive) game design to constantly update everyone with buffs and nerfs. Even if a game is good, there will still be losers who are sore. Ragequitters are people who can't handle losing and there are plenty of ragequitters. Ideally, players would learn that losing is an ok thing and like the intrinsic reward from playing the game and think less results-based

 

[CRASHiC]

Smash also is composed of a lot of younger age people than most communities, especially at high level play oddly enough. Someone Hungrybox's age (at the time) makes national level play it's a front page story in other communities, here its another day in Smash.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Smashers complain about everything ultra hard. Everything is gay in this game. Maybe it's no wonder that we've been called childish?

And it's no less childish to complain because it isn't hard enough? I'm seriously really getting tired of everyone automatically thinking that because things are simplier that they're automatically worse. God forbid ANYTHING be easy. No, every player must spend years and years of dedicated practice or spend all of their time huddled away in their n00b caves, playing only with other n00bs and never showing their face in public events. The arrogance of some of the competitive community contributes to the view that Smashers are childish too.

Oh and the fact that we're playing a game in which Mario, Sonic, Pac-man and Mega-man can fight each other with Cuccos and taking it almost as seriously as people take multi-million dollar prize games such as LoL, doesn't help matters.

 

[CRASHiC]

You misread. He was saying that Smashers complain a lot, not that they complain about games not being super hard.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

You misread. He was saying that Smashers complain a lot, not that they complain about games not being super hard.

Maybe. The wording is obtuse, and that's what I got out of it. For what it's worth, if i did misread, then I am sorry.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

Really, stats suggest that a vast majority of people that play video games are casual. That's not to say developers shouldn't include more competative options, but it's hardly the priority unless that's the point of the game.

With that said, Sakurai and his team seem dedicated pleasing both sides based on E3. I think Smash will have good, solid competative scene.