Will Smash 4 Be Competitive?

[Eskelsen]

Gameplay wise, it definitely looks like it has a competitive edge. However, as pointed out by fighting game enthusiast Maximillian Dood, gameplay is only part of what makes a fighting game competitive. A huge portion of a game's competitiveness relies on the sum total of its online: how good the connection is, how ranking is handled, skill-based matchmaking, lobby systems, spectating, and more. I'm sure he'll have a video out soon on the subject.

I don't agree with that, I don't think you need online at all for a game to be truly competitive, although it might help. I think if this game has strong and balanced mechanics it will have a good competitive scene. But I'm still hyped for that Glory online mode.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Of course Smash 4 will be competitive. It already looks better than Brawl.

Also, LOL @ needing online play to be competitively viable.

 

[Dax]

The physics are more than melee on the wii u version but in 3ds version i see it's more like Brawl.

Also, i don't see Brawl or Melee speed... it's just Smash 4 speed.

The physics are nowhere near Melee. Take a good look at Sakurai's Megaman match or other footage. They're pretty close to brawl's.

 

[Renji64]

Well if you can combo without it being canceled out of off then yes. But can't actually without a real match.

 

[Priap0s]

The physics are nowhere near Melee. Take a good look at Sakurai's Megaman match or other footage. They're pretty close to brawl's.

Amazing how we can see the exact same gameplay footage so differently ^^
What I took from yesterdays direct was how fast and smooth it looks. I mean, I enjoy playing brawl, but I find watching it so booring. It just looks so slow, under-watery when spectating and this Smash4 footage doesn't remind me of that at all. If I had to sort it into "melee or brawl" as every one seem to do, I'd even go ahead and say I'd rather put it with melee (most of all, I'd like to put it in its own section though, the Smash4 section that is ). The rolls especially, seem to be extremly fast. Maybe that can help and make up a bit of the movement options lost with wavedashing being gone.

E3 is just around the corner now. I think it would be wise to wait untill then before trying to pass judgement on how this game will play (I am hoping and assuming that they will have playable demos on the E3-floor).



PS @ D Dax : In regards to the megaman vs mario match. That was almost a year ago. I think yesterdays footage is wiser to look at when discussing the game and its current state.

 

[Dax]

Well if you can combo without it being canceled out of off then yes. But can't actually without a real match.

But that has nothing to do with the physics. That depends only on whether Sakurai allowed to snap out of hitsun with a dodge or not, and currently it's not too clear.

Amazing how we can see the exact same gameplay footage so differently ^^
What I took from yesterdays direct was how fast and smooth it looks



PS @ D Dax : In regards to the megaman vs mario match. That was almost a year ago. I think yesterdays footage is wiser to look at when discussing the game and its current state.

Just to be clear, I don't play Brawl. Nothing against it, but it just gets boring with no combos for me.
I've played Melee for 7 years and I can assure you, that no Melee top player would tell you that the physics in the trailer are anywhere closer to Melee than Brawl. Just watch Mario or a character jumping.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think the 3DS version will just be for casual play most of the time. The Wii U version would be for the more competitive players, since if I recall right, I don't think a lot of people want to play competitively on a handheld system; if the Mario Kart series means anything, more people seem to do Mario Kart Wii online than Mario Kart 7.

 

[VhatDeHel]

But that has nothing to do with the physics. That depends only on whether Sakurai allowed to snap out of hitsun with a dodge or not, and currently it's not too clear.



Just to be clear, I don't play Brawl. Nothing against it, but it just gets boring with no combos for me.
I've played Melee for 7 years and I can assure you, that no Melee top player would tell you that the physics in the trailer are anywhere closer to Melee than Brawl. Just watch Mario or a character jumping.

Just so you know, yes, you can still, at this moment, airdodge out of hitstun. You can see it in the section about Rosalina. However, I'm hoping cause the gameplay is faster that maybe you can still play around this concept. Like maybe you could predict that someone is gonna airdodge and then punish them accordingly since their momentum will still be around the same. Also it looks like characters die a bit earlier anyway. So maybe moves are more powerful, or characters are lighter.

 

[Priap0s]

Just to be clear, I don't play Brawl. Nothing against it, but it just gets boring with no combos for me. I've played Melee for 7 years and I can assure you, that no Melee top player would tell you that the physics in the trailer are anywhere closer to Melee than Brawl. Just watch Mario or a character jumping.

Just to be clear: I have played melee since close after its release and only ever play brawl when I game with a friend of mine (he owns it and likes it but he doesn't care for melee). While I myself vastly prefer melee, I think Brawl is alrigt to play from time to time but as said; I find it a drag to watch. Thats why this stands out to me, I don't think this looks the same at all = )
So I have played melee for 12 years, brawl not that much but some from time to time since its release. And again I tell you, by just watching (wich ofcourse can be desceptive) I see this game very different from what you do (even if you have played melee for 7 years and claim that every pro player views it the same way you do. Wich is a bit of an arrogant claim btw? ). And I still would say I think this game looks slightly more melee-esque then brawl-esque. Most of all it looks Smash4-esque though!



So let's agree to disagree. But yeah, short clips and trailers can decieve. Mostly I just want to see a full match being played again before I'd be comfortable discussing this further... Like a real match, for example gaming journalists playing at E3. That will be the real chance to get a grasp of how the game plays without testing it ourselves.

 

[ReddMudkipz]

It's gonna be inherently competitive since it's a smash game but idk if its gonna be as competitive as melee. I've yet to see tripping so that's a good sign but there seems to be some balance issues (looking at you Little Mac and custom movesets). Hopefully, this can be treated like Street Fighter or League of Legends where continuous balance changes is a thing.

 

[Dax]

Just so you know, yes, you can still, at this moment, airdodge out of hitstun. You can see it in the section about Rosalina. However, I'm hoping cause the gameplay is faster that maybe you can still play around this concept. Like maybe you could predict that someone is gonna airdodge and then punish them accordingly since their momentum will still be around the same. Also it looks like characters die a bit earlier anyway. So maybe moves are more powerful, or characters are lighter.

I've seen it but it's confusing. It definitely seem to happen quickly so I'm not expecting anything. But there may be a tiny chance that you can't do it as immediately as you could in Brawl... or maybe not.
Also yes, I get your point about predicting but I think you can do that in Brawl too sometimes, but it's still a bit boring to me.

Just to be clear: I have played melee since close after its release and only ever play brawl when I game with a friend of mine (he owns it and likes it but he doesn't care for melee). While I myself vastly prefer melee, I think Brawl is alrigt to play from time to time but as said; I find it a drag to watch. Thats why this stands out to me, I don't think this looks the same at all = )
So I have played melee for 12 years, brawl not that much but some from time to time since its release. And again I tell you, by just watching (wich ofcourse can be desceptive) I see this game very different from what you do (even if you have played melee for 7 years and claim that every pro player views it the same way you do. Wich is a bit of an arrogant claim btw? ). And I still would say I think this game looks slightly more melee-esque then brawl-esque. Most of all it looks Smash4-esque though!

Sorry, did not want to sound arrogant but just straight, so let me apologize.
My advice would be to ask some of these top players yourself, I guess. Did you play Melee competitively?
The thing is, allow me point you to some direct examples: http://youtu.be/6U5wJAbq-3s?t=1m12s
look at Mario recovering and a few second later at Bowser. Watch how slowass he is at falling at 1.25
http://youtu.be/6U5wJAbq-3s?t=1m55s look at samus: she may be a floaty in Melee but you can't go anywhere like that

Overall, I don't think the physics of the game game have changed since last year's Sakurai test match :/

 

[PadWarrior]

Yup Smash 4 just like the rest of the Smash games will be competitive.

 

[DaDavid]

The physics are more than melee on the wii u version but in 3ds version i see it's more like Brawl.

Also, i don't see Brawl or Melee speed... it's just Smash 4 speed.

Exactly. It doesn't look all that comparable to one or the other. I mean obviously they've the same roots, but watching the clips I get a different sense than from watching Brawl or Melee.

 

[Exia 00]

Its not about the physics being like melee or brawl. If the game is fun, people will play it.

When the opportunity presents itself, people will complain.

To answer the OP, yes it will but it is rare a game comes out air-tight (or without issues)

 

[Takehiko]

I disagree. Online adds to a game's competitiveness but I don't think it is huge portion of it. Look at Melee, it's heralded as the most competitive Smash and it has no online. 64 managed to be competitive with no online. Brawl wasn't made more casual because it had bad online, infact even with it's slower gameplay it still became competitive.

True, but consider this fact. SF:3rd strike had a large community, but because of the time of the game being out for 10 years and the only way to associate with the community was to go to tournys with people who have been whipping buttocks in this game for a while, and this was daunting to people. But when they brought out Online mode for the game then more people started to come into the community. This is also what happened to SF2:HDR when snake eyes a new pro won because online mode encouraged him and many others to get involved with the community through the online

. Further, I think this online this time will make the game competitive like what has happened to SF4 and UMVC3 which is the reason we even have the term Online Warrior. Because being online has allowed players to learn match-ups and thus improve their overall online play.

 

[FlowinWater]

Gameplay wise, it definitely looks like it has a competitive edge. However, as pointed out by fighting game enthusiast Maximillian Dood, gameplay is only part of what makes a fighting game competitive. A huge portion of a game's competitiveness relies on the sum total of its online: how good the connection is, how ranking is handled, skill-based matchmaking, lobby systems, spectating, and more. I'm sure he'll have a video out soon on the subject.

I disagree, what made melee so great was its huge skill gap and players character progression. Like previous posters have said, this game will be competetive because is a smash game, will it have that appeal that melee had though? Let's wait and see. Gameplay mechanics are the most important first, online helps in a way, but the disparity between melee and brawl is proof enough and what is most important. Brawl was boring to me, didn't have the freedom and speed of melee, this game to me at least, already looks better than Brawl! Really stoked to play it!

HOLLA

 

[Revven]

Just so you know, yes, you can still, at this moment, airdodge out of hitstun. You can see it in the section about Rosalina. However, I'm hoping cause the gameplay is faster that maybe you can still play around this concept. Like maybe you could predict that someone is gonna airdodge and then punish them accordingly since their momentum will still be around the same. Also it looks like characters die a bit earlier anyway. So maybe moves are more powerful, or characters are lighter.

I'm going to have to ask you to post the .gif or timestamp of where you saw this because every single video reveal or video of Smash 4 hasn't had it happen. The only times the characters air dodge anywhere near hitstun is the action after hitstun, the tumble state, which is supposed to be air dodged out of, jumped out of and etc. And whenever that happens, it's always been as soon as the tumble state is beginning which means it's a CPU and if they're using the same AI routines as Brawl then they're programmed to be mashing L/R to air dodge during hitstun but because you probably can't in Smash 4 they air dodge on the very first frame possible of the tumble animation.

But like I said I need to see this clip you're talking about and I've watched every single video and looked very carefully myself multiple times -- not once has a single character air dodged out of hitstun.

Edit: I found it, never mind http://youtu.be/7xUWnQu2Grs?t=24m19s

It's definitely not him canceling hitstun with an air dodge, it's the tumble state.

 

[VhatDeHel]

I'm going to have to ask you to post the .gif or timestamp of where you saw this because every single video reveal or video of Smash 4 hasn't had it happen. The only times the characters air dodge anywhere near hitstun is the action after hitstun, the tumble state, which is supposed to be air dodged out of, jumped out of and etc. And whenever that happens, it's always been as soon as the tumble state is beginning which means it's a CPU and if they're using the same AI routines as Brawl then they're programmed to be mashing L/R to air dodge during hitstun but because you probably can't in Smash 4 they air dodge on the very first frame possible of the tumble animation.

But like I said I need to see this clip you're talking about and I've watched every single video and looked very carefully myself multiple times -- not once has a single character air dodged out of hitstun.

Edit: I found it, never mind http://youtu.be/7xUWnQu2Grs?t=24m19s

It's definitely not him canceling hitstun with an air dodge, it's the tumble state.

Hm, maybe you're right, maybe they can't airdodge quite as quickly as before. But in Melee and PM, you can't airdodge out of tumbling. You can in Brawl. I think that's a dumb mechanic. One, because it allows you to act quickly out of getting hit, and two, it just looks unpleasant. To me, it looks stupid when you hit someone and instead of them being in a painful animation, they're just airdodging and going back to neutral but still flying around. It just looks lame, as if me hitting my opponent didn't do anything to them cause they just airdodge and they're out of it.

 

[J1NG]

I think the more important question is whether or not Smash 4 will have the same longevity as Melee, and I'm sure we've had that discussion on these boards before. You could argue that 64 has enjoyed the longest lifespan in the series, but I don't think anyone would deny that Melee's scene is by and far more popular.
As long as Smash 4 has enough content and mechanics for competitive players to discover and utilize, I think it will do OK in the competitive scene, though I don't know if it will be enough to dethrone Melee or Project M.

 

[Deku_Don]

If we all made something out of Brawl, then I think it's safe to say that from what we've seen so far, we can make something out of 4 too.

It won't replace Melee/P:M, but I think they'll all have scenes which will go well together.

 

[RODO]

I think we can all agree that Sakurai seems to have thought about combos a lot more than in brawl. You can see evidence of this in vids and even that pic of the day with pikachu's thunder ability. If he has gone through the game trying to see what combos he could pull off, if this game is anything like brawl was then he'd find out pretty quickly that half of these combos aren't viable due to the air dodge. I'm hoping that he sees that and adjusts it accordingly.

 

[Raycen]

They've eliminated tripping.
Now the characters don't float like balloons.
The magnets from the edges lost its power and all the hooks were eliminated.
Increased the speed (Specially in Wii U version).
Awesome FOR GLORY online.

God damn, it will stay much longer than Brawl.

 

[Priap0s]

Sorry, did not want to sound arrogant but just straight, so let me apologize.
My advice would be to ask some of these top players yourself, I guess. Did you play Melee competitively?
The thing is, allow me point you to some direct examples: http://youtu.be/6U5wJAbq-3s?t=1m12s
look at Mario recovering and a few second later at Bowser. Watch how slowass he is at falling at 1.25
http://youtu.be/6U5wJAbq-3s?t=1m55s look at samus: she may be a floaty in Melee but you can't go anywhere like that

Overall, I don't think the physics of the game game have changed since last year's Sakurai test match :/

Well, sorry about going aggresive in my answer. Just thought you where assuming that I was some guy that never played melee and I found you sounding a bit condescending Not sure if I should say I have played melee competetively or not. There isn't much of an alive competetive community where I live, but I've gotten a few tournaments in. Also I have a mate who is very close to me skill wise so we use to play/train alot. So, pseudo-competetive I guess? ^^

I do agree about Samus, thing I hate is we can't compare anything without getting hands on. Maybe Samus has been redesigned to be floatier? We can't know for sure. Alot of other characters, I'd say have gotten a significant increase in their falling speed since Brawl, from the looks of it.
One thing I noticed that is great for analyzing however, is that people have a dust/cloud trail after them while in hit stun! So far I haven't seen a single sequense where anyone performs an airdodge during it. Every time someoen does, they do it shortly after the trails dissapears and the character has entered a tumbling state. That is huge to me. I think Brawls nonsense with cutting hit stun was what made the game slow, even more so then the floatiness or speed. That being out, combined with atleast a small addition to speed, momentum and falling is enough for me too consider this more towards melee than Brawl.

But yeah, I really don't want to label it. It's a game in its own right!

 

[SSBBDaisy]

I'm just trying to be realistic here.

I keep seeing posts of people saying that there is hitstun like Melee. If I were you I would rewatch the trailer again.

It's exactly like brawl's hitstun. Everything is looking exactly like brawl

- Magnetic ledges that looks like they work exactly like brawls.
- The hitstun (in brawl there were combos but not like melee at all. ex: Peach dair>uair>utilt, MK uair strings to up b, fox's utilt strings) all of these are sdi able.
- Different characters could get comboed more easily. Like fox and Link which were both shown being comboed. (I know comboed isn't a word idc)

The differences I'm seeing are that you die earlier like in Melee and the new ledge mechanic sakurai talked about in one of his pic of the days.




OVERALL, I just hope Melee players will give this game a chance even tho it's not what they want. I really don't like the communities being divided like everyone else doesn't. But people have their preferences.

 

[Priap0s]

I keep seeing posts of people saying that there is hitstun like Melee. If I were you I would rewatch the trailer again.

It's exactly like brawl's hitstun. Everything is looking exactly like brawl

- Magnetic ledges that looks like they work exactly like brawls.
- The hitstun (in brawl there were combos but not like melee at all. ex: Peach dair>uair>utilt, MK uair strings to up b, fox's utilt strings) all of these are sdi able.
- Different characters could get comboed more easily. Like fox and Link which were both shown being comboed. (I know comboed isn't a word idc)

Can't really agree with this.

- The thing is you can cancel Brawls hitstun after x (short ammount, forgot exact specs) number of frames. The hitstun in itself was never the problem (it was the same as in melee even?). Being able to cancle it prematurely was. There has been no shown example of hitstun canceling so far for this game. Every dodge, tumbling-state or jump, after getting hit that has been shown so far was initiated after the hitstun ended. (We can see this thanks to the dust/cloud trail that seem to follow people who are in hitstun in Smash4).

- And I don't know about this, maybe I'm blind, but to me the ledges look far less magnetic than in brawl? You can still grab with your back towards them and they seem a bit more magnetic then melees though.

- Wich characters that are comboed easily with what and so on... I have no clue, need to play the game for that. Atleast we can see if a combo could have been dodged or jumped out of since we see the little cloud trail, that represents hitstun, trailing behind struck characters. When it dissapears, they can perform an action. If hit before, it's a legit combo (depending on how well you could DI out of it ofcourse. But that we can't know until playing either).

 

[DaDavid]

Yeah the only obviously "just like Brawl" thing so far is the air dodge.

In literally every other aspect it looks like it's own thing, not really fully comparable to Melee or Brawl.

 

[Nippo]

People still play ALL smash games competitively to this day. It's a yes.

This. Brawl had no right to be competitive, and yet it was. People will squeeze blood from a stone if the game is popular enough.

 

[Renji64]

It looks similar to brawl in some aspects but seems to be shaping up to be it's own thing but it is really hard to tell everything at this point. I just need to know if the game has combos and how it works before i pre-order.

 

[Smash_Veteran_Amtoj]

Sakurai is definitely showing some love for hardcore players this time. Hopefully we see footage of a full match soon.

 

[DaDavid]

Sadly we probably won't ever get a full match before launch. Chances are we won't see this game in action at all until E3.

At any rate, it looks less like Brawl 2.0 and more like a natural progression from Brawl, which is a huge difference if you ask me.

 

[OptimistNic]

The physics are more than melee on the wii u version but in 3ds version i see it's more like Brawl.

Also, i don't see Brawl or Melee speed... it's just Smash 4 speed.

The mechanics are exactly the same on both versions.

I could care less about L-cancelling and Wavedashing as long as inputs are responsive and jumping and running act quickly, and combo flows can be speedy.

It's fast, but it's a perfectly digestible kind of fast.

Why is everyone convinced that the 3DS version is slower than the Wii U version? From all of the footage I've seen of the 3DS version, it's never to showcase any combos, but just casual play with 2-4 players.
The Wii U footage was the only version that ever showcased a character at their best with crazy combos. Also, of course they would showcase the Wii U version for all of the best stuff anyway.

It wouldn't seem right that both versions have different mechanics. That's sort of betraying Sakurai's goal and it's more effort than it's worth regardless.

Whatever the case I hope the game supports the Circle Pad Pro so I can have C-Stick and Z button replacements. On the Wii U version I'd be fine with the Classic Controller (it surprisingly works well in Project M).

 

[SpiderJerusalem]

Of course it will be competitive. What a silly question.

 

[Empyrean]

Besides the obvious transition of the Brawl community to Smash 4, this game will probably attract a brand new competitive audience. I even heard of people from other games in the fgc wanting to join Smash through this title. In the early years at least, the Smash 4 competitive community will most probably be a hybrid of Melee, Brawl, PM and new players.

This game will be competitive no matter what happens, even if the Melee community ends up not supporting it much. I mean, just look at Brawl. Sure, the situation is not too good now, but it had a strong run, considering the lack of support it suffered from. I may not like the game as much now, but I sure do respect its players for not backing down and continuing to play the game they liked.

 

[ImaClubYou]

The physics are more than melee on the wii u version but in 3ds version i see it's more like Brawl.

Also, i don't see Brawl or Melee speed... it's just Smash 4 speed.

If nothing but Little Mac, his jab finisher to Up Special is extremely fast, even slowed down in this GIF.

 

[Priap0s]

Is there a reason for Mario to drop his shield, turn around towards Mac and raise it again when Mac rolls behind him? Do shield block more in front of your character than your back? It seems Mario tries to do the same thing again when Mac rolls back, but then he got punished for dropping it. Also, Mario drops shield, turns around and shields again pretty darn fast. Not sure if I'm digging that good out of shield options, having to shield cause you are getting pressured heavily should be disadvantageous imo.

But maybe I'm seeing it wrong. If there is some one in here with better knowledge regarding shields and out of shield options, I'd appreciate your input!

 

[Shaya]

Shield drop into turn around reshield is a staple buffering skill in brawl, as with good timing it is a 7 frame action that lets you be on the correct side to grab them :D

I do it in melee/pm too. Its just less amazing on average due to longer shield drop lag.

So when I saw that shot of Mario doing drop shield into turn around shield, I felt that was them showing a solid option when people are crossing you up (with rolls or otherwise), but it then shows Mario being out feinted by a roll back (lol). Kinda screams Brawl buffering moment to me.

 

[Priap0s]

Ofcourse, turn around to have grab out of shield option. Silly me for not thinking of that!

So this looks to be the same shield drop rate as Brawl, aye? Don't think I'm a fan of that. As I said earlier, I prefer that shielding is a thing you get forced into when pressured and therefor should not be optimal to be in/should be rewarding for the opponent to have forced you into. The options out of it should be a bit more disadvantageous or limited imo. Guess we will have to wait till we play the game (or till someone skilled does a frame by frame comparison to brawl/melee) to get a feel for how it plays out in this one

 

[RODO]

I wouldn't be worried about shield drop rates til we play the game and know exactly how it factors in.

 

[ChikoLad]

Yes, Smash 4 will be competitive. By the dictionary definition of the word, it is. Especially with it's online mode.

As a traditional tournament game though, it all depends on the willingness of tournament organisers to make tournaments for the game. I also would see it as ideal if the Melee elitists didn't try to slam the game just because they feel Melee is superior when it comes out. I don't think they'll do this as badly as with Brawl (heck, even if Smash 4 was just Brawl without tripping, that'd be a huge improvement in itself). In the end, Smash 4 is looking to be totally competitively viable. It won't be as "fast" as Melee, but that doesn't make it less competitive. Characters like Rosalina, Villager, Little Mac and Mega Man seem like they will add some really interesting flair to the competitive scene. While everyone felt fast in Melee, and everyone felt a bit clunky in Brawl, Smash 4 seems to a be soild pace all around, but then characters that are supposed to be fast (like Sonic) look like they were taken out of Melee or PM, while characters like Villager seem kind of Brawl-ish in terms of the speed of their moves and their movement speed, but that is completely justified, as Villager's playstyle does not emphasise traditional, madly fast combos, but new kinds of combos that involve setting up traps. When Villager was shown in the Developer Direct at E3, he trapped a character with his shovel, jumped up to a platfrom, and dropped a bowling ball on them. This all happened within two or three seconds, but despite there being only two attacks involved, and both being at opposite ends of the time frame, Sakurai actually referred to this as a combo. This implies that it's not like Melee where you have to constantly train your reflexes and form combos that require split second decision making, but it doesn't rely to heavily on pre-determined camping strategies or anything like in Brawl, where projectile/trap users were generally better than other characters (Meta Knight and Ice Climbers being exceptions). Smash 4 seems to just emphasise both methods of play, but with different characters emphasising either method more than others, which will probably make this the most diverse Smash game yet in terms of competitively viable characters, and will make the competitive scene easier to get into for those who can't into Melee or PM.

That being said, the Bandai Namco influence is certainly there, since their fighters are like this too.

 

[Empyrean]

As far as TOs are concerned, that is not much of an issue. I believe @Keitaro already said that he wants to become the most prominent Smash 4 TO, so others are most likely to follow suite.