Will Smash 4 Be Competitive?

[A Lucky Person]

It'll be a very competitive game for sure.

I'm incredibly pumped up about the online due to the fact that I only have a couple friends who play with me (and we're very competitive), so my play-style in Brawl has adapted to what characters they use and how they play. Also I can only play when they want to, since I want to play all the time.

Online will be a way for me to challenge many other people so that I can test all sorts of match-ups, strategies, and techniques on human players whenever I want.

I just hope the 3DS connectivity isn't super laggy (lol Brawl).

 

[Keitaro]

I dunno about most prominent But I'd like to help create the standard ruleset for Smash 4. One that is fast, fun, and not gay lol.

 

[MasterofMonster]

^ you do know that Fun and Gay means the same, right? Contradiction.

Ahem. Yes, of course it will be competetive.
And I Think the Melee-hardcores will be able to survive not having Wavedashing and such. Plus, this game looks pretty darn fast, and it seems it will be very balanced. Will be nice to see Serious battles that doesn't only use Fox, Falco, Falcon and Marth.

 

[Zach R.]

^ you do know that Fun and Gay means the same, right? Contradiction.

Ahem. Yes, of course it will be competetive.
And I Think the Melee-hardcores will be able to survive not having Wavedashing and such. Plus, this game looks pretty darn fast, and it seems it will be very balanced. Will be nice to see Serious battles that doesn't only use Fox, Falco, Falcon and Marth.

How about: Jigglypuff, Sheik, Peach, Ice Climbers, Samus, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Pikachu, Yoshi, Luigi, Young Link, Mario...? All characters I've seen at high-level play (used against top-caliber players at a relatively successful level). Sure, is the game perfectly balanced? No, but I would easily say that there are a dozen characters (roughly half the cast) that are perfectly viable in competitive play, and a couple of others who make decent counterpick options (Young Link). People only quit their characters because their excuse for why they're losing is the character. That's why they don't improve in Melee. But I agree, I think the Melee community will be fine minus advanced technical maneuvers like Wavedashing, L-canceling, etc. All anybody wants is fast, exciting gameplay that contains some kind of comboing ability (it's called hit-stun, Nintendo).

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

IMO this game will be better than Melee.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Eh, i'd be on board that too. Except y'know i'd let homosexuals, bisexuals and heterosexuals play! *bad joke sorry*

But although I've been less involved with past games, I want to help expand the tourney scene and help with rules in Smash 4 too, at least in Ontario (That's the province Toronto's in if you didn't know ) and, eventually, Canada.

 

[Zach R.]

One of the things that made Melee so fast and fun is L-cancelling. Full length landing animations make for a slower and less combo centric game. Attacks being fast on the ground with low endlag like Mac's make the game look fast, but Smash is so cool because of the way aerial physics work. From what I've seen, landlag seems to be longer than an L-cancel but I'm seeing them to be significantly shorter than Brawl. Hence my Brawl+ comment. Saying the attacks were faster wasn't a very descriptive way of putting that lol, but I do think combos and interesting competitive play are potentials here from what I'm seeing.

To be fair, Brawl's lack of comboing ability stems from the ability to universally cancel all hitstun after (I believe, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) 20 frames. Non-existent hitstun really prevents combos lol

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Eh, i'd be on board that too. Except y'know i'd let homosexuals, bisexuals and heterosexuals play! *bad joke sorry*

But although I've been less involved with past games, I want to help expand the tourney scene and help with rules in Smash 4 too, at least in Ontario (That's the province Toronto's in if you didn't know ) and, eventually, Canada.

i watch ur video analysis and loved it now i learn u not only live in canada but ontario? Awesome same as me Xd

 

[RelaxAlax]

i watch ur video analysis and loved it now i learn u not only live in canada but ontario? Awesome same as me Xd

Thank you! And that's great. I'm so interested in finding ways to up the smash scene here. But anyways, i'll PM you.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Thank you! And that's great. I'm so interested in finding ways to up the smash scene here. But anyways, i'll PM you.

Look forward to it!

 

[Gameboi834]

The physics are nowhere near Melee. Take a good look at Sakurai's Megaman match or other footage. They're pretty close to brawl's.

Yes, look at the year-old footage, not the footage they're just now giving us. Makes perfect sense.

 

[[TSON]]

To be fair, Brawl's lack of comboing ability stems from the ability to universally cancel all hitstun after (I believe, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) 20 frames. Non-existent hitstun really prevents combos lol

From my analysis, it looks that the hitstun cancelling isn't returning, that's why I hadn't mentioned it

 

[MasterofMonster]

How about: Jigglypuff, Sheik, Peach, Ice Climbers, Samus, Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Pikachu, Yoshi, Luigi, Young Link, Mario...? All characters I've seen at high-level play (used against top-caliber players at a relatively successful level). Sure, is the game perfectly balanced? No, but I would easily say that there are a dozen characters (roughly half the cast) that are perfectly viable in competitive play, and a couple of others who make decent counterpick options (Young Link). People only quit their characters because their excuse for why they're losing is the character. That's why they don't improve in Melee. But I agree, I think the Melee community will be fine minus advanced technical maneuvers like Wavedashing, L-canceling, etc. All anybody wants is fast, exciting gameplay that contains some kind of comboing ability (it's called hit-stun, Nintendo).

Well of course you can win with pretty much all characters if you try. But there is still mostly space animals and pretty boys at the top. XD
I've seen a lot of battles on that VGBootcamp and such, a lot of very competetive battles. But I've not seen any fights at all with Ness, Kirby, and G&W.

Anyways, I am sure Smash 4 will be competetive.

 

[Joe73191]

As long as it isn't floaty, we have decent non-cancelable hit stun and various movement options it will be a huge success.

 

[D-idara]

Sakurai: Here's fast-rolls and lower landing lag overall.
Melee Etilists: Nah, we want wavedash! This game's Brawl 2.0 gg...we don't want another version of a previous game, oh wait...

Sakurai: Here's flat versions of all stages.
Melee Etilists: We feel like you're making fun of competitive players.

Mom: Sweetie, here's this 2000$ dress you wanted for the prom.
Daughter: Mom! That's not the exact shade of purple I wanted, my life is ruined, I hate you!.

Basically what I've collected on my two weeks of absence from Smashboards' reactions to the Direct news. Seriously guys...even looking at the trailer, you can see that this game feels much more fast-paced than Brawl, even though it's not Melee 2.0 (Not that any reasonable Smash player wants it to be Melee 2.0 or Brawl 2.0) you can see that Sakurai's working to give movement options without compromising the simplicity of the game, which was what Brawl aimed to do with gameplay but didn't quite get right. I said it back when I watched the Little Mac trailer, I love how this game looks fast (Melee) but fluid (Brawl) and tries to work on both games' shortcomings. Melee was fast to the point of being twitchy and wonky but Brawl was slow to the point of becoming boring, so a middleground's perfect.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Sakurai: Here's fast-rolls and lower landing lag overall.
Melee Etilists: Nah, we want wavedash! This game's Brawl 2.0 gg...we don't want another version of a previous game, oh wait...

Sakurai: Here's flat versions of all stages.
Melee Etilists: We feel like you're making fun of competitive players.

Mom: Sweetie, here's this 2000$ dress you wanted for the prom.
Daughter: Mom! That's not the exact shade of purple I wanted, my life is ruined, I hate you!.

Basically what I've collected on my two weeks of absence from Smashboards' reactions to the Direct news. Seriously guys...even looking at the trailer, you can see that this game feels much more fast-paced than Brawl, even though it's not Melee 2.0 (Not that any reasonable Smash player wants it to be Melee 2.0 or Brawl 2.0) you can see that Sakurai's working to give movement options without compromising the simplicity of the game, which was what Brawl aimed to do with gameplay but didn't quite get right. I said it back when I watched the Little Mac trailer, I love how this game looks fast (Melee) but fluid (Brawl) and tries to work on both games' shortcomings. Melee was fast to the point of being twitchy and wonky but Brawl was slow to the point of becoming boring, so a middleground's perfect.

Question

Why does the individual who makes a notable observation have to be a "Melee elitist"? Further, you make the comparison to a spoiled daughter? Because last time I checked, Final Destination isn't the best stage for everyone, and characters with a strong neutral game will dominate and outzone most characters, which is why having other neutral options like battlefield and Smashville would help balance match ups. You don't see me calling you a "Casual Brawl Scrub" for not knowing this, do you?

And if I recall correctly, Final Destination was also in Brawl, so you don't need to baselessly target players with your bull****. It doesn't matter how fast the game moves, it's the engine; the foundation on which the game was built upon that matters. Many people would have accepted Brawl's speed if the engine wasn't the way it is.

Yes, the game looks good, but don't single people out as the prime suspect or create baseless accusations to start an argument.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Question

Why does the individual who makes a notable observation have to be a "Melee elitist"? Further, you make the comparison to a spoiled daughter? Because last time I checked, Final Destination isn't the best stage for everyone, and characters with a strong neutral game will dominate and outzone most characters.

Sorry but nothing you said here is concrete because since smash 4 is a different game we are all working under the assumption the Smash 4 will be balanced to where all characters operate at optimum competitive capabilities on FD . (unless what you have inside information that says other wise.)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Sorry but nothing you said here is concrete because since smash 4 is a different game we are all working under the assumption the Smash 4 will be balanced to where all characters operate at optimum competitive capabilities on FD . (unless what you have inside information that says other wise.)

The fact that it's a new game won't make everything change completely. The fact that it is running on the same proprietary engine as it's previous games and not playing as a game akin to something like Tekken is enough of an observation.

Characters who have dominate range game will have an outstanding advantage. A character match up like Falco vs a non-projectile character will be favorable to Falco because there are no platforms for a character to maneuver around. If you wanted to optimize every character to be good on FD they would all have Falco's laser, Marth's Fair and Little Mac's dash,but that's not going to happen. And while it is very possible that all characters and the engine could be optimized for FD that would shake the foundation of the game since 90%+ of the stages in smash operate with multiple platforms.

In doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some characters have advantages match ups on FD.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The fact that it's a new game won't make everything change completely. The fact that it is running on the same proprietary engine as it's previous games and not playing as a game akin to something like Tekken is enough of an observation.

Characters who have dominate range game will have an outstanding advantage. A character match up like Falco vs a non-projectile character will be favorable to Falco because there are no platforms for a character to maneuver around. If you wanted to optimize every character to be good on FD they would all have Falco's laser, Marth's Fair and Little Mac's dash,but that's not going to happen. And while it is very possible that all characters and the engine could be optimized for FD that would shake the foundation of the game since 90%+ of the stages in smash operate with multiple platforms.

In doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that some characters have advantages match ups on FD.

Hmm this is why i wish the american meta was the same as the Japanese. There are plenty of fighting games that have rush downs and zoners. on flat ground and it dose not seem to be a problem for them.

and fundamentally if the developer wanted to balance the game competitively off FD it really is not rocket science to fix it.
There will be always counter characters, but if their is no longer the messy need for counter stages and i feel that's much better for the competitive community.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Hmm this is why i wish the american meta was the same as the Japanese. There are plenty of fighting games that have rush downs and zoners. on flat ground and it dose not seem to be a problem for them.

and fundamentally if the developer wanted to balance the game competitively off FD it really is not rocket science to fix it.
There will be always counter characters, but if their is no longer the messy need for counter stages and i feel that's much better for the competitive community.

This is true, but Smash has unique properties that aren't retained by the boundary limits established by traditional fighting games, there are obvious similarities, and similarities that exist which are equivalent in smash to that of what 2D fighter has.

The Japanese meta game is indeed much more solid than ours and they find ways around obvious flaws, however, they are much more competitive and (arguably) smarter players com paired to the majority here.

While some characters do have advantages based on stage counter picks, it doesn't make the match impossible. But you don't want the game to feel as certain match ups are more difficult, but require a unique approach, a more rewarding inclination in a match up.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

This is true, but Smash has unique properties that aren't retained by the boundary limits established by traditional fighting games, there are obvious similarities, and similarities that exist which are equivalent in smash to that of what 2D fighter has.

The Japanese meta game is indeed much more solid than ours and they find ways around obvious flaws, however, they are much more competitive and (arguably) smarter players com paired to the majority here.

While some characters do have advantages based on stage counter picks, it doesn't make the match impossible. But you don't want the game to feel as certain match ups are more difficult, but require a unique approach, a more rewarding inclination in a match up.

Yeah if smash 4 is as balanced as i hope it to be than once your good with a character than things like counter characters and such become less problematic especially if you fight those characters alot.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Aren't their things like being able to slice through projectiles now? Maintaining an offense through things like that should be easier now, right?

 

[Renji64]

Smash 4 is shapping up nicely time will tell looks can be deceiving learn that lesson with brawl.

 

[S_B]

After watching the recent nintendo direct, I wanted to hear everyones opinion on the potential competitive nature of the new smash based on what was seen.

Yes.

And I also base it on the fact that there's a real fighting game development team with a real eye for balance behind it, unlike Brawl where Sakurai was all "tripping!!!!! TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!"

 

[Dax]

Yes, look at the year-old footage, not the footage they're just now giving us. Makes perfect sense.

It makes so much sense that I wrote OR OTHER FOOTAGE.
It would be nice if, next time, you spend a moment to actually read the whole thread.
http://smashboards.com/threads/will-smash-4-be-competitive.351995/page-2#post-16590766

 

[New_Dumal]

The gameplay seems nice to competitive .The only thing that can hurt this game too much is balance.
A game between Brawl and Melee is exactly what I always wanted to a Smash-game.
And what we learned from Brawl is that even when the gameplay was made to be no-competitive, we found our "very special way".
BUT.... MK hurts Brawl too much(I play with him , so I'm guilty). There will be a character Mk-ish powerfull this time around ?
Sakurai is giving buffs to Lucario,Diddy and Marth and saying nothing about chars that need it, like Mario or Link.
Let's see what the final product will be.

I'm very positive.

 

[Renji64]

The gameplay seems nice to competitive .The only thing that can hurt this game too much is balance.
A game between Brawl and Melee is exactly what I always wanted to a Smash-game.
And what we learned from Brawl is that even when the gameplay was made to be no-competitive, we found our "very special way".
BUT.... MK hurts Brawl too much(I play with him , so I'm guilty). There will be a character Mk-ish powerfull this time around ?
Sakurai is giving buffs to Lucario,Diddy and Marth and saying nothing about chars that need it, like Mario or Link.
Let's see what the final product will be.

I'm very positive.

I'm hoping mario will be getting some good changes i don't wanna drop him for good i can't deal with dat down b and the way he was in brawl.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

The gameplay seems nice to competitive .The only thing that can hurt this game too much is balance.
A game between Brawl and Melee is exactly what I always wanted to a Smash-game.
And what we learned from Brawl is that even when the gameplay was made to be no-competitive, we found our "very special way".
BUT.... MK hurts Brawl too much(I play with him , so I'm guilty). There will be a character Mk-ish powerfull this time around ?
Sakurai is giving buffs to Lucario,Diddy and Marth and saying nothing about chars that need it, like Mario or Link.
Let's see what the final product will be.

I'm very positive.

Well to be fair he definitely talked about bowser and dedede.

 

[New_Dumal]

Well to be fair he definitely talked about bowser and dedede.

Bowser being competitive-playable this time is really a improvement.D3 wasn't a critical case in Brawl, just in the metagame.
And to be yet more fair he spokes about DK too ... saying he is truly strong that time, a good thing.

But in Brawl is not just the mega-weigthed characters that are **** .
Ness and Lucas, Mario and Luigi, and Samus are VERY bad in SSBB.
If he doesn't know , please someone informs him.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Bowser being competitive-playable this time is really a improvement.D3 wasn't a critical case in Brawl, just in the metagame.
And to be yet more fair he spokes about DK too ... saying he is truly strong that time, a good thing.

But in Brawl is not just the mega-weigthed characters that are **** .
Ness and Lucas, Mario and Luigi, and Samus are VERY bad in SSBB.
If he doesn't know , please someone informs him.

Sure he noticed and adjusted them accordingly. Iv seen a link gif of him throwing a boomerang and the damage and knockback looks much better.

 

[ES. Dinah]

Why the hell would it not be?

 

[Brother AJ]

A community will develop regardless, but I must admit that I am curious about whether you will be able to cancel hitstun in this game. Believe it or not I've never really thought in depth about this before nor how it related to being able to string combos together (don't judge me), but then I did just get involved in the competitive scene for these games not too long ago. I suppose we won't be able to verify this completely till we get our hands on this game or see more footage?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

A community will develop regardless, but I must admit that I am curious about whether you will be able to cancel hitstun in this game. Believe it or not I've never really thought in depth about this before nor how it related to being able to string combos together (don't judge me), but then I did just get involved in the competitive scene for these games not too long ago. I suppose we won't be able to verify this completely till we get our hands on this game or see more footage?

Its a wait and se bit but seeing that sonic combo in the latest direct make me think theres no hitstun cancel as well as seeing some of the WFT at work to.

 

[MasterofMonster]

One question, btw.

It's fun to see competetive Melee, and it's everywhere. But I can't find ANY competetive Brawl battles, excluding one from VGBootcamp and such. :/ Does anyone know of there even are any non-PM compatetive Brawl battles on YouTube or so? I'd love to see some.

 

[StarshipGroove]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBGffJfBkd0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WQSRyIBAF8

Here's examples of competitive Brawl

 

[MasterofMonster]

Thank you. ^^ But, isn't that PM? That changed character/stage selection? I've not kept up with PM so I'm not sure. ^^"

Also, too many MetaKnights and Ice Climbers. But oh well. Thank you.

 

[Mamp]

One question, btw.

It's fun to see competetive Melee, and it's everywhere. But I can't find ANY competetive Brawl battles, excluding one from VGBootcamp and such. :/ Does anyone know of there even are any non-PM compatetive Brawl battles on YouTube or so? I'd love to see some.

There are heaps of competitive Brawl battles from Apex and Evo on Youtube.

 

[StarshipGroove]

@ MasterofMonster the VGBootCamp channel on yt has a lot of Brawl stuff. Those are Brawl matches, it's PM if the character selection menu is electric blue
MK and Ice Climbers are the most used characters, so there's not a lot of variety in the finals

 

[MasterofMonster]

Thanks you two. I guess I have missed a lot of Brawl stuff cuz' of those selections, lol.

 

[Hayzie]

Melee, Brawl, Melee, Brawl, Brawl, Melee, Brawl, Melee Melee, Brawl, Melee Melee, Melee, Brawl, Melee.

I see Smash 4.

I enjoyed Melee. I enjoyed Brawl. I didn't realize how fast Melee was until I played Brawl. Anywhere in-between the two would be perfect. Smash 4 seems to look that way. If it's Melee-fast, it's harder to appreciate the animation and the way things look. The new Smash is addressing any issues galore. Graphically looks better (by HD default LOL), characters are being fine-tuned to play better, and it seems to be much more balanced from what I can tell. I think Brawl is better than Melee, regardless of speed or missing L-Cancel. It was better not only because of more content, but it was more balanced. Tripping just messed it up and is the worst decision ever made. I'd like L-cancelling to return, but I'm not in dire need for it (doesn't break it for me). I think Smash 4 will be the most competitive. More options, more balanced.

Man..................... Smash Wii U looks perfect.