will final smashes see tournament play?

[rushehidaka]

Most tourney goes would immediately say "no, it's too random," but is it really that random at all?

Yeah, it spawns at a random time at a random place on the map, but even if it spawns closer to one person you still have to hit it 3-5 times before you can even unlock the Final smash, with each hit knocking it away from you. And you can have it stolen if you're not careful. Some final smashes are stronger than others, yes, but the fact that you're using it so the other person doesn't is more than enough compensation to go for it IMO. If you allow someone to hit the smash ball that many times without challenging him, you deserve it and you can't really blame"randomness" for that.

what do you guys, especially those who own the game, have to say about it?

I'd just like to make one little point as regards Smashballs in competitive play. I myself am undecided one way or the other, not actually having the game, but I can see a pretty sound justification for their inclusion, and an equally sound one for their ban

Anyway, my point is this, arguments for or against Smashballs have absolutely nothing to do with the relative power / effectivness / KO potential of the characters' FS'. Some characters are better than others - this is the way of things. Arguments pertaining to the SB ban should not be founded in this nonsense. A given character's FS is still a quality of that character, as is a character's speed and ability to aquire said Smashball - banning Smashballs because a certain character's FS surpasses another's would be like (if you will permit a Melee parallel here) banning Fox because his DownB surpasses Sheik's DownB

We can only suppose - as the game has come nowhere near it's competitive peak yet - that the FS is factored into the all-round quality of a character. i.e. characters boasting superior FS' are lacking in other areas - and vice-versa. And even if this is not the case, and the most already overwhelmingly broken characters are gifted with the most broken, unavoidable, KO accumulating FS', and these characters happen to be the speediest, most manouverable, and most capable of aquiring their FS, even then, banning Smashballs on this reasoning would still be utterly arbitrary and set a ridiculous precedent - based on which we can pick through the game - discarding the bits we don't like - saying things like "No no, you're not allowed use DK's Bair anymore, it's better than mine"

In desperation I direct you to an image taken from David Sirlin's website, dipicting the end result if we do deem it acceptable to ban aspects of the game based purely on how they favour certain characters, or on how certain characters can take greater advantage of certain aspects of the game http://www.sirlin.net/Features/RyuVsRyu.jpg

[/rant]

NEW
I think the best way to objectively consider the effects of Smash Balls in Tournaments is to try them out for a while and look at the data. Perhaps have players run tournaments twice, with smash balls on and off. Then you can compare who is winning with smashballs on and who is winning with them off, and then you can look for patterns and possible explanations.

For instance, if the same players consistently win tournaments regardless of the presence of smash balls, then we can say that smash balls DO NOT have an effect on the relationship of "player skill" and winning tournaments. If that were the case, then smashballs don't affect who wins but simply the methods and playstyle involved in winning.

I contend that a skilled player will win a tournament (or come close to winning) regardless of whether or not smashballs are turned on.

but sadly, at the moment, we are all too noobish (even the ones with a copy of the game) to prove this right or wrong. we will have to wait and see!

 

[Divine_Crono]

I'm actually undecided on the matter. I don't think it's a good idea in the interests of balance, but I think it's a new twist on an old love.

Plus, if I mained Ike, I'd do anything for a smash ball. So sweet.

 

[Sariku]

This topic is pointless until everyone has their hands on the game and gets to try it out. I personally think Final Smashes help balance characters out, but after seeing Marth be all godlike, and then his Final Smash ****, I can't be too sure anymore.

 

[limitbreak]

The answer is no. Some are directed good for 1v1 and some are bad. I can see them being used in teams though.

 

[Switchblade]

i dont believe any of you have witnessed in person how devastating these final smashes are. if we leave them on then the game will become a race to get that smashball, and the faster character will always get it. So I believe HELL NO

 

[CraigUK37]

A think the smashball would slow down the gameplay, a race for the smash ball and then all that time you cant do anything while the person is using it. (e.g. kirbys and luigis.)

I better question I think is will the team healer be using in team tournaments?

 

[kenkowtow]

Even if the chance breaks even for each character to get it (say 50%) it would still be uneven.

Never mind that according to binomial distributions actually getting at 50% chance of something happening to actually be 50% chance is quite rare (if the sample size is small)
Let's just assume that it will happen 50% of the time.

How many Smash Balls have you seen during one match? The most I have seen (it was during a 3pl FFA) was three smash balls. Lets say it was Marth vs Samus. Each FS is a full stock off, don't believe me? go watch the vids. This automatically sets the player with 2 FS at an advantage.

(The following is my opinion, which only applies to big money kind of tournament play)
Basically, the FS is going to be banned not necessarily because it doesn't come out randomly (though it does play a role). It will most likely be banned because of the destructive power of it. Furthermore, the fact that there are some characters with powerful FSs (Marth, etc) and some with weak/stupid/hard FSs (Pika, DK, etc) makes characters with powerful FSs to be used while the weaker ones not.

Granted I don't have this game, so I suppose you could just deem all that musings from a fanboy, but then again this is my opinion.

 

[NY-Beast]

Nah..They won't make it. Depends on the matchups. Take Marth, it's crazy. G&W. Bowser. Everyone with a crazy FS will make tourney play broken and unfair. Unless of course someone thinks of another way.

 

[rushehidaka]

Really though? But doesn't the FIGHT for the smashball balance out who wins it? It's not like the final smashes themselves make or break matches, its the FIGHT TO WIN IT that ultimately decides who reaps from the rewards (we assume that any good player knows how to use his FS for an autokill). So while stupid players selfishly attack the ball in hopes for the prize, good players will know to use the opportunity to smash or grab the opponent and punish them for their greed. By going for the ball you leave yourself totally open to attack, and no good player would miss that opportunity.

The fact that you have to earn it really mitigates "randomness" or "unbalances" in their respective powers. Most FS's have weaknesses that can be played to and exploited. For example, Marth's FS can be normal jumped over with good timing, and Samus' FS can be avoided by jumping/rolling behind her as she does it, Snake's FS can be dodged, etc. So, even if you lose the fight, you have a small chance to survive one with enough mindgames.

 

[NY-Beast]

That's true. But it consideres a lot of thinking I guess. Some will have a SB , and some wont. IMO I would like to have them. Even thought IMO I don't think we will. The fight yeah that's another aspect too. But if 2noobs are just chasing it and fall of a cliff , then you know..

 

[D.A.N.]

There have already been a few threads about this. The common belief is that they're too unbalanced to work. You can't have an FS when some of them KO at zero percent and some can't KO at all.

 

[S2]

Anyone who calls unbalanced without playing the game considerably should not be listened to.

I'm not defending them from being banned, but nothing should be banned until its tried in a tournament setting and deemed so unfair that it should be tournmant banned.

The game is not Melee. Things need to be banned for how they work in Brawl, not how they did/would have been unfair in Melee.

Yeah, I do feel things should get banned. But everything ought to get a fair chance before being banned, just like they did in tge competitive scene for Melee.

 

[rushehidaka]

There have already been a few threads about this. The common belief is that they're too unbalanced to work. You can't have an FS when some of them KO at zero percent and some can't KO at all.

Pardon my slight hyperbole, but that logic is akin to saying that we shouldn't use forward smashes because some characters can KO at lower percents and some cant. a player using any given character obviously knows the strengths and weaknesses of the character, and can use the FS to the best of its abilities regardless of whether or not it KOs. Getting the FS, even if you have a weak one, means that THE OTHER PLAYER CANT USE HIS, so all in all I think it balances itself out that way. A player with a "weak" FS could even just run off and waste it so both players are back on a level playing field like nothing happened at all.

I guess my last argument is that Final Smashes only seem unbalancing because players haven't tried them out or are simply too afraid to have to change in order to deal with them.

 

[LordLocke]

If it's found that no Final Smash = assured Stock Removal, then they probably have a fair chance of returning.

Problem is, right now, things don't look so good on that end- Sonic, Pikachu, and Diddy at the very least, seem pretty much assured of getting a kill with their Final Smash if the player using them has any kind of talent. Luigi's is also going to prove problematic for anyone trying to argue that Final Smashes can be avoided with skill, as will Peach's, and maybe Kirby's. Dunno how Olimar's will rank- the damage is assured, but it looks like the finale is as avoidable as a Warp Star, so it might just wind up as instant damage.

The battle for the Smash Ball is a balancing factor, yes, but not so much of one if characters X, Y, and Z win the battle, the other guy is pretty much assured of losing a stock with little say in the matter.

 

[D.A.N.]

Pardon my slight hyperbole, but that logic is akin to saying that we shouldn't use forward smashes because some characters can KO at lower percents and some cant. a player using any given character obviously knows the strengths and weaknesses of the character, and can use the FS to the best of its abilities regardless of whether or not it KOs. Getting the FS, even if you have a weak one, means that THE OTHER PLAYER CANT USE HIS, so all in all I think it balances itself out that way. A player with a "weak" FS could even just run off and waste it so both players are back on a level playing field like nothing happened at all.

I guess my last argument is that Final Smashes only seem unbalancing because players haven't tried them out or are simply too afraid to have to change in order to deal with them.

That's actually a very good point and analysis of things. So much so that I think I've changed my viewpoint on FSes being used in competitive play.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

No no no no no no no no.

Sakurai himself has stated that Final Smashes are basically like character-specific hammers. Are hammers in competitive play? No. Final Smashes are among THE MOST BROKEN items. There is no way that they will be used in competitive play. If they are somehow put into competitive play, I'm ****ing maining Sonic, and I'm going to camp the whole match and run for the Smash balls because of Sonic's speed. Either that, or I'm going to quit.

 

[x4FoSho4x]

No no no no no no no no.

Sakurai himself has stated that Final Smashes are basically like character-specific hammers. Are hammers in competitive play? No. Final Smashes are among THE MOST BROKEN items. There is no way that they will be used in competitive play.

qft

items in brawl for tournyes? and a broken one at that. helllll nooooo

 

[Firestorm88]

I'm willing to test many items in tournament play, Smash Balls are not one of them. I've played only a week of Brawl, most of it with items on. Final Smashes are completely, utterly broken. The worst part is, some of the best characters definitely have the best Final Smashes. They are amazingly powerful. They are not balanced. Many of them are a guaranteed KO.

 

[Furbs]

personally i couldn't care less if they were in or out,
but lets look at the facts.
1. smash balls are a bit tough to break open, and when they do its like a supercharged move that can either, heal you, cause damage, or one hit KO.

2. if a player obtains a smash ball, its not completely hopeless for the other player to get it back, in most cases OHKO smash ball characters need to get close, or get in a certain part of a map for it to be fully effective, giving the other player time to still grab it. (although sonic/pikachu/yoshi/diddy ect. don't need to I guess its time to really get on the defensive for the short while they're powered up.)

3. chances are that if we allow smash balls in a tourney, many people who lose (whether it be smash ball or not) are going to WHINE AND COMPLAIN that the smash ball is what caused it. but think about it like this.
Example:
-Player A and Player B are both at 3 stock 0%.
-Player B grabs Ball.
-Player A now has 2 stock 0% while B has 3 stock 0%.
-Player A while at a disadvantage isn't out of the game until he's at zero stock, and i have seen a lot of matches turn around at the last stock.
-After all, it's just as if player A had just gotten a self destruct. Point being It's only a one stock difference, that although gives the other player a handicap, doesn't COMPLETELY put player A out of the game.

4. I can understand how people that spend money on going to tournaments may feel if in fact they do lose to a smash ball. It wouldn't be a good feeling to spend 20 bucks only to get down to one stock each and have the other player turn the game around due to a final smash. However, you have to take into mind that only the Top 3 players actually win the money, and chances are that the players who do win the money are able to do so because they are able to adapt to the changing surroundings. Point being although it may at first seem unfair that you lost due to a final smash, realistically only 3 players in the end will be able to claim the prize.

5. My final point is the fact that in most tournaments you don't play one round and then its over, it's typically best 2/3. Chances are of you loosing every match due to a final smash is very unlikely. If you're really worried of a noob beating you (god forbid that happen amirite?) beat them in the first 2 rounds, and if you're 1 and 1 that means both players are of around the same skill level and that final smash was just the weight that determines who should be the victor or looser.

those are just my opinions at the moment from vids i've seen and such, i haven't personally played the game, and i'm sure they will be subject to change once the game comes out in america.

 

[Undrdog]

Do we have a choice? It seems that King Dedede can actually spawn Smashballs via his Undrling summoning similar to how Peach can call forth B-bombs.

Plus the characters were balanced by Nintendo with the Final Smashes in mind.

I don't see a massive downside to the Final Smashes. In my opinion if they are eliminated from tourneys we will end up seeing plenty of Final Smash tourneys spring up.

 

[Requiem]

Do we have a choice? It seems that King Dedede can actually spawn Smashballs via his Undrling summoning similar to how Peach can call forth B-bombs.

Plus the characters were balanced by Nintendo with the Final Smashes in mind.

I don't see a massive downside to the Final Smashes. In my opinion if they are eliminated from tourneys we will end up seeing plenty of Final Smash tourneys spring up.

I love your avatar...no really... I want to marry it.

About the smash ball, I dont really know, I'd like to see them turned off, not because of brokenness, or w/e, or because I hate items, but because I love the whole melee part about smash (not the game, but as in, close combat), and items take away melee time D::

Its not like I would quit if they're turned on though... but i would never play DK XD

 

[OffTheChain]

Items are items, so no.

 

[Dark Sonic]

personally i couldn't care less if they were in or out,
but lets look at the facts.
1. smash balls are a bit tough to break open, and when they do its like a supercharged move that can either, heal you, cause damage, or one hit KO.

2. if a player obtains a smash ball, its not completely hopeless for the other player to get it back, in most cases OHKO smash ball characters need to get close, or get in a certain part of a map for it to be fully effective, giving the other player time to still grab it. (although sonic/pikachu/yoshi/diddy ect. don't need to I guess its time to really get on the defensive for the short while they're powered up.)

3. chances are that if we allow smash balls in a tourney, many people who lose (whether it be smash ball or not) are going to WHINE AND COMPLAIN that the smash ball is what caused it. but think about it like this.
Example:
-Player A and Player B are both at 3 stock 0%.
-Player B grabs Ball.
-Player A now has 2 stock 0% while B has 3 stock 0%.
-Player A while at a disadvantage isn't out of the game until he's at zero stock, and i have seen a lot of matches turn around at the last stock.
-After all, it's just as if player A had just gotten a self destruct. Point being It's only a one stock difference, that although gives the other player a handicap, doesn't COMPLETELY put player A out of the game.

4. I can understand how people that spend money on going to tournaments may feel if in fact they do lose to a smash ball. It wouldn't be a good feeling to spend 20 bucks only to get down to one stock each and have the other player turn the game around due to a final smash. However, you have to take into mind that only the Top 3 players actually win the money, and chances are that the players who do win the money are able to do so because they are able to adapt to the changing surroundings. Point being although it may at first seem unfair that you lost due to a final smash, realistically only 3 players in the end will be able to claim the prize.

5. My final point is the fact that in most tournaments you don't play one round and then its over, it's typically best 2/3. Chances are of you loosing every match due to a final smash is very unlikely. If you're really worried of a noob beating you (god forbid that happen amirite?) beat them in the first 2 rounds, and if you're 1 and 1 that means both players are of around the same skill level and that final smash was just the weight that determines who should be the victor or looser.

those are just my opinions at the moment from vids i've seen and such, i haven't personally played the game, and i'm sure they will be subject to change once the game comes out in america.

Allow me to refute every arguement you made.

1.Smash balls take at most 3 hits to break. Most characters can pull that off in two jumps. No imagine that you are knocked off the stage and a smash ball appears. The other player is guaranteed to get this OHKO item, and there's nothing you can do about it? Sucks for you.

2. Considering that FSes make you invincible after activating them, getting in close is not going to be a problem. All they have to do is press B when you try to attack them.

3.Here's a better example.

Player A and Player B are at 1 stock
Player A-30%
Player B-140%
Player B is Marth and gets a smash ball. Player A tries to hit it out of him. Player B presses the b button and becomes invincible, avoiding the attack, and killing the opponent in one hit. No let's just make the situation worse by saying this is MLG grand finals with a few thousand dollars on the line. With how frequently items appear, even on their lowest setting, this is very possible and very likely. The weight that determines the winner should be the player's skill, not the FS. No matter what you say, no two people are completely even 100% of the time, as their skill fluctuates. What determines who wins should be that fluctuation in skill, not a random, overpowerred item.

4.Well, what if a final smash just so happens to appear for someone in the last life of loser's finals. That FS happens to decide the match opposite of what it would've probably been otherwise (let's say the other guy was up by a large percent.) Well, that just changed who got money and who didn't. It's true that in a match between two people of very different skill levels random elements wouldn't make a difference. However, the entire point of tournaments is to determine who is the best, and as you progress through the tournament you are supposed to end up fighting people closer to your skill level, until you are surpassed and lose. You are bound to find someone who is close to even with you, and then random elements could change the outcome.

5. The problem is not when you're fighting people a lot worse than you. The problem is when you're fighting people a little worse than you. The problem is when you may win the first match, but they pull a win out of their counterpick and then they win the next match from a FS. What if you were about to win that match? What you don't understand is that it's a much more likely occurance than you make it out to be. Tournaments have enough matches total to make this kind of situation happen multiple times per tournament. It won't just affect one match every once in a while like exploding capsules, it will affect large amounts of matches because of how frequent items actually spawn.

 

[shadydentist]

I don't see final smashes making it into competitive play. And does anyone know yet if you can turn of exploding capsules and boxes?

 

[Textbook Ninja]

Have the full game, and I think they are way too unbalanced for actual tournament play. Some of them are just plain unavoidable and 1 shot kills, and its not based on how many times you hit it, rather its how hard, ganon and other power characters can one shot the ball then immidiatly use it. If they DID make it available in tournaments I believe thats going to change tier systems and who uses what characters JUST cause of that, so yeah... I doubt it...

I don't see final smashes making it into competitive play. And does anyone know yet if you can turn of exploding capsules and boxes?

Yes you can.

 

[Mr Mattastic]

Lets see.. FS helps bring out the fun in the game so I'm going to go with no.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

Lets see.. FS helps bring out the fun in the game so I'm going to go with no.

sad...

Ya know, some people actually have fun testing pure skill against other players, get off your high horse.

 

[Silverline]

I personally think we can't say weither or not FS or even items are allowed in play yet. For the most part, we're all still thinking with Melee in our minds, forgetting that Brawl is a different game. It's going to take a lot more then the short time we've had Brawl avaliable to say yay or nay to either of them yet.

 

[kenkowtow]

Let me put it this way:


If Final Smashes worked the same way as did Street Fighter's specials did, they would be in the game.

In Street Fighter you needed to build up your special bar by attacking the opponent, or being attacked. Thus as a reward you get a special move, this special move is easily blocked. However what allows players to do it is that you can combo into it. Even then the damage, at most is around 3/5 of the full bar. A reward for all the combos and damage and whatever you did.

In Brawl you do not build up a meter of your special. It is merely some attack that you do to an item. The reward for getting the Final Smash power is an essentially OHKO move that can easily go through a shield/guard (perhaps some exceptions, but massive damage is still incurred). For the most part, the only "skill" involved in invoking the Final Smash is to simply move and press a button is rather shocking.
Furthermore, the inclusion of the Smash Ball would essentially be the same as including the Star, Ba-Bomb, and other ridiculously powerful items. You have to jump after the start, you still need to grab the Ba-bomb and if needed, avoid it.


I doubt these items will play a role in the tournament scene in Brawl. While I am willing to consider the possibility of the inclusion of pathetic items such as Mr. Saturn, I wonder if that's a change for the better or the worse.

 

[IceEmblem]

Anything to use Ikes awesome smash. How he uses his sword is magnificent.

 

[Yoshistar64]

Absolutely not.

In today's update, Sakurai promoted a few special tricks for competitive play (but not all of them are for it), like the pivot grab, which is perfect for mindgames. Smash Balls would take away competitive play, which is what tournaments are all about. Simple as that.

 

[Foxy]

Here's my thoughts:

WHY THINGS ARE BANNED

-Extreme randomness. Items give a random player a random advantage at a random time. Certain stages do this too, like Brinstar Depths.

-Imbalance to the point of abusal. Wobbling, infinites, Ness's Corneria tactics, all are things that are more than simply overpowered. These can be taken advantage of to the lengths of winning a tournament.


WHAT FINAL SMASHES HAVE

-Slight randomness. The only randomness is the time and location of the spawn. Every character has good and bad moves, and players pick those characters knowingly. Should B-moves be banned because pills are so much better than fireballs? Final Smashes are another facet of each character and players should learn to use them (or not use them) like any other attack. And obviously, certain characters will have better Final Smashes than others.

-Normal imbalance. As said above, Final Smash balance is similar to character balance. It's just another move, albeit a more important one. Should all top-tier characters be banned because they are always going to perform better against most other characters than the low-tiers? Likewise, should Final Smashes be banned because some characters have ones that will always be more useful/powerful than other characters' against most opponents? Final Smashes cannot be abused. They align with normal character balance, and can even give a low-tier character an advantage.


Final verdict: Use them for tourneys. They are a wholesome and important part of a character's moveset. They are not overly random or imbalanced. In spite of sounding like an old record, this isn't Melee 2.0. Final Smashes are new, important, and while different, it's just the initial foreignness from Melee gameplay that makes old veterans shy away from this new ability.

 

[-Risky-]

I'd just like to make one little point as regards Smashballs in competitive play. I myself am undecided one way or the other, not actually having the game, but I can see a pretty sound justification for their inclusion, and an equally sound one for their ban

Anyway, my point is this, arguments for or against Smashballs have absolutely nothing to do with the relative power / effectivness / KO potential of the characters' FS'. Some characters are better than others - this is the way of things. Arguments pertaining to the SB ban should not be founded in this nonsense. A given character's FS is still a quality of that character, as is a character's speed and ability to aquire said Smashball - banning Smashballs because a certain character's FS surpasses another's would be like (if you will permit a Melee parallel here) banning Fox because his DownB surpasses Sheik's DownB

We can only suppose - as the game has come nowhere near it's competitive peak yet - that the FS is factored into the all-round quality of a character. i.e. characters boasting superior FS' are lacking in other areas - and vice-versa. And even if this is not the case, and the most already overwhelmingly broken characters are gifted with the most broken, unavoidable, KO accumulating FS', and these characters happen to be the speediest, most manouverable, and most capable of aquiring their FS, even then, banning Smashballs on this reasoning would still be utterly arbitrary and set a ridiculous precedent - based on which we can pick through the game - discarding the bits we don't like - saying things like "No no, you're not allowed use DK's Bair anymore, it's better than mine"

In desperation I direct you to an image taken from David Sirlin's website, dipicting the end result if we do deem it acceptable to ban aspects of the game based purely on how they favour certain characters, or on how certain characters can take greater advantage of certain aspects of the game http://www.sirlin.net/Features/RyuVsRyu.jpg

[/rant]

 

[Knight-errant]

I think the main problem is people hear the word "item" and they take out their pitchforks to kill whoever said it.

I heard (can someone confirm this?) that exploding crates and barrels can be turned off. I think this opens up a possible new era in terms of items. Kirbykid has advocated items in several of his posts, and he said that one of the main things holding them back is the exploding crates and barrels. If we can indeed turn that off, then perhaps items will become usable for tournament play.

On Randomness: Random occurrences and items etc are all part of an interesting battle. Anyone who's watched an action movie has seen the bad guy somehow get a hold of some item (whether it be a crane, or a bazooka, etc) to try to smash the hero with. This only makes the battle more interesting, and I think it would be the same with brawl, including Final Smashes.

Being able to adapt to an array of battle occurrences--whether they be different players, characters, items, or FS's--is what really makes a fighter a fighter. Not, "Hey, I could've beaten you if you didn't have that item!" or "I would've won if we wouldn't have fought on that stage."

Main Point: Adapting to your surroundings and your opponents advantages is all part of being a good fighter.

**Just as a note** Thought things becoming TOO random or TOO imbalanced is not interesting (which is why some items would be banned, and item spawn would be turned to "low").

 

[Textbook Ninja]

Ide love to see these become available for tournament play and then get a DK player vs an Olimar player... Balance issue with the smashes? No... why would we think that? rofl...


*Insert sarcasm here*

Tournament play IS skill vs skill. If it were bases on randomness or "bad guys getting a gun in a movie" Im sure the smash competition would see an INCREDIBLE decrease in activity. Its not just barrels and crates. Its the fact that "oh this poke ball just landed on your head over on this side of the stage and all you need to do is press a to grab it, while the other player needs to recover, run over, beat you to death so you dont grab it, THEN grab it and use it." Slight difference there? I think so. It makes an equal playing field by taking away items, making players rely on their own abilities rather than lucky *** drops and pressing a single button to instant KO your opponent. Your right this is not melee 2.0 it IS a different game, yet the competative guidlines and rules will still follow. Sure there may be tournaments that dont ban these, and there is your answer. Go to tourneys that allow them if you want them.

Just dont complain when a bomb-om appears in front of you while you charge your forward smash and you lose a game from it. or if someone whores items and just runs from you the entire match til time up. OR when you have someone at 170% damage you are at 0 then all of a sudden he hits a ball, presses b and whamo - your dead. Sounds balanced to me...

Just play the game for yourself, you will see what we mean, final smashes got old quick within the e-for all and 2weeks of play time we have had.

 

[graves]

I hope so but some how don't think so...

 

[kenkowtow]

One thing I would like to note is that if items are included into tournament play, the "extreme" items such as Ba-bomb, star, heart, etc will inevitably be banned. (at least the way I see it.)

The question is whether or not the Smash Ball is to be considered and item first of all and then whether or not it is extreme.


Just thought I'd point that out. I have already given my opinion in my post before.

 

[tw1n]

I've played the game and I can safely say that sadly the smashballs are too cheap. I won several matches just off of those alone. Even when I was down badly on a stock I grabbed it and won. Then it went the same vice versa. Overall I don't think competitive play will see very many of those

 

[Enshoku]

I'd just like to make one little point as regards Smashballs in competitive play. I myself am undecided one way or the other, not actually having the game, but I can see a pretty sound justification for their inclusion, and an equally sound one for their ban

Anyway, my point is this, arguments for or against Smashballs have absolutely nothing to do with the relative power / effectivness / KO potential of the characters' FS'. Some characters are better than others - this is the way of things. Arguments pertaining to the SB ban should not be founded in this nonsense. A given character's FS is still a quality of that character, as is a character's speed and ability to aquire said Smashball - banning Smashballs because a certain character's FS surpasses another's would be like (if you will permit a Melee parallel here) banning Fox because his DownB surpasses Sheik's DownB

We can only suppose - as the game has come nowhere near it's competitive peak yet - that the FS is factored into the all-round quality of a character. i.e. characters boasting superior FS' are lacking in other areas - and vice-versa. And even if this is not the case, and the most already overwhelmingly broken characters are gifted with the most broken, unavoidable, KO accumulating FS', and these characters happen to be the speediest, most manouverable, and most capable of aquiring their FS, even then, banning Smashballs on this reasoning would still be utterly arbitrary and set a ridiculous precedent - based on which we can pick through the game - discarding the bits we don't like - saying things like "No no, you're not allowed use DK's Bair anymore, it's better than mine"

In desperation I direct you to an image taken from David Sirlin's website, dipicting the end result if we do deem it acceptable to ban aspects of the game based purely on how they favour certain characters, or on how certain characters can take greater advantage of certain aspects of the game http://www.sirlin.net/Features/RyuVsRyu.jpg

[/rant]

never saw that article of sirlin's, thanks...

 

[rushehidaka]

what an excellent rant! I'm quoting that for my first post, though I doubt anyone bothers to read anything in this post other than the title