will final smashes see tournament play?

[Aberu]

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

All of you people that turn off items at tournaments before the game is even OUT IN AMERICA are SCRUBS.

I have seen someone quote sakurai as saying final smashes are like hammers for each character in their own way. Guess what else Sakurai said? "Real men play with items on". You can't pick and choose what doctrine he speaks about gameplay that reflects your point of view best personally, completely ignoring other things he has said. The game was designed with items, some are okay with being banned, but ALL including smash balls?

What is the most important thing for the future of competitive gaming? The entertainment of the spectator. Unfortunately for some of you elitists who have scared off the casual community with your incredibly boring to watch matches, that means you may have to have AT LEAST smash balls on. AT LEAST.

Reasons why you are scrubs. Take this quote for instance from the aforementioned article.

...but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” So-called “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack.

Let's see here. Now how is that relevant to smash, we allow blocks, throws, etc... It applies because banning Final Smashes is like banning specials in Street Fighter because some are one hit kills. Let's look at mitigating factors that balance Final Smashes and allow people to earn the win with a final smash, not just luckily get it.

1. Needs to be hit multiple times, thus adding strategy, planning, timing to the acquisition of the Final Smash.

2. Can be knocked out of the player with a hard enough smash, thus upsetting the faster characters that everyone claims (after only 2-3 weeks of play) have an advantage of getting the smash ball.

3. From what I have seen of just watching each one, NONE of these are one hit kills, press a button, someone dies with no skill involved at all at 0% starting health. All of them require timing, aiming, can be baited and dodged strategically if you know when they are going to use it, and I have also seen all of them yield a kill as well, no matter how underpowered you think some are. The idea that marth is just some winning machine, or sonics is so easy to use is based on 2-3 weeks of play, whereas the whiners most likely turned off smash balls within the first week because... they are scrubs and play with their own set of intricate rules based on how "cheap" they think something is.

That all being said, it's appalling to me that the first major is set up with Melee tournament rules already. The people organizing the event haven't even had enough time to play the game to make any decision on items, to start dictating what the community should do. I'm rising up and going to start an items on tournament in the next months. A regional at first, but eventually with the hopes of making it a major.

From a spectator's standpoint the LA Pre-Release Tournament and the SF Pre-Release tournament were both amazing. One main reason? Items. Items made it really interesting and exciting to watch. Without items you are just watching street fighter with no specials, just kicks, and punches. For competitive gaming to take off, it must be interesting to watch, and you scrubs who turn off items in the first major without sufficient evidence or time played to back up any supposed reasoning are ruining chances of the competitive brawl scene making it into the spotlight.

Now some responses:

The annoying thing is how often they appear. In a 3 stock match the smashball showed up somewhere between 3 and 6 times at least. I love using them but its literally a 0 skill kill item.

This is the most inaccurate thing I have read. In the LA Tournament and SF Tournament you could MAYBE see 3 smash balls appear. They were not obtusely often in appearance or anything. This is setting items to medium. At most I saw 3 in a match. Everytime it was usually 1 or 2 though. I think maybe 2 matches I saw 3 smash balls fall down out of the about 15-20 I watched. Watch videos online and time 3 lives/4 minutes with people playing with items on medium. Anyone who attended the pre-release tourneys will disagree with your 3-6 statement.

Allow me to refute every arguement you made.

1.Smash balls take at most 3 hits to break. Most characters can pull that off in two jumps. No imagine that you are knocked off the stage and a smash ball appears. The other player is guaranteed to get this OHKO item, and there's nothing you can do about it? Sucks for you.

2. Considering that FSes make you invincible after activating them, getting in close is not going to be a problem. All they have to do is press B when you try to attack them.

1. This situation is so incredibly rare. It really is a non-issue. If this happens anyways you are assuming someone gets knocked off, and that instant he starts flying (very far mind you because he would have to be high percentage ANYWAYS for there to be enough time for this to happen, thus partially his fault and being on the brink of death, mitigating the potential of the FS ANYWAYS) a smash ball appears. The character on land then proceeds to jump 2-3 times attacking the smash ball accurately each time (which flies pretty far away depending on the frequency of it being hit and how hard, etc...) following it perfectly. Then coming down, aiming the smash, timing it for where the person is. Also the other person is completely unable to bait, juke, dodge, or smash the smash ball out of the offending player. Yes totally unbalanced, no mitigating circumstances WHATSOEVER. I see your point scrub.

2. Yes because everyone attacks by running directly at someone in a straight line without jumping, without dodges, without anything. I mean playing against someone who is competent who realizes what your FS can do, and how it works, and what situation is favorable for you, they will just find a way to make it less favorable for you. Actually since items are long range, they can help you fight someone who has short range activatable FS'. Items on to some degree can help mitigate the "overpoweredness" of these FS'.

No items. What is so hard to understand? Just no. You can argue but just no.

This is the most stupid, unbacked up opinion out of this whole thread. Nice way to +1 your 4700 posts. Most of the people opposed to items and smashes usually offer opinions of these caliber from what I have seen in this thread. Here I have a reply.

Items. What is so hard to understand? Just yes. You can argue, but just yes.

Wow that opinion should totally be listened to.

Have you seen what falco's fs can do?

LOL LIFT YOU OFF TOP OF STAGE

OOPS YOU RESPAWN?!

LOL DO IT AGAIN

Yeah its broken no it won't see the tournament play

Yes, because when you are on Falco/Fox/Wolf's FS-tank you totally can't MOVE OFF OF IT, RUN, DODGE IT, HIT THEM WHEN THEY GET THE SMASH BALL OR KEEP THEM FROM GETTING THE BALL.

Learn to read.



Good job trolling.

I like how the majority of your posts are useless one-liners that contribute very little to the actual topic.

Good job singling out people that disagree with your opinion for trolling, and missing the guy with 4700 posts who completely was unable to contribute anything to the argument but "no".

Man scrubs are dumb

That might sound elitist, but at least the people that give reasons for banning it make sense and have played competitive before

man scrubs are dumb

The only scrubs I see are the ones saying it's broken because everything is undodgable, and every situation with Smash balls are extreme .001% occurances that will upset all tournaments. And if you want to be considered a sport, or a competitive event, all sports and competitive events have upsets, unlikely wins, lucky and unlucky outcomes, long shots. In the sports world it's considered a conversation piece, adds spectators, gives them sports news, etc... 3/4 court 3 pointers for the win thrown blindly, star QB falling improperly and hurting something messing up his throw, a gust of wind in golf, etc...

The main problem is that once you get the smash ball, all you have to press one button, and your opponent may die multiple times.

Considering there will at most be 4 stocks per match, that's imbalanced.

Yes you press one button and multiple stock falls off. Wait, did they really say that? With every FS except Fox/Wolf/Falco this is impossible (with the exception of the person dying instantly and jumping off and SD'ing after reviving). Even with Fox/Wolf/Falco's you would have to be braindead to die the 2nd time personally.

I beat KDJ and PC Chris at Mass Madness with Final Smashes so obviously I think they should be in the game.

If they're taken out of the competitive scene I'm going back to Starcraft.

Yes because KDJ and PC Chris are long time proven Brawl tournament winners/champions. Wait, they aren't. The game is new. It's new to the Melee pros. Melee pros aren't instantly brawl pros? Melee rules aren't instantly brawl rules then? I remember seeing the best Zelda player struggling in Brawl at the pre-release tournament. Must have been because items were on and smash balls were on huh. Items on smash balls on is just letting non-melee pros win all the pre-release tournaments, totally not a trend of how melee pros are so spoiled by the way they play they can't even play with items on anymore.

 

[Aberu]

Allow me to refute every arguement you made.

1.Smash balls take at most 3 hits to break. Most characters can pull that off in two jumps. No imagine that you are knocked off the stage and a smash ball appears. The other player is guaranteed to get this OHKO item, and there's nothing you can do about it? Sucks for you.

2. Considering that FSes make you invincible after activating them, getting in close is not going to be a problem. All they have to do is press B when you try to attack them.

1. This situation is so incredibly rare. It really is a non-issue. If this happens anyways you are assuming someone gets knocked off, and that instant he starts flying (very far mind you because he would have to be high percentage ANYWAYS for there to be enough time for this to happen, thus partially his fault and being on the brink of death, mitigating the potential of the FS ANYWAYS) a smash ball appears. The character on land then proceeds to jump 2-3 times attacking the smash ball accurately each time (which flies pretty far away depending on the frequency of it being hit and how hard, etc...) following it perfectly. Then coming down, aiming the smash, timing it for where the person is. Also the other person is completely unable to bait, juke, dodge, or smash the smash ball out of the offending player. Yes totally unbalanced, no mitigating circumstances WHATSOEVER. I see your point scrub.

2. Yes because everyone attacks by running directly at someone in a straight line without jumping, without dodges, without anything. I mean playing against someone who is competent who realizes what your FS can do, and how it works, and what situation is favorable for you, they will just find a way to make it less favorable for you. Actually since items are long range, they can help you fight someone who has short range activatable FS'. Items on to some degree can help mitigate the "overpoweredness" of these FS'.

Edit: Meant to add this to above post, and now it's double posted, whoops. You gusy don't have a personal delete post function as I can see so can you delete?

 

[Bailey]

All of you people that turn off items at tournaments before the game is even OUT IN AMERICA are SCRUBS.

Money Match me for $100 best of 5.







FINAL SMASHES WON'T BE ON FOR TOURNAMENTS.

 

[Aberu]

Money Match me for $100 best of 5.







FINAL SMASHES WON'T BE ON FOR TOURNAMENTS.

So you just want me to make a bet with you over 100 bucks. That's your reasoning for final smashes off. I really like how you have just been trolling this thread without any substance to your posting. Please just go away loser.

 

[Zankoku]

http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

All of you people that turn off items at tournaments before the game is even OUT IN AMERICA are SCRUBS.

I have seen someone quote sakurai as saying final smashes are like hammers for each character in their own way. Guess what else Sakurai said? "Real men play with items on". You can't pick and choose what doctrine he speaks about gameplay that reflects your point of view best personally, completely ignoring other things he has said. The game was designed with items, some are okay with being banned, but ALL including smash balls?

So we should play the way Sakurai wanted us to? Like, with a bunch of items on, and to add to the excitement, 2 minute time matches? Last I checked, we were allowed to play the game the way we wanted. But since you're so insistent on saying no items is for scrubs...

Why? How does it add anything to the game? With camping already being a popular strategy in Brawl, you want to add incentive by adding the chance that an item might randomly spawn and give you an easy KO? And is it somehow skill-based that some time later, a projectile item spawns next to the other player and suddenly makes it that much harder to camp?

Turning it off is calling items "cheap"? Is that like saying banning stages in Melee with walk-off edges to prevent Fox from getting easy waveshine KOs makes us scrubs? I don't get your mentality; according to you, we should let everything be as is and try to play to win in that environment, no matter how much external factors alone will determine the outcome. But okay, if it's more entertaining to see a bunch of people running around waiting for a Smash Ball/Smart Bomb/Spicy Curry/Lightning Bolt/Starman to spawn than actually engaging each other, we'll look into it.

 

[tw1n]

Wait till you get a chance to play the game Aberu. You make strong statements but your logic is also flawed. Many people have already played the game (including myself). Items are alot of fun as well as smashballs. But ONLY in friendlies. When it came to the serious matches they caused no skill kills left and right. There are final smashes that are better than others and do pretty much one hit kills (i.e. Marth, Sonic...) Play the game when it comes out. Have fun. And try it out for yourself before you start calling everyone else scrubs.

 

[kennypoopoo]

Well i think this has already been discussed before in different topics for melee and I didn't really read all three pages so this may have already been said. But tournaments are competitive play and weapons add a random factor to the game. With a game like smash which is fairly unbalanced and im sure Brawl will be fairly unbalanced as well when we start to know more about the actual meta-games of the characters, but adding in weapons and smash balls that spawn at random times and places is going to give one character a larger advantage in tournament play you should have everything as even as possible for every character thats why certain moves and techniques will and have been banned from tournament play. there will only be one smash ball out at a time its not just another move that a character has at there disposal because they need an item to use it. also to whoever said that matches without weapons are boring you really wouldnt like to be at my house. I'm the smash Nazi no weapons and we used to only fight on FD now we use all the tournament legal stages but still no weapons and every single smasher in my group has improved 10 fold because they no longer rely on weapons to do there fighting for them. and i dont know about you but i havent really seen a boring m2k match or a boring bombsoldier match if anything it would have been boring with them throwing fire flowers and mr saturns every where. but if you like fighting with weapons do it and dont complain to us about it if you want a touney with weapons throw your own and invite people that dont mind playing that way or if they would rather play without weapons who cares its your tourney.

 

[Bailey]

So you just want me to make a bet with you over 100 bucks. That's your reasoning for final smashes off. I really like how you have just been trolling this thread without any substance to your posting. Please just go away loser.

No that is for you calling me a scrub. If I am so bad then you will have no problem money matching me for that much.

EDIT: Your calling me a troll? You don't even know what that means you just saw someone else say it. Because you just joined and have 3 posts. You are basically the definition of a troll yourself.

 

[DQP]

i don't know if smash balls will be in tournaments. i've seen plenty of debates on this subject, but i think they shouldn't be in. to me it's a matter of avoidable and non-avoidable. for example, you can easily avoid the mario finale, but you can't really avoid falcon's or olimar's fs. so, in my opinion, smash balls should be banned. of course, that's just my opinion, and some of you may disagree.

 

[Aberu]

No that is for you calling me a scrub. If I am so bad then you will have no problem money matching me for that much.

EDIT: Your calling me a troll? You don't even know what that means you just saw someone else say it. Because you just joined and have 3 posts. You are basically the definition of a troll yourself.

I think replying with absolutely no backing to your opinion, flamebaiting with your ego, and not adding any substance to the thread at all is a pretty clear example of trolling. Me, on the other hand, my first post is pretty nicely backed up by my stance on items, what I think of people who have the power to run Majors taking their Melee biases into note when making a new tournament.

Do YOU know what a scrub is? Even if you have won a freagin tournament, and even if the community thinks your great, you are still acting like a scrub. No real legit tournament has been set down yet. So far every tournament is restricting how you play the game in many ways. Only 5-6 levels playable, items off, smash balls off, only one type of controller, not all 4 thus shutting out anyone who might be more comfortable with the other control schemes. Tournament organizers, and supporters of these boring, dated ways of competing are being scrubs by making intricate sets of rules of before they are even proven for the sole reason of them thinking things are cheap. I never saw Shiek/Fox/Falco/Marth/Peach get banned from any tournaments in Melee. Mainly because the most influential members of the community played those obviously overpowered characters. That in itself is a form of scrubbery.

Scrub is a way of life, not a rating of skill.

 

[Bailey]

By the way you look at tournaments it is clear who the scrub is.

No matter the argument presented Smash Balls will be off regardless there is almost no reason to argue.

 

[Aberu]

So what's wrong with how I look at tournaments.

By the way you look at items it is clear who the scrub is.

No matter the argument presented smash balls will be on regardless there is almost no reason to argue.

OMG totally a thread contribution and not a +1 trolling.

"No matter the argument presented..." already shows how ridiculously scrubby the people are. By Sirlin's definition of a scrub, you are exactly that. You have already made up your mind that every bit of power YOU have over the tournaments that you have been involved with will be used for your personal opinions of what is cheap. Scrub doesn't even really mean that you are good or bad at a game. Just that usually, people with a scrub attitude are bad at games since that attitude is synonymous with those who fail to improve their failure to play. In my experience, every person that wants items off is just bitter about losing because they couldn't handle playing with items on.

 

[Rizzle1110]

I think smashballs should not be in tournaments, because for some characters they are kindof cheap to use and would not make for a fair fight.

 

[Zankoku]

Aberu... I was going to debate with you some more on smash balls, items, your misconceptions of tournament rules, etc. but given all you're doing recently is targeting Bailey, I feel my words would be wasted.

 

[Miharu]

So what's wrong with how I look at tournaments.

By the way you look at items it is clear who the scrub is.

No matter the argument presented smash balls will be on regardless there is almost no reason to argue.

OMG totally a thread contribution and not a +1 trolling.

"No matter the argument presented..." already shows how ridiculously scrubby the people are. By Sirlin's definition of a scrub, you are exactly that. You have already made up your mind that every bit of power YOU have over the tournaments that you have been involved with will be used for your personal opinions of what is cheap. Scrub doesn't even really mean that you are good or bad at a game. Just that usually, people with a scrub attitude are bad at games since that attitude is synonymous with those who fail to improve their failure to play. In my experience, every person that wants items off is just bitter about losing because they couldn't handle playing with items on.

I find it that you're twisting Sirlin's definition of the term "scrub" to suit your own argument perfectly.

I have no more to contribute to this discussion if you can't see that final smashes are clearly imbalanced, and therefore will most likely be removed from tournament play.

Guess what? It's very likely that Saukrai went out of his way to make Brawl non-competitve. As a result, most of us couldn't give a **** about how Sakurai wants us to play the game. Incidentally, there is no one "right" way to play the game, either.

As I read over your post once again, it seems that you're just pulling generalizations out of your ***, such as the following:

In my experience, every person that wants items off is just bitter about losing because they couldn't handle playing with items on.

That's rich. We don't play with items because we can't "handle" it? A more accurate way of describing it is that we don't WANT to have to deal with those particular anomalies in tournament play. Turning items on in casual play? I'm all for that, since playing with items is rather fun, after all.

You have already made up your mind that every bit of power YOU have over the tournaments that you have been involved with will be used for your personal opinions of what is cheap.

It's not due to their inherent "cheapness." It's due to the unfairness that a gamebreaking item could drop next to your opponent instead of yourself.

Please stop pulling **** out of your ***. You're only embarrassing yourself and those that you're trying to represent.

 

[Blitzmidfielder]

I would like to see it being done. I'd like to see FS expiramented with in tournaments. They're really only an additional move; they do the same thing every time, and a good chunk require strategy to use. Just because one's not as useful as another, doesn't mean they're unbalanced. I mean... that's the concept behind Tier lists. Some characters are not as good as others, and as such, we don't ban characters.

 

[Miharu]

I would like to see it being done. I'd like to see FS expiramented with in tournaments. They're really only an additional move; they do the same thing every time, and a good chunk require strategy to use. Just because one's not as useful as another, doesn't mean they're unbalanced. I mean... that's the concept behind Tier lists. Some characters are not as good as others, and as such, we don't ban characters.

We don't remove things from competitive play because they're underpowered. We remove them because they're overpowered.

Trust me, a good majority of the "broken" final smashes take very little strategy to utilize.

 

[Bailey]

Kage won the thread with his last 2 posts so I am done.

HEY GUYS I AM A SCRUB BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE TO PLAY WITH ITEMS ON! YEA!

 

[Mario-]

Aberu has probably the worst logic i have ever seen in my life...

 

[Aberu]

We don't remove things from competitive play because they're underpowered. We remove them because they're overpowered.

Trust me, a good majority of the "broken" final smashes take very little strategy to utilize.

So you remove things because they are overpowered? Why hasn't anyone answered why you never removed Shiek/Marth/Fox/Falco/Captain Falcon/Peach from tournaments because they had an obvious advantage over the rest of the characters, and could sway a tournament in the favor of those who pick them.

 

[Zankoku]

Because then Ganondorf would be overpowered, seeing as how he has an advantageous matchup on every character below Marth. And the cycle would probably go on until we realize the roster's been reduced to the point that only Link and Luigi mains are winning tournaments since they're overpowered. Of course, we can keep going until the roster is down to Kirby vs Pichu matches, but then people would argue that Pichu has a strict advantage.

 

[Ryven]

EDIT: Ignore first paragraph, I wrote this before Ankoku's post, and his explanation of the character thing is better.

Hmm... Aberu, I think no one bans characters because the characters are predictable. They have the same moveset every time, and so picking one or another is a matter of strategy. People who play low-tier are very comfortable with the "disadvantaged" characters, and make a conscious choice to use a character that most people feel is underpowered.

Smash Balls are predictable, to an extent. A character with a Smash Ball gets the same move every time, and most can be avoided (spot-dodging works wonders on most one-shot ones, even ones like Kirby's that seem like they hit everything).

However, they appear often enough (2-3 times per game) that playing with them on is a completely different game than playing with them off. If you are using characters with strong final smashes, it really becomes a waiting game - the balls WILL show up, and it's only a matter of when, and closer to whom. I played Brawl a couple weeks ago, and I never had trouble breaking Smash Balls - with a little practice, I was able to nail them something like 80% of the time I got to them first. Then wait for them to try to smash me, and BAM! FS, and they were attacking, so no dodge for them.

My main impression of them was that they were frustrating - they stopped combat, made one character invincible, and changed the focus of play. If they weren't game altering - if we could expect , at most, one per match, it might be interesting. However, I'd rather not play "Let's camp for Smash Balls!" There were some other items I'd like to see, now that exploding capsules are gone - I quite like Bumpers and Springs, for instance, although Bumpers are probably too efficient at blocking edges. I just don't think Smash Balls are fun or interesting, and I'd rather have them off.

I see what you mean about how there is a game that could be played, which involves attempting to capture the most Smash Balls, that could be fair. However, I don't think it's as interesting as the game without them, which (from what I remember, and granted I only played for two days) seems to have better character balance, and is more exciting and less frustrating.

We can't really talk about "banning" or "scrubs" here. Smash Balls aren't an apparently-imbalanced technique or strategy, they're a ruleset feature - a defining part of the game. Brawl contains the tools to make a great many player-defined games, with the item switch, stage builder, and custom brawls. In the end, people will play the game they enjoy the most, with the stage and item settings they find challenging and competitive. Hardly anyone wants to play on Wario Ware, and have the stage intermittently tell them to stop fighting and play minigames. It's the same with 75m, with a platform layout that makes it difficult to find a place to stand and fight. Really, Smash Balls are a less pronounced form of the same phenomenon - many people don't want to play a game that periodically stops to let one player do whatever the hell they want, and rewards evasive, wait-and-see behavior with near-guaranteed kills lurking somewhere around the corner.

In the end, we're talking opinions about what kind of game we want to play. Smash Balls are a feature of a certain set of games which can be played with Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and aren't a feature of another set. No one thinks Smash Balls are cheap the way scrubs think some techniques are cheap; rather, some people think they lead to a game which is less consistent or fair, or would simply just rather not be made to play with them. Others enjoy them, and would like to play with them in a competitive environment. That's totally possible; small amounts of randomness are not always bad (see: poker). Both are equally valid games to play, but the question is whether one is willing to split the community over the issue, because the games are, to my eye, quite different, and will require different tournaments (or else to introduce the concept of minor ruleset changes to counterpicks, as was mentioned earlier; that could be a fun experiment).

I predict that two communities will not survive; if a split is attempted, one set with Smash Balls on in tourneys and one not, the smaller set will be absorbed into the larger one, for want of players.

 

[The_Trap]

they already have seen tournament play. http://www.nintendo.com/whatsnew/detail/wKSEnYl8x3xy-bJWsstxeQYTHrEQstTw

/thread

 

[Blitzmidfielder]

We don't remove things from competitive play because they're underpowered. We remove them because they're overpowered.

Trust me, a good majority of the "broken" final smashes take very little strategy to utilize.

If you hit. The closest character to have a truly unstoppable smash is Bowser.

... And he's BOWSER.

I'll also point out that what's been taken out of competitive play isn't overpowered. Shiek would be banned, then, and we'd have all stages and items. Stages and items are not overpowered. They're random/straight-up stupid. The lower-right area of Hyrule Temple isn't overpowered, it's just ridiculous to attempt killing someone in. Icicle mountain unfair? No, people just hate trying to play 'catch up' with the screen.

 

[Zankoku]

Icicle Mountain is random.

Temple is banned because a bunch of characters can play the camping game of running around in the natural circle on that stage and pretty much run out the clock.

Sheik being overpowered is lol, especially considering the small number that even make it to brackets in major tournaments nowadays.

 

[Shadow_Puppet]

I think the point that is trying to be made is that in a competitive scene the FS give an unprecedented advantage for some and none for others, and will most likely be banned from serious melee-type (FYI I don't mean SSBM, I mean using the moveset a character starts a match with...) tournaments, but that isn't to say that there will be no FS tourneys. I might even be inclined to join those just as much as melee-type tourneys just because of the fun factor they produce. But in the competitive scene, most people who would win in a match would want to do so with their melee skill not the luck of gaining a FS at the most convenient moment for them to pull a win out of nowhere. So IMO the FS won't be a part of competitive smash because it is more luck-based than skill to obtain which is not really what competive play is about but rather the skill a player has in using their character.

 

[Miharu]

If you hit. The closest character to have a truly unstoppable smash is Bowser.

... And he's BOWSER.

Marth, Falco, etc.

I'll also point out that what's been taken out of competitive play isn't overpowered. Shiek would be banned, then, and we'd have all stages and items. Stages and items are not overpowered. They're random/straight-up stupid. The lower-right area of Hyrule Temple isn't overpowered, it's just ridiculous to attempt killing someone in. Icicle mountain unfair? No, people just hate trying to play 'catch up' with the screen.

I'll admit that was a bad choice of phrasing.

Things are removed because they let you win based not on how good you are at the game, but based off of sheer luck (Random item drops and so on). Either that, or it can be easily abused (ie camping on Hyrule, Freeze Glitch, Wallbombing, etc.).

I'll also take the time to point out that you honestly do not know what you're talking about when it comes to competitive SSBM. Sheik being overpowered? Rofl, no.

 

[Dark Sonic]

lols at Shiek being overpowered. I guess that's why Marth and Fox are winning all the major tournies (except Pound 3. Props to Mango for his amazing upset).

 

[Betrayed]

I suppose Final Smashes will be a bit like Wobbling in Melee. Some people will allow it, some people won't.

I personally don't care. FS, to me, are just a part of the game meant to used for fun in non-competitive play. Sure, we're all having fun with them now, but they'll get old and we'll end up realizing that we're probably better off not using them in the tournament scene.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^No, they'll be banned because they are random, horribly unbalanced (what's with Marth getting a rediculous FS where Ness's sucks?), and spawn far too frequently on even the lowest setting.

 

[Fastest]

You're wasting time talking about the floating item.

Final Smashes will be banned because some are REALLY REALLY GOOD and some are REALLY REALLY BAD- and none of them follow a formula in terms of game balance.

For example: One of the best characters, Dedede, has one of the best final smashes. While one of the worst characters, Yoshi, has one of the worst.

Another example: I can completely evade half the final smashes in the game while some are inescapable 1 hit K.O.- and SOME can get you TWO KOs (*cough* LANDMASTERS *cough*).

 

[Aberu]

You're wasting time talking about the floating item.

Final Smashes will be banned because some are REALLY REALLY GOOD and some are REALLY REALLY BAD- and none of them follow a formula in terms of game balance.

For example: One of the best characters, Dedede, has one of the best final smashes. While one of the worst characters, Yoshi, has one of the worst.

Another example: I can completely evade half the final smashes in the game while some are inescapable 1 hit K.O.- and SOME can get you TWO KOs (*cough* LANDMASTERS *cough*).

Dedede is the one of the best characters based on whose expert opinion. 1 month at best of playing the game. Do games potentials, tier lists, balances of characters EVER get decided taht quickly historically in any fighting game. NO. Thus my main point as always, shutting out all items and FS' is purely for emotional biases and biases towards the small elite competitive base from a previous game that isn't anything like this one in terms of gameplay and balances on many levels. I think it's ignorant to ban all FS' and items in a brand new game at the first true SB.com organized major, I think it shows a lack of maturity, and no empathy towards the spectator whatsoever. Guess what, the spectator pays your prize money in most situations either through sponsors wanting to advertise and guaging attendance of spectators, or spectator attendance fees. They pay your bill. Just like a company, it is your responsibility to make it worth their while. In the grand scheme of things in video game competition, who gets the most spectators isn't because people who are watching are stupid or any elitist bull**** like that.

It's the lack of entertainment coming from the game that others hold up. Upsets and lucky occurances happen often enough in legitimized multi-billion dollar sports all the time that you think if they were THIS community they would all be babies and quit and NOT instead try to find ways to reduce that margin of luck with their own level of skill, or turn the luck in their favor by adapting. Final post for me in this topic here. Basically what I'm saying is, compared to legitimate sports stars and players who get paid $500k-$10mil to have lucky moments and upsets with a team, you guys aren't even beginning to understand what real competition is about.

 

[Bailey]

Aberu, you are just bad. Like honestly stop posting because all you have managed to accomplish is increasing my post count and you have proved nothing.

 

[otter]

You're wasting time talking about the floating item.

Final Smashes will be banned because some are REALLY REALLY GOOD and some are REALLY REALLY BAD- and none of them follow a formula in terms of game balance.

For example: One of the best characters, Dedede, has one of the best final smashes. While one of the worst characters, Yoshi, has one of the worst.

Another example: I can completely evade half the final smashes in the game while some are inescapable 1 hit K.O.- and SOME can get you TWO KOs (*cough* LANDMASTERS *cough*).

I know this is a matter of opinion but it's pretty safe to say that Yoshi's Final Smash is amazing.

 

[PXG]

Aberu, you are just flat out WRONG. Pretty much everything you said in that post is just incorrect and totally baseless. Its not even worth quoting and dissecting. Please, stop.

 

[Fastest]

I know this is a matter of opinion but it's pretty safe to say that Yoshi's Final Smash is amazing.

It's amazing if you're a drunk person with downs syndrome. I can avoid the entire thing without breaking a sweat.

 

[Fastest]

Dedede is the one of the best characters based on whose expert opinion. 1 month at best of playing the game. Do games potentials, tier lists, balances of characters EVER get decided taht quickly historically in any fighting game. NO. Thus my main point as always, shutting out all items and FS' is purely for emotional biases and biases towards the small elite competitive base from a previous game that isn't anything like this one in terms of gameplay and balances on many levels. I think it's ignorant to ban all FS' and items in a brand new game at the first true SB.com organized major, I think it shows a lack of maturity, and no empathy towards the spectator whatsoever. Guess what, the spectator pays your prize money in most situations either through sponsors wanting to advertise and guaging attendance of spectators, or spectator attendance fees. They pay your bill. Just like a company, it is your responsibility to make it worth their while. In the grand scheme of things in video game competition, who gets the most spectators isn't because people who are watching are stupid or any elitist bull**** like that.

It's the lack of entertainment coming from the game that others hold up. Upsets and lucky occurances happen often enough in legitimized multi-billion dollar sports all the time that you think if they were THIS community they would all be babies and quit and NOT instead try to find ways to reduce that margin of luck with their own level of skill, or turn the luck in their favor by adapting. Final post for me in this topic here. Basically what I'm saying is, compared to legitimate sports stars and players who get paid $500k-$10mil to have lucky moments and upsets with a team, you guys aren't even beginning to understand what real competition is about.

Aberu is a perfect example of someone who was terrible at melee and looks towards brawl as his beacon of hope. Oh how dreams are crushed!

 

[theONEjanitor]

i dont give a **** what sakurai thinks or what any player thinks. all I know is the facts. and the fact is Items, including smash balls throw off the competitive balance of the game. its a fact that can be demonstrably proven.
Tournaments are meant to decide who the most skilled player in the building is. Not who was the luckiest to get the right item at the right time. or who was luckiest to get the smash ball at the right time.

Everyone here is saying "obviously smashballs will be disallowed", but don't be so sure. I mean, its likely, if for no other reason than the follow the train of thought from all the other games. But according to a couple of the BRoomers, the only reason items were dissallowed in Melee was because of randomly exploding barrels and crates, not because they thought items threw off the balance of the game (which is ******** on their part, but i digress). So apparently the BRoom doesn't necessary agree that overpowered junk in the game needs to be banned, i suppose as long as its predictable.

If the BRoomers and Tourney Directors decide to allow items or smashballs in competetive play, I doubt I'll participate in the Brawl scene. I'm sure i'll play for fun, I just won't put my money on the line for what amounts to a game of luck.

Honestly I think Sheik and Marth ARE overpowered to some extent, they have very very few weaknesses unlike every other character in the game. The reason that they don't win tournaments is because ultimately SKILL > the character you choose. and Sheik and Marth players are generally less skilled than space animals players, simply because it takes less skill to play with sheik and marth. and perhaps that's the balance that justifies them being banned. You CAN beat them, you just have to actually be GOOD. you can't rely on a natural counter your character has over them. this is because you know what to expect from them. you can have a gameplan. For items and smash balls, there's no gameplan, except "get the smash ball and win" or "get the good items and win"
(BTW, sheiks win tournaments in Europe and Japan often...ever heard of Amsah?)

 

[lonesoldier]

go SMASHBALL!

....am i gonna be pelted with stones and text walls now?

 

[Dark Sonic]

go SMASHBALL!

....am i gonna be pelted with stones and text walls now?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147012

No, you'll be directed there. Have fun.