Will Captain Falcon ever win a National?

[Deleted member]

I know that true perfection is impossible
But ***, look at Armada's peach. That thing is seriously on levels above anything i'd ever seen from peach.

To use an incredibly oversimplified (possibly to the point of flagrant incorrectness lol) example, I see Jeapie has incredible tech skill that gives him a lot of options that I've never even thought of before. On the other hand, you have s2j, who doesn't do a lot of the stuff Jeapie does, but makes generally better decisions and thus ends up being the better Falcon. If s2j had Jeapie's tech skill or Jeapie had s2j's decision-making, an even better Falcon would result (hypothetically).

We don't have that Falcon though. Also consider that while this really good Falcon still doesn't exist, neither Jeapie nor s2j have pushed Falcon to the absolute human limits of what Falcon can do. So, technically, there's an even better Falcon build somewhere out there that we haven't reached yet.

I dunno, I think Falcons are actually doing prty well so I don't complain. s2j and hax take games from some big names and i see them place prty well in whatever tournament they attend

my tech skill besides platform drops is better than jeapies. Also, a lot of the stuff jeapie does I CAN do, but you can't just spam moves like a mother and expect it to work on everybody. Tricks are highly opponent dependent.

Play me on a good day when I'm having a lot of fun with the game and I'll go very quick, and **** with quickness


in the end though, i'm still highly flawed esp vs floaties and still have a buttload of room for improvement. Like Hax though I never really practice but lately my improvement has been coming so quick without playing at all

==

in terms of taking 'big names' I never play the people I want to play. I want to play Hbox in bracket, PP, Javi but I get a bracket either filled with floaties or socal dudes that I don't want to beat.

Just need to get better though!

edit: gunna watch some jeapie vids to make sure my tech skill is 'better' ROFL

 

[Niko45]

Realistically, no, it's very very unlikely. When I watch Hax play on point, it's the most inspiring thing in this game and it's clear to me that yes, it IS possible, but only if you can play like that all the time.

I actually think the top CF players are among the most talented players in general as they consistently overperform with this character, and really, historically very talented players have played this character at all stages of the metagame so I don't think a ton of hidden potential is dormant here.

He has really bad defensive options, a vulnerable combo weight and recovery, he has pretty average spacing tools, and generally will need multiple hard reads to execute his gameplan fully. These things open him up to really bad consistency issues at his core, which is a huge problem for winning a major tournament. Especially since he's up against characters that can spam frame advantage and option coverage near-effortlessly and play super safe while maintaining efficiency.

Everyone overrates mobility in this game. Mobility alone can not break through basic defensive options.

 

[Deleted member]

Jesus ****ing christ

europeans are so ****ing bad vs falcon its sickening

I KNOW ARMADA PWNS ME

==

jeapie reminds me of westballz, very technical and also not giving ****s. I think in tech skill though he DOES edge me out. But my fundamentals seem more consistent. Shield drops open up a lot of good options thoug

==

if you simplify falcon's game, I feel that "hard reads" turns into a game of 50/50, then gradually in your favor as you pick up on things about them. I do feel like sometimes bo3 is too little time to figure them out, but if you play assuming that someone is good/bad you already have a good starting point that you adjust based on the flow of their gameplay

however, for me, this is only vs spacies. I am extremely bad vs marths unless I pull out gimmicks, Tope ***** my shiek confidence

It becomes a matter of whether opponents like to spot dodge, roll, jump out of shield, stay in shield, attack out of tech in places, 95% of spacies I have played overuse some of these tactics and NEVER use others. It's all about figuring out the flow of your opponents and adjusting. Some are great at adjusting, others take too long

 

[leffen]

I actually think the top CF players are among the most talented players in general as they consistently overperform with this character, and really, historically very talented players have played this character at all stages of the metagame so I don't think a ton of hidden potential

yeah its totally not like mangos half ***** CF beats zhu everytime while THE MOST TALENTED PLAYER EVER AKA HAX loses to him

clearly a character problem

people who think cf players are the most skilled once are just wrong and hilariously biased

oh and ALL characters need to do hard reads, how is captain falcon any different?
Tech chasing doesn't ever require reads really, and you can cover more options with falcon than any other character.

if anything, peach and other characters require way more hard reads than cf since her combo game is hilariously much worse and she isnt fast enough to cover all options 99% of the time unlike falcon

 

[Hax]

All I'll say is leffen is extremely unknowledgeable about various aspects of falcon/this discussion

 

[Shroomed]

You guys are such crybabies! Play mid-low tier since falcon is so bad.

 

[JonnyW]

You guys are such crybabies! Play mid-low tier since falcon is so bad.

Looooool such a good quote.

 

[Iron Dragon]

Darkrain is something like 5-1 lifetime vs Tope. It's just that his one loss was a very significant, depressing, YouTube-publicized loss at Pound 4.

Well Tope didn't get good vs Falcon until later in his career. In fact in 08-09 every Falcon main(besides SS because he doesn't travel) had beaten Tope at one point or another. Hax, Scar and Darkrain all took him down solidly.

Ever since Genesis 1 where I'm guessing Tope saw the way M2K played vs Darkrain and had a revelation or some **** he's been ****** Sheik ever since lol.

But I definitely think it's possible for Falcon to win a national. He can zero to death tech chase ANY character(who are forced to tech at most percents where other followups aren't as good). And the other characters he DOESN'T ztd reaction tech chase he has relatively good followups at low-mid percents. I know that sounds a bit simplified but really I think Falcon has all the tools to make him a tournament winning character just that it's a little harder because he isn't as good as Fox or Falco and have nearly as many tools.

But that doesn't mean it's IMPOSSIBLE no, just HARDER. So is the life of a lower tiered character. Work hard for what you want to accomplish. Armada and Shroomed are terrific examples of this.

 

[JonnyW]

But I definitely think it's possible for Falcon to win a national. He can zero to death tech chase ANY character(who are forced to tech at most percents where other followups aren't as good). And the other characters he DOESN'T ztd reaction tech chase he has relatively good followups at low-mid percents. I know that sounds a bit simplified but really I think Falcon has all the tools to make him a tournament winning character just that it's a little harder because he isn't as good as Fox or Falco and have nearly as many tools.

This guy knows whatsup.

 

[Leviathan741]

All I'll say is leffen is extremely unknowledgeable about various aspects of falcon/this discussion

agreed

10chars

 

[leffen]

oh, at what points?


no I mean YEAH FALCON WILL NEVER WIN GUYS

continue maining him you couple of crybabies.

edit:
oh and I think its funny that Hax says that I don't know about something... that podcast LMFAO

that **** about peach dash attack being broken LOLLLL

 

[Battlecow]

Armada wins with peach

Even if peach is better than falcon, Shroomed does better than hax/s2j, and he does it with doc, who's almost universally considered to be worse than falcon AFAIK. So... Yeah. Falcon can win nationals. It might take more doing than with a spacie, but it can definitely be done. So basically what everyone else said.

Also leffen has stated a number of times that the only reason he ever posts is to troll people and "have fun" by saying ridiculous **** in as abrasive a way as possible, so taking him seriously or responding to him at all is kinda meh.

 

[leffen]

shhhhhhhhhhh

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

You know, usually when people say they play a lot worse in tournament, or that they are hella inconsistent, I just shrug it off, but Hax is not bull****ting at all. He still manages to get incredible placings, but I don't think there has ever been a national tournament when hes been on his A+ game. I've sat next to him when hes on fire. Its ****ing marvelous. Kid just goes HAM.

I don't think either Johnny or Aziz are that far from the top. They've both complained about training time in this thread, so if they can fix that, I'm sure they'll be on their way...

 

[Battlecow]

Hax lives in NYC and S2J lives in socal, no?

No practice johns for them, lol.

 

[Leviathan741]

silentspectre
also, just watched s2j vs. tope
good lord, will there be ANY falcon who can take down tope? o_0

Well Shiek was made to **** falcon so probably not.

 

[Niko45]

NYC smash is ****ing dead

 

[Max?]

n!gga i had to play jman for 25th

at apex

Tristate had to play each other WAY too much at Apex.

Really fake tbh.

NYC smash is dead, but PC's house is always looking to play and improve and you know that. G$ (despite how fake he is outside of teams) has that fire now and really wants to play and improve, so just convince him to drive out to PC's and tell him to stop bringing out the fake squad (aka, the washed up *****s who ONLY want to play teams and john a **** load) and start getting that practice in. PC is always down to play and wants to improve a lot, and if I still lived in the area you know I'd still be driving people to every tournament and to smashfests all the time. But sadly, I'm out and someone else has to step it up.

In the mean time, keep *****ing or get a license.

You guys are such crybabies! Play mid-low tier since falcon is so bad.

Agreed, all these *****s fake

NYC smash is ****ing dead

****ing Marvel.

 

[_Rocky_]

faketown

from now on i will never touch a controller outside of the 1-2 times a month i get to play others
**** practice

 

[iRobinhoood]

Hax is the reason I found Falcon.


I'm from Yonkers,NY but trust me I ain't no practice buddy lol. But I'm trying to get a place out on the island with a smash friend of mine. It will also put me closer to school. But in the long run it'd be cool to have a solid smash setup bi-weeky's/monthly's etc.


Hax where in NYC are you from? I used to work on Park and 87th.

 

[Mr Postman]

Dang, Hax always has to play Jman.

 

[Hax]

leffen can you please take your idiocy elsewhere? the falcon forum is a sanctuary among smashboards. i don't care if you ruin melee discussion threads or tournament threads, just please don't become a frequent poster here

i don't even remember what i said on that podcast i was so ****ing high. i sure as hell would never call peach's dash attack broken, though. maybe that's your way of rewording me stating that it's one of her many options out of CC that make it very difficult for falcon to approach her, which it is. i don't get how someone who comes from a continent that admittedly has zero falcon experience suddenly understands his options better than i do

also i know you didn't just try to use me supposedly being unknowledgeable about peach vs falcon (which i'm not) as a reason for why i can't call someone else unknowledgeable about something completely unrelated lmao....

iRobinhood i live in midtown. Max, we need to start inviting anyone who wants to get better to Tommy's fests, and we need to start treating our friendlies there like they're tournament matches. but seriously, a strong desire to get better is the best quality anyone can have

 

[iRobinhoood]

Much hostility, this thread has. Not getting a good vibe from it as a nooby.



@Hax
You ever been up north? What about the island? I heard some events happen out on the island.

 

[_Rocky_]

iRobinhood i live in midtown. Max, we need to start inviting anyone who wants to get better to Tommy's fests, and we need to start treating our friendlies there like they're tournament matches. but seriously, a strong desire to get better is the best quality anyone can have

Damn i should've stayed in tristate after Apex, the small glimpse i had of your community was awesome and I'd be down to smash all day lol

 

[Mr Postman]

Much hostility, this thread has. Not getting a good vibe from it as a nooby.

That's what happens when Leffen posts. always.

 

[Walt]

Much hostility, this thread has. Not getting a good vibe from it as a nooby.



@Hax
You ever been up north? What about the island? I heard some events happen out on the island.

I like the hostility. Gets me pumped and wanting to play. Bosstility.

 

[Twinkles]

s2j's posts **** lol
And now I'm hype for Hax's "A-game" and want to see it badly in tournament placings =P

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

then there's the fact that i literally never get to play melee because it's dead over here. when we do play, we smoke and **** around in teams. people don't really wanna get better. between RoM4 and Apex 2012, i played literally once for 3 hours (3 days before apex). for the most part, my training/improvement inbetween nationals involves thinking of stuff that should work and it usually does because i have a deep understanding of the game.

if u come to Li i am sure we can set some smash up. I know i for one would love to get to play against a top level falcon

 

[Windrose]

Maybe if s2j or hax comes to the FIRST CANADIAN NATIONAL? (ft. Armada, doctor peepee, s2j?)

​

I will house any falcon that comes:
uh oh...i think juggleguy is actually coming...i better check if i can actually house people... but 99.99% sure. and as sure as falco is homo.

 

[Hax]

iRobinhood and NAGACE i'd gladly play you guys on a free day. iRobinhood are you talking about long island? if you are then maybe the 3 of us could all play one day. i'd probably come with g$/alukard/jman if that's cool

haha yea rocky the few people that still play over here are awesome people

edit: now that i'm a 2nd term senior/have mad free time i might start taking this game really seriously again lol

 

[Tekk]

I can't wait to have the opportunity of travelling (which I probably will in my education) to get that american special training. o_o

 

[Leviathan741]

this. Even if you guys are gonna argue that OMG ARMADA ISNT A GOOD EXAMPLE PEACH IS 01831038103183018301 LIGHT YEARS BETTER THAN FALCON, please remember that it was Armada that showed you how good peach really was (noone really believed peach was this good, now people are saying shes even with fox... LOL) someone that puts in as much works as he did in peach to falcon could easily advance his metagame enough for him to look better than peach...
If a CF gets as good as Armada, it will take 1-2 months and then people are gonna change their opinions lol.

its all about the players.

Do you really even know anything about this game? How about life in general?

 

[JonnyW]

Do you really even know anything about this game? How about life in general?

Lol such a rude comment. Leffen is def good even if he trolls sometimes.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

iRobinhood and NAGACE i'd gladly play you guys on a free day. iRobinhood are you talking about long island? if you are then maybe the 3 of us could all play one day. i'd probably come with g$/alukard/jman if that's cool

haha yea rocky the few people that still play over here are awesome people

edit: now that i'm a 2nd term senior/have mad free time i might start taking this game really seriously again lol

I never met irobin but he has told me he goes to school on Long Island so i am sure thats what he is talking about.

Anyway yea it would be great if u could bring all of those players as well, The more high level players the better. Anyway I am about to start a full time job but i am free on the weekends and I guess after 5 or 6 on the weekdays. Just let me know ahead of time when u want to come so i can make sure i am free. And i am sure we will be able to find a place to play and stuff.

Also G$ knows me I was playing with him, soup, and and friend of mine not that long ago. (in case u r a little against meeting up with someone u dont know)

 

[iRobinhoood]

Yea Long Island. I travel to and from the island and Yonkers quite frequently so a stop in Manhattan would be nothing if there's something going on there. However, much to learn I still have. L-canceling is still on my learning agenda lol

 

[Warhawk]

Leffen, a Falcon has to play so much better than a Peach would to win a national... Falcon's got probably 3 matchups that are arguably 65-35 against him (although realistically its probably 2) and the matchups are among the most popular characters. Peach has probably one and Puff is definitely not a popular character. Not saying what Armada does isn't impressive (far from it) or that Falcon's cannot win a national (no one here is saying that despite what you think), it would just be very difficult and require a very on-point performance from that player.

 

[Battlecow]

There's definitely a school of thought that believes that Peach's fox matchup is just as bad as anything falcon faces (65-35 or whatever) and Armada routinely ***** the best foxes in the world en route to his victories.

She's below ya boi on the generally accepted tier list for a reason; it's just as hard or harder to win tourneys with her.

 

[SoaK]

Am I wrong in believing that using more U-Tilt's however "gay" (relative) it may be , will significantly improve falcon's chance to get deep in bracket?

I feel like I see a lot of of edgeguard opportunities that would be easy as pie with U-Tilt.

 

[JonnyW]

Am I wrong in believing that using more U-Tilt's however "gay" (relative) it may be , will significantly improve falcon's chance to get deep in bracket?

I feel like I see a lot of of edgeguard opportunities that would be easy as pie with U-Tilt.

you must not play against people who sweet spot.

 

[Warhawk]

She's below ya boi on the generally accepted tier list for a reason; it's just as hard or harder to win tourneys with her.

What "generally accepted tier list" has Peach below Falcon? How bad a character's worst matchups are is generally a good indication of how tournament viable the character is and Falcon's worst matchups I'd argue are harder to win than Peach's in addition to being more common.