why ppl dont want sheik in ssbb

[SiD]

I do think that the "stamina" idea, a 'la Pokémon Trainer is a good solution to the problem of Sheik's over-usage, but then I come back to the problem of Twilight Princess Zelda. Which is really more of an aesthetic issue rather than a gaming one. But I know I'm not the only one who'd be bothered by it.

Basically, I've kind of come to terms with the fact that Sheik's probably in (I take that one interview seriously), but I'm hoping for her to be included separate from Zelda.

That's stupid though, not only were Zelda's other moves not in TP, Zelda never used them at all.

 

[Speedsk8er]

I don't care if she returns, as long as the Ice Climbers come back.

But yeah, the ***** is broken. If not broken, then at least VERY overpowered.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I do think that the "stamina" idea, a 'la Pokémon Trainer is a good solution to the problem of Sheik's over-usage, but then I come back to the problem of Twilight Princess Zelda. Which is really more of an aesthetic issue rather than a gaming one. But I know I'm not the only one who'd be bothered by it.

Basically, I've kind of come to terms with the fact that Sheik's probably in (I take that one interview seriously), but I'm hoping for her to be included separate from Zelda.

As far as I've seen, Zelda is functioning not as a solely TP Zelda, since she's maintaining moves that were in Ocarina (Din's Fire anyone?), but adding a level of TP ascetic to them. Why can she not follow that pattern?

Why can't she be both?

Which, with a few exceptions, would kill Sheik's fanbase from Smash. Sheik does seem to have fans, but the vast majority want her for her hitboxes and fluent movements. There aren't many people who play as her purely for her character, as a Link or Ness player might.

That's what you think. There are plenty of people who adore Sheik as a character, or more accurately, an aspect of a character.

Not so. Those two actually have legitmate fanbases of people who like them for the characters that they are. Pikachu, in particular is insanely popular just by being a Pokemon. Sheik has no such character popularity to boast.

Again, says who?

You're making unfounded assumptions? The only way you can legitimately think that Sheik's fanbase is any less legitimate then anyone else's is if you take statistics about why people like Sheik and compare it to statistics of why people like the other characters that you are suggesting return.

You hold the opposite view of many. . . well, I'll say "Sheik discouragers" on this board. Including myself. Sheik is more of a reminder of how useless Zelda unfortunately is. You pick Zelda, the MAGIC-WIELDING PRINCESS that her series takes it's NAME from, and then use Sheik the whole match—a character who never even did anything in the game she was featured in, other than recite a few flowerly lines to Link while he was an adult. It's almost insulting, actually.

And WHO THE HELL SAYS THAT IT'S GONNA BE LIKE THAT FOR BRAWL?

Seriously, it's a new game, rebalanced, why there be no use for Zelda as compared to Sheik in brawl.

Personally, I freely switch between Zelda and Sheik during my matches, effectively doubling my move-set, but that's not the point, both Zelda and Sheik, if the latter gets in, WILL HAVE CHANGES.

Yes ofcoarse Sheik is a beloved character, but every character in Melee is just simply beloved. Melee is a very balanced game, and every character atleast has one pro player maining him/her. Even Pichu is beloved, so why should they take him out? Dr.Mario clearly is more populair than Mario himself, ofcoarse Sakurai won't cut him... or will he?

It's more often then not, a numbers game, however a lot of characters are in there to pay homage to important points in Nintendo's gaming history. Think about it, Pikachu is an icon, the only reason pichu got in (or even was initially created) was through riding on Pikachu's popularity, just like Plusle and Minun.

Doctor Mario is another example of this.

Sheik however, was important on his/her/it's/potato's own, AND as an aspect of an important character in the series, at a point that was radically important for the series as a whole, it's changeover to 3D, which produced, quite the game. Thus, Sheik was a very important benchmark in Nintendo's history.

Ike = Marth / Roy

Pardon me for my bluntness, but you're only saying that because you're American, or at least live in a country other then Japan.

It's VERY unlikely that Marth is leaving, and if he was, it would be very much akin to removing Mario from the game, and keeping Peach or Bowser.

Marth is the foundational Lord of the series, and a cultural Icon. The fact that he hasn't appeared in a recent game does not change this, Ike is nothing compared to Marth.

Roy is replaceable (as much as I dislike that fact), Marth is not.

Zero Suit Samus = Sheik

Similar charecter concept, true, but Zero Suit Samus has nowhere near the level of importance that Sheik does. All she did was appear in a remake of the first Metriod.

Wario = Mr.Game & Watch

Good luck with that, Mr. Game & Watch was very important to gaming as a whole, popularizing handhelds, and practically giving nintendo it's start.

And there are still a lot of very populair and wanted characters out there who could also easly replace some of the current characters on Melee's roster. Like:

Lucario = Mewtwo

While I support Lucario, Mewtwo is far more important to pokemon overall, and more recognizable. Definately needs new moves.

Lucas = Ness

Again, this is because you are NOT Japanese, it would be akin to removing Mario and keeping Peach.

I'm not expecting such a dramical change in the roster however, but I do think there's a huge change it might be the case for Sheik, since there frankly aren't very good reasons to keep her if they could just transfer her style into a whole new character.

I'm reminded of a game called Ocarina of Time.......

Seriously, the moveset isn't important, well, the ninja-esque style isn't, but Sheik certainly would still be Sheik with a toned-down moveset. The character however, is far more important then the moveset.

 

[Noshiee]

and also, how do we know that TP Zelda wasnt able to turn into Sheik, maybe she could but never did it 'couse she died very at the beggining of the game and resurrected at the very end before fighting Ganondorf.
As you can see, she has the Sheikah eye symbol in her robe.

I'm not saying she could do it, but there is a possibility .

 

[tafutureboy]

no shiek...zelda never turned into her in TP (which link and zelda are based off of)..plus someone said earlier she is stronger (too strong) and unfair...

 

[Noshiee]

no shiek...zelda never turned into her in TP (which link and zelda are based off of)..plus someone said earlier she is stronger (too strong) and unfair...

they are only based in their TP forms visually, 'couse I dont remember Zelda ever using those powers in TP, wait, she never used them in any Zelda game, Link was the on who used them in OoT.

 

[Lupo Aro]

no shiek...zelda never turned into her in TP (which link and zelda are based off of)..plus someone said earlier she is stronger (too strong) and unfair...

And Zelda could use Din's Fire/Farore's Wind in TP?

 

[adumbrodeus]

no shiek...zelda never turned into her in TP (which link and zelda are based off of)..plus someone said earlier she is stronger (too strong) and unfair...

Again, Zelda is still using Ocarina-exclusive moves (even though she didn't actually use them in Ocarina, but that's a different story, actually, this was the only one move she had that she actually used, the rest we Link's moves), why not the Sheik transformation considering that she's retaining her other moves irregardless of TP Zelda never using them. This is an even greater point especially considering that Zelda does bear some connection to the Sheikah, as an earlier poster brought up, she bears their symbol.



As for unfair, same holds true to a far greater degree with Fox, but he's still in. You have to remember that the game will be rebalanced for Brawl's release, of course Sheik might still be high tier, but that'd be just chance, and no more likely then Bowser being high tier. Of course in all probability, he/she/it/potato will be weaker, remember the staggering difference between the Ness of SSB and SSBM?

 

[Zone]

Similar charecter concept, true, but Zero Suit Samus has nowhere near the level of importance that Sheik does. All she did was appear in a remake of the first Metriod.

I don't understand where u get ur facts of importance from Zero Suit Samus vs Shiek? In a sense Zero suit samus is in every game... cuz Zero suit samus is inside Samus' robotic shell >.>'

As Shiek is Zelda, she was only in 1 Zelda game from a different Era of Zeldas.

 

[yoshi_fan]

Again, Zelda is still using Ocarina-exclusive moves (even though she didn't actually use them in Ocarina, but that's a different story, actually, this was the only one move she had that she actually used, the rest we Link's moves), why not the Sheik transformation considering that she's retaining her other moves irregardless of TP Zelda never using them. This is an even greater point especially considering that Zelda does bear some connection to the Sheikah, as an earlier poster brought up, she bears their symbol.



As for unfair, same holds true to a far greater degree with Fox, but he's still in. You have to remember that the game will be rebalanced for Brawl's release, of course Sheik might still be high tier, but that'd be just chance, and no more likely then Bowser being high tier. Of course in all probability, he/she/it/potato will be weaker, remember the staggering difference between the Ness of SSB and SSBM?

Lol'ed at that.

and u have a point. The characters will be balanced

 

[Lupo Aro]

I don't understand where u get ur facts of importance from Zero Suit Samus vs Shiek? In a sense Zero suit samus is in every game... cuz Zero suit samus is inside Samus' robotic shell >.>'

As Shiek is Zelda, she was only in 1 Zelda game from a different Era of Zeldas.

Samus removed her suit at some point in every game, not counting Pinball. The only games she had Zero suit were Zero Mission, Prime 2, Hunters, and Prime 3.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't understand where u get ur facts of importance from Zero Suit Samus vs Shiek? In a sense Zero suit samus is in every game... cuz Zero suit samus is inside Samus' robotic shell >.>'

As Shiek is Zelda, she was only in 1 Zelda game from a different Era of Zeldas.

And by the same token, Sheik was in every game since Sheik and Zelda are the same person. That particular alter-ego just never appeared on-screen, just like that particular alter-ego of Samus did not appear onscreen.


So what if it's a different Zelda Era, Ocarina was a the turning point for the series, and an utterly beloved game at that. It's not like they're not still referencing back to it, with Zelda's regular moves anyway, and it's not like in the new game Zelda bears no connections to the Sheikah.

So, why not?

Samus removed her suit at some point in every game, not counting Pinball. The only games she had Zero suit were Zero Mission, Prime 2, Hunters, and Prime 3.

Heh? Hunters? Haven't finished Prime 2 or 3, but I finished Hunters, and I NEVER saw the Zero suit.

Lol'ed at that.

and u have a point. The characters will be balanced

As much as I'd love to take credit, it references to what other people said earlier.

And I really wish people would get that, the game WILL be rebalanced.

 

[blueriku]

and also, how do we know that TP Zelda wasnt able to turn into Sheik, maybe she could but never did it 'couse she died very at the beggining of the game and resurrected at the very end before fighting Ganondorf.
As you can see, she has the Sheikah eye symbol in her robe.

I'm not saying she could do it, but there is a possibility .

story wise the royal family is close with the sheikah since the sheikah are their royal guards and care takers so each zelda knowing a whole lot bout sheikah is very likely even more so most zeldas having a sheik like alter ego is also very like it is just they never use it for some reason all zeldas are excel d at magic and turning into sheik does take magic for two reasons
1. her appearance (eyes are red and skin is darker) and 2 to summon her sheikah attire so just my two cents on that.

 

[Katy Parry]

The key reasons why people don't want Sheik to come back are:

1. The most important reason: Sheik is broken.

2. Nobody picks Zelda to actually use Zelda; it's not fair to her (nor is it fair that Sheik's presence actually pushes her further down the tiers).

3. The Brawl Zelda is the TP Zelda, who cannot turn into Sheik.

I personally don't care that much if he comes back (since TP Zelda doesn't transform they can just make Sheik a separate character and give him and Zelda new Down+B moves); what I care more about is whether or not he'd remain so broken. I like Sheik, but not as he is in Melee.

Why can't she turn into Shiek? Did someone say she couldn't? Besides, Shiek's practically confirmed anyway. It would be stupid of them to seperate the same character...it's like seperating Peach from Toad....it's stupid...

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Again, this is because you are NOT Japanese, it would be akin to removing Mario and keeping Peach.

Your post was good until this. What makes you think Ness is similar to Mario? He's not the main character of the Mother series, he's the main character of Mother 2, that is all, and was originally going to be replaced by Lucas in Melee. Most likely Lucas is going to be in Brawl with an improved version of Ness' moveset with Ness being an alt for him (and probably Claus, also). Basically Ness only with a different name and color without a hat.

 

[Bassoonist]

Why can't she turn into Shiek? Did someone say she couldn't? Besides, Shiek's practically confirmed anyway. It would be stupid of them to seperate the same character...it's like seperating Peach from Toad....it's stupid...

I have to disagree with that. Toad is a completely different character from Peach. Peach never used Toad like that in games.

Sheik and Zelda however are the same person.

On to the topic at hand, I just personally don't think that Sheik should leave. Zelda may have her new appearance, but what, do you think that in order for Sheik to be Zelda's transformation that she has to have the appearance of the Ocarina of Time Zelda?

 

[Noshiee]

agree, she supposed to represent all the zeldas from all games, not just TP

 

[Drake3]

And by the same token, Sheik was in every game since Sheik and Zelda are the same person. That particular alter-ego just never appeared on-screen, just like that particular alter-ego of Samus did not appear onscreen.

I'm just curious, but I thought that there were several theories about the different Zelda games. One of them being yes, they are all on the same storyline, and another being no, that every Zelda game is different from one another but holds similarities to one another. If the latter is true, then Sheik was a one time deal. If the former is true, then yes, Sheik is always a part of Zelda.

I don't mind if Sheik returns, but if she does, I want her to be seperate from Zelda. Think that's too weird? I recall alot of "Brawl TP Zelda uses OoT magic...that she never even had in the first place! O_o" Why can't there be something in the story where Sheik is separated from Zelda? Why can't Smash Bros. change around a few things like it already has?

Why do I want them seperate? So that Zelda isn't handicapped. A transformation character means 2 characters must be halved in order to work together. It's an extremely difficult thing to pull off and has already failed once. They just don't complement each other.

 

[Circus]

As far as I've seen, Zelda is functioning not as a solely TP Zelda, since she's maintaining moves that were in Ocarina (Din's Fire anyone?), but adding a level of TP ascetic to them. Why can she not follow that pattern?

You're operating under the assumpting that those attacks are actually still considered OoT attacks. Link has basically the same moveset as he had from Melee, but they got a TP revamp. Notice the lack of that old, dinky boomerang since TP Link never had it?

Yes, we've seen Zelda use an attack that looks like Din's Fire. That doesn't mean they still call it that. I could very easily see them simply calling that attack something else (hell, "Zelda's Fire" would work fine), especially since that attack in Melee didn't even work the same way it does in OoT. Her attacks, so far, are indeed Melee based, but there's no evidence to suggest that they're still OoT based.

Why can't she be both?

She can. I'm just saying that it would bother me.

That's what you think. There are plenty of people who adore Sheik as a character, or more accurately, an aspect of a character.

As I said in the very post you quoted, I acknowledge that there are actual Sheik fans out there, but you can't tell me that group of people is actually big enough for Sheik to return on that merit alone. Too many people want Sheik back because "she's my main! I would suck without her!"

I'm not hating on Sheik because there's anything specifically wrong with her; I'm hating on her because she's just as important as all the other non-Triforce characters. She's gained popularity based on her performance in Melee. A glorified extra, if you will.

Again, says who?

You're making unfounded assumptions? The only way you can legitimately think that Sheik's fanbase is any less legitimate then anyone else's is if you take statistics about why people like Sheik and compare it to statistics of why people like the other characters that you are suggesting return.

This seems like a good idea, but I trulyl think that people would vote "I really DO like Sheik!" just because they know that's the option favoring her for a reappearance in Brawl. That's not me being biased, just honest. I would not expect accurate results from a poll like that.

The fact is, without being able to prove it to you since I'm not so anal about citing the posts I read, I've seen more comments about "Sheik's my main, I love her in Melee. She can't leave!" than any other character. The amount of "Sheik's interesting and I've always loved her. Ever since Ocarina of Time" posts are few and far between in my experience. Although, again, I do acknowledge that true fans exist. But that can be said about any character.

And WHO THE HELL SAYS THAT IT'S GONNA BE LIKE THAT FOR BRAWL?

Seriously, it's a new game, rebalanced, why there be no use for Zelda as compared to Sheik in brawl.

I was talking more about Melee in that paragraph, and what a travesty I felt the Sheik situation was. I never said that she would be exactly the same way in Brawl. That's NOT the reason I want her (at least) separated from Zelda.

Personally, I freely switch between Zelda and Sheik during my matches, effectively doubling my move-set

Good for you.

but that's not the point, both Zelda and Sheik, if the latter gets in, WILL HAVE CHANGES.

I never said they wouldn't. In fact, I'm quite hoping for changes (specifically, both of their down-B's).

Sheik however, was important on his/her/it's/potato's own

Not a fact, don't state it like one. She was important to OoT's plot to about the same degree that any of the sages were. I don't see many people pulling for Princess Ruto for Brawl.

AND as an aspect of an important character in the series, at a point that was radically important for the series as a whole, it's changeover to 3D, which produced, quite the game.

True. That game is now about a decade old, though. Let's stop clinging to the past, shall we?

Thus, Sheik was a very important benchmark in Nintendo's history.

No. Ocarina of Time was the benchmark. Sheik just happened to be there.

Similar charecter concept, true, but Zero Suit Samus has nowhere near the level of importance that Sheik does. All she did was appear in a remake of the first Metriod.

And all Sheik did was appear in one Zelda game, to throw cryptic hints at Link. How is she more important?

 

[Yojimbo]

Whatever they're going to do with Sheik, I just hope they drop the trasformation idea. It just doesn't work in practice, everybody just use one or the other.

Then again, Sheik doesn't make much sense as a separate character either (she IS Zelda after all) so I just hope they remove her at all and give Zelda some new down B attack, also considering Sheik didn't appear in the most recent Zelda game.

Maybe they could put an item that only spawns when Zelda is in a match that transform her into Sheik for a limited period of time, or just put a time limit on the down B trasformation that she uses now.

Uh, Dr. Mario = Mario?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Uh, Dr. Mario = Mario?

Dr. Mario won't be in Brawl though

 

[RBinator]

How come the overpowered argument is still being used? Brawl isn't Melee. I wonder if the other high or top tier characters had to face such arguments. Also, as for the "TP Zelda can't transform into Sheik" argument, it depends if Sakurai is gonna be faithful or not. I don't think it could be proven either way, which is why I don't have an actual counter argument. "I would think it's strange for such an event to happen" is something I don't see how it counts as an argument. Just because people think it would be strange doesn't mean it couldn't happen. There wasn't people who were like "WTF!" over Pokémon Trainer? Again like I said, I don't think there's solid proof either way if Sakurai will make them the same, apart, or even put Sheik in the game playable. As for the article about working on designs, that's all it said. Designs != playable.

Also, I know this argument has been countered before, but I didn't see it yet in this topic. How come what is believed to be TP Zelda transforming into Sheik such a big problem, but not Bowser transforming into Giga Bowser when he never did such a thing in his own games?

Dr. Mario won't be in Brawl though

Ain't you assuming things a bit much? Sure most don't expect him to return, including those who main'ed him like me, but it doesn't mean we know if he's in the game in some kind of form or not.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik however, was important on his/her/it's/potato's own, AND as an aspect of an important character in the series, at a point that was radically important for the series as a whole, it's changeover to 3D, which produced, quite the game. Thus, Sheik was a very important benchmark in Nintendo's history.

Why only Sheik? It was just the game she comes from right? Sheik didn't even had that big of a role in OoT at all, it was still Zelda after all and we want Zelda to represent all Zelda's in Brawl right? Well than they'd do better with giving her the Light Arrows, since she atleast had them in 2 games and it represents the latest 2 3D Zelda games, the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess while a Sheik transformation only represents Ocarina of Time.

Even Mario has a modernised moveset now. And that's saying pretty much, seeing as the Zelda franchise is more known for it's changes than Mario. Almost every Zelda game which isn't a direct sequel takes place in a whole different time and place and features new characters and places and even new weapons (Gale Boomerand for example). That's why I think that Zelda represents OoT enough with Din's Fire, Nayru's Love and Faore's Wind already and doesn't need Sheik to even represent OoT more.

Pardon me for my bluntness, but you're only saying that because you're American, or at least live in a country other then Japan.

It's VERY unlikely that Marth is leaving, and if he was, it would be very much akin to removing Mario from the game, and keeping Peach or Bowser.

Marth is the foundational Lord of the series, and a cultural Icon. The fact that he hasn't appeared in a recent game does not change this, Ike is nothing compared to Marth.

Roy is replaceable (as much as I dislike that fact), Marth is not.

I thought I mentoined that I once doubted the possibility that Marth will be out aswell, but after seeing more and more of Ike I think it could easly go either way. True, Marth is insanely populair in Japan, and thanks to Melee even internationally.

But it ISN'T true that Ike can't be compared to Marth! Ike comes from the first 3D Fire Emblem, Path of Ridiance which brought back a lot of classic elements to the franchise. PoR is populair in the West AND Japan and the game even has a direct sequel already out in Japan coming soon in the U.S and Europe.

Sure Marth is the first Lord, and that's saying quite something I agree but Ike's deffinatly not as unimportant as you give him credit to. But still, Ike has a lot of similairities to Marth. I don't say he can't be unique - cause I know he can I've played PoR a lot. Still, Marth might have a few changes in his moveset aswell...

Similar charecter concept, true, but Zero Suit Samus has nowhere near the level of importance that Sheik does. All she did was appear in a remake of the first Metriod.

Atleast she was playable and appeared in more games than Sheik. Besides, Metroid has fewer really important characters to choose from. Who else besides Ridley do you honestly expect to be in?? Prime isn't as loved internationally, and the Hunters aren't playable character worthy, just maybe AT's.

You won't hear me say that Zero Suit Samus really deserved her place in Brawl, but I accept her better than Sheik.

Good luck with that, Mr. Game & Watch was very important to gaming as a whole, popularizing handhelds, and practically giving nintendo it's start.

Sure, but still seeing Mr. Game & Watch playable for the second time wouldn't really be half as suprising as it was in Melee. I'm sure the Game & Watch era will be represented somehow, but I just don't see Mr. Game & Watch playable again, maybe he'll become an Assist Thropy?

While I support Lucario, Mewtwo is far more important to pokemon overall, and more recognizable. Definately needs new moves.

Actually, I'd hate the idea of Lucario replacing Mewtwo and I fully agree with you there however it doesn't mean the possibility is there, much like there's the possibility Zero Suit Samus and Wario replace Sheik and Mr. Game & Watch. Lucario replacing Mewtwo is just... a little less likely.

Again, this is because you are NOT Japanese, it would be akin to removing Mario and keeping Peach.

Ehm, wouldn't I be supporting the Japanese by saying Lucas would replace Ness? As far as I know, Mother 3 was only released in Japan, while Earthbound also got released in the U.S. True, cause I live in Europe I never officially could play Earthbound, but that's where ROMs are for. =) Besides, if Mother 3 was released on the N64, Sakurai already would've replaced Ness for Lucas as he apperantly told the Japanese on the Melee Dojo website.

I'm reminded of a game called Ocarina of Time.......

Seriously, the moveset isn't important, well, the ninja-esque style isn't, but Sheik certainly would still be Sheik with a toned-down moveset. The character however, is far more important then the moveset.

Well I can't add anything to that, but I still think Sheik as a character doesn't deserves to come back.

 

[Zone]

And by the same token, Sheik was in every game since Sheik and Zelda are the same person. That particular alter-ego just never appeared on-screen, just like that particular alter-ego of Samus did not appear onscreen.


So what if it's a different Zelda Era, Ocarina was a the turning point for the series, and an utterly beloved game at that. It's not like they're not still referencing back to it, with Zelda's regular moves anyway, and it's not like in the new game Zelda bears no connections to the Sheikah.

So, why not?





Heh? Hunters? Haven't finished Prime 2 or 3, but I finished Hunters, and I NEVER saw the Zero suit.




As much as I'd love to take credit, it references to what other people said earlier.

And I really wish people would get that, the game WILL be rebalanced.

From my understanding Zelda is a different person each game? Correct me if I'm wrong.
There isn't a different Samus each game. That's really the only point I was making.

Besides I still don't know where u get ur facts that Shiek is more important than Zero Suit Samus. *Shrugs*

 

[Drake3]

I don't see many people pulling for Princess Ruto for Brawl.

Excellent idea!

B - Sit Down
Down+B -Sit Down
Up+B -Sit Down
Side+B -Sit Down

Taunt - "You may carry me."

 

[Circus]

How come the overpowered argument is still being used? Brawl isn't Melee. I wonder if the other high or top tier characters had to face such arguments.

I think the main difference is that the other top tiers are actually important characters in their own right. Fox? Main character of his game. Falco? Second most important character in his game, and arguably more popular among the fans than Fox. Marth? Main character in his game, and the first Lord of his series. Peach? C'mon, you know where I'm going.

The reason Sheik is under fire is because she's not an all-star. Zelda is, of course, but we've already got her. Sheik is not a vital piece of the Zelda franchise.

Also, as for the "TP Zelda can't transform into Sheik" argument, it depends if Sakurai is gonna be faithful or not. I don't think it could be proven either way, which is why I don't have an actual counter argument. "I would think it's strange for such an event to happen" is something I don't see how it counts as an argument. Just because people think it would be strange doesn't mean it couldn't happen. There wasn't people who were like "WTF!" over Pokémon Trainer? Again like I said, I don't think there's solid proof either way if Sakurai will make them the same, apart, or even put Sheik in the game playable. As for the article about working on designs, that's all it said. Designs != playable.

This is all true. Admittedly, the "TP Zelda transforming into Sheik" thing is really more of an annoyance than an actual problem or impossibility. Sakurai could certainly do it; nothing's stopping him. That would just really bother a lot of people, including myself.

Also, I know this argument has been countered before, but I didn't see it yet in this topic. How come what is believed to be TP Zelda transforming into Sheik such a big problem, but not Bowser transforming into Giga Bowser when he never did such a thing in his own games?

I actually do have a problem with Bowser becoming Giga Bowser. There's just nothing I can do about it.

 

[Noshiee]

Excellent idea!

B - Sit Down
Down+B -Sit Down
Up+B -Sit Down
Side+B -Sit Down

Taunt - "You may carry me."

lololol!!! xD that was so funny!

Impa (OoT one but cooler) for Brawl!!!

 

[blueriku]

I think the main difference is that the other top tiers are actually important characters in their own right. Fox? Main character of his game. Falco? Second most important character in his game, and arguably more popular among the fans than Fox. Marth? Main character in his game, and the first Lord of his series. Peach? C'mon, you know where I'm going.

The reason Sheik is under fire is because she's not an all-star. Zelda is, of course, but we've already got her. Sheik is not a vital piece of the Zelda franchise.

This is all true. Admittedly, the "TP Zelda transforming into Sheik" thing is really more of an annoyance than an actual problem or impossibility. Sakurai could certainly do it; nothing's stopping him. That would just really bother a lot of people, including myself.

I actually do have a problem with Bowser becoming Giga Bowser. There's just nothing I can do about it.

UMM yes she is with out sheik link would of never of gotten to ganondorf. also zelda would of been captured after link was locked in the sacred realm meaning ganondorf would of had the triforce since all he had to do was take links while he was sleeping so with out sheik the whole story would of fell apart so sheik was and is important as for the all-star thing who cares she is a great character.


first off why is it disturbing to see TP zelda turn into sheik ? and second it will fit since Eiji Aonuma announced that since his designers are redesigning sheik, they are designing her as if she would be in TP (like a what if design if you will) so it should fit

 

[Circus]

UMM yes she is with out sheik link would of never of gotten to ganondorf.

As I stated, the same can be said for any of the sages. Do you want Ruto or Darunia in Brawl?

also zelda would of been captured after link was locked in the sacred realm meaning ganondorf would of had the triforce since all he had to do was take links while he was sleeping so with out sheik the whole story would of fell apart so sheik was and is important as for the all-star thing who cares she is a great character.

Yes, she's important to Ocarina of Time's story. That's it. She's important for one aspect of one game. And as I keep saying, it's not like Sheik held together the entire plot herself. Yes, Zelda disguising herself as Sheik is what kept her safe from Ganondorf. But that one blonde/red-head boy in Kokiri Forest blocks you from the Great Deku Tree until you get your sword and shield. Does that mean he should be in the game since without him in the game you essentially would have never gotten your first sword?

first off why is it disturbing to see TP zelda turn into sheik ?

Because TP Zelda doesn't turn into Sheik. Although the Sheikah are a somewhat reoccurring theme in the Zelda franchise, Sheik herself is a specific aspect of the Ocarina of Time Zelda. The reason Zelda's magic attacks are a different matter than Sheik is because Zelda has always been magically inclined in every game. The Sheikah training was an OoT-only type of deal. It makes much more sense to see Zelda performing SOME type of magic that we may not have seen her use specifically than it does to see her transform into a different person that she essentially has never turned into before (what with it being a different "Zelda" in each game).

Now, I realize that Zelda's look in Brawl is merely an aesthetic change, and I understand that Sakurai and the gang could still keep Sheik attached to her. All I'm saying is that it would bother me, personally, to see them be a part of each other. If Sheik simply MUST be in the game, then I just hope she's somehow separate from Zelda. Honestly, TP Zelda transforming into Sheik makes as much sense to me as Mario transforming into Sheik.

and second it will fit since Eiji Aonuma announced that since his designers are redesigning sheik, they are designing her as if she would be in TP (like a what if design if you will) so it should fit

And that bothers me. Because there IS no TP Sheik. I acknowledge that it seems to have happened, I'm just expressing my disapproval. The same way I disapprove of Giga Bowser.

But on a side note, I don't actually remember reading that they were changing her design specifically so it would fit better with Twilight Princess Zelda. I just read that they were updating her look.

 

[Noshiee]

As I stated, the same can be said for any of the sages. Do you want Ruto or Darunia in Brawl?

Yes, she's important to Ocarina of Time's story. That's it. She's important for one aspect of one game. And as I keep saying, it's not like Sheik held together the entire plot herself. Yes, Zelda disguising herself as Sheik is what kept her safe from Ganondorf. But that one blonde/red-head boy in Kokiri Forest blocks you from the Great Deku Tree until you get your sword and shield. Does that mean he should be in the game since without him in the game you essentially would have never gotten your first sword?

Because TP Zelda doesn't turn into Sheik. Although the Sheikah are a somewhat reoccurring theme in the Zelda franchise, Sheik herself is a specific aspect of the Ocarina of Time Zelda. The reason Zelda's magic attacks are a different matter than Sheik is because Zelda has always been magically inclined in every game. The Sheikah training was an OoT-only type of deal. It makes much more sense to see Zelda performing SOME type of magic that we may not have seen her use specifically than it does to see her transform into a different person that she essentially has never turned into before (what with it being a different "Zelda" in each game).

Now, I realize that Zelda's look in Brawl is merely an aesthetic change, and I understand that Sakurai and the gang could still keep Sheik attached to her. All I'm saying is that it would bother me, personally, to see them be a part of each other. If Sheik simply MUST be in the game, then I just hope she's somehow separate from Zelda. Honestly, TP Zelda transforming into Sheik makes as much sense to me as Mario transforming into Sheik.

And that bothers me. Because there IS no TP Sheik. I acknowledge that it seems to have happened, I'm just expressing my disapproval. The same way I disapprove of Giga Bowser.

But on a side note, I don't actually remember reading that they were changing her design specifically so it would fit better with Twilight Princess Zelda. I just read that they were updating her look.

oh GOD dude, it doesnt affects you at all if Sheik is in or not!, is not like you are going to kill yourself if it happens, and...
1. The red haired kokiri is not nearly as immportant to Sheik.
2. "Sheik was immportant in OoT only"...so? the FLUDD is in and it only was in one game.
3. "TP Zelda dosnt turn into Sheik", neither does she uses Din's Fire, Farore's Wind...wait, non of the Zeldas in all games has EVER used thosemagic powers, only Link, in OCARINA OF TIME ONLY...
4. "TP Zelda transforming into Sheik makes as much sense to me as Mario transforming into Sheik"...no, it doesnt...
5. Also, for your quoted thing, Link could have never contacted the sages, not counting the Light one, if it was'nt for Sheik.

 

[Zone]

you know there is a chance they are working on shieks design to be in the game as an assist trophy instead of a character. If it's "a design they are working on" for shiek. It may not be character selectable. She could be anything.

So knowing they are working on her design proves nothing about her being a playable character.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

you know there is a chance they are working on shieks design to be in the game as an assist trophy instead of a character. If it's "a design they are working on" for shiek. It may not be character selectable. She could be anything.

So knowing they are working on her design proves nothing about her being a character.

No to that

 

[Zone]

No to that

No to that? Why don't you elaborate instead of making a opposing view and then not using anything to support it?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

No to that? Why don't you elaborate instead of making a opposing view and then not using anything to support it?

Why do I have to....I don't like the idea...Shiek may have been broken but was unique...


Besides, no one has any proof of anything, just imaginary stuff they think means the character has a chance

 

[Zone]

Why do I have to....I don't like the idea...Shiek may have been broken but was unique...


Besides, no one has any proof of anything, just imaginary stuff they think means the character has a chance

That was my point exactly... I didn't say NO to shiek. I'm just stating that them working on her Design doesn't prove she's a playable character.

 

[Circus]

oh GOD dude, it doesnt affects you at all if Sheik is in or not!, is not like you are going to kill yourself if it happens

That's true. In fact, I've stated more than once that I'm okay with Sheik being in Brawl as long as she isn't attached to Zelda. And even if she is, I'll obviously just deal with it.

1. The red haired kokiri is not nearly as immportant to Sheik.

Instead of just stating "facts", how about backing them up? HOW is she more important? Would you argue that the game would've worked out had Link never gotten his sword? PLENTY of things could have gone wrong for Link to **** up the whole story. SEVERAL characters impacted Link and allowed him to defeat Ganondorf. What makes Shiek specifically more impactful than some such as the Kokiri kid who essentially allows you to get your first sword? Or Saria who gives you your first ocraina? Or any of the other sages who give you the medallions?

2. "Sheik was immportant in OoT only"...so? the FLUDD is in and it only was in one game.

Difference: Sunshine was Mario's most recent console title. OoT is, what, nine or ten years old? And it's had two console titles since then. The developers are CLEARLY leaning in favor of Twilight Princess for Brawl, as Link's and Zelda's designs show, as well as Link's moves AND the Bridge of Eldin stage. Nothing in particular hints at any trace of Ocarina of Time (Even Zelda's moves aren't even close to being proof, which I've explained before).

3. "TP Zelda dosnt turn into Sheik", neither does she uses Din's Fire, Farore's Wind...wait, non of the Zeldas in all games has EVER used thosemagic powers, only Link, in OCARINA OF TIME ONLY...

*sigh*

I've said this before. We do not know they she uses any of those moves. We have seen her use a move that looks like Din's Fire did in Melee, and we've seen here teleport in a cutscene. We have no idea what those moves are currently called. For all we know, they are now just generic "Zelda magic".

The reason it's okay for Zelda to use magic that we haven't specifically seen her use before is because it is generally understood in every single Zelda game that Zelda is magically-inclined. But she has only has Sheikah training in one game. Zelda is a magician. Always. She's only been a ninja (if you want to call her that), once.

4. "TP Zelda transforming into Sheik makes as much sense to me as Mario transforming into Sheik"...no, it doesnt...

. . . . o_O

Excuse me, but did you just tell me that I was wrong about something regarding my own opinion? That's awfully arrogant of you. I said that "TP Zelda transforming into Sheik makes as much sense to me as Mario transforming into Sheik". It's literally impossible for you to tell me that's wrong. . . .

5. Also, for your quoted thing, Link could have never contacted the sages, not counting the Light one, if it was'nt for Sheik.

I've already said, several times, that Sheik is indeed important to OoT's story. That's not the issue. The issue is that she still isn't anymore relevant to the Zelda series than any other one-time character. Ruto, Darunia, Saria, they all have the same amount of relevance to the series as a whole as Sheik does.

 

[Hydde]

I personally think sheik is a colll character , but as a marth user, i hate that thing like nothing more in melee. The problem with her is that she have just TOO MANY options against too many characters, is just umbalanced.

She can instacombo almost everyone into that dreaded slap.... when players like marth or falco or fox (even when each of them have something broken too) need to work a lot to combo players and doesnt have the advantages she has.

For example, shheik can camp all tday long and just spot dodge... then do whatever she ewants because her grabs, he tils and the spotdodge are just insanely fast.

I would like to see her back in Brawl, but please they need to do things tougher for her. I have seen layers that are just below average, suddenly combo my marth ridiculously good because of that silly advantages she has.

And not just marth, sheik is a good all arounda character who can jkill anybody. The worst match up of sehik could be maybe falco, and the falco cannot commit errors because he will simply sdie, while sheik can afford to commit one or two and come back to kick ***.


About the argument of sheik and zelda twilight.............well,,,,,,,,,,,,, i was just thinkng about something............Mario now uses the FLUDD.... but im very sure he will almost have the cape.......... The FLUDD is from mario sunshine.... and the cape is from Mario world......... 2 totally different games. If we take in consideration this detail.... then zelda can still transform into sheik and use her twilight princess moves (if she has some)...without any problems...

in the end, the developers will make each character use the best moves they have from any of the games they appear.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

THe only person that could defeat me as Shiek WAS a Marth user

 

[Noshiee]

I personally think sheik is a colll character , but as a marth user, i hate that thing like nothing more in melee. The problem with her is that she have just TOO MANY options against too many characters, is just umbalanced.

She can instacombo almost everyone into that dreaded slap.... when players like marth or falco or fox (even when each of them have something broken too) need to work a lot to combo players and doesnt have the advantages she has.

For example, shheik can camp all tday long and just spot dodge... then do whatever she ewants because her grabs, he tils and the spotdodge are just insanely fast.

I would like to see her back in Brawl, but please they need to do things tougher for her. I have seen layers that are just below average, suddenly combo my marth ridiculously good because of that silly advantages she has.

And not just marth, sheik is a good all arounda character who can jkill anybody. The worst match up of sehik could be maybe falco, and the falco cannot commit errors because he will simply sdie, while sheik can afford to commit one or two and come back to kick ***.


About the argument of sheik and zelda twilight.............well,,,,,,,,,,,,, i was just thinkng about something............Mario now uses the FLUDD.... but im very sure he will almost have the cape.......... The FLUDD is from mario sunshine.... and the cape is from Mario world......... 2 totally different games. If we take in consideration this detail.... then zelda can still transform into sheik and use her twilight princess moves (if she has some)...without any problems...

in the end, the developers will make each character use the best moves they have from any of the games they appear.

true true true!!!

 

[Circus]

i was just thinkng about something............Mario now uses the FLUDD.... but im very sure he will almost have the cape.......... The FLUDD is from mario sunshine.... and the cape is from Mario world......... 2 totally different games. If we take in consideration this detail.... then zelda can still transform into sheik and use her twilight princess moves (if she has some)...without any problems...

Except for the fact that the Zelda from Ocarina of Time and the Zelda from Twilight Princess are literally two different people.

in the end, the developers will make each character use the best moves they have from any of the games they appear.

Yeah. I just hope they don't consider Sheik to be like that for Zelda. If they really need to have Sheik as a playable character, I'd just like them to cut her off from Zelda since they basically are two different people anyway.