why ppl dont want sheik in ssbb

[Hydde]

How come the overpowered argument is still being used? Brawl isn't Melee. I wonder if the other high or top tier characters had to face such arguments. Also, as for the "TP Zelda can't transform into Sheik" argument, it depends if Sakurai is gonna be faithful or not. I don't think it could be proven either way, which is why I don't have an actual counter argument. "I would think it's strange for such an event to happen" is something I don't see how it counts as an argument. Just because people think it would be strange doesn't mean it couldn't happen. There wasn't people who were like "WTF!" over Pokémon Trainer? Again like I said, I don't think there's solid proof either way if Sakurai will make them the same, apart, or even put Sheik in the game playable. As for the article about working on designs, that's all it said. Designs != playable.

Also, I know this argument has been countered before, but I didn't see it yet in this topic. How come what is believed to be TP Zelda transforming into Sheik such a big problem, but not Bowser transforming into Giga Bowser when he never did such a thing in his own games?



Ain't you assuming things a bit much? Sure most don't expect him to return, including those who main'ed him like me, but it doesn't mean we know if he's in the game in some kind of form or not.

Let me tell you, that the top tiers,,,and not only sheik, need some adjustements....

i have to acceot that maybe some of marth moves, like the spike, are a little cheap....and the little fox needs some nerfing here and there too becau7se he just kicks too hard ....

from all the top tiers, the ones that are balanced IMO are marth and falco. Marth because he is very vulnerable once jçyou surpass his range and very comboable. And falco...he can kick you all what he wants... but you just need 2 strong hits in the edge and that biurd is dead....so both of them have interesting weak points...

ont the other hand sheik and fox are simply godly, and even when using fox, you need to be cautious of not dying.. but with sheik.....

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Except for the fact that the Zelda from Ocarina of Time and the Zelda from Twilight Princess are literally two different people.

Yeah. I just hope they don't consider Sheik to be like that for Zelda. If they really need to have Sheik as a playable character, I'd just like them to cut her off from Zelda since they basically are two different people anyway.

All Zelda's are reincarnations of the same being

 

[Hydde]

THe only person that could defeat me as Shiek WAS a Marth user

Yeah, i have defeated lots of sheik too, but that is because i play better than those guys...even when they are almost my level too.


The problem comes when a marth faces a Sheik of equal or slightly more skill than him. Is an uphill battle for the marth in any sense.


What could have happened is that the marth was simply better than you in mindgames.


Dont get me wrong... sheik is not inmortal... but she has just too many easy ways to solve her problems, thats is unfair to some charaters----specially the ones that are not top tier.

 

[Noshiee]

Except for the fact that the Zelda from Ocarina of Time and the Zelda from Twilight Princess are literally two different people.

Yeah. I just hope they don't consider Sheik to be like that for Zelda. If they really need to have Sheik as a playable character, I'd just like them to cut her off from Zelda since they basically are two different people anyway.

But in some way, she IS Zelda, if Sakurai wanted her to be based ONLY in TP Zelda, then he sould have named Twilight Princess Zelda, but wait!...no he didnt do it.
Zelda and Sheik are exactly the same person, that was the point of her transforming into Sheik.

 

[Circus]

All Zelda's are reincarnations of the same being

With each incarnation being raised differently and being forced to overcome different obstacles. Hence, basically two different people who have the same name and happen to be fulfilling some kind of destiny.

 

[Circus]

But in some way, she IS Zelda, if Sakurai wanted her to be based ONLY in TP Zelda, then he sould have named Twilight Princess Zelda, but wait!...no he didnt do it.

. . . It's really not my style to be this blunt, but that's absolutely moronic. They didn't call Zelda in Melee "Ocarina of Time Zelda", did they?

Zelda and Sheik are exactly the same person, that was the pint of her transforming into Sheik.

The Zelda from Ocarina of Time and Sheik are the same person. Key difference.

EDIT: And sorry for the double post. I meant to go back and edit my old one, but I got excited. >—>

 

[Hydde]

All Zelda's are reincarnations of the same being

yeap...

Maybe mario could be the same mario in every game... but zelda is practically the same person in every game...just was born who knows how mnay years after/before the last one.

They ar still the same spirit/whatever you want to call it XD

.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

A determining factor would be your definition of "Same Person" is...


Body, Mind, Soul...


If I loose my memory, and my personally is shaped from that point on as the opposite as it was, having different experiences to draw up on?

If I have the same soul or mind but in a different body am I the same person?

 

[Circus]

A determining factor would be your definition of "Same Person" is...


Body, Mind, Soul...

Well, in this case, it would be a different body and arguably a different mind, right?

If I loose my memory, and my personally is shaped from that point on as the opposite as it was, having different experiences to draw up on?

If I have the same soul or mind but in a different body am I the same person?

Well, she clearly doesn't have the same mind, and she doesn't remember what her "past lives" were. Therefor she wouldn't remember her Sheikah training, correct?

 

[Drake3]

The reason Zelda's magic attacks are a different matter than Sheik is because Zelda has always been magically inclined in every game. It makes much more sense to see Zelda performing SOME type of magic that we may not have seen her use specifically than it does to see her transform into a different person that she essentially has never turned into before (what with it being a different "Zelda" in each game)

Nobody actually has a problem with Zelda using the Goddess powers do they? I'm sure the developers could have invented any number of magical spells for Zelda to have, but just so happened to have 3 perfectly recognizable ones, from an exceedingly popular game at the time, to base them off of.

 

[brawlpro]

zelda sux, why not sheik be in 24/7???

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Well, in this case, it would be a different body and arguably a different mind, right?


Well, she clearly doesn't have the same mind, and she doesn't remember what her "past lives" were. Therefor she wouldn't remember her Sheikah training, correct?

It's arguable

but (in the least) souls exist in the Zelda universe and therefore, Zelda does contain the same essence of a singular Zelda being

 

[Noshiee]

Well, in this case, it would be a different body and arguably a different mind, right?


Well, she clearly doesn't have the same mind, and she doesn't remember what her "past lives" were. Therefor she wouldn't remember her Sheikah training, correct?

How do you know she doesnt remember her pastlives, back up your facts please

 

[Noshiee]

zelda sux, why not sheik be in 24/7???

1. she is already confirmed
2. she is like a 1000 times more immportant than Sheik

 

[Circus]

It's arguable

but (in the least) souls exist in the Zelda universe and therefore, Zelda does contain the same essence of a singular Zelda being

I do agree with this. I certainly don't think that all these destiny-bound princesses are named Zelda by coincidence. There's definitely the idea of the soul in there. I just don't think that would help any physical Zelda, other than the one seen in Ocarina of Time, pull off Sheikah-style maneuvers, since they wouldn't have been taught it, and wouldn't remember it.

How do you know she doesnt remember her pastlives, back up your facts please

If she did remember her past lives, wouldn't she use that knowledge to her advantage? Wouldn't she use her Sheika-trained reflexes to further aid her again? Wouldn't she somehow acknowledge all the things she's done in the past? And on that note, wouldn't Link (as he's in the same situation with the "soul" as Zelda, if I'm not mistaken. Which I may be)?

 

[brawlpro]

1. she is already confirmed
2. she is like a 1000 times more immportant than Sheik

WHAT, zelda sux compared to sheik -.-'

according to the tier list xD~

 

[Drake3]

All Zelda's are reincarnations of the same being

A reincarnation means the soul is the same. The body, the mind, the very life is different.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

A reincarnation means the soul is the same. The body, the mind, the very life is different.

I wrote that...

I said they are the same being, not they had the same life

 

[Noshiee]

WHAT, zelda sux compared to sheik -.-'

according to the tier list xD~

every character sux compared to Sheik, 'couse he is...BROKEN, OVERPOWERED, UNBALANCED!!!

 

[Drake3]

I wrote that...

I said they are the same being, not they had the same life

Whoops <_< Thread's moving too fast. At least we're in agreement (I think?).

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Wow, this argument is still going on? This is kinda funny...

Personally, I don't think Shiek is important enough character wise to join back in with Smash Bros. Hell, TINGLE is more important than Shiek.

And I loathe Tingle character wise.

 

[SiD]

every character sux compared to Sheik, 'couse he is...BROKEN, OVERPOWERED, UNBALANCED!!!

???

All the high tiers are overpowered and unbalanced. Shiek just takes more learning of how to fight her, she is definitely less broken than, say, Marth.

 

[blueriku]

Except for the fact that the Zelda from Ocarina of Time and the Zelda from Twilight Princess are literally two different people.

Yeah. I just hope they don't consider Sheik to be like that for Zelda. If they really need to have Sheik as a playable character, I'd just like them to cut her off from Zelda since they basically are two different people anyway.

OK dude you are still not getting it, so what your trying to say is if sheik is in the game that zelda's OOT design has to also. it is just an undated look. really if you think about it over all she is from TP, but ever since OOT most of the time if you think zelda, you think sheik. they are the same person whether zelda is from wind waker, the oracle series or alttp they are they same yes it is true that sheik is from OOT but over all sheik is stuck to zelda you cant separate them that is like telling link he can use the master sword and now he has to use a fairy wand or something it just doesn't happen now im not saying that sheik exists in every game no she doesn't my point is that it does not matter zelda is going to represent zelda when you play brawl are you going to say amm man i wish they put links adventure zelda in this game no because zelda represents all zelda's so in a sense it does make sense that TP zelda from brawl can transform in to sheik because zelda is representing all zelda's

 

[The_Corax_King]

This argument that she is broken in Melee holds not water AT ALL...

CHARACTERS ARE NOT GOING TO BE THE SAME AS IN MELEE. BRAWL WILL NOT JUST BE ANOTHER MELEE.


As for the "TP Zelda does not turn into Sheik" argument...

TP Zelda also doesnt have Din's Fire or Faore's Wind as she does in Brawl...

 

[silver777]

TP Zelda also doesnt have Din's Fire or Faore's Wind as she does in Brawl...

she didn't have them in OOT in the first place. =\

 

[The_Corax_King]

So why does she have them in Brawl? I thought Sakurai was updating characters so they fit totally with their new designs... and was totally throwing away anything from previous games...

I guess that means Mario shouldn't have FLUDD unless he gets it in Galaxy...

 

[SiD]

Well obviously he has to make stuff up, Zelda never did anything except shoot light arrows, so instead of give her a bow and tell her to have fun he improvised. Same thing goes for TP Zelda and Brawl.

 

[Zone]

A determining factor would be your definition of "Same Person" is...


Body, Mind, Soul...


If I loose my memory, and my personally is shaped from that point on as the opposite as it was, having different experiences to draw up on?

If I have the same soul or mind but in a different body am I the same person?

How can you have the same Body or mind? You body decomposes, and becomes a fertilizer.
So the Body isn't the same hence the hair color change. Mind? I don't think that's exactly the same either. Because once again You raised differently you think differently. If it's the same brain magically, well... lets say some how the same exact brain is in TP Zelda. but in a New body, with all memories wiped clean. Sounds like a computer when you reformat. Take out the hardrive that's blank and put it in a new Computer. Do you consider that the same computer it was once before? I don't anyways. you don't say it's still my old computer.. just different. You say it's my new computer.

I'll have to agree with you on soul. Cuz that's what Reincarnation is all about.

Using a computer analogy probably wasn't Best example in the world. but it was the best one I could come up with in like 10 seconds.

 

[SiD]

How can you have the same Body or mind? You body decomposes, and becomes a fertilizer.
So the Body isn't the same hence the hair color change. Mind? I don't think that's exactly the same either. Because once again You raised differently you think differently. If it's the same brain magically, well... lets say some how the same exact brain is in TP Zelda. but in a New body, with all memories wiped clean. Sounds like a computer when you reformat. Take out the hardrive that's blank and put it in a new Computer. Do you consider that the same computer it was once before? I don't anyways. you don't say it's still my old computer.. just different. You say it's my new computer.

I'll have to agree with you on soul. Cuz that's what Reincarnation is all about.

Using a computer analogy probably wasn't Best example in the world. but it was the best one I could come up with in like 10 seconds.

In real life, I agree. But in a game, it really is the same Link/Zelda in every game, just reincarnated for lack of a better word.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

How can you have the same Body or mind? You body decomposes, and becomes a fertilizer.
So the Body isn't the same hence the hair color change. Mind? I don't think that's exactly the same either. Because once again You raised differently you think differently. If it's the same brain magically, well... lets say some how the same exact brain is in TP Zelda. but in a New body, with all memories wiped clean. Sounds like a computer when you reformat. Take out the hardrive that's blank and put it in a new Computer. Do you consider that the same computer it was once before? I don't anyways. you don't say it's still my old computer.. just different. You say it's my new computer.

I'll have to agree with you on soul. Cuz that's what Reincarnation is all about.

Using a computer analogy probably wasn't Best example in the world. but it was the best one I could come up with in like 10 seconds.

Same mind but different body I was thinking sci-fi or fantasy when they switch minds...

 

[Zone]

I do agree with this. I certainly don't think that all these destiny-bound princesses are named Zelda by coincidence. There's definitely the idea of the soul in there. I just don't think that would help any physical Zelda, other than the one seen in Ocarina of Time, pull off Sheikah-style maneuvers, since they wouldn't have been taught it, and wouldn't remember it.

If she did remember her past lives, wouldn't she use that knowledge to her advantage? Wouldn't she use her Sheika-trained reflexes to further aid her again? Wouldn't she somehow acknowledge all the things she's done in the past? And on that note, wouldn't Link (as he's in the same situation with the "soul" as Zelda, if I'm not mistaken. Which I may be)?

I read somewhere on wiki. Dunno if i can find the link that all of hyrule's Princesses would be named Zelda because of something that happened in the past.

Same mind but different body I was thinking sci-fi or fantasy when they switch minds...

lol Sorry. I guess you just mean since her spirit is in there. then she would behave the same or something? But still a different person growing up under different conditions.

 

[The_Corax_King]

I think you guys are getting a bit too philisophical on this topic lol...

Smash brothers is supposed to be a compilation of games across time... it would be a waste to give characters only moves that they had in their most recent games...

 

[SiD]

If she did remember her past lives, wouldn't she use that knowledge to her advantage? Wouldn't she use her Sheika-trained reflexes to further aid her again? Wouldn't she somehow acknowledge all the things she's done in the past? And on that note, wouldn't Link (as he's in the same situation with the "soul" as Zelda, if I'm not mistaken. Which I may be)?

Does Link not use the same weapon, many of the same items, and most of the same moves in every game?

And I believe the Shiekah have always been the protectors of the royal family, so she could have been taught the same things.

 

[Zone]

Can I get one thing before I'm done debating here.

Show me some internet proof that Zelda and LInk are Reincarnates. I mean I'm half agreeing with that idea because I think possibly I may have heard about that somewhere else. I just want reassurance.


Edit::: I found it nvm.

 

[SiD]

Can I get one thing before I'm done debating here.

Show me some internet proof that Zelda and LInk are Reincarnates. I mean I'm half agreeing with that idea because I think possibly I may have heard about that somewhere else. I just want reassurance.

I think the phrase "internet proof" is inherently a contradiction.

EDIT: nvm you found it

Like I said before, Link retains most moves from game to game, why shouldn't Zelda?

 

[Zone]

I think the phrase "internet proof" is inherently a contradiction.

EDIT: nvm you found it

Like I said before, Link retains most moves from game to game, why shouldn't Zelda?

True, I mean he already knew the sword spin thing.
Why can't Zelda remember her random spells/moves.

 

[The_Corax_King]

She never really had anything...

 

[Zone]

She never really had anything...

" Most iterations of Zelda are also gifted with psychic or magical powers, such as telepathy and precognition.[2] At her most powerful, Zelda can cast spells and create or undo barriers and seals; her alter egos also have abilities of their own. "


From Smash wiki.

She had something. Just not Naryu's love or Din's fire and crap.

 

[silver777]

in TP she did something other than shooting light arrows at least.

 

[The_Corax_King]

How do you give her the ability to break seals in smash? Can she attack through shields??

and how do you fight with precognition?


That description fails to give any specific examples worth mentioning as potential moves... that description just phails in general...