why ppl dont want sheik in ssbb

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Very true SiD.

And I assume it doesn't mean anything that Sakurai actually admitted that there wasn't much more to Brawl than what we saw at E3 2006? As far as characters go, obviously the FS's and AT's were hidden.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Very true SiD.

And I assume it doesn't mean anything that Sakurai actually admitted that there wasn't much more to Brawl than what we saw at E3 2006? As far as characters go, obviously the FS's and AT's were hidden.

Perhaps in the aspect of what was shown in the trailer, like the actual characters and stages. But I'm pretty sure they had some character models ready to be tweak for a final release of it. Any professional developer would.

 

[SiD]

True, but they wouldn't necessarily use all those models for full characters, since making a statinoary character model would take a very small amount of time for a professional to do.

 

[Shuma]

Key Word: Design.

This could mean a concept and it doesn't guarantee that Sheik would be in Brawl since the idea could be scrapped afterwards.

 

[blueriku]

Ah, then there's nothing to discuss, as all I was doing was defending my opinion. Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to sway you (though I do realize I was pretty. . . assertive with my posts).

Judging by the rest of your post, it sounds like we can agree that this all pretty much comes down to opinion, and how you view certain facts. Let's just agree to disagree, ya dig?

true i hear that its all good, it was just healthy debate anyways but i got carried away so i apologize for that

 

[Hard Corwen]

I honestly think eveeryone's returning...

This is like Ultimate Mortal Kombat... without the boring.

Barack and sheeva weren't in UMK3. Perhaps trilogy? although trilogy was missing new age sub zero. i think but yeah

so that means all return cept pichu, ice climbers, aaand G&W. and that'd be fine IMHO

 

[nwar45]

I think all characters should return cept for maybe pichu
pichu was probably the dumbest character they could have made
personally my two main character to use were clones
the doc and young link were my best two
and i would really hate it if they were cut from brawl

 

[Chains]

Sheik sucks the fun out of ALL games. Everyone plays as her and she's unfairly powerful I truly hope she is cut. If she is not, she's gotta be nerfed.

 

[Sinn]

Sheik sucks the fun out of ALL games. Everyone plays as her and she's unfairly powerful I truly hope she is cut. If she is not, she's gotta be nerfed.

Considering they totally nerfed the two most overpowered characters in 64 when they designed MeleeI don't think it would be a total shock for them to do the same thing ti Sheik

On a more serious note though, the very fact that Twilight Princess designers did an updated version of Sheik for the Brawl team in and of itself makes me excited. Playable, AT, whatever they decide to do with it, I'll bet it'll look awesome.

 

[hotstuff]

AT YEAH! PC nah, actually that'd be pretty cool Zelda vs Sheik, hm?

 

[Yukiwarashi]

I think all characters should return cept for maybe pichu
pichu was probably the dumbest character they could have made
personally my two main character to use were clones
the doc and young link were my best two
and i would really hate it if they were cut from brawl

Yes, because Sakurai is making the game JUST for you. In my opinion, Dr. Mario was the dumbest character they could make, but I'd hope for everyone to return just so no one loses their favourite character.

 

[Hard Corwen]

I think all characters should return cept for maybe pichu
pichu was probably the dumbest character they could have made
personally my two main character to use were clones
the doc and young link were my best two
and i would really hate it if they were cut from brawl

they most likely will be. IMO

 

[nwar45]

Yes, because Sakurai is making the game JUST for you. In my opinion, Dr. Mario was the dumbest character they could make, but I'd hope for everyone to return just so no one loses their favourite character.

i never said it should be just like i want it
just that there is no real reason to ct clones from the series
and besides the doc is the greatest

 

[Hard Corwen]

i never said it should be just like i want it
just that there is no real reason to ct clones from the series
and besides the doc is the greatest

i love doc i use him all the time. maybe its cause he's got the powers of ganon or something. i dunno. i like the over a in the air alot. but i think if they cut him out things might still turn out ok. i'm sure the new mario will the best of both worlds? we will see

 

[SiD]

obviously they are, we already know Mario at least has Doc's Fair. Doc has no reason whatsoever to return, neither does Pichu or really Young Link, although the last one is debatable.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes, and we HAVE Zelda herself, therefor I feel that the "tri-force" status belongs solely to her in this instance. Sheik, herself, as her own character with a personality and abilities, is not a tri-force character. Zelda is. If Sheik is considered important purely because of her attachment to Zelda, then that does nothing but highlight how important Zelda herself is. If this is indeed the case, then Sheik would merely be using Zelda as a crutch, and I don't believe characters should get in for that reason. Sheik, and the qualities unique to her that make her different from Zelda, are not connected to the tri-force. Honestly, think about what I'm saying here, because you may be tempted to think this is a weak point. I can assure you, it's not.

It's not "attachment", it's the fact that she IS Zelda, call it a crutch if you will, but that exact reason is why I cannot brook Sheik and Zelda being separate Characters, because what makes that persona important enough to include as opposed to say, a completely separate non-triforce character is the fact that she is an aspect of Zelda, thus making them separate characters is inconsistent with this.

Thus, this argument only holds IF they are separate characters, gameplay-wise, if they are maintained as a transformation, then since they are the same individual, a person cannot use themselves as a crutch, now can they?

Because it offered a unique gameplay mechanic—the transforming character. The creators thought they could create one unique character via Zelda's transformation into Sheik (and admittedly SOME people do use this feature in the innovative way that the creators had originally thought up), when in reality they basically made two characters who occupy the same character slot. Each without a down B move. Sheik's role in Melee, honestly, was just an example of the creators trying to be creative.

It most certainly was an attempt to be creative, now if they would balance them more (and decrease transformation time, style-branching combos FTW!) the original purpose could be achieved, instead of having two characters occupying the same character slot.

Ultimately, it was the weakness of Zelda, not the inclusion of Sheik that was the failure.

People aren't stupid (well, not all of them). They know what a poll like that would be trying to prove. Now, I could be wrong. Everyone may just answer honestly, and there may still be more votes for "I just love Sheik". But in my gut, I feel that some people would choose that option purely because that's honestly a better reason to support a character. The reason I think people would be more inclined to do that in a poll than they would just posting on the boards is because the poll would actually keep track of this. You can have 230947 people say "I only like Sheik because she's top tier", and never be able to make a conclusion from it based on all the other posts on these boards because it's so much less organized. In a poll, people know that people are REALLY going to get a specific statistic out of it. In order to sway this statistic that the whole board would surely see, I think people would be inclined to just vote for the "better" answer, rather than the more accurate one.

That's why you have a psychologist on staff to help you with the poll. You are citing this as an example of the face-value measure not ultimately being effective, so (with help) pick an option that is equally reasonable for people to pick as "I liked Sheik before I realized she was good", but effectively conveys effectively "I like Sheik because she's REALLY strong" by telling you that everyone who picked that options just uses her for that reason.

Actually, probably just somebody who did well on a college-level statistics class should be able to help you with this.

True enough, an experiment will always be more accurate with a larger sample size than a small one. However, since the sample size that I do have is the only one I have to base things on, it's the one I go by. At least until it's proven false.

In other words, your null hypothesis, however, recognize that the burden of proof is upon you, based on that limited evidence, you really should not accept that as your null hypothesis.

You make a good point that Sheik could actually have a ridiculously large fanbase, and I just don't know it. However, with that same point, you could say that Bidoof (Pokemon) has more true blue fans than Mario himself. We don't know that it doesn't. Does this justify the inclusion of a character as lame an undeserving as Bidoof? In general, I suppose this whole point I've been trying to make is rather moot (yeah, I said "rather moot". Aren't I fancy?). I'm happy to drop it.

I never said it was true, merely a hypothetical case.

Zelda herself was clearly more important, but Sheik was not. If you think that Zelda and Sheik are absolutely interchangeable (and I would have to believe you do, based on your name choice here), then what is the point of Sheik being in Brawl at all if we've already got Zelda? If they're 100% the same person, then isn't Sheik already in Brawl by association with Zelda?

No, I don't think that they are effectively interchangeable, they are the same character, but like any alter-ego, Sheik fleshes out the main character. The more interesting the alter-ego, and the more connections it hold to important events within the character's life (or Lives, or one of the character's lives as the case may be), the more it achieves this effect.

After all, what would Bruce Wayne be without Batman?

I admire your fanboyism (no really, not a joke), but OoT's "landmarkness" if you will, is subjective. It's certainly a widely held belief, but it's just that—a belief. OoT isn't, as far as relation to the game's overall plot and purpose, anymore important than Twilight Princess. Nor any other Zelda installment, for that matter.

OoT is a great game, but it's not the only one. I may be alone in this opinion, but I really think OoT now deserves to be considered "a (very) fond memory" rather than "THE Zelda game". But that's really more my opinion on the Zelda franchise as a whole than my views on Sheik in Brawl, sorry for the digression.

Important to the overall plot, no, not more then Twilight Princess, however games do not exist within a vacuum, and it's impact on the gaming world is to be considered. OoT is widely considered THE N64 game. It seamlessly brought LoZ into the 3D, and did it to wide acclaim, both by players and by critics. Rarely will you see any review equivalent to less then a 9/10.

It is one of those games that was essentially a classic, destined to be fondly remembered after almost all of it's conemptoraries had faded from memory, akin to Starcraft, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, and Final Fantasy 6.

Heck, it's already be rereleased twice.

And that's fair, but it brings me back to my point about characters like Ruto and Saria. They both had pretty significant roles in that game as well. In fact, on par with Sheik's significance if you ask me. What about Sheik, as a character, without the fact that she's technically Zelda, makes her more important than them? What about Sheik's personality or specific characteristics or impact on the franchise makes her more deserving than a character like Princess Ruto? They both only appeared in the one game, they have the same amount of real fighting experience ("none", basically), and they both help the story to unfold in the way that allows Link to defeat Ganondorf.

The fact that she IS Zelda is sort of the point, hence why I have no interest in her appearing as a solo character. That's what separates her from the others, the fact that she's Zelda's alter-ego, and thus is not only an independent character, but helps develop Zelda.

Ultimately, the inclusion will not effect me. Sheik could be in the game and I'll still buy Brawl. And love it. In fact, if Sheik is at least not attached to Zelda, I won't be bothered in the slightest. My main qualm, personally, is simply Zelda turning into Sheik. It would just not work out in my head. Giga Bowser bothers me enough, I don't need a character that I really like getting the same, drastically un-canon treatment. The rest of the points I bring up are mostly me just being defensive and argumentative. Because, I guess I find that fun. When it comes down to it, I'm just hoping for something to happen that could just as likely not.

[/end ridiculously long, unreadable wall-o-text]

Well, same here, but I would say that what WOULD bother me is Sheik NOT being attached to Zelda, because, as I pointed out, that's what propels the persona beyond the importance of say, Saria, the fact that she further develops Zelda.

As for Giga Bowser, they pulled him out of a hat anyway, but I see little problem with Bowser's FS being transformation into a bigger, meaner version of himself. I don't really think you could call him a separate character anyway, or even an alter-ego.

 

[CronoMaster]

i personally think that sheik is a great character and not including her is stupidity

First, the fact that u want her to return doesnt means it would be stupid if she doesnt, that just means that u really like her and u will cry and swear a lot if shes not there. Not including mario, THAT would be stupidity XD

But well, dont get me wrong, i like sheik, shes not my fav char, but is the one im best with, i won tournaments with her, and i still think she wouldnt come back. It was great having her in melee since the zelda characters there were from OoT, but now sheik would even look bad in the game, cause she has nothin to do with TP

Even if she is in, i wouldnt use her, i like switching my mains from game to game

 

[Drake3]

the fact that she further develops Zelda.

So you keep saying that Sheik develops Zelda's character, because she's an "interesting alter-ego", but you never mention how.

 

[Talendime]

omg.. so many people just don't understand.

The Zelda in Melee is the Zelda from Ocarina of Time. The Zelda in Brawl is the Zelda from Twilight Princess.

1.These two Zeldas are two completely different people of completely different eras.
2.The Sheikah culture is not related to the setting, story, or any of the characters from Twilight Princess.
3.The Zelda from Twilight Princess made no attempt, at any time, to put on a tight costume and call herself Sheik during the game (There is, however, that big black cloak she wears- maybe this can be her new transformation: Cloaked Zelda).

 

[SiD]

omg.. so many people just don't understand.

The Zelda in Melee is the Zelda from Ocarina of Time. The Zelda in Brawl is the Zelda from Twilight Princess.

1.These two Zeldas are two completely different people of completely different eras.
2.The Sheikah culture is not related to the setting, story, or any of the characters from Twilight Princess.
3.The Zelda from Twilight Princess made no attempt, at any time, to put on a tight costume and call herself Sheik during the game (There is, however, that big black cloak she wears- maybe this can be her new transformation: Cloaked Zelda).

1) They are all Zelda, this has been explained earlier in the thread.
2) There is a Sheikah symbol on Zelda's cloak.
3) So what? Brawl is a game, it doesn't need to follow the plot from whatever game the aesetics are coming from. Did Zelda ever use Din's Fire? No, but she had it in Melee and it's returning in Brawl.

So get over that the way Zelda looks may not be able to turn into sheik (I say may because she transformed with the power of the Triforce of Wisdom, which she still has), and realize that Brawl is just a game. So if transforming into sheik is a fun idea, which it is, she'll most likely be put in the game.