why ppl dont want sheik in ssbb

[Lok]

Yeah..... why Impa. She only appeared for what, 2 minutes in the whole sieries? I'd rather have there be to Zelda's then someone who appeared for 2 minutes in one game of an entire sieries. At least Shiek did more than just take you out of a castle.

 

[blueriku]

yea impa is more of a supporting character but i guess it would be kinda cool, but sadly it will never happen

 

[tafutureboy]

Impa should replace shiek...

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

F-ck Impa.

 

[Lok]

Impa should replace shiek...

Bwahahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaaaaaa...... Impa replace Shiek..... that's a good one. Maybe she could be an AT but an actual CHARACTOR, well, that's just abusred, all we know about her is she's Shiekaih, and she can teleport, but thats STILL not enough to make a moveset with a Final Smash. In fact, do we know enough about Shiek to make a Final Smash?

 

[Circus]

no i dont mean to twist your words around but the main point is that tp zelda turning to
sheik would not be a big deal

Well then, I guess we just disagree here.

i didnt mean every single person think that but most ppl that played OOT does

"Most people" meaning whom? As adumbrodeus helpfully pointed out to me, it's bad to make up sweeping "facts" about people. You have no basis for that claim.

i know that in fact i probably know a lot more about zelda than you do

My, my, aren't we high and mighty? I suppose it's probably true though.

when i said that i meant it as a representation of zelda in general i know zelda and link are not the same but the over all character that they represent is in a genral term

Yeah, so like I said, wouldn't it make more sense to give Zelda more general attacks to represent all the Zelda's as magicians, since that's basically Zelda's only common characteristic throughout every game, rather than giving her a move that is specific to just one game in the franchise?

that was just an example and also he does not use the master sword in link awakening, OOS, OOA, four sword, four sword adventures and the mininsh cap, majoras mask and even in LOZ and AOL soyea...he doesnt use the master sword in every game. although using the orcarina would of been a better example.

****, my bad. I think I just got Zelda-served.

no, but zelda is zelda if sakurai didnt want to have zelda represent all zeldas then he would of made it that zelda used only tp attcaks like light arrows and light magic but instead she use OOT magic

I've already addressed this issue. It is NOT actually confirmed that she uses any OoT magic at all. And for all we know, she could have Light Arrows. We don't know that she uses Din's Fire, we've just seen her using a fire-based attack. We haven't seen her use Farore's Wind, we've just seen her teleport in a cutscene. And we haven't seen anything similar to Nayru's Love yet at all.

Besides, I've ALSO pointed out how the magic issue is different from the Sheik issue. It's fine for Zelda to keep magic attacks because she is always a magician. She is always, in some way, magically inclined (as far as I know). She only becomes Sheik once. They do not have the same "out of character" problem.

and might even turn into sheik.

"Might even turn into Sheik". You can't use the fact that she might do something as a good reason for her to do that thing.

thats not in tp so why would she have those move if zelda is sapposed to represent TP zelda ?

See above. Also, here's a question for you: If they weren't going to focus more on TP, why give both Link and Zelda their TP costumes? Yes, I know that the TP looks are most recent, but if Sakurai wanted them to represent all of their reincarnations, why not invent new, more general looks for them? They'd still have new, updated looks, they just wouldn't be ripped from a specific installment. So, why'd he do it?

not really she can have a lot of mixed attacks that other zeldas had

Such as?

that does not mean one bit that her attacks need to be generic. so i dont think i contradicted myself she can have a lot of different zelda's traits and attacks.

Well, I think you did. And I will continue to think so until you give me a decent reason not to.

actually sheik's personality is not that different from zelda herself the only main difference in personality is that sheik is very distant and never get close to anyone, but zelda does get close to link and sheik (since she is zelda) can use the triforce and has in the game.

Well, I guess this comes down to taste. To me, that one little character difference isn't enough to make me like Sheik as a character. I like Zelda, but if the only difference in their personalities is that Sheik is more introverted, then she's not a unique enough character to warrent my attention. Sheik, as a character, doesn't have any substance to me.

 

[smash_fo_life]

i have nothin against shiek

 

[axemangx]

I still am confused why this thread is mostly no hate at all.

They just made a rumor that Shiek might not be in, for TP reasons, because of Zelda being in her "Twilight Princess" look. Doesnt mean Shiek wont be in it, just because of a style from the latest game. If you guys are going to talk about Shiek, just make a dang official topic >_>

 

[SiD]

I posted this last page, but apparently went unnoticed thanks to blueriku's three megaposts

I admire your fanboyism (no really, not a joke), but OoT's "landmarkness" if you will, is subjective. It's certainly a widely held belief, but it's just that—a belief. OoT isn't, as far as relation to the game's overall plot and purpose, anymore important than Twilight Princess. Nor any other Zelda installment, for that matter.

OoT is a great game, but it's not the only one. I may be alone in this opinion, but I really think OoT now deserves to be considered "a (very) fond memory" rather than "THE Zelda game". But that's really more my opinion on the Zelda franchise as a whole than my views on Sheik in Brawl, sorry for the digression.

Actually, it is more important. Even besides the fact that it is widely considered the best transition to 3D ever and the basis of 3D adventure games today, it is much more important story wise.

Why you ask? Because chronologically, it takes place before any of the other games. It's true. Most of the Zelda games take place in one cohesive ongoing storyline, with many years inbetween. One theory is that the timeline splits at some point, because of certain discrepancies, but if you search the internet you can find out that OoT is the first. And you probably already know that TP takes place X years later. WW takes place I think around 100 years after OoT. It's all relative to that one game.

I believe it says in WW that the Hero of time is always reincarnated when he is needed. Therefore, it is safe to assume the same about Zelda. So, they may be different people in the sense they have lived different lives, but spiritually they are all the same Zelda, as predetermined by destiny.


And, Sheik is connected to the triforce as much as Zelda is. Why? Because she can only transform throught the power of the triforce of wisdom. They may be the same person, but it's not just a cosmetic change. They have different strengths, different abilities. In order to fully represent Zelda, you need to have sheik in as well.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I posted this last page, but apparently went unnoticed thanks to blueriku's three megaposts




Actually, it is more important. Even besides the fact that it is widely considered the best transition to 3D ever and the basis of 3D adventure games today, it is much more important story wise.

Why you ask? Because chronologically, it takes place before any of the other games. It's true. Most of the Zelda games take place in one cohesive ongoing storyline, with many years inbetween. One theory is that the timeline splits at some point, because of certain discrepancies, but if you search the internet you can find out that OoT is the first. And you probably already know that TP takes place X years later. WW takes place I think around 100 years after OoT. It's all relative to that one game.

I believe it says in WW that the Hero of time is always reincarnated when he is needed. Therefore, it is safe to assume the same about Zelda. So, they may be different people in the sense they have lived different lives, but spiritually they are all the same Zelda, as predetermined by destiny.


And, Sheik is connected to the triforce as much as Zelda is. Why? Because she can only transform throught the power of the triforce of wisdom. They may be the same person, but it's not just a cosmetic change. They have different strengths, different abilities. In order to fully represent Zelda, you need to have sheik in as well.

I agree with that completely

 

[blueriku]

Well then, I guess we just disagree here.

ok we all have different opinions right ? im not out to change yours

"Most people" meaning whom? As adumbrodeus helpfully pointed out to me, it's bad to make up sweeping "facts" about people. You have no basis for that claim.

ok ill give you that but my assumption was off of these boards which i clearly should off not done but i still stand by that opinion.

My, my, aren't we high and mighty? I suppose it's probably true though.

sorry i did not mean to be like that.

Yeah, so like I said, wouldn't it make more sense to give Zelda more general attacks to represent all the Zelda's as magicians, since that's basically Zelda's only common characteristic throughout every game, rather than giving her a move that is specific to just one game in the franchise?

yea i guess that would make more sense i see your logic not many zeldas have a specific attacks the only one i can think of is the light arrow attack

****, my bad. I think I just got Zelda-served.

lol

I've already addressed this issue. It is NOT actually confirmed that she uses any OoT magic at all. And for all we know, she could have Light Arrows. We don't know that she uses Din's Fire, we've just seen her using a fire-based attack. We haven't seen her use Farore's Wind, we've just seen her teleport in a cutscene. And we haven't seen anything similar to Nayru's Love yet at all.

we thoughs are attacks that look strikingly simlar attacks for melee

Besides, I've ALSO pointed out how the magic issue is different from the Sheik issue. It's fine for Zelda to keep magic attacks because she is always a magician. She is always, in some way, magically inclined (as far as I know). She only becomes Sheik once. They do not have the same "out of character" problem.

umm thier is tetra but that ww hmm point taken

"Might even turn into Sheik". You can't use the fact that she might do something as a good reason for her to do that thing.

true

See above. Also, here's a question for you: If they weren't going to focus more on TP, why give both Link and Zelda their TP costumes? Yes, I know that the TP looks are most recent, but if Sakurai wanted them to represent all of their reincarnations, why not invent new, more general looks for them? They'd still have new, updated looks, they just wouldn't be ripped from a specific installment. So, why'd he do it?

i see your point, but the TP zelda (even though is a person from other zeldas and is in her own game) actually does represent other zeldas like her brown hair thats from adventure of link and her pendants thats also old school as well as her over all look is a hardcore updated OOT looks so most of the work is already done, but still yea i see your point i guess i would have no choice but to agree.

Such as?

umm light arrow (obvious duh) TP she can use a sword in both WW and OOT she can transform, umm barriers and lets see she also has different forms of light magic.

Well, I think you did. And I will continue to think so until you give me a decent reason not to.

i still stand by want i said

Well, I guess this comes down to taste. To me, that one little character difference isn't enough to make me like Sheik as a character. I like Zelda, but if the only difference in their personalities is that Sheik is more introverted, then she's not a unique enough character to warrent my attention. Sheik, as a character, doesn't have any substance to me.

yea this is true even one can like the same thing and every one is different so i agree

 

[Drake3]

I've already addressed this issue. It is NOT actually confirmed that she uses any OoT magic at all. And for all we know, she could have Light Arrows. We don't know that she uses Din's Fire, we've just seen her using a fire-based attack. We haven't seen her use Farore's Wind, we've just seen her teleport in a cutscene. And we haven't seen anything similar to Nayru's Love yet at all.

I'm just going to reinforce this fact. Sakurai has yet to reveal any of Zelda's moves, but we have seen a few of them in movies. However, this does not dub them as OoT magic. For all we know it could be:

Up+B- Teleport
Side+B- Fireball
B- Shine: Part 2: The Sequel (Or Mirror/Crystal/Shard whatever~)

And they're not even OoT magic because none of them do anything like Link's did.

 

[Circus]

I posted this last page, but apparently went unnoticed thanks to blueriku's three megaposts

Ah, my apologies, friend. Must've scrolled right past it.

Actually, it is more important. Even besides the fact that it is widely considered the best transition to 3D ever and the basis of 3D adventure games today, it is much more important story wise.

Why you ask? Because chronologically, it takes place before any of the other games. It's true. Most of the Zelda games take place in one cohesive ongoing storyline, with many years inbetween. One theory is that the timeline splits at some point, because of certain discrepancies, but if you search the internet you can find out that OoT is the first. And you probably already know that TP takes place X years later. WW takes place I think around 100 years after OoT. It's all relative to that one game.

Somewhere in the back of my mind, I knew this, but I don't give it that much weight. This again visits the issue of OoT being important, not Sheik specifically. I still haven't been given what I believe to be a decent reason for Sheik to be important enough for Brawl inclusion but not Princess Ruto. Yes, Zelda herself is important, but we have her. I see nothing that Sheik herself would offer in the way of importance.

I believe it says in WW that the Hero of time is always reincarnated when he is needed. Therefore, it is safe to assume the same about Zelda. So, they may be different people in the sense they have lived different lives, but spiritually they are all the same Zelda, as predetermined by destiny.

Sure, but the question is, does each Zelda remember the Sheikah training that the "first" Zelda was taught? The answer seems to be no, as no of them have transformed into Sheik since.

And, Sheik is connected to the triforce as much as Zelda is. Why? Because she can only transform throught the power of the triforce of wisdom. They may be the same person, but it's not just a cosmetic change. They have different strengths, different abilities.

I do not recall this, but I'll take your word for it because I doubt you'd make something like that up.

In order to fully represent Zelda, you need to have sheik in as well.

I disagree, but I think that comes down to complete opinion. So, whatev. That's fair.

 

[tafutureboy]

Bwahahaha hahaha hahaha hahahaaaaaa...... Impa replace Shiek..... that's a good one. Maybe she could be an AT but an actual CHARACTOR, well, that's just abusred, all we know about her is she's Shiekaih, and she can teleport, but thats STILL not enough to make a moveset with a Final Smash. In fact, do we know enough about Shiek to make a Final Smash?

ok, everyone is making huge guesses as who will be in, who will be an AT blah blah blah
i dont want shiek to return....there i said it....but Impa was a lot cooler in OoT
wait, an AT should be the sages from OoT
Impa, Princess ruta, etc...

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

ok, everyone is making huge guesses as who will be in, who will be an AT blah blah blah
i dont want shiek to return....there i said it....but Impa was a lot cooler in OoT
wait, an AT should be the sages from OoT
Impa, Princess ruta, etc...

Impa was horrendously ugly in OoT

 

[Circus]

ok we all have different opinions right ? im not out to change yours

Ah, then there's nothing to discuss, as all I was doing was defending my opinion. Sorry if it sounded like I was trying to sway you (though I do realize I was pretty. . . assertive with my posts).

Judging by the rest of your post, it sounds like we can agree that this all pretty much comes down to opinion, and how you view certain facts. Let's just agree to disagree, ya dig?

 

[SiD]

Well to be honest, this whole discussion about whether or not it's the same Zelda and blah blah blah is irrelevant. Why? Because it's a game. This is not canon to the Zelda series, it is just a game. Is being able to turn into another character a cool mechanic in a game? Yes. That's all that should matter. It only takes one move away from Zelda, the Down B, and she gets a whole other moveset. This is an awesome mechanic for a game. Whether it makes sense storywise doesn't matter in the slightest, because it's just a game.

 

[Circus]

Well to be honest, this whole discussion about whether or not it's the same Zelda and blah blah blah is irrelevant. Why? Because it's a game. This is not canon to the Zelda series, it is just a game. Is being able to turn into another character a cool mechanic in a game? Yes. That's all that should matter. It only takes one move away from Zelda, the Down B, and she gets a whole other moveset. This is an awesome mechanic for a game. Whether it makes sense storywise doesn't matter in the slightest, because it's just a game.

This may very well be Sakurai's mindset. I do see the logic.

. . . It would still bother me. O_<
But I guess that's more just me being picky.

 

[SiD]

Alright then, we all agree on some things, agree to disagree on others, I think we can call this discussion done.

 

[Drake3]

Well to be honest, this whole discussion about whether or not it's the same Zelda and blah blah blah is irrelevant. Why? Because it's a game. This is not canon to the Zelda series, it is just a game. Is being able to turn into another character a cool mechanic in a game? Yes. That's all that should matter. It only takes one move away from Zelda, the Down B, and she gets a whole other moveset. This is an awesome mechanic for a game. Whether it makes sense storywise doesn't matter in the slightest, because it's just a game.

So long as Zelda is improved. It's hard being a slow, light character.

 

[hotstuff]

I say altern costumes will play a bigger role and an ACostume for TP Zelda is OoT Zelda with a Sheik ability...probably not HAHA!
Sheik is now Sexy Suit Samus!/Snake

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I say altern costumes will play a bigger role and an ACostume for TP Zelda is OoT Zelda with a Sheik ability...probably not HAHA!
Sheik is now Sexy Suit Samus!/Snake

Zsamus is not "sexy" and no, Shiek was not replaced by them

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

I guess SiD could be right about the whole "it's just a fighting game, cool-ness could be more important than storyline," but I wouldn't rule out that Sakurai is going game specific. Look at the Gale Boomerang. Although you could compete the Gale Boomerang with Mario's FLUDD.......it's a tricky argument. It depends on what Sakurai feels like doing, and what he think fits better.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Shiek's already been confirmed so I dunno what there is to debate about.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

Shiek's already been confirmed so I dunno what there is to debate about.

Did I miss something, or are you referring to that GoNintendo article about the skin designs for Shiek and Ganondorf? If it's the latter, you haven't been paying attention, and if the former, than you're paying more attention than me.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Did I miss something, or are you referring to that GoNintendo article about the skin designs for Shiek and Ganondorf? If it's the latter, you haven't been paying attention, and if the former, than you're paying more attention than me.

I have been paying attention. All I see is people constantly saying Shiek won't be in Brawl because Zelda is supposedly from TP. I mean, really, it must be impossible for Sakurai to come up with an original design, how dare he do to Shiek what he did with Pit and the Ice Climbers!

 

[SiD]

No she hasn't, there has only been some possibly credible article about a model done for her, that does not mean it was used even if it were true.


Also, Kabyk, think about how some if not most of the characters had moves either made up or based on attacks from different games. Mario has his fireballs from most games, tornado that's out of the blue almost, cape from World, and Fludd from Sunshine. G&W has moves from all over the place. I seriously doubt any of this is based on story, just based on character, pulling from all their games.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

No she hasn't, there has only been some possibly credible article about a model done for her, that does not mean it was used even if it were true.

I highly doubt Sakurai would go through so much work to make Shiek look perfect in the game if she wasn't playable. And that article was 100% legit either you like it or not. Shiek is going to be in Brawl, no matter if he feels out of play to you or not.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

No she hasn't, there has only been some possibly credible article about a model done for her, that does not mean it was used even if it were true.


Also, Kabyk, think about how some if not most of the characters had moves either made up or based on attacks from different games. Mario has his fireballs from most games, tornado that's out of the blue almost, cape from World, and Fludd from Sunshine. G&W has moves from all over the place. I seriously doubt any of this is based on story, just based on character, pulling from all their games.

Granted that a bunch of the characters are universal, but Link is game-specific, except for the boomerang in Melee. I mean, it would've been foolish to remove it, because it is original and awesome and already implemented.

I'm just saying that it will be what Sakurai decides, he can call whomever game specific and whomever universal.

 

[SiD]

I highly doubt Sakurai would go through so much work to make Shiek look perfect in the game if she wasn't playable. And that article was 100% legit either you like it or not. Shiek is going to be in Brawl, no matter if he feels out of play to you or not.

Oh yeah, because you somehow know that article wasn't mistaken. If you'd payed any attention at all, I think Sheik should/will be in Brawl. But saying she's confrimed is incorrect, and you are basing facts on your own assumptions about this article and Sakurai.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Oh yeah, because you somehow know that article wasn't mistaken. If you'd payed any attention at all, I think Sheik should/will be in Brawl. But saying she's confrimed is incorrect, and you are basing facts on your own assumptions about this article and Sakurai.

Uh, no, I'm not assuming anything. Gameinformer is a very reliable source. Saying they would make up something like that would be completely ludicrous. They wouldn't do that, they never have unless they decided to do an April's Fools joke. Aonuma blatantly said he made designs for Link, Shiek, and Ganondorf for Brawl, so Shiek WILL return in Brawl.

 

[SiD]

Uh, no, I'm not assuming anything. Gameinformer is a very reliable source. Saying they would make up something like that would be completely ludicrous. They wouldn't do that, they never have unless they decided to do an April's Fools joke. Aonuma blatantly said he made designs for Link, Shiek, and Ganondorf for Brawl, so Shiek WILL return in Brawl.

If you would read my post, I said they may have been mistaken. And I also said that even if it is true, it means nothing. Making a model for a character takes minimal work, it's implementing them into the game that's the hard part. Therefore, the article proves nothing, legit or not.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

OK, the "Aonuma created designs for Shiek and G-dorf for Brawl" was BEFORE Sakurai joined development for Brawl. Why does that not mean anything to you?
If I need to spell it out, please say so.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

OK, the "Aonuma created designs for Shiek and G-dorf for Brawl" was BEFORE Sakurai joined development for Brawl. Why does that not mean anything to you?
If I need to spell it out, please say so.

Nothing in that interview said that those designs were created before Sakurai joined the development team. And even if it did, it doesn't matter. Sakurai has those designs and is tweaking them to make them fit in the Brawl environment, he wouldn't even have them if they weren't going to be in Brawl.

 

[silver777]

he can be an AT you know.

 

[SiD]

Ok Kabyk, spell it out for him.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

he can be an AT you know.

I doubt it.

 

[Kabyk-Greenmyst]

SiD, he didn't need it spelled out, he understands, but doesn't fully comprehend.

Sakurai never said he kept those designs for Brawl, although he probably did JUST IN CASE he decided to bring them back. I mean, he only had like 5 characters with movesets by the time E3 2006 trailer came out, so he probably didn't know yet if he was putting Shiek and G-dorf in Brawl or not.

And it DOES matter that it was before Sakurai joined the team, because Sakurai himself said Brawl was going to be just a revised Melee-- a "Melee 2.0" if you will, if Sakurai wasn't on board. This means they would NEED designs, because Melee had Shiek and G-dorf, so Melee 2.0 would. And by Melee 2.0, that means they were not going to change the characters that were already in, just add more stuff.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

Sakurai never said he kept those designs for Brawl, although he probably did JUST IN CASE he decided to bring them back.

Sakurai didn't say it, but Aonuma did, I'll quote:

"Actually, my designers did work on the designs for Sheik and Link and Ganondorf. So they submitted the initial designs, and so it would fit in the Smash Bros. Brawl environment, they’ve had to tweak some of the designs. But Sakurai has brought those altered designs to NCL."

That quote literally suggests that Aonuma submitted his designs to the development team and to Sakurai, as he handled the designs according to that quote alone. So yes, Sakurai did oversee it and most likely submitted his own ideas, especially on Shiek's design.

I mean, he only had like 5 characters with movesets by the time E3 2006 trailer came out, so he probably didn't know yet if he was putting Shiek and G-dorf in Brawl or not.

No, I'm sure Sakurai created some other characters for the game and has the roster planned out with some changes at the end. Just because only a small amount of the roster was shown at the E3 trailer, it doesn't mean that's all Sakurai created then. He was only giving us a preview of what to expect from Brawl, that's all. He could've easily had, say, twenty more (although that's a bit of a stretch, obviously) characters in planning and even had their models and movesets perfectly working in Brawl with just some tweaks need to be fixed upon.

And it DOES matter that it was before Sakurai joined the team, because Sakurai himself said Brawl was going to be just a revised Melee-- a "Melee 2.0" if you will, if Sakurai wasn't on board.

Well yeah, most likely, it would be. Sakurai brings a unique spin to his games, of course it wouldn't be a very good sequel for Brawl if he wasn't on the development team.

This means they would NEED designs, because Melee had Shiek and G-dorf, so Melee 2.0 would. And by Melee 2.0, that means they were not going to change the characters that were already in, just add more stuff.

Well, obviously. But the article never suggested when Aonuma turned in the designs, so it's completely ludicrous to assume he turned them in before Sakurai was on the development team for Brawl. The fact that Sakurai actually has altered Shiek's design as stated in the interview, however, suggests he's actually putting some effort for Shiek to be in Brawl. Blatantly meaning Sakurai isn't going to make Shiek look like some generic assist trophy that doesn't need much of a design change from the original source.

 

[SiD]

If you would read my post, I said they may have been mistaken. And I also said that even if it is true, it means nothing. Making a model for a character takes minimal work, it's implementing them into the game that's the hard part. Therefore, the article proves nothing, legit or not.

Nuff said.